4e, 5e, Pathfinder

You didn't have to play Pathfinder.

> a +1/-1 difference

There's easily going to be a +3/-3 difference if you really focus Wis and keep DEX as your secondary. In a system where stats are basically half your attack bonus. On a class whose entire effectiveness in combat hinges on landing one hit.

But don't let the facts stop you from being smug I guess.

I always get high wisdom and insight as a skill, maxing it even before perception.

I don't want to deal with no fucking backstabbers in My party.

Why are Kitsune usually seen wearing those adorable shrine maiden robes? Or, for that matter, old-fashioned robes in general, typically with old-fashioned speech?

Is it just an aspect of their ancient nature or something? I figure the shrine maiden robes involve their connection to Inari, but is that really the case?

Not that guy, but is being 100% super duper optimal really that important?

Because the rogue can't pump his Wisdom?
Or playing the Unchained Rogue who can probably do more with perception with those skill ranks or whatever?

Because the Cleric relies on magic to do "everyone else's job but better" but couldn't do shit if he got debuffed?

No, the vast majority of campaigns can let you get by with being crazy unoptimized.

The reason you see so much optimization on Veeky Forums is because making a character that simply "works" is easy, so easy you don't need to even discuss how to make it work on here. Thus, the only builds worth discussing are ones that really hit the ceiling for a concept.

>Talking about 5e rogues
>Forgets about Expertise like the fuckface he is

No, please, do go on about this whining.

>Rogues are martials meme
>Don't let the facts stop you from being smug.

Good thing he's arguing with you then

>There's easily going to be a +3/-3 difference if you really focus Wis and keep DEX as your secondary. In a system where stats are basically half your attack bonus. On a class whose entire effectiveness in combat hinges on landing one hit.

Only if you are playing at low levels.

For my current game, I find it entirely appropriate that my druid has a higher perception check than the rogue.

Nah, that's why I mentioned the alternatives.

It's just that being -3 is not "not optimal" but downright bad, especially when compared to a cleric who did not have to jump through any hoops (aside from maybe selecting the right background, but I think clerics get perception anyway; don't quote me on that), to be at "optimal" effectiveness AND beat the perception of the rogue... except of course 5e rogues get expertise, so OP is off a bit, and 4e rogues get utility powers for dealing with traps, and pathfinder rogues get bonus to trap detection (but then clerics get buff spells for it so still they come o.ut ahead if they want I guess)...

It's still silly tho.

What part of that is "Only if you are playing at low levels"?

If anything, it's higher level since that's when your stats start to differ when you get your ASI.

Isn't it standard for the priest to know the vigilante's secret identity? It's normal for it to be a very perceptive archetype, at least if they're at all a heroic character.

Except that Clerics can work around garbage skill checks by casting spells that perform the same basic function.

Besides, the only skills worth investing in are perception and the various knowledges.

>Besides, the only skills worth investing in are perception and the various knowledges.
Well, we know what kind of dungeon crawling garbage game you're in now.

It is when the system assumes that you, and the rest of the party, are optimized to the point where you're capable of handling shit that's supposed to be within your weight class.

Trying to be a Fighter with shitty STR or a Wizard with shitty INT is doing nothing for your group except lowering their overall effectiveness since they'd not only have to carry you but perform twice their load just to get half the return.

Yes, I am playing D&D, what gave it away?

Please, tell me what skills are actually worth investing skill points into that the average adventurer can't ignore with a spell or two?

In 3.X, maybe, not in 5e. All those spells that let you replace somebody else's role have been altered, they're now almost all still better used on the person who holds that role already. Invisibility, for example, is much better to cast on the Rogue than anyone else, since it doesn't make you better at Stealth, it just allows you to use Stealth when you wouldn't otherwise be able to.

As for 3.X, yeah, the caster thing was an issue, but it's not specific to Clerics beating Rogues at Perception, it was a system-wide problem.

> Besides, the only skills worth investing in are perception and the various knowledges.
Just because your group doesn't have anything interesting happen in your games doesn't mean everybody plays that way.

People overlook it, but most of 5E's spells don't bypass the need to make skill checks. You could try a less shitty version of what you're playing. You could even keep the same version and just use different spells, as an experiment.

What spell gets around Perception checks?

No seriously, tell me which skills are worth investing in.

Because last I checked, everything that wasn't perception or the various knowledges either had shit returns or were so situational that you'll probably never use in a campaign once anyways.

At least with perception and the various knowledges, you can notice important bullshit and learn more about the setting. Not to mention how easily they can be used for any given situation.

I agree with the second one.

I literally can't think of a skill that won't have a use. You just need to play in campaigns with more than one goal (kill the monster and take its stuff). You use the social skills for social challenges, the mobility skills for mobility challenges, and so on. Medicine struggles to remain relevant with a magical healer in the group, but it's still useful for getting the healer back up.

Again, if you really think all the 5e skills are so useless, you're just playing in a shit campaign that doesn't have any variation in the types of challenges you face.

It doesn't. As early as AD&D they were experimenting with breaking Wisdom down into Willpower and Perception scores.

>spend all day sitting still and meditating / praying in a quiet cloister with nothing but flickering candles to keep you company
>not hearing the chittering of a mouse outside the door
clerics are in tune with the cosmos and shit, son
what's the rogue got?
>i look for shit to steal

>Social Skills

There are literally mind-altering effects that perform the same function as a social skill and are also even more effective since personal feelings aren't a factor, it just has not be a request that goes against their nature.

>Mobility Skills

Oh boy, even less relevant with the right spell.

Climb?
Jump?

Bitch, you can just fly!

Swim?

Several spells that can either alter your body to become a better swimmer or a spell that allows you to breathe underwater.

There's also the fact that we got shit like air walking, teleport, and bullshit that allows you to cross over into different dimensions.

Meanwhile, the highest you can jump is like 10 ft. straight up and maybe 30-40 ft. as a long jump IIRC.

It's trash!

>Medicine

Literally no reason to have it unless you're a healer. Even then, a potion of healing is less expensive than the medical pack that performs the same basic function.

>Again, if you really think all the 5e skills are so useless, you're just playing in a shit campaign that doesn't have any variation in the types of challenges you face.

The issue with skills isn't the fact that they're necessarily worthless, it's the fact that most of the skills (sans perception and the various knowledges) either give you shit returns on your investment, are rendered moot by magic, or just don't show up nearly as often in the average campaign to warrant investing the points into it.

In truth, this is more of third edition issue but the way that they get around it is by essentially taking out the whole investment issue out of the equation entirely, which is, again, alright but it still feels kinda shit that the only way to advance in a skill is by applying your proficiency bonus to it.

>mind altering spells

You mean the ones that make the target aware they were charmed once the spell ends?

>just fly

Which is fine, but if you cast fly for every pit you come across you're going to run out of spells very quickly

Also, Stealth checks.

Appraise, UMD, Sense Motive, Handle Animal, Linguistics, Bluff (not replicable with magic except by a bars), Sleight of Hand, Medicine as a knowledge skill to know about anatomy/disease, profession sailor/soldier/driver, Stealth (even with invisibility investment in stealth is important).

>Several spells that can either alter your body to become a better swimmer
Only gives a +8 racial bonus, not the best bonus

Gee wiz, I hope you don't run into 3 or more sheer cliff faces today, and/or I hope your party can climb as fast as you can fly. Otherwise you might leave them behind and end up getting ambushed alone.

Also casting spells is obvious, so I'm pretty sure no one's gonna let you slide with the mind-altering effects. That's like drugging someone's drink right in front of them.

To start, in 5e, the "limited uses per day" argument actually has merit since you can't inflate your spell slots to the stratosphere. So assume I repeated that for each of your following concerns. In addition to that:

> There are literally mind-altering effects that perform the same function as a social skill and are also even more effective since personal feelings aren't a factor, it just has not be a request that goes against their nature.
You might want to notice the part where charm type spells now allow the target to know they've been enchanted afterward. I don't know about you, but I don't feel like leaving behind a bunch of angry people that know I've been mind-raping them to get my way. Using your natural charms is a much safer option, magical charms are just the emergency option if you absolutely have to force this person to like you, and you're willing to burn a bridge (and possibly get arrested or revenged upon) in the process.

> [Mobility spells]
Fly helps a lot, yeah... until you take 1 point of damage, roll slightly below average, lose concentration, and fall to your death. Concentration is an important keyword, take note of it.

Also, you're likely to be making far more checks to climb, jump, or swim than you have spell slots, so go ahead, waste a 3rd level slot every time you have to cross a pit or climb a cliff. See how that works out for you.

> Literally no reason to have [Medicine] unless you're a healer.
Gee, maybe that's because Medicine is supposed to be the skill that represents being a healer? And a potion of healing costs 50 gold for one use, while a healer's kit costs 5 gold for 10 uses. You could get 100 uses of a healer's kit for the same price as one potion of healing. I'm starting to think you haven't even read the book...

>You mean the ones that make the target aware they were charmed once the spell ends?

It's not like you'll meet more than maybe 1/10 of the people you see more than once anyways.

It's also not like the average person is important enough to where their knowing that they've been charmed will cause any major problems in the long run.

Like what, farmer John is going to hunt down a band of mercenaries because he got swindled out of a few extra copper?

Get the fuck outta here.

>Which is fine, but if you cast fly for every pit you come across you're going to run out of spells very quickly

Fly has an amazing duration and, lets be honest, how many fucking pits are you going to run into?

Keep in mind, a bottomless pit will stop the martials dead in their tracks if they're unprepared so the GM will have to keep careful if he doesn't want to lose them.

>Also, Stealth checks.

Okay...what of it?

Is the random guard going to roll perception just because on the off chance that a mage is flying into a stronghold?

No, because they'll be too busy looking for Rogues who are trying to climb up the rampart or sneak through the waterways or some other commonly known entry point.

Not to mention, invisibility is a thing.

>It's not like you'll meet more than maybe 1/10 of the people you see more than once anyways.
Again, find a better game.

>It's also not like the average person is important enough to where their knowing that they've been charmed will cause any major problems in the long run.
Yeah, unless they inform the authorities that there's some asshole out there mind-raping people.

>Like what, farmer John is going to hunt down a band of mercenaries because he got swindled out of a few extra copper?
No, but the agents that the King has specifically to stop enchanters from overthrowing the kingdom might.

Also, using charm magic to swindle a farmer out of some copper? The fuck is wrong with you? Amateur shit, that's what that is.

>Get the fuck outta here.
No.

> Fly has an amazing duration and, lets be honest, how many fucking pits are you going to run into?
If you have a decent DM, one more than you were expecting.

> Is the random guard going to roll perception just because on the off chance that a mage is flying into a stronghold?
They don't have to choose to roll, they either get passive perception, or they roll automatically when you try to sneak past. Learn the rules.

> Not to mention, invisibility is a thing.
As has been mentioned before, that doesn't make you better at sneaking, that makes you able to sneak when you otherwise couldn't. You're still gonna fail your Stealth check because "Oh no, skills are useless!"

Seriously, have you even read the fucking rules?

I'm going off 3.5, and fly doesn't have amazing duration there. It's decent but not very long. Now imagine your party is going into mountains, then into a very steep cave and then fighting a dragon. You CAN burn all your slots on fly to get there, but it's a bad choice when you can mundanely climb and use your slots for something else.

>Appraise

Okay, you know the shopkeep is undercutting you a bit with your sell.

>UMD

Why would I need this shit when I can already cast the spells that the MD is enchanted with?

>Sense Motive

Cone of Truth, as well as any other spell that allows me to detect when someone's bullshitting.

>Handle Animal

I'm not trying to teach a fucking bear how to jump through a goddamn hoop, why would I ever need this shit?

Literally worthless, less than worthless!

>Linguistics

Spells that allow me to translate, understand, and speak most languages.

Seriously, shit for five, you're terrible at this.

>Bluff

Again, why would I care if the dude knows that I'm casting a spell at him?

He's gonna probably never see me again and if he raises a stink, I'll probably be in the next village or he'll be dead.

>Sleight of Hand

Why not just take it from my enemy's corpses?

>Medicine

Potions, enough said.

>Profession

I'm not a pirate, I'm not a fighter, and I'm not trying to get a gig on 2Fast2Furious.

Why would I need these when it doesn't fit my concept?

>Stealth

Not even touching this one.

>Also casting spells is obvious, so I'm pretty sure no one's gonna let you slide with the mind-altering effects. That's like drugging someone's drink right in front of them.

That's generally why I don't use on anyone who might be important later on?

Some random podunk melon farmer isn't going to do anything if he knows that I just got some of his wares for free.

>Gee wiz, I hope you don't run into 3 or more sheer cliff faces today, and/or I hope your party can climb as fast as you can fly. Otherwise you might leave them behind and end up getting ambushed alone.

Ah yes, the old "dick the mage over for doing his job" argument.

Listen mate, you might learn something.

Anything you do to dick the mage will just be dicking the martials over twice as hard, in both holes.

Yeah, someone ambushed the mage and now your dick is nice and big, but what about the martials?

Surely the people ambushing the mage would start to, I dunno, throw boulders down at them? Shoot at them while they're at a disadvantage (and probably getting an advantage on their attack roll), maybe even trigger a rock slide that they'll just have to take up the ass since they're unable to deal with it on their own?

I mean, nobody's gonna be having fun once their characters are dead but hey, you took down that pesky mage making a mess of your finely crafted campaign.

>Also casting spells is obvious, so I'm pretty sure no one's gonna let you slide with the mind-altering effects. That's like drugging someone's drink right in front of them.

You keep repeating yourself.

I'm not going to give a shit about some random peasant who knows that I mind-altered him. I'm most likely never going to see him again so what's the poing?

Expertise on perception you ffs

>Ah yes, the old "dick the mage over for doing his job" argument.
Since when is it the mage's job to rush ahead of the party without any protection?

> I'm not going to give a shit about some random peasant who knows that I mind-altered him. I'm most likely never going to see him again so what's the poing?
You may not see him, but you will definitely see the law enforcement types that get sent after you when he reports that there is a rogue enchanter running around mind-raping people.

Also, why do you keep acting like it's important for you to mind-rape random unimportant NPC's in the first place? Why the fuck are you wasting magic on these peasants and farmers in the first place?

not that guy, but
>Warrior and rogue climb the cliff face, because they have tools and are athletic people and not noodlemen
>Ranger shoots faggot throwing boulders in his throat
>Slotless wizard stands there, expecting others to be useless and gets promptly flattened by the boulder

>Yeah, unless they inform the authorities that there's some asshole out there mind-raping people.

Already way out of town buddy.

>No, but the agents that the King has specifically to stop enchanters from overthrowing the kingdom might.

Okay, the king just so happens to have hitmen for enchanters and he's going to waste his resources looking for some lead that might not even be in the same zip code anymore?

Sure chief, contrivance at its finest.

*slow clap*

>If you have a decent DM, one more than you were expecting.

How absolutely unfortunate, for there to be four pits in the way when I can only cast fly maybe three times a day.

Starting to think you're just a shitty GM considering all of these contrived coincidences. Good thing I lied and I can actually cast it four times a day, what now fag?

>They don't have to choose to roll, they either get passive perception, or they roll automatically when you try to sneak past. Learn the rules.

"sneak past?"

I'm flying several feet above their heads and I'm obscured by the various architecture.

Are you going to make them roll if a fly is somewhere in the kitchen four stories below them?

>As has been mentioned before, that doesn't make you better at sneaking, that makes you able to sneak when you otherwise couldn't. You're still gonna fail your Stealth check because "Oh no, skills are useless!"

The beauty of 5e is that you can be just as good as the Rogue if you decide to invest in having decent DEX.

In 3.X, you can easily get around shit stealth with invisibility.

So, whoops, try again fuck-o.

>Why would I need this shit when I can already cast the spells that the MD is enchanted with?
There are plenty of spells not on your spell list that you still need.

>Cone of Truth, as well as any other spell that allows me to detect when someone's bullshitting.
You realize cone of truth doesn't force people to talk, and detect thought spells have saves. God damn nigga.

>I'm not trying to teach a fucking bear how to jump through a goddamn hoop, why would I ever need this shit?
Except it handles all interactions with animals m8.

>Spells that allow me to translate, understand, and speak most languages.
You realize linguistics is also for forging documents, right?

>Again, why would I care if the dude knows that I'm casting a spell at him?
Shit nigga you gotta be trolling. You've never had a situation you had to lie to someone you may have to talk to again.

>Why not just take it from my enemy's corpses?
Yeah, trolling.

>Potions, enough said.
Nigga didn't even read what I said. You need medicine to do an autopsy to find out why the fucker died.

>I'm not a pirate, I'm not a fighter, and I'm not trying to get a gig on 2Fast2Furious.
Nigga u dumb

>Some random podunk melon farmer isn't going to do anything if he knows that I just got some of his wares for free.
Not even my post you're responding to m8. I wish I had a campaign where all I talked to was random fucking commoners.

Okay, you kill me and then the rest of the party is instantly fucked due to having to deal with a flying, fire-breathing dragon while they're stuck climbing up a steep hill.

You win D&D, your players hate you and will probably never play with you again, but you "won D&D."

To play devil's advocate, charm person does this, but Suggestion and Dominate Person do not. Well, I don't think the latter doesn't, feel free to call me a faggot if that's incorrect. I know for a fact that the Suggestion spell makes sure the target thinks it was their idea in the first place. And either way, both spells are higher level and have even less uses per day.

>Okay, the king just so happens to have hitmen for enchanters and he's going to waste his resources looking for some lead that might not even be in the same zip code anymore?
If someone repeatedly uses charm magic on the populous they're gonna begin making wanted posters and circulating them among the local towns. You're a wanted criminal. You're gonna have to get out of the duchy and not go to that duchy again because your face was in someone's memory and they can extract that memory to know exactly what you look like for the fabricated wanted posters.

Literally photographic you with description in every guard house in the duchy. You along with a stack of murderers, necromancers, enchanters, thieves, and more.

>mom said you can't kill my character!!!

>The beauty of 5e is that you can be just as good as the Rogue if you decide to invest in having decent DEX.
Not because of how expertise works. Only Bards can actually get as good as rogues at stealth (if the rogue chooses to expertise in stealth).

You're always aware when you are forced to make a save on everything but divination. After the suggestion is done you are now in control of your faculties and aware you failed a save.

>Since when is it the mage's job to rush ahead of the party without any protection?

Since when is it the GM's job to personally fuck over someone in the party for using their class features as intended.

If the game gives me the ability to avoid having to roll climb checks like some shit-heel, I'm gonna fucking use it. If the party can't keep up then that's not my fucking problem. If the GM sees fit to make me out to be an example then they'll do so at the cost of everyone else's enjoyment and probably even the death of the campaign as a whole.

My job is to show up every week and play my character while the GM's job is to tell me what happens. It's not his job to punish me for doing something that the rules allow me to do, especially when it's obvious that he's butthurt that I didn't choose the guy who gets better at hitting shit.

Oh friend, everyone's a commoner when you can bend reality to your whims.

Man, you're trying really hard to be wrong, here. Please respond just so people can keep pointlessly shitting on you whe you obviously don't have the mental capacity to comprehend other viewpoints and experiences.

D&D 3.5 is a malignant brain tumour.

Guys, he's pretending to believe that crap. It isn't genuine, its bait. Have you no sense?

>Warrior and rogue climb the cliff face, because they have tools and are athletic people and not noodlemen

So the guys with the height advantage is just going to stand there while the Warrior and Rogue close the distance?

Do you even understand how difficult it is to climb a cliff face mate, it's not that simple and they'll probably be at a disadvantage since they're not only trying to climb a fucking cliff but people are also shooting at them.

>Ranger shoots faggot throwing boulders in his throat

With what?

You need two hands to shoot mate trying to shoot someone while hanging from a rope isn't necessarily that fucking easy.

Not to mention, from the vantage point, you'd pretty much have to deal with the fact that you're effectively shooting up a sheer cliff while the people throwing boulders would be able to roll boulders down without exposing themselves to your fire.

To put it another way, put something on the edge of a table, climb underneath a table and see how easily you hit it by throwing random objects straight up, like, at a 90 degree angle.

That's also not getting into the possibility that the ledge they're standing on juts out or if they're inside a cave or something.

Christ, martialfags really dump their INT in real life don't they?

>Slotless wizard stands there, expecting others to be useless and gets promptly flattened by the boulder

Who says I'm slotless?

Just because I'm out of 3rd level slots doesn't mean I don't have plenty of other spells at my disposal.

Really now? Hmm. I thought Suggestion was supposed to be the more limited but safer version of Dominate Person. Well, I'll keep playing it like I usually do, where the target never knows, but I stress that the action has to be reasonable and phrased to suit their world view.

Like, the example in the book. The person casting suggestion in my campaigns can't just say "Go give your horse to a peasant", they'd have to appeal to chivalry or make the horse seem like it's not worthy of them, etc. And it wouldn't work the same on everyone, because personality differences.

>use class features carelessly
>run out of them
>"gm is out to get me!"
>meanwhile the rest of the party solves all the problems without paying attention to dumb smug wizard
>probably tie him up when he runs out of slots again and bring him in for bounty he accumulated brainwashing random people

"I wear a mask."

or

"I wear a disguise."

or

"I use this spell that alters my appearence."

It's also not getting into the fact that even today, with modern equipment, getting a perfectly accurate description of some random person is difficult, especially if there are conflicting reports.

Seriously man, you're terrible at this.

+3/+4 is still fairly decent mate.

It's not necessarily the best but it'll get the job done.

No seriously, the dragon fries me and then what, he just leaves the 3-5 geared up martials to climb up his cliff and possibly raid his territory?

We're talking about a territorial creature here that looks at humanoids with the same disdain as most to the common cockroach. It's not going to just fry one guy and then leave the others be.

>Invisibility

That was actually my entire point with stealth checks, since invisibility doesn't replace them at all.

>It's also not getting into the fact that even today, with modern equipment, getting a perfectly accurate description of some random person is difficult, especially if there are conflicting reports.
This isn't with equipment. Magically you can extract a memory and perfectly recall a memory. Using fabricate and a high Craft (Painting) check you can make photographically accurate depictions of an individual.

And really, someone wearing a mask performing enchantments on the populous is actually going to get someone after them. Likely if I was GM I would after a certain amount of time have someone figure out that these were done by the same person (Same MO) and have the nobility put a bounty on your head, likely coordinating with others nearby. If brought dead the criminal's weight in silver seems fair.

This would put bounty hunters and opportunists after you.

Same thing would be done with any sufficiently pervasive criminal.

Descriptions of the disguises would be put out, and height/weight (things the disguises don't disguise).

If i'm a GM
>Do you even understand how difficult it is
A climbing check at disadvantage. No disadvantage if they make a good/interesting description of how they dodge boulders.

>You need two hands to shoot mate trying to shoot someone while hanging from a rope
there was no rope in the situation before.

>isn't necessarily that fucking easy.
An accuracy check at disadvantage. See previous. Also, special ammunition.

They'll still replay to my bait because they're idiots mate, I'm honestly curious to see if I can get this thread to 200+ posts.

>No disadvantage if they make a good/interesting description of how they dodge boulders.

How the fuck do you dodge a boulder that's rolling towards you while you're trying to scale a sheer cliff?

Are they fucking superman or something?

>there was no rope in the situation before.

So he literally can't fucking do anything then because he's using both his arms to remain on the cliff face.

>An accuracy check at disadvantage. See previous. Also, special ammunition.

Again, how the fuck is he shooting? Is he just telekinetically willing the bow to shoot for him with his goddamn psionic powers or something?

I'm bored, there's nothing to do and this guy is at least more entertaining than other shitposters right now.

>Are they fucking superman or something?
Yes.

>So he literally can't fucking do anything then because he's using both his arms to remain on the cliff face.
>Again, how the fuck is he shooting? Is he just telekinetically willing the bow to shoot for him with his goddamn psionic powers or something?

He stands below the cliff and provides covering fire.

>run out of them

Who says I ran out of spell slots?

At worse, I used up my third level slots but there's at least eight other levels, plus cantrips, that I could use mate.

Can you even count higher than your fingers, you dumb bastard?

>I'm also a level 20 wizard

At that point cliffs are the least of anyone's worries.

At level 10 and under? Yeah, you're burning half of your slots to do that.

>Who says I ran out of spell slots?
You, when you used all these flights, mind controls, knocks and other stuff. Have fun pinging that dragon with magic missiles.

>At worse, I used up my third level slots but there's at least eight other levels, plus cantrips, that I could use mate.
If it's ninth level, the fighter can leap 20ft in the air, the rogue can hide in plain sight and the ranger can ricochet the arrow off two cliffs right into monster throat.

>Can you even count higher than your fingers, you dumb bastard?
Yes.

It's like a ballet of idiocy. I can't look away.

Which is why I use spells to alter myself so I'm effectively a different person.

Plenty of those in my spell list and once I'm done, I got nothing to worry about.

Not to mention, you're assuming that memory itself isn't faulty or can lead to situations of false positives.

Think about it mate, how many times did you swear that you left your keys on the nightstand, only to find out that they were in your coat pocket the entire time.

In a dimly lit bar, after three or four pints, and more fun than you can literally remember the next morning, do you think anybody is going to be able to give an accurate account of their own fucking shoe size, let alone what some random guy looks like?

I'm a drifter mate, here today, gone tomorrow, and if someone's only after me because of payment, boom, I got like several tons of gold sitting around doing nothing that I can use to buy off their silence or something.

>Think about it mate, how many times did you swear that you left your keys on the nightstand, only to find out that they were in your coat pocket the entire time.
I don't think you understand. This isn't misremembering. There is magic that allows perfect recall. Once he has the memory he can see you perfectly in his mind because of how the spell works.

How exactly will you bribe anyone who's hunting you for being a rogue enchanter?

They won't be convinced because you've dumped Cha skills because they're useless, and they can just get your money when they kill you.

If you try and charm them, they're likely prepared for it, because they came hunting for an enchanter.

And all this trouble just so you could ask a drunk in a bar for some info, when a Bard could've gotten it in seconds.

What do you do if anyone ever passes their save? If you want to be safe you're stuck casting on commoners who can't make the perception DC to see you're disguised AND can't pass their save. Even then someone is gonna roll a 20 and look at you funny after you casted.

>Yes.

Then why not fly, ya daft bastard?

In fact, why even sweat the details at all, you're practically invulnerable.

Also, the Rogue's not fucking superman, he's Jimmy fucking Olsen. Why? Because he can't do anything. Worthless cunt.

>He stands below the cliff and provides covering fire.

Again, firing up a sheer cliff face to hit a target that's obscured by ledges and caves.

Also, how fucking long is this goddamn cliff? Because a bow can only fire so far and starts taking massive penalties the longer the distance becomes.

Oh, wow, thank you.

I appreciate the compliment mate.

>Also, the Rogue's not fucking superman, he's Jimmy fucking Olsen. Why? Because he can't do anything. Worthless cunt.
Dodge check. At the advantage, if described entertainingly.

>Again, firing up a sheer cliff face to hit a target that's obscured by ledges and caves.
Accuracy check.

Again, just burning my 3rd level slots, got plenty more spells to use if the situation arises.

Holy shit, do you have like 5 INT IRL pally?

>You, when you used all these flights, mind controls, knocks and other stuff. Have fun pinging that dragon with magic missiles.

I can understand flight but why would I need to use mind controls, knocks, and other stuff when the situation at hand calls for climbing a fucking cliff?

Are you assuming that I'm mind-controlling random lizards? That I'm knocking on cliff walls for hidden doors? Fucking shit mate, you are fucking horrible at logic.

>If it's ninth level, the fighter can leap 20ft in the air, the rogue can hide in plain sight and the ranger can ricochet the arrow off two cliffs right into monster throat.

Oh boy, how do I say this.

You're fucking stupid mate.

>20ft.

How are you jumping 20 ft. in the air?

There's like one Fighter archtype that increases athletics but the boon is like an extra foot per point in your STR modifier.

Even then, that only works on long jumps, not jumping straight up into the air like the fucking Hulk or something.

GTFO!

>hide in plain sight

First off, Rangers get hide in plain sight, you stupid cunt!

Second, Rangers get it at 10th level, you dumb arsehole.

Lastly, it only works if you spend a good minute and have access dirt and leaves and shit, which you won't have access to if you're climbing a bloody cliff while dodging fucking boulders, you idiotic twat!

>ricochet the arrow

Okay now you're just going full on retard.

If he's hiring mercenaries, they're only hired guns.

Everyone has their price and lets face it, nobody wants to die and have their soul trapped in a shard of gemstone for all of eternity so it's really in everyone's best interest to just take the money and go on about their fucking business.

>how
>why
>how
>but how
10th level.

You can't roll a 20 on skill checks you stupid shit!

So if the rogue describes his actions like a bad saturday morning cartoon, he gets an advantage even when he's literally at the most disadvantage as a person can literally be while climbing a cliff face?

Do you give them a bonus if they're the fucking Wally Bear and the no gang gang? What if they're Scooby Doo? Will you let him just warp to the top because he said he ate a bloody scooby snack?

>So if the rogue describes his actions like a bad saturday morning cartoon, he gets an advantage even when he's literally at the most disadvantage as a person can literally be while climbing a cliff face?
Yes.

Do you give them a bonus if they're the fucking Wally Bear and the no gang gang?
That would be entertaining.

What if they're Scooby Doo? Will you let him just warp to the top because he said he ate a bloody scooby snack?
if they're the gang from Scooby Doo, then it's a paranormal investigation campaign and climbing a cliff face isn't as important as dealing with what's there. So yes.

Even then, the shit you're describing is downright im-fucking-possible to do.

Skill Focus, Signature Skill.

>Even then, the shit you're describing is downright im-fucking-possible to do.
I'm the GM. 10th level characters are already mythical hero tier, they don't need feat tax to do awesome things.

So basically, martials are only good at making fools of themselves just to get the same shit I do with my spells.

Good to know that, next time I decide to play a martial I'll invest in face paint and poofy felt buttons so I can gleam that extra bonus advantage roll since I'd be making balloon animals as I dodge shit like Neo from the Matrix on speed.

Roll 20 on their save you retard.

>I'm 17th level guys
They send a loyal 17th caster after you.

Okay, then why doesn't my fly spell allow me to fly faster than the enemy is capable of hitting?

If I'm a mythical hero, I should be able to say that I just zip to the top of the mountain long before any given threat even realizes that I just flew past 'em.

If the martials get to break the rules because their mythical hero tier then why can't I?

Even then, why would they roll a save?

As far as they know, I'm just an ordinary bloke walking in for a pint or somethin'.

For fucks sake, you can fool the average person if you save your head and dye it a different color, I'd imagine changing my entire facial structure would be much more difficult for someone to notice just because.

Cool, why should I give a shit?

>I cast a spell to solve all my problems
>When I run out of spells, we take a long rest so I can get them all back
>I've never been caught in a situation without my spells in my life
>I never stay in one place and make no connections with people, using magic to exploit and manipulate them
So this guy is a narcissistic sociopath, good to know. Have fun finding a decent game.