Have you ever been in a situation where the paladin is significantly less Good than another member of the party...

Have you ever been in a situation where the paladin is significantly less Good than another member of the party, even though they're both LG on paper?

(The other player is a knight, and I'm pretty sure they're RPing Jeanne d'Arc or something.)

Yes, usually because of a fundamental disagreement about the nature of the alignment.

Just play 5e so people who want the paladin powers can have them without the fuss.

Now I want to play as a LG paladin goth kid wearing that suit of armor to the left.

No, smites are earned by hitting yourself in the dick with a hammer. It's tradition.

What about female paladins? Do they hammer their own groins or do they have to wed someone, consolidate their assets, and hammer theirs?

>poorly fitted mail
>cool

It's a metaphor for the self-punishment involved in playing a paladin, not literal dickhitting. Except when it is.

stop using alignment systems for children and roleplay

I would sooner die.

Yes, because my players usually figure out a bit of background that informs their character's beliefs and methods, and then pick which ever alignment suits that character the best. Doing it the other way around is really, really dumb and can result in a lot of stupid fuckery.

LG Fighter who went through several nasty campaigns but somehow remained a decent person has different beliefs and methods compared to the LG Paladin of a nice dude god raised by a monastic order who is now only just stepping out into the wider world.

It is a good thing if different characters of the same alignment behave differently. Alignment isn't even that useful aside from being a quick reference to your character's barest general disposition, or for a couple of spells, or for categorizing supernatural beings.

Oh jeez I hope no one looked at historical precedent and made self flagelatiom a thing in their setting. Oh who am I kidding, its been done.

Oh, you will.

Yes.

However--most of the time, when there's a feeling of this happening, it isn't because the paladin is actually doing something wrong. Most of this sensation comes from binary, relative morality coming into contact with absolutist morality.

If a god--an absolute authority and reference point for morality--says it's good, then it's good.

The primary cause in alignment confusion in D&D comes from this. You have what should be absolute authority and morality, driven by a transcendent source, that isn't simply because the guys who wrote up the universe and the players are by-and-large post-modern thinkers.

Happens with every alignment and class. In my game, both my character and one of the others are listed as Neutral Good.
Over the campaign he's participated in the murder of 19 dwarves to protect a friend of his (a friend which had just tried to kill one of said dwarves), he helped instigate and showed no remorse for a war of genocide against the elves, and he's repeatedly sent peasant soldiers to their deaths so that he can swoop in and claim glory by beating the weakened enemy to death by himself.
He's done all this while still proclaiming himself to be neutral good (something the GM) agrees with. Said GM also threatened to force-change my alignment to chaotic evil because I tortured a terrorist for information.

The question still remains, even if it's good instead of Good.

But that's just because your group sucks.

>paladin
>female
Kek

>pic
Only faggots wear chainmail.

>not lamellar master race
Step it up, senpai.

>Armor
Bitches

That's why I, more or less, ignore alignment requirements. You can be LG paladin who helps the weak and smites the evil and a big ol' knight in shining armor. Or you could play a LN DEUS VULT REMOVE UNHOLY KEBAB pally who is less interested in making the world a better place and more intrested in purging the heretics, which is more fun in my opinion.

Ironically, my LN is still the most moral one since I have a CN Rogue, CN Sorcerer, AND CN Barbarian, a chick who didn't even pick one and might as well be a spectator with dice, a TN Druid who recklessly casts AOE spells at us just to hit the enemy..We didn't get a good character until we took on a CG Cleric.

Define Good without dictionary and wiki

Following a generally accepted code of morality.

>Removing kebab
>Not lawful good
It's like you believe God isn't a Serb

Since when has genociding elves been evil?

Way i do it is 'What does the character put most worth in'

>Good
Puts more worth in the welfare and livelihood of others. Generally Selfless

>Evil
Puts the most worth in themselves and are generally selfcentered

>Neutral
Places others and self at equal value with slight leeway. Caring, but wont do anything crazy for strangers

Then Lawful/Chaotic depends on how they follow the laws of the land. Therefore, someone like The Punisher is Chaotic Good

you do realize you need some slack in the mail so you can move, right? It's not spandex, contrary to how most artists draw it.

I'm going to save your image and call it Dying_Like_A_Cocktail_Sausage.jpg

I'm actually looking forward to doing an 'idgaf' CG wood elf pally.

I have not but I have played a game where the LG paladin plays it as 'mean and antagonistic'. The game didn't last long though.

In a general sense, I find this screencap a good place to start for how to handle LG. It is important to realize that some alignments aren't as restricted as some people think they have to be.

Personally I'd like to see the "Soldier of God, not Soldier of Good, fuck heretics" archetype as an anti divine type class, like one that will whoop an enemy cleric or druid any time without truly extraordinary methods. And I mean for example, even if a druid summons a horde of polymorphing pixies, he should be able to still beat the foul pagan 9 times out of 10, unless the druid is extraordinary clever, resourceful, or plucky.

The flipside of the anti arcane ranger of 3e.

>idgaf
>Paladin
If you don't care you can't be a paladin.

In 5e:

LG: You are good by measure of society. Thus in Nazi Germany, you are LG if you round up da jooz.
CG: You are good because you follow your conscience. If you kill the jooz with a clear conscience, you are still CG.

Yes in 5e you can fit the description of CG and LE at once.

LG angsty Aasimar paladin of a deity of redemption was even more crooked than my LE Asmodean Inquisitor, and more or less was just "Only evil to evil things."

In fairness, the player actually willingly had his pally LEAVE THE PARTY and become an NPC when his morale broke, and he's since abandoned his quest presumably to try and work out his own personal hangups after he felt that he let a child he cared for die, and actually turned down the opportunity to become an antipaladin but remain a much more powerful PC.

Now my deity has tasked me with tracking him down, breaking his legs, and returning him to the court of hell so that he can be brainwashed into an antipaladin instead of changing voluntarily. This is actually pretty neat because my character actually identified with and sympathized with the paladin more than much of the rest of the party, as the both of us prioritized our devotion to "law" than anything else.

Nothing you described suggests you can be both at the same time unless you describe two different unrelated actions which is a bit obvious, innit?

Not specifically party members, but in a forum RP i'm doing atm there's some Paladin NPC's who are arguably less Good people than one or two of my party members

Paladins in my setting are from a foreign land and are the highest rank given by the Vatican. They're sent out across the world to execute people accused of heresy.
Unfortunately, in the past, some paladins decided that their duties were the most important in the world and would disrupt the peace by executing the person in the middle of the street, with it one time being a local noble who had been having an affair. The guards to the noble tried fighting back, but the entire group got killed for assaulting an agent of The Lord. Despite tensions mounting, no war came out of it, but town guards are on edge when Paladins pass through towns, hoping they don't start executing in the street. Even the two paladins met by the party in my game were out to kill two of the players, one for being a vampire and the other for being a priestess to another religion, right in the middle of a marketplace.

This is why faith is center to a Paladin. Faith doesn't mean how hard you want your god to be real, or that your religion is the rightest. Faith in this instance is the sheer belief in something without substantial proof or grounding.

Good is absolutely subjective, because in this example, what was good for the German people was not good for the jews. So what is to say what is truly good for all people? Should all people even be saved? Is condemning people to death something that can even be considered good in any situation.

When a paladin acts they must have absolute faith that what they are doing is the right thing, and that this is how they are held accountable. Tying a God into it for a moral justification is honestly irrelevant. This is where they ultimately get the moral code. They justify it how they wish. Most choose divine power as there is little to question it. However, ultimately it falls on the judgment of the paladin himself. Is murdering the followers of an ideology really going to make the world better? Could there be another way to solve this issue? Have all the alternatives been looked into?

When a Paladin acts he must have no doubt. He must be confident and have faith that his actions are right and good. They are just. If he bars the gates to a building full of dangerously contagious people as it burns to save countless more lives, he must have faith that this action is for the best. If he chooses the long road to risk himself and heal every last person, he must have faith in his actions that they are for the best.

Most importantly, you must have faith in the paladin. A paladin should never resort to justifying the means with the ends, and commenting atrocities in the name of good. They must hold themselves accountable in their actions. Answer to something greater than themselves, again most choose the divine. Again it ultimately falls on the paladin and their faith in what they are doing.

>Nothing you described suggests you can be both at the same time

Hm? Lawful Good is "you are good by the measure of your society."
Chaotic Good is "you are good by the dictates of your conscience."
Lawful Evil is "you take what you want within the limits of your personal code."

Absolutely zero of that is contradictory. You can, in fact, take what you want within the limits of your personal code, which are those of society, or compatible with the rules of society, and do so with a clean conscience. "Follow your conscience" is among the most waffle-headed of prescriptions.

We have essentially 3 alignments that can always be justified, no matter what you may want to do:
LN: Follow your personal code (identical to "follow your whimsy")
CG: Follow your conscience (identical to "follow your whimsy")
CN: Follow your whimsy

So basically any char can be, with identical behavior, described as LN, CG, or CN. The majority of characters, if not all, can simultaneously be described as fitting into LG or LE. The distinction is a coat of paint, not any difference of character.

>So what is to say what is truly good for all people?
I have faith in that what I am doing is right. Its totally irrelevant. The parasite thinks he is only taking what is his.

>Is condemning people to death something that can even be considered good in any situation.

If not, the game basically can't function, nor can society. Not to mention that that sounds dangerously objective.

>When a paladin acts they must have absolute faith that what they are doing is the right thing,

This is akin to putting the fox in charge of the coop so long as things are subjective and its based off confidence (faith).

In fact, basing it off faith ensures that those who question themselves and wonder whether they are doing the right thing will be the first to fall, for faith that leaves room for self doubt and self appraisal is the weakest variety, while the mind that is too small to doubt has the greatest faith.

>Is murdering the followers of an ideology really going to make the world better?

Probably.

> Could there be another way to solve this issue? Have all the alternatives been looked into?

Thinking otherwise diminishes your faith.

>A paladin should never resort to justifying the means with the ends, and commenting atrocities in the name of good.

Strong faith means anything can be justified, period. Nonsensical weak beliefs like "hurr is killing bad guys the right thing to do? what about orc babies?" leads to weak faith, leads to falling. In your scenario.

If you have strong faith, none of this is a concern, ever. A lot of deities really do have a dogma like "kill the bad guys," and if you don't even need a deity, simple faith in "kill the bad guys" suffices.

>Again it ultimately falls on the paladin and their faith in what they are doing.

Fortunately, faith can justify any level of atrocity.

Always remember, questioning yourself, and faith, are diametrically opposed on the most fundamental level.

>Strong faith means anything can be justified, period. Nonsensical weak beliefs like "hurr is killing bad guys the right thing to do? what about orc babies?" leads to weak faith, leads to falling. In your scenario.

>If you have strong faith, none of this is a concern, ever. A lot of deities really do have a dogma like "kill the bad guys," and if you don't even need a deity, simple faith in "kill the bad guys" suffices.

This is exactly what I meant by you must have faith in the paladin, or faith in yourself. Faith that you won't be an ends justify the means asshole who is trying to be evil but get away with it. You must believe that when you see a Paladin they are the best thing to be around, they will protect you. Because a Paladin should hold themselves accountable to do the right thing instead of justifying their means to just kill who they want.

This is why paladins are a hard class for many people to wrap their heads around, it takes actual self control to play one.

submitted too early
This also confuses the distinction between faith and zealotry

>Faith that you won't be an ends justify the means asshole who is trying to be evil but get away with it

Yes, exactly! Since I have that faith, I don't need to worry about it.

>You must believe that when you see a Paladin they are the best thing to be around, they will protect you.

Well, unless you're one of the bad people who need to be exterminated. That's the cool thing about faith based powers and no deity -- the faith based paladin only knows one form of sin: doubt. Questioning yourself means you have less faith, ergo its always better to stay the course and not consider, even for a moment, that you may be wrong.

>Because a Paladin should hold themselves accountable to do the right thing instead of justifying their means to just kill who they want.

Well no, because "holding yourself accountable" means you lack faith that your actions were right.

>This is why paladins are a hard class for many people to wrap their heads around

We are talking solely about yours, or Mr Rage's, inane faith based, nontheistic paladin, who instead of being motivated by good or evil, is SOLELY motivated by his own lack of self awareness.

ANY slaughter, any level of violence, any level of cruelty is justified by... merely refusing to consider that it may be bad.

Its difficult to fuck up when playing a faith based paladin. Questioning whether you are still doing the right thing, however, is a fuckup, while slaughtering all who stand in your way is not.

Always have faith that you are doing the right thing, because doing the right thing is a distant, vanishing second to merely believing you are in the right.

>This also confuses the distinction between faith and zealotry

Zealotry is, 100%, indisputably, a form of faith, but not all faith is zealotry.

Faith is, My jump will result in a safe landing.
Zealotry is I will MAKE my jump result in a safe landing.

However in this instance I think we are dealing with neither at this point. I think we are dealing with trying to simply justify your actions to do whatever you want. so lets break this down

Paladin must do good
Paladin must believe do good
Paladin must not do bad to do good
Paladin must be accountable for oneself
Paladin must check thine self to make sure paladin on path
Paladin must not believe do bad is doing good

Faith in this instance has never been religious fervor, its more or less been a more optimistic version of hope. If I hold myself accountable, and do what is best, it will make a better world.
This stringent, I CANNOT QUESTION MYSELF, is pure zealotry. Its an easy mistake to make as zealoutry is fueled by faith, but faith itself is malleable. "Am I doing the right thing?" is completely permissible as it show you are still following your path of "Do the right thing" you are holding yourself accountable of your actions because your faith in going what is right is important. If you begin to rationalize and use zeal to do what you think is good, but is actually bad, questioning your motives will bring you back onto the path. You can question faith all you want, you will remain resolute as that is what faith is. I REALLY HOPE doing good will help people.

So what you have been trying to say is "WELL I BELIEVE REALLY REALLY HARD ITS COOL FOR ME TO KILL YOU" in a similar flippant attitude that people go " Well if god isn't real then I guess its A-OK to murder people"

this is where you have to have faith in what a paladin is. A Paragon of justice and righteousness. A light in the dark. If you feel the way you do, that a paladin can just traipse into a situation and DUES VULT his way to an impressive kill count, you lack the faith in the paladin I was talking about. You just think he is evil.

I get this all the time in paladin discussions.
>IF THE PALADIN DOESN'T HAVE A GOD HE PRAYS TO THEN WHATS STOPPING HIM FROM BELIEVE THAT KILLING EVERYONE IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO?

faith

>Faith is, My jump will result in a safe landing.
Glad we agree.

>Paladin must do good

I have faith that I am doing good

>Paladin must believe do good

I have faith that I am doing good

>Paladin must not do bad to do good

I have faith that I am doing only good and never doing anything bad

>Paladin must be accountable for oneself

I have faith that I have always done good, thus I need never question anything I do.

>Paladin must check thine self to make sure paladin on path

Paladins are based off having faith in themselves, right? Therefore the "check" is always going to check out.

>Paladin must not believe do bad is doing good

I have faith, remember? I'm not doing anything bad. Killing the jooz is use of a good means (killing jooz) to achieve good ends (a world free of evil).

>Faith in this instance has never been religious fervor,

Never said it was.

>If I hold myself accountable, and do what is best, it will make a better world.

Faith, my man! I am doing what is best. That's faith.

> pure zealotry.

Not at all.

>Faith is, My jump will result in a safe landing.
>Zealotry is I will MAKE my jump result in a safe landing.

I don't need to "make" anything. Killing the evil ones is a good means to a good end. I need never question... for I have faith.

>"Am I doing the right thing?" is completely permissible

Sure, but it indicates you have MUCH WEAKER FAITH. "Am I doing the right thing?" is ALWAYS a sign of weaker faith than truly believing "I am doing the right thing." Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

>but is actually bad
>questioning your motives will bring you back onto the path.

Subjective morality my man! No gods or kings, only ego. There is no "actually bad," only moral subjectivism.

>I REALLY HOPE doing good will help people.

Sounds like you lack faith!

>WELL I BELIEVE REALLY REALLY HARD

Believing really hard IS faith.

But that IS faith.

That's your problem. This isn't comparable to " Well if god isn't real then I guess its A-OK to murder people," because real people aren't powered by blind, unthinking devotion.

Questioning yourself can literally end your powers, so you must never question yourself. And the less you question yourself (as a super powered warrior who answers only to his own subjective morals), the more likely you are to do depraved things.

That's what faith is about my man.

You have shown me the light, lets go murder people.

I think the irony here is your faith that faith allows you do do anything you want and my faith that holding yourself accountable to your believes is important. Bother are subjectively right in terms of faith.

we both have faith. The difference is your ideology is very selfish, and self serving ( they are different) I can just will myself to be right fuck you I am god.

but as I said before. Whats to stop a paladin from going on murder rampages because they just can? Faith that they wont.

Its not "just because he can," its "because he's convinced its the right thing to do." And killing all xyz is a perfectly reasonable belief for someone to get in D&Dland.

All he needs to have perfect faith is:
1. an idea that impels him to use his class abilities (usually violently)
2. blind arrogance (faith)

questioning yourself doesn't end your powers. In fact worshiping your god doesn't grat you your powers either. The gods grant you powers because you embody their will. They sponsor you, not employ you. You can have no religious faith in gods and they will still grant you their blessing because your actions.
if you pray to your god to save lives they might go "oh neato, nice thoughts." but if you go " the gods wont do jack shit, lets go save people" the gods will go " I like this, they are going what I embody" whammo powers

But as I said before, theres no need to adhere to being good or saving lives faith is a clean bill to do what you want, even though I've been trying to hammer into you that you must have faith, likewise, to not do that.

You continue to confuse faith with zealotry. 40k is not a good indication of faith.

and the counter faith of having faith that they wont become a murderous tool of anything truely undeserving.

However you keep twisting it to be ANYTHING CAN BE UNDESERVING
while yes, you are right, you must also have faith the paladin will only unleash his wrath upon the truly deserving. get what I am saying?

>questioning yourself doesn't end your powers.

its likely to harm them, with no gain.

>You continue to confuse faith with zealotry.

Nope, not once. All zealotry is faith. Read a fucking dictionary. But not all faith is zealotry.

and the counter faith of having faith that they wont become a murderous tool of anything truely undeserving.

They might. Faith has NO MORAL ASPECT WHATSOEVER.

>you must also have faith the paladin will only unleash his wrath upon the truly deserving

You'd better, or else he might FUCKING KILL YOU. If you have total faith in yourself as being in the right, then anyone who criticizes you is probably in the wrong. Think "The Flawless Host" from 40k, they'd make fine Mr. Rage paladins.

>get what I am saying?

I got what you're saying the moment I responded to you.

>while yes, you are right, you must also have faith the paladin will only unleash his wrath upon the truly deserving. get what I am saying?
Not the guy you were talking to, but why? What's the context here?

The other guy's point appears to be that faith can apply to anything, so faith-based paladins are literally just clerics to anything they feel like: You can have a paladin of murdering children just as easily as a paladin of protecting children. Your counter is that their faith maintains their faith in the specific child protecting direction, but I haven't seen you explain why that would be.

As a religious individual I take offense to your statement that faith means you never question yourself, and carry on blindly. That is not faith in my experience. Faith is a bit like a test really, in my mind you develop faith because you have questions, because you want to know. Your looking for answers and when yoy rhink you may have found the answers to the question you have you think it over and you try acting on the hope its right, if things work then you see your faith as justified, and you develop more faith to continue acting accourding to that answer. When you encounter things that seem contradictory or that you dont know or undestand these are not reasons to abandon your faith out right, and they arent horrible things you should ignore by burrying your head in the sand, these are new questions, new opportunities to test and afirm your faith by going and seeking answers and acting accourding to the faith you have with the hope that your beliefs and actions will work out. Faith is not about not questioning yourself, its not about blind obedience, its not about stupid mindless drones who just ignore reality.its about people who want to find answers, that find something they believe in, and work to overcome their doubts and difficulties and make the best of things. Faith evolves.

Yes but only because he was stupid

>paladin decided he was the only one righteous enough to hold civil discourse with the leader of a large syndicate of highwaymen and bandits.
>The meeting goes ahead better than expected.
>The meeting ends in beers rather than brawls
>good Paladining
>return to town to consult the party
>"Went great. We had beers and I agreed to sack the town but I don't know what that means"
>evil wizard takes pity on the stupid paladin and shows him how to negotiate with bandits

>As a religious individual I take offense to your statement

Glad I could help offend you, but we weren't talking about religious faith, just totally empty, totally subjective, offensive to none, non denominational faith.

>glad I could help offend you.

Well played sir. Fair enough I suppose, its just that normally when I hear these sort of things its from various co workers and relatives trying to pick a bone with the religious guy. I suppose I let some of my personal bias bleed in and let out a little of my real world frustrations bleed out onto the internet. Im pretty sure we all find catharsis venting here, and thats why the board is always filled with salt. I may have over reacted, or acted without considering the situation until I undestand it fully, but nevertheless I stand by what I said, faith is not just blind belief, and if you are afraid to question it , it isnt really faith.

the guy's position was that he thinks paladins aren't:
A) powered by objective goodness or objective anything
B) powered by gods

Therefore, they are powered by... ??? unicorn farts? No, faith. Faith in... what the fuck ever. He is literally powered by his random ass hot opinions. About, well, anything, its subjective. A credo of punishing people who think leggings are pants, or gingers, are both fully acceptable, and a guy who has total faith in something totally divorced from culture and religion strikes me as more likely to be a maniac.

But since you are not a cancerous namefag who has shat up threads for years with your toxic presence I will listen to your perspective...

Anyway I won't be judgmental about this topic (for you), but I gotta ask. Do you really view faith in God, and faith in... whatever, to be 100% equivalent? Or does the faith in ____ have to be ... something in particular?

I'm not talking about paladin etc, I'm talking about in general. I don't understand how one can translate faith in a God-ordered universe to faith in ______ and have them be equivalent.

I'll be honest since you asked and I appreciate how you'very gone about this. I do think there is a difference between faith in God and faith in X. That being said I really dont think its right for me to treat someone poorly and insult them because they dont share my beliefs and I dont understand theirs. I've gotten a lot of crap for my beliefs over the years , and I think it would be un-Christ like of me to treat them like that( i know saYing this after I got but hurt and came on strong may seem silly, but its an ideal kind of thing, I never claimed to be perfect) . I believe in rational discussion of beliefs and respect for others, since I want people to respect me and be willing to have a rational discussion with me rather than just saying "you believe in god so your stupid" or "you arent my religion so your stupid" without anything to back it up. Ive had good friends of other faiths who are respectful and can handle a dialogue like mature adults, Ive known people of my own faith who I dislike because they can't seem to live our values and give us a bad name. I believe in god, for me the answers come from god, but it was a long very personal process to get there. I hate having people disparage my faith, so I try to be respectful of others ( within reason). I tried to take my opinion 9n what faith is, a belief and a willingness to act on that belief without all the answers or absolute knowledge, and phrase it in a non denominational way that could apply generally. If my buddy tells me he believes his ancestors are watching over him and he is the reincarnation of one of his great grandparents (literally heard this sort of thing while I was in korea) then I may not agree with him, i may try to open a dialogue if i feel it wouldnt offend too much, but im not going to laugh and tell him he is daft.

For the record, and I think possibly the answer to the question you were asking cause I may have misunderstood you the first time, in dnd or things like it personally i think clerics and paladins should have a god and not just general faith cause it makes more sense to me with how they work in universe as I understand it, but if someone at the table is all I can be a godless faith cleric, im not going to start a huge fight over it cause it will just break up the group, and nobody wins that sort of thing anyway. I'll give him a shot, and if he sucks well I wont play with him in future games.

I may have misunderstood/just gone on a tangent twice. If you are asking me what about faith in say, the evil of redheads, then yeah thats pretty ridiculous. But if its faith in the inherent good of the universe, or that doing the right thing is good karma or something, then that seems more reasonable. Faith is always kinda in context of culture if not religion as far as i can see. If those players are just saying I work off faith, without specifying that faith, thats just really lazy role playing, and they may just be roll players who want the abilities. I wont stop a man from saying general faith in a game, but I do ask that he explain what that faith is and how it effects his character, and how he came to that belief. Otherwise its just dice rolls. If he says its in something that makes him seem like a nutjob, then thats just bad character building. Or good depending on your prospective I guess, but I would say bad.

So did any of these answer you question or did I miss the mark entirely.