I realize that GW has fucked 40k up pretty bad in recent history, and that it has a lot of problems, but it still remains one of my favourite sci-fi settings for tabletop and pen & paper. Why don't we talk about the unique things it brings to the table as a universe, and things it actually does well, for once.
ITT: Positive things about 40k as a setting
I like the Admech.
Dem ship designs
The scale. The scale of the setting allows you to tell stories that involve massive struggles on a heightened level of drama, and still remain a tiny spec of the larger setting ultimately disrupting none of the established canon fans love so much.
The cosmic horror of chaos
"Everyone is evil," may not be the best way to portray it, but I do absolutely adore the clear-cut moral grey throughout the setting. The Warp is also a fantastic idea provided that the writers actually use it cleverly and in accordance with established "rules," instead of using it as an in-'verse asspull.
Kitchen sink setting.
Pretty much anything can be fit into the setting. It's why people keep complaining about 40kid bringing warhammer into everything like a bunch of furries, except, it's that we cram everything else into 40k because by it's nature, there can easily be a 40k version of it. I'd understand the point if it was a thread about something unrelated and then people brough 40k into it, but in 90% of cases, it's a 40k discussion to begin with where someone takes inspiration from an outside source into.
You can take inspiration from fucking everywhere and that's the main reason I play. I have so many fucking army ideas and I just keep getting new ones all the time.
Have a Chinese Stormtrooper.
It's such an overused comparison but whenever I watch a documentary or historical film featuring Nazis I occasionally see a little flash of iconography or rhetoric that the Imperium borrows from, and it reminds me a lot of that theme of moral grey area.
I personally love the imperial creed as stated by the Emperor in its view of humanity.
> Mankind Is Great
> Mankind Can Do Great Things
> Mankind Don't Need Nobody Else To Be Great
That sort of thing.
Which of courses amplifies the tragedy that follows...
This.
I've been developing a world for a DH2 game based upon English and Scottish culture of the 20s-40s, especially from around the border regions and lowlands, adapting little influences and historical anecdotes into something unique, and knowing that it fits into the existing lore without conflict if you put a little work in, can be very satisfying.
People rag on Black Library a lot, and loads of it is trash, but the good books in there are pretty great, see image.
>Positive things about 40k as a setting
But user, it's grim derp. That by default cancels all the good stuff
>i have no imagination the post
>Positive things about 40k as a setting
Wonderful deconstructions and REconstructions of many popular concepts like interstellar empire, finalized gnosticism, will-driven magic, ubermenschen, remnant races, tangible divinity, super mechas, AIs, theocracy, total war, et cetera. Brutally picking those apart and trampling then in dirt, but then again showing what can be still relatable, lovable and AWESOME about them. For example, it's one of the few fictionalsettings that makes a good portrayal of "War is Hell" concept, while still not crumbling into a pacifist tract and displaying everything admirable and great about it,
Awesome scope, which allows for an unlimited kitchen sink, like this here fa/tg/uy mentioned.
Inspired by and borrows from an absolute ton of actually great works of fiction, from Hyperion Cantos to Dune to works of P.K.Dick and S. Lem to Lev Tolstoy, et cetera. Lots of people who work(ed) on 40k fluff are very well-read people, and are not ashamed of playing with what they enjoyed in good literature.
Absolutely gorgeous stylistics and designs.
>gorgeous styles and designs
Im sure a lot of people would fight you over that
It's a setting primarily about war, and war tends to be grimderp even IRL, which people tend to conveniently forget. 40k manages to avoid turning from just grimdark of warfare into a total cringefest by maintaining the calm context of individual's insignificance and futility in the face of global processes, so we don't have angsty Shinjis deciding humanities' fate (and the one Shinji who tried now Has No Mouth and He Must Scream).
One may or may not like them. One however cannot deny that they are quite original and influential.
These
>see image.
Indeed, the older books did have some gems unlike the nonstop garbage we get now
It's ridiculous to the point where you can insert the funniest and weirdest of shit into it as said by It has great aesthetics and art for all the factions. Eldar and dark eldar, chaos marines and loyalist marines etc are both very similar but very different in the end.
All the factions are, in the end, trying to reach the same goal (except tyranids?) but because everyone is going at it differently and due to ideological/species barriers, it ends up as an all-out war
I like the openness of it. The galaxy is so massive you can really make your dudes how you like me. Other positives
>orks
>No real good guys
>so much history
>the primarchs, even the crappy ones
>orks
>whenever the tau lose
>whenever the tau lose to orks
>grots
>It has great aesthetics and art for all the factions.
Too bad that's fallen by the wayside with recent books
Atleast in the future we can say "we used to have nice things"
They can always just go ye olde road of retcon once they realise they fucked up
>tfw ork players on the tabletop are like unicorns
The fanbase. Some of the most entertaining and genuinely interesting discussions have arisen from 40k threads. Also some of my favorite Veeky Forums memes. I'm not kidding when I say, generally speaking, I like 40k fans.
>sci-fi setting
I always thought of it as grim-dark future-fantasy.
My favourite bit of the setting is the contrast between cultures on different planets. Like how one planet can be stuck the medieval ages in a feudal system, and another could have spiralling give cities, spawning multiple societies at different altitudes.
>I always thought of it as grim-dark future-fantasy.
When I first got into 40k I actually thought it was just Warhammer Fantasy's timeline advanced by 40,000 years.
>Warhammer 40k
>Positive
What makes 40k unique in comparison to other sci-fi fantasy settings is that it is anything but positive.
Life sucks, everyone is miserable, and there is only War.
>Totally in love with the Universe despite never actually playing the Table top games
>WH40k will never get the AAA budget Blockbuster Movie it deserves.
Fuck Star Wars
Certain lore hints that it was, but people got pissed so that was canned.
Very old lore suggested the Warhammer world was actually a world in a bottle in 40k
>Life sucks
>everyone is miserable
Except for Charters merchants, nobles, governors, bishops, AdMech Magi, Administum officials, top IG and DepMun brass, sanctioned Primaris Psychers, wealthy rogue traders, and all the lesser folks who can appreciate the little what they have and find solace in their families, communities, duties and faith in the God Emperor.
>and there is only War
And in War, along with Horror comes Valor, along with Treachery comes Loyalty, with Isolation come Camaraderie, and with Death comes Sacrifice.
Oh my, can you link to any sources for that last one?
I don't think a 40k movie would do very good unfortunately.
Normies are used to having happy endings, where the good guy always triumphs over evil, etc.
For a 40k movie to be good it would have to hammer the idea that everything is going to shit, and there is nothing here but war and misery.
Normies would leave the theater depressed that all the good guys efforts were for nothing and the planet got exterminatus'd in the end anyway.
>WH40k will never get the AAA budget Blockbuster Movie it deserves.
THANK FUCKING GAWB BLEEDING EMPEROR.
I like my 40k where it is now - on the border between mainstream and niche. Blockbustering would totally lead to it turning into Not!Star Wars, with all the associated faggotry.
The Rule of Cool, Kitchensink nature of it. It has chainsaw swords, spandex ninjas', green giants with huge grease guns and jagged hatchets. It has space magic, space commies, space elves, space knights, space space, space mormons, pewpewpew and dakkadakkadakka. It combines the sweeping grandeur of space opera with the grit and misery of WW2 (or WW1 if you're Krieg). The fact you can be endlessly creative, making 'your dudes' and not disrupt lore at all. The fact that it lets you be a goose stepping fascist relatively guilt free WITHOUT having to be /pol/. the fact that the Imperium, for all it's flaws, is the most egalitarian place in the universe - when everyone is needed to die for the Emperor, no ones skin or gender matters. grab a gun and get in line.
It's Space England. Fantasy Sci-fi Steampunk. It has flying castles with guns. It has weapons so advanced and tiny they fit into rings, rings made by Orangutangs.
Fuck Jokaero Weaponsmiths
It would make talking about it online unbearable.
Atleast the gamestores would be the same.
Also this.
On the contrary, i think thats what would make it a success.
the masses are bored of the same old same, 40k mixes it up with its grimdark concepts and ideas.
I think a 40k movie would blow the new star wars movies out of the water.
For all people's complaints about originality, I have yet to find any other setting that features or has featured Gothic-Cathedral-City-Space-Battleships.
tfw it would exclusively be about space marines and how strong they are
I agree, if only because I'm not fond of A New Hope Recycled.
Also, on topic, Orks are just great. They notice how ridiculous the setting is, and act accordingly.
That's not really unique to 40k.
Way, way back in Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader 1st Edition, it was suggested Warhammer took place inside the Eye of Terror. 40k, in turn, happened inside a jar on a shelf in some WHF Imperial wizard's school.
Characters in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay could get 40k guns as a Chaos mutation, Fantasy Chaos armies could use 40k CSMs as elite troops
All of these links were erased as of 3rd Edition and GW definitively said they were not linked, so this is a quarter of a century out of date.
Rather than going full federation, it extolls both the good and bad of traditional "right" morals and thoughts, it's a welcome of pace from hyper-progressive "so noblebright I need hippy sunglasses" settings.
Oh, and citation:
Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader (1st Edition)
Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness (1988)
Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned (1990)
No user.
War is grim and dark. It's never "derp"
>the masses are bored of the same old same
No. The masses always want the same shit from well within their comfort zone - nice, safe and easy. The hardest concept of grey-area they can stomach is "bad guy used to be bad guy but then became a totally good guy". The Imperium they will not bear.
>I think a 40k movie would blow the new star wars movies out of the water.
Impossible, as it doesn't has an ultra-recognizable name that forces every human on Earth to watch it or suffer cultural alienation from the rest of the human race.
Didn't Kaldor "Ridiculous Bullshit" Draigo end up in the WHF universe in one of the shittier BL books?
I'd kill for a good film adaptation of Eisenhorn
Dunno. Further Details:
Rick Priestley joined GW in 82 with a game he developed called Rogue Trader, which would in the future become Warhammer 40k (due to worrying about it being confused with Rogue Trooper, another game they published). From the ads of the era, the game had little in common with what would eventually come out in 87.
Rogue Trader was supposed to come out quite shortly, but eventually did not. I suspect that this was because back then GW had been purchased by Citadel Miniatures's Bryan Ansell, and Citadel mostly had a Fantasy range of miniatures, and so instead, Warhammer The Mass Combat Fantasy Role-Playing Game came out in 83 (the original rulebooks were quite full of direct references to Citadel miniatures). So no, it is not quite true that Warhammer Fantasy came first. More details of this whole process can be found in the White Dwarf 97.
Almost immediately, science fiction elements crept in the fluff. Five months after the game came out, the first Citadel Compendium came out with an article entitled "Warhammer and Science-Fiction!", which included ideas on how to mix Warhammer with science fiction elements. Among those were already Warhammer 40k weapons. The Second Citadel Journal included some details of the technological past of Warhammer, in the scenario "Rigg's Shrine", which mentionned the High Age where the Amazons benefited from the tutelage of the Old Slanns and such, and the scenario is full of technological leftovers from the era.
The second edition was the first to have a really fleshed out background, which already mentioned how the world was basically built by the Old Slanns, a race of space frogs, with more informations on the topic during the third edition.
In march 87, you can find the following announcement for Warhammer 40k in the White Dwarf
I meant that 40k would have a more fresh and original quality, as opposed to "recycled new hope starring strong and independent mary sue character"
Once the game came out, though, they did not do all that much with it. Here are a few of the most important interactions between the two universes :
The WD 100 includes the scenario "The Floating Gardens of Bahb-Elonn", which mentions that the Pygmies are the descendants of a crashed spaceship before the Slanns arrived on this world.
Realm of Chaos : The Lost and the Damned mentions that the Known World is a planet cut off from the rest of the Imperium due to important warp storms("The Warhammer World is bound by storms of magic so that it remains isolated form the other wolds of the human galaxy"). It also has some ambiguous mention of a scenario with a crashed spaceship, and another with "The Obsidian Crag", a mysterious place full of weird technology in the Chaos Wastes (obsidian is quite often associated to the Slanns). And of course one of the divine reward was to transport a Chaos band to and fro from the Known World and the galaxy.
The WD 108 contains a scenario about a warp gate linking the Known World to some random planet, which has unleashed an Ambull in some cave in the Empire.
The Star Boat, a novel by Stephen Baxter, has a Norse expedition to the Chaos Wastes to recover a Slann spaceship.
The Star Boat was supposed to have two sequels. One was actually written and approved, but this was during the era where Warhammer Books was collapsing on itself, and as a result was never published as a Warhammer novel. To not waste it too much, it was reworked somewhat and published under the title "Webcrash" (the original title was supposed to be "Wood and Iron"). The story details (as far as I can tell, I do not know exactly how much was changed) an imperial ship (with minimal crew) washing up on the Known World, one of them going rogue and trying to do villainous thing while the navigator and a norse lady (the wife of the hero of the previous story) team up to stop him.
mfw
The third sequel I don't know too much about except that it was apparently amazing, with the working title "Titan vs. T-Rex", about a giant robot ending up on the Known World and fighting one of the Lizardmen's dinosaurs or something, though I don't think it was ever actually written.
More details about all those books are here :
bsfa.co.uk
The two Warhammer RPG supplements released on the internet, Realm of Sorcery and Realm of Divine Magic, by Ken Rolston, also tried to expand somewhat on the links between the two universes, but were unfortunately never published either.
After the 3rd edition of Warhammer and the 1st edition of 40k, those references sort of disappeared. Perhaps they did not know too much what to do with it (they couldn't really have the Imperium invade or whatnot), or maybe it was the change of staff (Andy Chambers usually said he doesn't like to reveal too much the inner workings of the universe back when he was the head honcho). A few still remained, such as technological objects popping up (like in the Albion campaign), identical demons in both universes and the description of a Thousand Son in some chaos scholar's book.
The position of the Warhammer world is never really given. The Slann empire is very poorly described in Warhammer 40k, the Slanns themselves only appearing a few times in it. Rogue Trader does mention that currently, it is in the galactic north, but that it used to cover the whole galaxy, and that the ex-worlds of the Slann empire sometimes have backward Slanns living on them (this is related to the portal's collapse as described in Realm of Chaos). So we can just really say that it is not in the north, probably. "Wood and Iron" describes it as being out of reach of the Astronomican. Best guess would be that it would be in the Ultima Segmentum, but that is on some very vague hints.
15 Hours was a fantastic book.
full credit to some random asshole on the internet here scifi.stackexchange.com
>It's never "derp"
In late 1941, the commander of Soviet North-Western Front F.I. Kuznetsov lost one of his two armies. Not a division, not a corps, not a brigade, the whole 8th Army of 7 full land divisions, plus aviation, plus logistics and support. Not "got it completely destroyed in battles", not "left it behind while retreating", literally LOST IT. Ordered it maneuver to east while staying in his other army's HQ, lost radio contact and later did not find it where he expected, and for almost 3 days Soviet STAVKA had no idea where the FUCK one of the armies crucial to the defense of Leningrad is mucking about, while the army had no idea where it currently is and where it's needed. It was found after Zhukov personally participated in an air recon over the area. Kuznetsov was then relieved of command of NW Front for that fuck up.
If that's not a 40k-level grimdepr, then I don't know what is.
Adding to the point - William "I am the army" Brydon, or 1842 retreat from Kabul.
>admech design
>everything ork related.
>catachans
List is done
Oh and dawn of war 1
>military derp thread
this is like soviet tiers of retard tactics from italy
How the fuck.
>"And you thought Chenkov's tactics were unrealistic!"
Oh screw you. It took Soviets only 4 attempts to retake Rzhev, and 3 to retake Kharkov although both of those bunches provided casualties comparable to total casualties by all sides per 1 year of WWI, and those were the most glaring attempts by Soviets to ram through a brick wall.
Someone post the one about Russia sending it's atlantic fleet to fight Japan. That was gold.
15 Fuckin Hours is seriously my favorite piece of Warhammer fiction.
To be fair, Tsushima was just a normal battle, albeit one with a far-reaching impact.
The lead up, however
Ah, Italy
This x1000
Of god please no it's one of the few things that is still capable of making me feel embarrassed for the Motherland.
am i reading this right? is this the same fucking general fighting the same goddamn battle 11 fucking times over and never acomplish anything?
did this fuckhead cause the death of thousands and never got relieved of command?
is this real life?
>fuckhead cause the death of thousands and never got relieved of command?
No user. He caused the deaths of tens of thousands. Well over 180,000 deaths in fact. Possibly over 240k.
but it is the same general fighting the same battle eleven times over and doing jack shit right?
>is this real life?
Yes. Yes it is. You are now aware that reality can be just as retardedly grimderp as the worst parts of 40k. Enjoy.
And these are just civilized Italians - not Russians, Chinese, Arabs or Japs
>Italians
>Civilized
Yup.
Over 380,000 men were died or wounded fighting for the same piece of shit.
>11 fucking times
12 , but he was relieved of command after 2 years - Marshal is a pretty hard rank to kick someone from, and he did win the 6th battle
en.wikipedia.org
Estimated Italian causalities are about 300'000, so about half their casualties for the entire war
Really? There's only a few things?
...
>tfw France and Armenia do better last stands than your own history
R-Remember the Alamo ;_;
To be fair to Russia, Finns are a race of lunatic drunken sociopaths, and they should be left alone to stew in their own alcoholism whenever possible.
While you're at it.
The Finns where all Campers.
How is that even possible
This one is kind of harsh, given how heavily mined the area was, but still
wow rude
still true though
The room to go wild and really personalize your army and still slot them into the greater setting is part of the appeal.
Eh, it of could've been worse.
Siege vs Armenian* snipers in bad weather.
*They're mad in battle. The only people with a bigger warboner/murderboner than armenians are armenians from nogorno karabach.
...
To go slightly back on topic, Imperial Knights and all the good art of them are pretty great
I play HoR kill team and I fucking love Orks. Just bought a Killa Kan off eBay to increase the amount of firepower I can throw at the enemy. I get competitive, but I kinda like losing with Orks. The sheer amout of shots I can pull off in one round with even half my team is laughable. When I slaughter a bunch of cultists with two boyz it makes me chuckle. If I get blown out in melee, I just run another squad into them laughing about how I play orks to canon.
My favorite thing about it is the magical treatment of technology in the Imperium. It's neat that they had such highly advanced tech in a past era so distant people only vaguely recall how to use it, and now ritualistically revere it. And it neatly helps apologize for dumb things like space knights using swords, and really stupid combat doctrines. Their culture is backwards, medieval, and idiotic but they were once the pinnacle of achievement.
That, the fantasy races in space and the gothic nature of the imperium are what got me into this setting. It's the opposite of the generic star trek galaxy and it disturbed and intrigued me at the same time.
The idea behind the knights is cool, but fuck I hate those models. So ugly.
...
Why is Italy so fucking bad at war? Daddy Rome was a fucking boss, what the fuck happened?
I really wanna play against a boy spamming ork player with my 160ish man guards list.
Just so we both get to rollion hundreds of dice a turn and just keep sending more meat into the grinder.
40k needs a tight, well done film ala Dredd that would manage to get enough popularity that it makes its money back and gains some popularity at the same time.
If you try to have a AAA Blockbuster, other fingers start getting into the pot and that's where you get Space Marines with love interests and the Emperor actually being alive and other crimes against humanity. Compare Seasons 1 and 2 of Game of Thrones with what came after, for example. Basically, the bigger the budget and the more attention means the more the suits want to control what you are doing.
The inverse of that, of course, is the Marvel method where the Suits keep as much creative control to make sure things flow. But I'm not advocating for a Warhammer Cinematic Universe.
The kind of film 40k needs is a basic "Orks vs. Imperial Guard" style of film. You feature a Regiment from a world that's not too different than our own, and have them take in just how big the 40k universe really is. And it actually gives you the opportunity to use a diverse cast, which would give the film props from those sorts of circles. You can set up the different personalities of the Universe through other characters. Orks can go from legitimately terrifying to comic relief. Spaces Marines should be treated as godlike, mythic figures shrouded in myth only a few have actually seen; and when they do show up it should be at the end to save the day.
Keep the script tight and focused, don't let the movie be war porn. Honestly, David Ayer would be a great director for it. Fury had the right tone for an IG movie. It shouldn't be longer than two hours. It's a war film with a 40k focus, don't wander too far from the path. Don't go over budget.
There, a 40k film that would get general audiences and fans.
I mean it sounds like you're describing 15 hours, the film which would be a fucking dope film tbf
I mean, 15 hours is a great book (it was my first BL book) but I don't think it would do too great as an adaption. Mostly because people would call out the "All Quiet" similarities too quickly.
And having just a basic guardsman might not be the best choice for point of view characters. He or she would be treated like dirt by just about everyone who isn't his or her squad mates. A sympathetic Commissar (like Gaunt or Cain) or a junior officer would be a better protagonist.