Universal health care

>universal health care
>having to pay for health insurance for obese fucks who put no effort into improving their own health
>having to pay health insurance for lazy slobs

Really turns you away from the idea

Other urls found in this thread:

firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/07/most-cancer-survival-rates-in-usa-better-than-europe-and-canada
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1774819/
forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2013/10/01/obamacare-enriches-only-the-health-insurance-giants-and-their-shareholders/
amsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/CaseForUHC.pdf
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

Theoretically a universal healthcare system gives the government the moral and legal authority to influence people's behavior to increase public health (taxing fast food, sterilizing people genetic diseases, etc.). If this was the case I could support it.

However what typically happens is it gets run shitty and is open to widespread abuse.

I wish they would have a total free market for healthcare and then just have a baseline healthcare package provided by the government for if you break your leg or get cancer or something. No reason that stuff like blood tests have to be rationed.

t. Canadian

Government sponsored fatty hunts is obviously the solution

>taxing fast food
There's literally nothing wrong with fast food. They should only ban overweight people from eating it.

Subsidized gym memberships.

Why don't conservatives understand the words "it saves money overall"?

>paying for others' healthcare
It saves money overall.

>raising the minimum wage
It saves money overall.

>paying for birth control, abortions, and other family planning products and services
It saves money overall.

Do you not want more money or something?

>or get cancer or something
usually brought on by poor health choices, but I get what you are saying.

My feeling has always been
type 1 diabetus, shut up and take my money
type 2 diabetus, run you fat fuck run.

Planet fitness is 10 bucks a month. No fatty lacks access to a gym. Running is free.

>being this communist
It doesn't save my money faggot, why should I pay so a retarded lard lad can save money overall.

>It doesn't save my money faggot
Yeah it does.

An argument that shows how profoundly stupid Americans are, due to their incapacity of understanding something more complex than the most dumbed down talking point.
Right, pay 10x of what you could have paid for treating deceases in their early stages, when these people get to hospitals in chronic or terminal condition.

Prove it, if you can then I will change my mind, but I dont see how me paying more tax and still using healthcare the same amount (pretty much never) saves me money. I haven't gotten seriously sick or injured in like 8 yrs.

Every socialized healthcare system in the world is millions even billions in the hole.

Having to pay for your own healthcare saves money because you have to take responsibility for your own health. Forcing you to be proactive. Why put down the fork if I can go get my triple bypass for free?

the main reason i dont want universal healthcare is because i would have to subsizide all the obese inbred wastes of humanity that make up the midwest and south of this country.

Why hasn't it so far? Obamacare is expensive as fuck, and the fed is even kicking in big time for poor people.

who the fuck do you think pays for the medical care that uninsured people get anyway you dipshit.

You switched the US and Europe there buddy.
It's in the US that cancer gets treated earlier.

firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/07/most-cancer-survival-rates-in-usa-better-than-europe-and-canada
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1774819/

It comes down to if you want to live in a healthy community or, get anally ravaged when you find out you have Huntington's.

>m-mu-muh fat people shouldnt get medicine
Everyone deserves well-being.
If you're hung up on them being fat, it gives them no excuse to be fat.

Health insurance is literally cheaper the more people who buy into it, brainlet.

America pays more than any other first world country for healthcare.

Is this what Bernie told you? Do you know how much a trip to the ER costs?

If they don't have insurance, they pay for the treatment
health insurance isn't the same as universal healthcare lmao

So you would rather people keep going to the ER, costing the tax payers billions, instead of paying a fraction of the cost for preventative medicine? Real smart.

America is one of the fattest nation's after all.

>everyone deserves wellbeing
Why?

And so even with lower costs, all the socialized healthcare systems are still billions in the hole.

>he thinks the uninsured actually pay for the medical care they receive

what the fuck are you even talking about you retard? the ER trip is extremely expensive and taxpayers have to cover the cost of that when uninsured people go there.

>health insurance isn't the same as universal healthcare lmao
What do you think the meaningful difference is here?

If we stopped giving money to the uninsured or to those who didn’t pay (except for those with a genuine need, e.g.: disabled and cannot work, children, etc.) it would save me even more money than implementing a government rationed healthcare Ponzi scheme.

I would rather private hospitals be allowed to refuse service.

There were many charity hospitals before the 1960s.

But much better off economically than America's complete lack of healthcare.

>I would rather private hospitals be allowed to refuse service.
And you think having a sick, injured, and angry population is good for the economy because...?

Lol my god you americans are retarted

No money no ER
The problem is that there are people abusing the system by getting free gibs: in your example the people going to the ER. Your solution is even more gibs? Fuck that.

>The problem is that there are people abusing the system by getting free gibs: in your example the people going to the ER. Your solution is even more gibs? Fuck that.
See: Yet again, conservatives fail to understand the words "It saves money overall."

>tfw the people who take from me the most with handouts and health insurance are midwesterners and southerners

they all need to be exterminated

The people too dumb to have a job and thus healthcare are useful to society how? especially with automation coming.

If they don't pay for it, why would anyone ever get health insurance?
Health insurance lets you choose you own plan and pay how much you can afford, and the cost depends on the level of treatment you receive. Universal healthcare means everyone pays more taxes and gets any healthcare they need for free. So it moves healthcare costs from an individual paying for however much they need to a collective where everyone pays the same amount no matter whether they are a super Veeky Forums and healthy guy or an obese whale with diabetes and 10 other preventable diseases. With health insurance, guy number 1 pays 10 dollars each yr because he doesn't use much healthcare, and guy number 2 pays 50 dollars because he uses a 10x the healthcare services. With universal care, they both pay 30 dollars each year, even though guy number 2 uses 5 times the healthcare of guy 1

Sure, the economy in Europe is booming.

kys yuropoor lib. Your """country""" will never be relevant

Not per capita.

>Health insurance lets you choose you own plan and pay how much you can afford, and the cost depends on the level of treatment you receive. Universal healthcare means everyone pays more taxes and gets any healthcare they need for free
That's only one model of UHC. There are many, including universal insurance.

>The people too dumb to have a job and thus healthcare are useful to society how? especially with automation coming.
Because they pay taxes and contribute to the economy? Again conservatives fail to understand "it saves money overall."

In terms of healthcare expenditures? Yeah, they're blowing the US the fuck out.

See my response

just saying ''it saves money overwall'' doesnt make it true
provide facts retard
and before you go out saying it im not american

They wouldn't be apart of the population if they are dead now would they.

Grocery stores and restaurants are private, so where is the starving and angry population...?

You'd be paying less money by paying taxes than if you pay for private insurance.
Obamacare is not universal healthcare, it's corporate welfare for private insurance fat cats.
forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2013/10/01/obamacare-enriches-only-the-health-insurance-giants-and-their-shareholders/

>universal insurance
So obamacare? Because that worked so well lol. All that does is let private companies abuse people who are FORCED to buy from them, and it eliminates competition, making the price higher than it was to start with.

Wait, clothing stores are private too. Where is the naked and angry population????

Let's end this once and for all. If you need healthcare you have shitty genes. Whether your stupid and got in an accident or a fat fuck doesn't matter. You should die and not reproduce. Fucking faggots don't understand this real world shit.

So you think reducing the workforce is a good thing because...?
And you think letting millions die who would otherwise be in the workforce and contributing to the economy is good for the economy because...?
>healthcare is the same as food and clothes
Why are conservatives such brainlets?
>So obamacare? Because that worked so well lol.
This but unironically. Obamacare has been a huge success.

Many of the major insurance carriers already do this.

You retards should use actual resources to argue your points instead of
>ree this looks like communism to me
or
>ree its just better okay

amsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/CaseForUHC.pdf

looks like a good article for outlining the critical points and and doesn't delve deeply into the specifics

>Why are conservatives such brainlets?
LMAO so where is your argument? Let me guess, you think it's too expensive?

Perhaps we should take a look at Venezuela's elite food market?

>obamacare was a success
you are not american, are you?

You know that we subsidize the shit out of farmers, right? Why are you not complaining about farmers getting free shit?

>pay more
>but call it savings

The fact that they can't pay for their healthcare means that what they contribute to society is less valuable than what society would have to pay to keep them. Thus by paying for downie's healthcare society would be losing money.

I would pay less for insurance in the US than what I currently pay as taxes for healthcare here in France.

because without farmers what do we eat?

I am American. Obamacare was by no means perfect but it has largely achieved its goals.

See this? This is a perfect example. Conservatives literally can't understand the words "it saves money overall."

>Why are you not complaining about farmers getting free shit?
Because we're talking about healthcare. Corn subsidies have ruined gasoline for the last decade.

So where is your argument?

I do, they shouldn't. We shouldn't allow patents on genetic material either.

>being more concerned with the intention of a policy (saving money overall) than its actual real-life effect
Demokeks when will they learn

No you wouldn't, you'd be indebted to the insurance companies like many burgers.
Farming is subsidized so we don't rely on foreign food imports and become reliant on other countries for food in case we get embargoed.
The downside is one effect of the subsidies has been excess corn which is why fructose corn syrup is everywhere nowadays.

i make 45k a year
i currently work for a company that doesnt offer healthcare
private non ACA health plans are about 550 a month for me
ACA runs me about 375 a month.
i absolutely cannot afford 375 a month
because i cannot afford health insurance, what sense does it make to then charge me a penalty of 2% of my income?
this only leads to people lying about health insurance on their tax return and the irs serving them additional penalties on top of the original fine

MORE MONEY OVERALL

>The fact that they can't pay for their healthcare means that what they contribute to society is less valuable than what society would have to pay to keep them.
Can you cite some rigorous economic analysis on that? Because every country with UHC blows the US the fuck out on healthcare savings.

If you can't grow your own food why do you deserve to eat?

>Because we're talking about healthcare. Corn subsidies have ruined gasoline for the last decade.
But you made the comparison to food in the first place... so where is your argument?

Patents cannot be granted on genetic material that isn't new.

>angry because healthcare isnt free

>literally entire thread is conservatives bitching about the intention of the policy
Again, the real life effect is that it saves money overall.

Your anecdote is not data.

i deserve to eat because of the service i am offering society. the service i offer society gives me privilege in the form of money
i get privilege according to how much i offer society, or at least how much society values the service even if its a shit service.
i then use that privilege that i have earned to buy food that others offer to society.
they then have privilege granted to them in the form of money, to do with as they please.

its fundamentally the same as when people just traded goods.

>so where is your argument?
Is your IQ in the double digits by chance? You were provided two private markets that successfully supply society with goods/services. Why should healthcare be any different?

Because we are all humans trying to do the best we can in a shitty life that is already determined from the beginning. Everyone deserves well-being. Should you act on that conclusion is a completely different question.

America needs a fat tax then I'll be fine with universal health care.

absolutely not.
i want healthcare laws to go away so i can afford health insurance for when im older.
right now i pay out of pocket because out of pocket is infinitely cheaper than buying insurance.

my anecdote?
the fact that people who cannot afford health insurance are then monetarily penalized for not having enough money for health insurance is not an anecdote.
that is fact.
it is stated right on ACA's website

Do the costs of achieving universal health care outweigh the benefits?
In 2005, the Emory economist Dr. Kenneth Thorpe published an important report for
the National Coalition for Health Care, a strictly non-partisan, broad-based coalition of
businesses, providers, unions, and other groups interested in improving the health care
system. In this report, Dr. Thorpe calculated the costs to the government of instituting
health care for all under four different scenarios:
• Institute an employer mandate plus individual mandate (requiring employers to
provide a certain level of health benefits, and requiring individuals who do not
get employer-based insurance to obtain health insurance through some
mechanism)
• Expand public programs such as Medicaid;
• Create a new program for the uninsured modeled after the Federal Employee
Health Benefits Plan (FEHBP), the insurance plan for federal employees;
• Create a universal, public financed plan.
This study did not just focus on expanding access; it also assumed significant systemic
changes including administrative simplification, computerized physician order entry, an
automated patient safety/error reporting system, reduction in inappropriate clinical
practice variation, and controls of provider payments and premiums to reach target
goals in expenditure growth. According to Thorpe’s analysis, each of these four
options would save money over 10 years. The first two options would save $320.5
billion over 10 years, the third option would save $369.8 billion over 10 years, and the
fourth option would save $1.1 trillion over 10 years.16
The important point to take away from Thorpe’s study is that universal health care,
coupled with cost controls, can save money while expanding health care access to
everyone. If universal health care simply expanded access, the net expenditure would
be large. The only way to pay for this expanded access is to institute cost controls
such as administrative simplification.

So again, why aren't you complaining about farmers getting subsidized?

And I explained to you, brainlet, that food is heavily subsidized already, supporting my argument. Clothing, meanwhile, is cheap because we outsource to China. That can't realistically happen for healthcare.

Why are conservatives such brainlets?

Heres some easy to read info to show you the current system in the US is actually MUCH more expensive than all countries with universal coverage

i dont see how farmers being subsidized affects me in any way.
im not complaining about anything being subsidized

if we're complaining about something being subsidized, i would like to complain about student loans.
if 18 year old kids didnt have the ability to get so much money from the government, these shit-hole colleges wouldnt charge 60k a year to attend their left-wing brainwashing seminars.

See my answer here
I lived in the US, I know I payed less.

Simple math, for someone calling everyone a brainlet

Nobody "deserves" anything just for existing.

>to attend their left-wing brainwashing seminars.

lel

there's a lot wrong with fast food, but the taxes should be on more specific things like refined sugar, and factory farming should be illegal because thats where the shit quality, unhealthy meat comes from.

>the fact that people who cannot afford health insurance are then monetarily penalized for not having enough money for health insurance is not an anecdote.

The vast majority of people can find something cheaper on the exchanges.

>i dont see how farmers being subsidized affects me in any way.
You get cheaper food you dumb dickhead.

>im not complaining about anything being subsidized
Including healthcare? Great, we're in agreement. Let's subsidize the shit out of healthcare.

>i dont see how farmers being subsidized affects me in any way.
Your tax dollars are being used on something that isn't needed nor actually helps the prosperity of America or its people.
At least student loans allow our workforce to be more diversified in education and gives us a chance to remain competitive toward other 1st world countries that are quickly becoming more skilled and educated than we are.
>Protip: We want the inventions/patents/war tech.

Will add that it does allow for cheaper food but I personally am butthurt about big farmers in general as they take advantage of the people/environment/government out west.

We could save money overall if we gassed the commies.

seriously, i went to my gf's graduation and one of the professors, black of course, went up and took off on a 35 minute rant about the white man and them putting the black man down and how black people are systematically killed by police officers and about INSTITUTIONALIZED RACISM. FIND ME A GOD DAMN RACIST LAW

he also said "This nigga from the bronx with a phD" while on stage.
like holy fucking dogshit are you kidding me? this is where these leftist extremists are coming from

If only student loans were only used for useful degrees though.
150k for 4 years of underwater basket weaving sure is helping America in the patent tech wars

Good thing they have to pay the money back.

So, you don't have an actual mathematical analysis on that? You just assume that removing millions from the workforce for easily preventable shit is good for the economy because your fee-fees tell you so.

The supreme court has been striking down racial gerrymandering cases over the past few years and there are many still intact. How do you not know this?

What I see is that America's public spending is already equal to roughly all of the spending of other ocde countries.
What constitutes America's public spending? Niggers going to the ER. Solution: no more niggers.

It's not you who is going to pay for it. The real reason why it is propagandized as bad to your average person because it would be less profitable to them. The US already spends way more per capita on healthcare and we don't have any kind of real safety net for people.

you missed my point about the colleges.

colleges were thriving long before they increased tuition at a rate exponentially higher than wages or costs
the only actual reason college in the u.s. is so expensive is because the government gives out money for people to pay it.

the same thing is true for healthcare being subsidized
oh i am disagreeing with healthcare being subsidized.

if insurance wasnt legally mandated, significantly less people would have it at the current price.
if it wasnt legally mandated they would not be able to charge what they charge for insurance.

if hospitals werent so radically overpriced, we wouldnt need insurance
like really i went to the er the other day, had loads of tests done and i paid out of pocket. it wound up being 600 dollars.
at one point during my visit a neurologist stopped and asked me why im there, while i was in the hallway.
i was sent a bill for her asking me that
it was classified as a neurological consultation.
it was 615 dollars
obviously i called and disputed it and got out of it
but they believe they can charge this shit because insurance covers it all
they charge whatever they want because they know the insurance companies will pay for it
this is another reason why insurance is so expensive
if hospitals charged appropriate amounts of money for care, insurance wouldnt be as needed, nor would it be as expensive.

fucking god damn scam artists.
this whole system is a fucking scam.

White people go to the ER too.

>Nobody "deserves" anything just for existing.
Nobody was voluntarily born, but those who hit some kind of lotto deserves more money to go to them for just existing.

I wonder if we could have such a system for healthcare costs. Hmmm
We could even call them "emergency loans".

>if insurance wasnt legally mandated, significantly less people would have it at the current price.
Well, yeah, but the people who do have it were seeing premiums rise at a crazy rate. Now premiums are rising at a reduced rate.
>if it wasnt legally mandated they would not be able to charge what they charge for insurance.
There is no data to support this. Premium rate increase has slowed significantly thanks to the ACA.

>Nobody "deserves" anything just for existing.
I agree, let's get rid of inheritances by taxing them at 100%. Why should you get free shit just for being someone's child?

>he doesn't know that that's what insurance is anyway

Thank you for that astute observation

Glad you think we should kill all white people.

the healthcare spending is the way it is because hospitals make the price whatever they want it to be, because they know the insurance company will pay it.
which then fucks people who arent using insurance.
which also increases insurance price.
which then fucks people who are using insurance
i have seen bills for saline bags costing 800 dollars.
this is the case with many medications, procedures, and visits
for no reason other than "they can"

cancer drugs are 10x the price in the U.S. as they are in any other country.
simple things like MRI's are almost twice as expensive in the U.S
a procedure like an appendix removal?
thats at least 16k here in the us
what about in spain?
2 grand.
australia?? 4k

the us is corrupt and they are all working together jacking up the prices to get more money out of the taxpaying citizens.