All settings, from WH40k to Gundam, derive from this in some way. It's the science fiction equivalent to LotR. And so I ask, is it worth reading, or is it one of those things where the legacy is more important than the actual object.
And post some soldiers!
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I wouldn't go so far as to define ir the LotR of sci-fi but YES it's been a huge influence and it's worth reading.
It shares that title with Dune desu
...
imho also with the lensman series without wich you wouldn't have half of Space Opera's tropes and Star Trek and Babilon 5 wouldn't have been possible.
Desu ne~
I've never read it, but I've heard it as a recommended read for late teens.
...You mean War of the Worlds, right?
No, I don't
>I'm a mature adult that reads mature literature exclusively! I'm really fun at parties, can I read segments from Ulysses for you? no? ok..
what the fuck
wastebasket
why
That's where they store humans so that they can farm them and feed on their blood later.
>It's the science fiction equivalent to LotR.
You haven't read much Heinlein, right?
Gonna need some major >implying for that, son.
Pretty sure Asimov is the Tolkien of Sci-Fi
All correct.
What Starship Troopers is the granddaddy of is space marines in power armor jumping out of starships, and maybe humans fighting an insectoid alien species.
As for your question, op, I'd say it's worth a read. Some folks don't like it because of the message it's trying to convey, but fuck them. It's a classic of the genre and worth a read.
>into the trash you go
>penngillettewithtentacles.jpg
I believe so as well, but I think that one of Starship Troopers' tropes has been catastrophic for science fiction writers and for that matter anyone interested in the future of mankind:
Starship Troopers posits a society in which personal responsibility is the greatest civic virtue. This puts it higher on the Utopian scale of unrealistically perfect humans than the Communist Manifesto, which is saying something.
People small of mind tend to interpret this as "fascism," presumably because they have literally never read anything about fascism from any source.
If I had to point to The Science Fiction piece, though, the one with the most long-lasting implications, I'd have to point to one that literally nobody today has read: The Night Land.
Holy fucking shit, read this work. It was written a hundred years ago by a guy who was trying to emulate how people wrote a hundred years ago *at the time he was writing,* meaning he was emulating a literary style from when Andrew Jackson was still young.
It's a science fiction fantasy piece of basically unparalleled badassitude. Everything is there. Chainsaw-axes, Huge Arcologies, world-ending monsters, lovecraftian horror (Lovecraft commented that the guy had a horrifying imagination even by his standards) and somehow he combines this with a straight up Love Across the Ages message that completely BTFOs every other attempt of it in history.
If you want to watch Beowulf in power armor with a chainsaw axe go up against Lovecraft's nightmares in a dystopian world worse than literally anything else ever written, read The Night Lands.
go to sleep Jimmy.
>a horrifying imagination even by his standards
>"He was as deep as time and had teeth the color of fear and nightmares." (Lovecraft,1930)
Don't break the kayfabe you fuck.
>People small of mind tend to interpret this as "fascism," presumably because they have literally never read anything about fascism from any source.
Don't you have homework to do? Starship Troopers is a self-perpetuating dystopia in the same vein as Brave New World and 1984. You'll probably cover one or both of those in the next few years so try to pay attention in class. And read some earlier sci-fi while you're at it. I bet you think Evangelion invented giant robots, don't you?
Name me one dystopian element of Starship Troopers that isn't the continued existence of Filipinos.
Dune is excellent and sold well, but I wouldn't say it had a big impact on sci fi.
>No one mentions Asimov's Foundation
>It beat out LOTR, Lensmen, and the Barsoom books to win a special "Best all-time series" Hugo
I WANT THE CASUALS TO LEAVE
read the thread.
But if he did that he couldn't mount his high horse
Its really not if you not 14yo, its boring fascist military pulp with author's wank to utopian society, movie was best at mocking it.
Just a sec user, ill hand you over the pdf so you can read it and see for yourself.
It had the first space marines, first orbital drop pods, first jetpacks (as far as i know) and the setting was a large interstellar war between humans and some alien bugs.
Also psykers who could read bug minds and planet cracking bombs towards the end of the book a'la exterminatus.
>It's the science fiction equivalent to LotR
That is funny way to spell Frank Herbert's Dune.
Never read Dune (it sounds dry) what sort of things have their roots therein?
God Emperor, interstellar rotten Empire with declining technology, ban of AI, navigators, shape shifting assassins, all male and female supersoldier orders.
Hate for robots and A.I, humanity is ruled over by an emperor and several noble houses, all interstellar traffic is handled by a spacing guild that uses a substance called spice which prolongs their lifes and mutates them...
Hold on, ill get you a video about this.
youtube.com
God emperor appeared on later books.
The first Star Wars rips Dune's setting then removes all the nuance and intrigue.
Those are hardly common traits in sci fi though. There's several notable settings that use them, but there's a hell of a lot that don't.
I don't think you could even begin to compare Dune's legacy to Lord of the Rings
>posts on filipino finger paints forum
>complains about filipinos
I'm inclined to agree with this guy, none of those elements strike me as omnipresent
Social Justice Warrior confronted with conflicting ideas.
This guy is part of the answer to your question: Can you deal with a semi-militaristic world view that is not your own and not completely condemned by the narrator?
If so give it a try, the character development of the main character is certainly convincing and interesting and Heinlein is a master at contemplating small details, which would alter social conventions in everyday life within a new environment be it space or simply a more advanced future.
>Social Justice Warrior confronted with conflicting ideas.
If any i am right wing capitalist.
I just know you can't built democratic society if it ruled by military people, you will get either junta or stalinism/nazism.
=>
>Starship Troopers
>a self-perpetuating dystopia
>sociology major detected
Disagree. Heinlein set his tales almost exclusively in what he considered mankind's ultimate future utopia:
Terrans becoming an unstoppable, united and fully rational culture that recognized that its self-determination in the greater galaxy was best served when based on a global, then a system and then a stellar meritocracy. But by proposing the horrible idea that any people objectively, empirically and mathematically proven to produce physically compromised and/or retarded offspring could be denied Citizenship (the moral equivalent, evidently, of gassing them and shoveling the corpses into ovens), Heinlein was labeled a "fascist" and his speculative universe of meanie-head cripple haters "dystopian" by a number of people with liberal arts degrees.
I bet you collect guardsmen/black templars.
Chaos, actually. What's your next theory to be, Darwin?
Gotta agree with this guy.
Beyond that and the relatively harsher punishments for crimes, the world didn't look too bad, people could own businesses and there was at least some form of democracy, (though it was based on meritocracy) also i don't think there was any mentions of mass surveillance or any bars stopping people from owning private property or even holding different beliefs.
You think you are smarter than everyone else and society doesn't recognise your true value
Even better.
Your name name is not important. What is important is what you are going to do... You just fuckin' hate this world. And the human worms feasting on its carcass. Your whole life is just cold, bitter hatred. And you always wanted to die violently. This is your time of vengeance and no life is worth saving. And you will put in the grave as many as I can. It's time for you to kill. And it's time for you to die.
>also i don't think there was any mentions of mass surveillance or any bars stopping people from owning private property or even holding different beliefs.
That is because narrator was from rich and powerful family, of course you can live in third reich freely if you rich.
>Rich and powerful family
His whole family were civilians and his dad owned a small company, beyond that they weren't that influential and still they didn't have to eat sawdust porridge or extra processed meat rations.
It's worth reading. posted the .pdf (albeit with a weird cover) but it's a fun book with an interesting background and gave birth to power armor. What's not to like? Personally, I'd recommend starting off with Starship Troopers, then reading The Forever War, and then finish off with Armor.
All these people talking about God Emperors are being silly. What Dune did is set up science fantasy. Noble houses, spess swordfights, magic, mutants, and spess Chosen Ones. Dune set up Star Wars.
Plus it's pretty good. At least give the first one a go. Betrayal, vengeance, knife fights with monster teeth, and desert waifus. It's a fun read, although it is dry in parts.
You sure as heck can't compare ST legacy to LOTR either.
I'd actually agree with you there. There's no LOTR equivalent in sci-fi and this thread is silly, especially when it's essentially a Veeky Forums question.
Thanks for sharing your educational gaps with us.
Original democracy was based exactly arround the system demonstrated in Starship Troopers, it is not even a subtle hint.
A united humanity against an unquestionable foe...
It is pretty simple sci-fi.
I got some write faggotry based off this if you guys want something to distract you for however long it takes you to read it
You seems to have a good point at comparing antique slavery society to modern postindustrial.
Its worth reading, but it isn't the LotR of Scifi by a long shot. However it does have concepts/elements which you can see informed WH40K type space marines (bio-mech power suited super warriors) and the battle strategies of Mechwarrior type stuff.
>Some folks don't like it because of the message it's trying to convey
what message is that?
Well they definetely didn't turn into
>facism, stalinism or a military junta
A historical precedent is all I need to invest to disprove such an absolute statement without any explanation or empirical data to back it up.
Man up and fight for your rights. Self help, self reliance
>It's the science fiction equivalent to LotR
That's strange, nobody in this thread seems to be talking about Book of the New Sun
Name one successful modern free country ruled by militarist and muh worthy citizens.
North Korea
This is where people struggle with Heinlein. Stranger in a Strange Land is about utopian socialism, Starship Troopers is about fascism and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is about anarchism. If they all were supposed to have a message, his body of work would be totally incoherent. The point isn't to sell the reader something (although you have to forgive people for thinking so, since almost everyone tries to), it's to explore different ideas and let the reader decide what humanity can learn from them. Shockingly enough, writing about fascism doesn't mean Heinlein was a fascist, anymore than writing about Arrakis meant Frank Herbert was a sandworm.
Nice answer.
Except you're all wrong you fucking retards.
1) heinlein's actual "utopian" writing is in "Stranger from a Strange land" in wich he more or less outs himself as a dirty hippie and a fedora. "The Moon is an harsh mistress", "starship troopers","have a space suit will travel" and others are his more pragmatic books and short stories in wich he talks of the importance of civil service, discipline and self reliance. Things our zeitgeist ridicules at it's risk. This is also the reason they've been marketed to late teens:they were meant as the first semi serious book you'd read on some specific arguments. The fact that today's level of education is so abismal they're above many so called adult's comprehension is worrying.
2) nowhere in the book the federation is presented as utopian in any way shape or form: it's presented as a pragmatic compromise between democracy and the need of separating economic, cultural and military power to prevent the excesses of "the crazy years" to happen again ("the crazy years" are when we're living right now: SJW bureaucratic socialist paradise). It's also directly stated that originated from the afterward of WW3 with the express reason to avoid WW4. So reader discrection and all that.
3) It also guarantees such standards of living, rights, actual freedom (ad opposed to brave new world) etc to everyone in particular to it's non citizens that anyone calling it a dystopia should be lobotomize because they're clearly not using their frontal lobe anyway.
4) it has women in the military and a filipino protagonist in the 1950s. You'd think that would please the diversity crowd. AHAH FAT CHANCE. They were SOOO pleased they Made a movie that was a deliberate mockery and never even tried to address any of the points of the book. SJWs allways lie.
That's not a proof, these are military dictatorships, which had neither democratic roots nor meritocratic roots to begin with, so unrelated to what you said:
> can't built democratic society if it ruled by military
The only thing that comes close is maybe modern Turkey until recently backed up by a military in kemalistic faith. Have to say I take that over what we have now...but even that is not too close to the meritocratic democracy which we are referring to. That's neither a proof for or against it, but the burden of proof is on you anyways.
You can blame the director for that, it was originally supposed to be a straight adaptation.
>writing about fascism doesn't mean Heinlein was a fascist
It's depressing how few people really grasp that idea now days
Except not because it's a communist utopia like all the others that aride trying to realize the fat, rich german college dropout's projects.
>Turkey
>get a load of this retard
>"the crazy years" are when we're living right now: SJW bureaucratic socialist paradise
you were doing so well too
Just go read Hammer's Slammers already
Except he wasn't even talking about fascism. He was talking about the effects of restricting the right of voting to those that risked their own neck for other people's safety; while mantaining economic and social freedom. Fascism is nothing like this.
You are half right, he experiences with ideas and systems, but I have to disaprove with two things:
1st facism is a meaningless buzzword and the world of Starship troopers doesn't share that many traits with the two existing facist systems 2nd Heinlein definetely has some recurring ideas and trends in all his work, such as idealizing self reliance, self responsiblity, responsibility to your pack, anti racism, gender roles and maning the fuck up by taking ineviteable confrontantions head on.
It's true. The West is a collection of decaying social democracies with no strenght and no future left. And that's due to cultural factors not physical ones.
okay buddy
I meant being able to write about something, ANYTHING, without being an advocate for it.
...even Star Wars? And Star Trek?
I also blame the producers that didn't fire him when they realized he was spending their money to shit on the book they spent a little fortune to get the rights of.
Star Wars, yes
Fine enought.
the one problem with Heinlein is it assumes those who serve in the military are inherently good or selfless people. In reality, this is about a third of the people in the military. the other 2/3rds are 1. people looking for money/college, and 2. People who want to be able to legally shoot guns and kill other people.
The mythologizing of soldiers as morally upright, selfless badasses is self aggrandizement that grows out of the whole citizen soldier construct. Soldiers are no more, no less morally stalwart than any other human being. Bubba J. Bilco is not inherently more wise than his fellow man just because he wanted to 'shoot some sand niggers'
Of course if you suggest soldiers are anything else than gold shitting philosopher kings you're asking for trouble, at least in America's gasping nationalistic political sphere.
In what way does Star Wars resemble Starship Troopers?
Star Wars doesn't have space marines in power armor jumping out of starships. Stormtrooper armor is barely effective at stopping a blaster bolt from a regular blaster pistol, for Chrissake.
Star Wars is inspired by Flash Gordon and King Arthur, not Starship Troopers
Seconded.
Sorry, I got mixed up and thought you were replying to the Dune conversation earlier.
Star Wars also had a heavy inspiration from samurai movies like Akira's
>the one problem with Heinlein is it assumes those who serve in the military are inherently good or selfless people
Not at all, you didn't read the book very closely, did you.
The Night Land by William Hope Hodgson 1912
First mention of a force field that I know of in sci-fi.
Excluding people from the democratic process on ideological ground is fascist-tier of bad nation building, though. Especially when you chiefly favor the military, which is
a)in no way less retarded than any other human agency, and
b)only really good at being a military.
You could at least make a feeble argument for favoring the academia, or the corporations, or some forsaken aristocracy. Military is just a branch of government. Military is just a service. It would be no more profound that requiring you to work as a cop or a postman in order to be allowed to vote.
>>the one problem with Heinlein is it assumes those who serve in the military are inherently good or selfless people
Actually no, he assumes no such thing and you're intellectually dishonest to say otherwise if you've read the book. Rico is not even out of training and they've allready hanged a soldier for raping a little girl. You're simply assuming Heinlein wants to sell you his "utopia" (like Asimov and many moderns did) but he really doesn't want to. He wants you to think about the limitations of your system and where they do come from.
Oh, yeah, I agree with that - Dune is everywhere in Star Wars, and so is Akira Toriyama.
But it doesn't really resemble Starship Troopers, is my point.
Nor, for that matter, does Star Trek, which is more grounded in science than Star Wars is (though it's still very "soft" sci-fi). In point of fact I think Gene Roddenberry would be offended had Trek been compared to Troopers.
So getting back to OP...
>All settings, from WH40k to Gundam, derive from this in some way
I think you will find that this is only true for a certain kind of military science fiction. Off the top of my head, Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, FarScape, Stargate SG-1, Dune, and a dozen other sci-fi settings don't really have anything to do with them.
If you want to find the granddaddy of science fiction as a genre, I think you'll find it is more likely to be a mix of Edgar Rice Burroughs, H.G. Welles, and Jules Verne, with some later pulp stories like Flash Gordon thrown into the mix and the occasional touch of George Orwell and Isaac Asimov for good measure.
At least until you get to 1967 and 1977, at which point the new genesis for a huge portion of the genre is instead Star Trek and Star Wars respectively.
you two are correct and I apologize. I should rather say that the problem with people who EULOGIZE Heinlein's vision in Starship Troopers as an ideal eutopia for humanity gloss over the fact that soldiers are not inherently good people.
Even more he explicitely states that soldiers in that society are not more altruistic people per se, but that they value their right to vote more and hence put more thought into it
Even more it is explicitely stated by one officer that soldiers in that society are not smarter ore more altruistic people per se, but that they value their right to vote more and hence put more thought into it. And that's only the affirmative position from one of the supporters of this political system, his perspective
That's why in troopers you're not excluded on ideological grounds but on pragmatic grounds. You join the army? You get to vote, even if you're the dirtiest of hippies around.
Also remember: they've GOT to give you something to do. Some people in the federation join the army just to go through training and be sent to the K9 units or the Natural Disaster Relief Force.
These are all things you'd know if you'd read the book and not just searched it for some reason to get offended.
I will always have a special place in my heart for the novel Starship Troopers.
It cured a friend of mine of being a real bleeding-heart-liberal ('90s UK edition) and into becoming a far more well rounded person. Not a flip to conservative, just a far more balanced outlook.
Correction accepted, We've had a couple in this very thread.
I mean it did turn into military junta.