If you could remake the Horus Heresy and choose what legions were on each side...

Fucking moron.

There's hints of a civil war between the AL, Omegon does seem more the humanitarian of the two. But when it turns I to AL vs AL no one wins, especially the readers.

I know there are hints of it but since its the Alpha Legion everything always has to be super fucking vague and mysterious so we never really know whats going on. I'd make the civil war more explicit at least for us the readers.

I always liked the Idea of a less structured Heresy. Where some of the Primarchs didn't really commit to the 2 pre-determined sides and it ended up just being a massive civil war. Something like this:

Loyal to the Emperor and Terra:
>The Imperial Truth and the Emperor's dream for the future.
Imperial Fists
Iron Hands
Raven Guard
Salamanders
Alpha Legion

Loyal to Horus and Chaos:
>Horus/Lorgar's vision to turn humanity to the primordial truth.
Sons of Horus
Emperor's Children
World Eaters
Word Bearers
Iron Warriors

Loyal to the Alliance of the New Order:
>The Imperium must be reformed. The Emperor is a tyrant who must be shown the error of his ways
Ultramarines
Dark Angels
Blood Angels

Loyal to the Path of Ascension:
>Humanity must ascend and become a fully psychic race so that it can defeat chaos
Thousand Sons
White Scars

Renegade:

Night Lords
>loyal to no one. Curze dreams of bringing absolute justice to all of humanity, his father and brother's included

Death Guard
>Ostensibly on the side of the Warmaster, the Death Guard are obsessed with destroying Magnus and his Psychic legion. More than happy to kill other traitors that get in their way.

Space Wolves
>Ostensibly loyal to the Emperor but unwilling to return to Terra to defend it. Russ seeks vengeance against Magnus and Johnson, as well as the traitors

Switch Raven Guard and Blood Angels, then it's perfect.

Whitescars stay fucking loyalist and finally get the recognition they deserve, dammit.

Having both the Ambivalence Marines and Worst Primarch Worst Legion go traitor seems a bit much. I'd say either/or.

From the "both sides need to be equally qualified" perspective, it would probably end up being Lion El'Jonson's jolly band of jerkwads going traitor, because the heresy already has Iron Warriors as the token tech-savvy legion, taking up the IH's spot. Dark Angels and their Ravenwing are, for better or worse, the only military force with a noteworthy fast attack doctrine and would thus be perfect mirrorforce for the space bikergang with moustaches.

I can get behind the NL/RG exchange, due to aforementioned reasons not so much behind DG/IH exchange.

Yeah that makes sense, actually. The only reason I had Sanguinius with Guilleman and Johnson is because the 3 of them seem to have had mutual respect for one another. Whereas Guilleman and Johnson would probably see Corax's strategies as being cowardly or too complex.

Who takes DG's place then

Lion'el has a thing for strategy, and is in no position to judge others for keeping in the dark.

Dark Angels.

Blood Angels switch with World Eaters
Raven Guard switch with Night Lords
Dark Angels switch with Death Guard

Loyalists keep Iron Hands out of pity and to have a designated Techmarine chapter on their side.

I don't know that much about the HH-era legions, but out of curiosity why are White Scars with Thousand Sons? They never struck me as those sorts.

So far that gives us

>Loyalists
Night Lords
White Scars
World Eaters
Iron Hands
Death Guard

>Traitor
Blood Angels
Iron Warriors (probably)
Raven Guard
Dork Angels

What about the rest? I'm thinking LW/SoH stay loyal and Horus takes on the role Sanguinius had in canon.

Khan is a very powerful psyker who essentially ignored the edict of Nikaea and continued using librarians. Magnus was also one of the only Primarch's he was bros with and Khan viewed the Emperor as foolish and ultimately just another tyrant

Roboute, Lion, and Sanguinus(minus the secret keeping) were all stupidly loyal to the Emperor. Ironically the people who would be the most into the Alliance of new Order would be Pertuarbo, Mortarion and Angron who had all explicitly called the Emperor another dick ass Tyrant like on their worlds.

That's one angry, bitter, and resentment filled alliance of people who just want freedom from tyranny.

Whitescars are a very spiritual chapter at heart. They have a similarly esoterical relationship with their homeplanet as the Space Wolves, but because Khan's Kool Kids are actually sophisticated and not superstitious idiots from a backwater world, they were much more open to the ideas of what the Superfurries considered the cultivation of Witchcraft.

At the council of Nikaea did the Whitescars' psykers support Magnus in his trial, and it is said that Jagathai Khan and Maggy Nuts were very big buddies.

>Loyalists
Imperial Fists
Ultramarines
White Scars
Iron Hands
Space Wolves
Night Lords
Death Guard
World Eaters
Salamanders

>Traitors
Word Bearers
Iron Warriors
Thousand Sons
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Raven Guard
Lunar Wolves/Sons of Horus/Black Legion
Emperor's Children
Alpha Legion

Sanguinius' role is split up among the loyalists:
Angron is the superstronk martyr
Vulkan the idol protector of mankind
Guilliman is the charismatic diplomat

Horus stays as the ever-jealous second-in-command of Sanguinius and that's where the AU heresy actually fails - Because at the climax of the Siege of Terra does Horus stage an assault on Sanguinius' life, trying to play it off as an Imperial assault and then taking all the credit when he leads the troops of Chaos to victory. Alternatively, he realises the error of his ways and tries to make amends by ending the heresy from the top. But he ends up failing, but causing the cracks in Sanguinius' armour and weakening him enough as to allow Big E to smack his winged babbiboi around a bit. The dying words of Horus, the Emperor's most beloved son, will be "I am sorry, father - I thought I could surpass you, but I couldn't even surpass my brother."

Horus is then revered as a martyr of the Imperium, but Abaddon the Shitspoiler takes control over the indoctrinated LW/SoH and reforms them as the "Black Legion", although there's a severe schism in the legion and a sizeable portion turns loyalist, again.

I'd do one more switcharound just because.
I suggest Imperial Fists/Thousand Sons, because it would be fun to watch IF and IW forced to fight for the same side, and because Magnus did nothing wrong.

>Khan is a very powerful psyker

No he's not.

Yeah he is. Read Scar's. He's all about shamanism and hiding his abilities.

If the Dark Angels go full-traitor, doesn't that just make them even *more* redundant as a faction? They go from 'riding around on our rock looking for traitors cause totally secrets guys' to...er...what?
Do they still have their civil war that blows up the planet, and now ride around on a rock making random assaults? That's something, I guess...

Loyalist LW legionnaires are allowed to found the Lunar Wolves chapter at the second founding as well as a small amount of successor chapters, however they are under intense watch by imperial officials and are fleet based. They develop a special hatred and intense enthusiasm in fighting Black Legion, the way that OU Dark Angels fight Fallen, but it's an open secret in the Imperium and it basically reduces the standing from "what are these unreliable arseholes up to?" to "Oh, great, there's Black Legion pirates going around some backwater moons and our Lunar Wolves relief left our strategic assets undefended to go chase after them. Somebody please smack those fucking niggers in the head so they get their shit together" while simultaneously being highly effective against any sort of Black Legion incursion. They basically become superbuddies with Cadia and have merry pasttimes in kicking the shit out of Abaddon's bookclub.

It would also put Space Wolves and Thousand Sons side by side, which would be yet another very painful alliance on the loyalist's side.

This might be a great theme for the AU heresy or an overdone trope wherein the true struggle of the loyalists was to get their priorities straight.

However, then we are essentially left with no fortification/siege guys on the loyalist side.

The Iron Warriors are literally perfect in that they are both bunkerguys and AdMechfags. However that means that we need two other legions with their capabilities on the loyalist side to make sure there's a proper mirroring.

The close combat mirror isn't that much of an issue: Blood Angels are very Hand-to-hand and with Fast-attack plus designated Terminator deployment tactics do the Derp Angels fill the niche.

It's basically that we dumbed down the melee tactics of the loyalists to TIP OF THE IMPERIUM SPEAR, NO GREATER HONOUR, with guroriousou mongorian rough riders to spice things up with fast attack, but there's still a noteworthy mirror on chaos.

>Sanguinius is fighting papa E
>Has him on the ropes
>In comes Angron
>FUCKINGRAGE
>Puts Sanguinius down like the pansy he is
>Dies from nails/wounds whatever
>Angron is now an Imperial saint for saving the emprah

They go riding around on the rock looking for loyalists cause totally secrets guys?

Fair.
I mean, fuck, that means outsiders could have actual interesting interaction with the situation - inquisition running into the on-the-run loyalists of a heretic legion, etc, etc.
I might almost like Cypher then...but that's going a little too far.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE BLOOD RAVENS!

I had a reply, but somebody seems to have stolen it.

>being this obtuse
They come with a later founding, just like canon.

>Read Scar's
>hurrrrr BL

On the one hand, I agree with you that the Imperium not having one of the siegeworks guys is kind of an issue.
On the other hand, I like the idea of Magnus's psychic force on the loyalist side (I don't know what this ends up looking like, in the battle itself or in military doctrine down the line, but it is interesting.
The other thing I like is the idea that Dorn and Perturabo then spend the next ten thousand years blaming each other for the failure to take Terra.

>Half the statues and stained glass in the Imperium now take the form of a really, really angry man

>Angrinala is now a holiday

...Patron Saint of Commissars?

Assuming it's like the OU where their civil war only happens after the siege of terra, they probably do have a very ugly civil war on their homeplanet that I forgot what it was called, but this time they win because Luther didn't get Chaos upgrades and Lion murders the shit out of him.

Cue a last transmission to the Loyalist forces who then enact exterminatus on the daemonridden world. What they didn't know was that the Lion and his guys packed their things in the meantime and stole all, ALL spacecraft and basically became fleetbased. The legion's fleet splits up and goes around as individual corsair fleets, the Deathwing is their prized boarding elite and the ravenguard is their attack squadrons.

And sure, add in some where sattered loyalist DAs try to warn the imperium of impending traitor DA raids and incursions.

Nope. Angron has to die at the Imperial gate. Being loyalist means he shold have come to terms with his fate and gained some perspective. He hates the nails and feels he owes it to his dead gladiator friends to die, as well, but he understands that he has his part to play and that he mustn't invite others to carry his burden.

He lays his life down for the Imperium and the good of mankind in that very moment that is tailored to him and his abilities. To fight against insurmountable hordes of enemies to buy his allies time is a fate deserving of him, as he has only ever waded in enemy corpses all his life and tirelessly given in to the nails' torture melody.

He dies at the Imperial Gate because all the others still have parts to play and their talents to contribute, and he dies in their place because this is the last moment when his endless battlefury will have good use.

>individual corsair fleets
I know that chapters that have fallen to chaos since have gone pirate, but do any of the originals have a motif like this? Cause I kinda dig it.

>berserker son's noble last stand
Dammit, I wish I could think of something other than Hyde versus the Martians in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, but that's what this reminds me of.

The only thing I would change is Sanguinius doesn't get merc'ed because the plot demands it so that he can single handedly stop the heresy

I like.

Angron dies getting that sweet, sweet serenity he wanted so hard.

His chieft librarian saw him fighting and said that only a person with a personal connection to the warp, either knowingly or unknowingly, could fight like him.

But that leaves the argument that all the primarchs have a strong connection to the warp.

I'm leading to he has some ability with it past other primarchs barring a couple, how else would he be so wise on how to use and adapt it to the legions.

Loyalist
>Emperor's Children
>Ultramarines
>Blood Angels
>Salamanders
>Sons of Horus
>Thousand Sons
>Imperial Fists
>White Scars
>Raven Guard

Traitor
>Alpha Legion (Tnzeetch)
>Space Wolves
>Iron Warriors
>Dark Angels (Archtraitor)
>Iron Hands (Slaanesh)
>World Eaters (Khorne)
>Word Bearers
>Night Lords
>Death Guard (Nurgle)

Idea is that Lorgar fails to turn Horus to chaos and uses Lion's jealousy over not being warmaster to get him to fall to chaos. Due to Lion's influence Russ ends up falling to Chaos, the Iron Hands fall to Slaanesh due to an ever increasing obsession with overcoming the weakness of the flesh and augmentation. Fulgrim never enters the temple of the Laer or takes up their sword and without Horus' influence he never falls to Chaos, the Thousand Sons try to warn the Emperor and fail but remain loyal eventually convincing the Custodes and Sisters that Lion is the traitor with the Custodes and Sisters helping to drive the wolves from Prospero.

Of course without the warmaster leading the traitors something like Isstvan III could probably never be organized so I imagine the betrayals would mostly entail the traitors pretty much executing an Order 66 style thing and suddenly turning upon their allies in the middle of battle. After the Heresy I could easily see Fulgrim helping Guilliman with Codex Astartes since he was as if not more obsessed with codified doctrine than Guilliman.

So I guess he didn't Butcher Nails all of the loyalist WE then?
Maybe after Angron dies on a pile of traitor corpses, some WEs implant the Nails themselves, to better emulate their primarch.
Could be their version of Death Companies. WEs who think they have made some sort of failing Nail themselves up and become berserkers.

I do like this sort of Heresy. I agree with and though.
In my head, it'd be more like
Loyal to the Emperor and Terra:
>The Imperial Truth and the Emperor's dream for the future.
Imperial Fists
Iron Hands
Raven Guard
Salamanders

Loyal to Horus and Chaos:
>Horus/Lorgar's vision to turn humanity to the primordial truth.
Sons of Horus
Emperor's Children
Word Bearers
Dark Angels

Loyal to the Free Legions:
>The Emperor and Horus are both tyrants, who must be brought down
Death Guard
World Eaters
Iron Warriors
Night Lords

Loyal to the Path of Ascension:
>Humanity must ascend and become a fully psychic race so that it can defeat chaos
Thousand Sons
White Scars
Blood Angels
>Hey, Poppa Sang was a powerful psyker, right? He'd probably back up Magnus if they decided to go full Ascension and temper Magnus' pride

Renegade:

Alpha Legion
>Alpharius and Omegon are actually at odds after the incident with the Cabal. Alpharius wants to throw in with Horus, Omegon wishes to stay loyalist. This internal turmoil combined with their labyrinth intelligence network and the many independent operations has led to the Legion to splintering into all factions.

Ultramarines
>Guilliman takes one look at the clusterfuck that is this heresy and declares "Nope". He starts building his Imperium Secundus right away, hoping to at least have a semblance of order after the smoke has cleared

Space Wolves
>Russ claims loyalty to the Emperor, but has basically gone rogue, formed an alliance with Guilliman and pumping out as many marines as possible to destroy the PoA who he sees as the ultimate threat

>traditional abuse yelling choirs
>holy seals nailed directly to the head
>angry marines are a rather restrained successor chapter

Here's a better question:

What if the HH never happened, and all of the Primarchs stayed loyal?

Then we wouldn't have the grimdark future we all know and love.
On the other hand, senpai would stay alive and I could end up with him.

The galaxy would be united under the imperial truth and we would have a really boring setting on our hand without much conflict

I actually like this idea but I have a few suggested changes
>Lion should be a renegade, he always desired the position of Warmaster and it seems pretty unlikely that he would support Horus in any war unless he was guarenteed a position above everyone.

>White Scars and Blood Angels don't seem like the kind that would care too much about ascension, especially if it entailed treason. Fulgrim and Ferrus however were both pretty obsessed with improving their legions, and as long as the path of ascension isn't inherently about psychic powers they would fit in that slot perfectly.

I imagine that Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, and Iron Hands would make a potent combination with a focus on physical and social perfection (Fulgrim/EC), knowledge and psychic potential (Magnus/TS), and technology and mechanical augmentation (Ferrus/IH).

>Loyal to the Free Legions:
>>The Emperor and Horus are both tyrants, who must be brought down
>Death Guard
>World Eaters
>Iron Warriors
>Night Lords

All adding up to the most violent revolutions possible. I suppose they would draw off a lot of the later revolutionary elements of canon chaos, just like the Path of Ascension would provide a non-chaos alternative for psykers and sorcerers. I guess while chaos would stay pretty recognizable, chaos marines would be extra culty, with competition from the space wizards and the knights of anarchy.

>Nope. Angron has to die at the Imperial gate. Being loyalist means he shold have come to terms with his fate and gained some perspective. He hates the nails and feels he owes it to his dead gladiator friends to die, as well, but he understands that he has his part to play and that he mustn't invite others to carry his burden.
Sounds very Imperial Fists. I could see this as a legion with a lot of passion that they hide under drills and training, but in extreme situations the rage may shine through - and they seek penance, as their Primarch did, for allowing it to overtake them.

On that note: Is there ever a circumstance where the Imperial Fists, as written, would turn Traitor during the Heresy?

would the path of ascension still fuck around with tzeentch? I imagine they would have competing influences from the eldar and harlequins, and from the emperor if he were to remain active in the warp, and chaos.

Another thing is that they might end up acting kinda like explorators, seeking out advanced technology and lost knowledge, and would probably come into conflict with the mechanicus a good deal. Not only would they compete for technology, but to determine whether the mode of human ascension will be psychic or mechanical.

All I can think of is dorn contracting a nurglite disease and going off the deep end into a fortified pool of gore

The Dornian Heresy

The what now?

I think I'm the only one here who wants this but I'd rather the Dangles stay loyal. I would however like then to be all "Oh yea like a couple of turned to chaos though no big deal" but in reality it was half the legion. I would also like the Luna wolves to have splintered in half to join the emperor and the other half being Chaos. I'd also have the white scars be a "let's see who's winning" chapter, I think that would be for the best.

I imagine it like this:

>"How dare you!", he bellowed, his face red and twisted in a tormented grimace and tears of rage and sadness streaming down his cheeks and chin, "how dare you do this to yourselves, you dimwitted idiots!" The nails were singing, loud and clearly visible in his torn expression as he snatched the apothecary's tools from his hands and flung them across the room. All present were in shock, stunned by their Primarch's unrestrained emotions. The apothecary, standing over the surgeon's table upon which his latest patient was strapped, answered in a hushed tone:
>"Father, these men just desire to be like you. We ache for you to accept us, but ever since the legion has been united with you, have you been distant and dismissive to us. We just wish to be close and experience the same bond that our brotherlegions have with their Primarch! We had hoped to become closer to you by performing this act of devotion to you-"
>"But this is not devotion, this is foolishness!", Angron retorted and his voice boomed painfully in the ears of those present, "the nails are a curse, do you hear me?! A curse!" In a blurred, swift motion did Angron turn around and bury his right fist in the apothecarion's wall, the impact was felt throughout the entire ship like a torpedo hitting the ship's hull. Mere moments felt like hours during which Angron struggled to regain his composure, his massive boding heaving with deep breaths and angry uproars that were supressed to painful grunts. And then, they became sobs, wails, and although his entire body still was tensed up so that every single musclefibre seemed to swell, the Red Angel sunk to a knee, burrying his face in his left palm.
>"The nails are a curse, you idiots...", he began, pressing the words between gritted teeth, "they are exactly the reason I do not seek your company. They are the reason I must stay away from my sons and my brotherprimarchs."

[cont.]

That's a reasonable suggestion, though where would you put the BAs and the Scars in the factions? Horus would be left with 2 legions to support him and the Emperor 3. And what would the Lion be doing as a renegade?

Yeah, the Free Legions would be all about ousting Imperial and Traitor forces through ultraviolence and then leaving. I can imagine that by the end of this Heresy they'll split into mercs and renegades, some helping secessionist where they can find them, others just working for coin or even some setting up petty kingdoms, Badab style.
Chaos would be full on religion mode, probably exclusively working out the Eye or Maelstrom as a military force, otherwise relying on gateways to be built by cultists to attack.

I can certainly see the PoA becoming a group of psychic guru nomads, travelling the stars and seeking out mystic lore, ancient technology or genetic knowledge to improve themselves in whatever path they follow.
I'd personally like it if the space wizards were opposed to Chaos, thanks to Ferrus being the cooler head of the three and saying "hey let's all remember we don't know everything", though I can imagine descendants of the EC and TS forgetting that lesson and screwing up royally. You could even have a Puritan/Radical style split between, on the most extreme, those that analyse every new bit of information in detail and those that just gobble up as much knowledge as possible.
I can imagine the conflict between them, the Mechanicum and the Inquisition as they all seek the same STC or mystic tome. And that's not even considering, as you mentioned, eldar and harlequin interference. Perhaps their willingness to listen to Xenos could be another axis of philosophical division in the PoA.

So, would the PoA have their own realm? Would they be a workable army? What about a Free Legions army? What would they look like or play like?

>Sanguinius
>Being Corrupted
>ever

If Sanguinius were to have a Heresy it would be because of how monsterous and dictatorial the Emperors methods were, being corrupted by chaos does not fit him iat all.

>"The nails - They don't sing, as so many claim. They sting! They burn and singe and tear at me at every waking second and they drive me to the brink of my own sanity at every little nuisance that I encounter. Every slight, accidental or not, makes my blood boil to the point of whitehot rage despite my better judgement. Now imagine how seeing those I am supposed to guide and protect be wounded and die on the battlefield. Imagine how hearing desperate cries and the thunder of war makes my head spin and hurt to the point where I feel it must burst any minute! Imagine my powerlessness!", he roared, hammering both his fists into the floor, "imagine how this all tears at me, day and night. And it is my burden, alone. You cannot take this weight off of me, my sons. You cannot undo the mutilation - And you sure as hell should not try and follow my path! The nails make you mindless, they make you rabid dogs!"
>He slowly rose to his feet again, swallowing the lump in his throat and steadying his breath under great effort before continuing: "You are not allowed to become such. You are made by the Emperor for a purpose, and that purpose requires you to be clear of mind and levelheaded. You have yet a part to play in His great design. Do not waste your potential by carving up your own brains!"
>"I am sorry that I have been so withdrawn, but the truth is that I have nothing else to offer to you. I have no wisdom and no great visions. I am a gladiator and I know only to kill. I have only one lesson to teach you that I have learned myself in the arena: Look out for eachother. Your brotherhood makes you strong. If you do not stand with your brothers - You are nothing. This legion, the Imperium, all of Mankind is nothing without sincere companionship. For as long as you breathe, fight for your brothers. And if you must die, then die fighting for them."
>With these last words did Angron turn around and leave the apothecarion behind. Everyone stood silent.
[cont.]

I like what is happening here

I imagine the PoA would be able to generate their own sort of warpstorm/webway-ish effect, and use that to create areas of space where reality is moderately warped in their favor. Within this sorcerous warp fog things would remain roughly coherent, but great powers would be able to tweak the universe this way or that to their liking and advantage. At their strongest they're verging into dark age of technology power levels, but only by warping reality to cover the flaws in their technology and magecraft, and they'd be unable to get their greatest powers and weapons to work outside of these areas they've distorted.

>The apothecary looked down at his hands. He had performed fourteen operations that day. His patients lay dormant, anesthetised. When they would wake, they would feel the aftermath of the hammering of the nails. He turned around to meet his battlebrothers' eyes. Some avoided him, others met him with confusion and uncertainty. And two more met him with iron determination.
>"Our primarch suffers", one of them said, his name eluding the apothecary's mind. "And we would be wise to heed him", the other one said, "the nails are foolishness." The latter one paused, then turned to his battlebrothers and began anew: "Our Primarch has ordered us not to hammer the nails. And I am glad he did, because it has opened my eyes. Nobody must ever be shamed if he refuses the nails. They are not a gift, they are a burden..."
>With these words, the first of the two began to unstrap the astartes who had remained on the surgeon table all the while, who gratefully jumped off - Only for his liberator to take his place. Seeing the confusion of his comrades, he explained: "Our primarch has ordered us to value brotherhood and companionship above anything else. I am my genesire's son. His burden is my burden. This is how I will honour our bond. You do as you think ist most suitable - But I will not leave our primarch suffering alone. We fight together, we suffer together - And we will die fighting for the Imperium and the kinship of Man."
>He turned towards the apothecary. "Hammer the nails, man!"
>The apothecary performed the operation another dozen times that day, and after that never again. Angron would later punish those who had received the nails despite his orders, but they had no regrets. The vast majority of the World Eaters would never even think about receiving the nails, although they tattooed their temples to mimic the scars of the nailed. It did not matter to their brotherhood - They would fight toghether, and they would die fighting for the Imperium.

What I'm trying to say with is, that the nails become a personal ritual of devotion that each marine must decide himself whether it is worth the risk or not, and at the same time a thing of inspiration. I like to imagine that most legionnaires who get the nails hammered are something reminiscent of chaplains who inspire their battlebrothers. In the end, it doesn't matter, because it's symbolic. Those with nails will drive the crowd, those without nails will go out of their way to emulate their nailed brothers' battlefury. Those with nails trust those without to perform at their very best and cover their backs, those without nails trust those with nails to be able to keep it together. Some inevitably aren't strong enough and break under the weight, and it will be out of their brothers' hands to catch them. Those will definitely be herded as suicide squads.

But Angron's wish for brotherhood and loyalty among your fellow marines has come true and the World Eaters will never abandon eachother.

>Also, given your list, who would you put in Horus's position if he stays loyal or if he isn't the warmaster?
I would have Lorgar be one to lead the rebellion. I'd have him start organizing it right after Monarchia, stockpiling weapons, making plans, setting up hidden bases, secretly gathering allies, etc. Horus still becomes Warmaster later on but that just makes Lorgar hate Emps even more because he sees it as an insult. The chaos gods decide to bypass Horus and throw in their lot with Mr. Daddy-Issues since he's so motivated. Only drawback: I doubt he'd be able to get near as many legions on his side as Horus did.

for some reason I'm imagining the Free legions with guard support, or at least human grunts. I imagine they would acquire them from the populations of planets they do right by, now steeped in militant anarchist ideology and eagre to help the free legions kick in heads, or even fearful planetary lords attempting to remain in the graces of the legions and assure them of their dedication to popular rule.

In combat I think perturbo and cruze's doctrines would be most common, where they work by brutal siege and mechanized combat, combined with terrorist strikes and propagandistic sabotage within enemy territory. On the other hand, Angron essentially becomes spartacus on tour, and just becomes a ravaging angel of fire and anarchy, blazing from world to world, smashing whatever regime is in charge, and leaving. Rulers would eventually come to understand that if they get too controlling there's a chance a giant warrior of brass and blood will drop out of the sky and wreck their shit.

I like this angle a lot. Its in a way much more hopeful than I expect out of 30/40k. I was thinking more the world eater's stay loyal, but are forced to implant the nails to fight against the heresy, struggling to maintain their sanity as they become as monstrous as their traitor brothers, Angron watching his sons end up like him.

>I was thinking more the world eater's stay loyal, but are forced to implant the nails to fight against the heresy, struggling to maintain their sanity as they become as monstrous as their traitor brothers, Angron watching his sons end up like him.
you could have this actually turn into an ultimate disillusionment with the imperium, and somehow finding himself alive after the dust settles angron charges on with the broken remains of his brothers to do what good he can before he totally looses it, goin with the free legions until he becomes what described, only avoiding falling to khorne by being too willful to ever submit to any master

>World Eater supported by rag-tag auxiliaries who managed to jump on the ship before it took off armed with whatever they can grab
>Iron Warrior serfs shanghai people to be used as cannon fodder during sieges
>Night Lords have horror cults and quasi-religions that worship the Night Haunter
>Death Guard make an effort to train them so they can provide combat support

Not the guy you're replying to but I'm of the opinion that all the Primarch should be dead by the end of the Heresy. No Demon Princes, no Dorn getting ganked, not flying off into the eye of terror. All dead or, at most, in some sort of hidden stasis and that should be for 2 tops.

I once did this with a freind, but instead there was no heresy,

goes rogue
>Ultramarines go rogue and taken down by Wolves and Luna Wolves
>Night Lords go rogue and Dark Angels and Blood Angels hunt them
>White Scars turn to Slaanesh currently the "Chaos legion"

basically the whole thing was since the great crusade never failed they wiped out the Tau by Lorgar, Dark Eldar by Vulkan and Necrons by Ferrus Manus and eldar by fulgrim they built up the imperium and finished the webway portals. but it left their armies shattered.

because all the edar died it super charged Slaanesh enabling him to dominate the other gods. he is the main chaos threat and his follows are the most common in this "peaceful" imperium

the biggest threat at this stage is the tyranids who were drawn in because of experiments at Sotha (that went wrong) and an unexpected side effect of the Golden Thrones use by Magnus.

the remaining legions are out hunting tyranids whilst iron warriors and Imperial Fists are fortress building EVERYWHERE Alpha Legion is weeding out chaos in the imperium. the primarchs are gathering again with the remnants of thier legions to push back the threats

Yeah, a scenario like that, it seems like the schismatic side wouldn't be built by Lorgar so much as, say, two primarchs fall to each of the chaos gods, with the Word Bearers tying the whole mess together.

Yeah, I can see this. The Imperium might actually come out of this better because Isstvan III never happens, it gives the Raven Guard and Salamanders a fighting chance to survive in a fit state to continue the Heresy

>That's a reasonable suggestion, though where would you put the BAs and the Scars in the factions? Horus would be left with 2 legions to support him and the Emperor 3. And what would the Lion be doing as a renegade?
Horus could get Khan and depending on what happens to Sanguinius and his legion the Blood Angels could potentially be loyalist or traitor. As for Lion I imagine that he would simply attempt to carve out his own empire. So the main factions would be
>Loyalists
Imperial Fists
Blood Angels
Raven Guard
Salamanders

>Chaos
Sons of Horus
Alpha Legion
Word Bearers
White Scars

>Free Legions
Death Guard
World Eaters
Iron Warriors
Night Lords

>Path of Ascension
Emperor's Children
Thousand Sons
Iron Hands

>Renegades
Dark Angels (Carving out their own empire)
Ultramarines (Imperium Secundus is less a separate empire and more a semi-autonomous substate of the Imperium, nominally loyal but ultimately putting itself first)
Space Wolves (off their leash they are cutting down the perceived enemies of the Emperor, real or imagined, particularly the Path of Ascension)

One particular area of interest for me is the Path of Ascension and how they look and behave. If they are about overall improvement instead of just psychic powers we end up with some pretty horrifying forces supporting them.
>Those influenced by the Emperor's Children are even more heavily augmented than regular marines. Imagine if Fabius Bile was supported by an actual empire and the DNA of three primarchs to carry out his research.
>The Iron Hands are mechanical monstrosities, the astartes equivalent of a myrmidon with no qualms about utilizing dark or forbidden technology on the path to ascension.
>The Thousand Sons are absolutely obsessed with psychic capabilities, actively breeding the most powerful psykers possible and willing to use DAOT and xenos technology as well as chaos artifacts to increase their psychic might even more.
And perhaps most terrifying of all
>Unaligned have no preferences for further augmentation and are willing to undergo any augmentation and use any technology to improve themselves. The vocal augmentations of the Emperor's Children, the mechanical augmentations of the Iron Hands, and naturally gifted psykers further empowered using dark technology.

I imagine if you actually tried to make it an army it would be like a cross between mechanicum, grey knights, and chymeriae blackshields.

I've been thinking less on the side of big dichotomous heresy and more towards factionalized shitshow, where the ultimate effect of the great crusade was to introduce astartes to the galaxy, and primarchs powerful enough to sustain galaxy spanning intrigues and power blocs. The grimdark comes not from everyone awesome being dead and succeeded by fanatics. It instead comes from the fact that the emperor and primarchs, even when well intentioned, cannot escape the fact that they are only a family of broken demigods, ultimately no more able to fix the galaxy as they would have it than the gods above them or the lesser mortals below.

...

Hi, Slaanesh.

so, any ideas how these factions interact with xenos factions? I think the free legions would be eager to stomp the ethereals to death, and that the path of ascension would be doing weird shit tangling with eldar and necron lords both as enemies and potential allies, and probably trying to manipulate the orcs. I'm not really sure how the dark angel empire would behave, and also unsure about the vastly truncated loyalists and chaos forces. I'm also trying to figure out non nurglite Death Guard

Thing is tho, with fewer legions he'll need something to thicken his ranks or he and his fanatics are going to be decimated right off the bat. I'm thinking chaos demons. Lots of them, many more than in the original Heresy. Lords of Change, Bloodthirsters, Great Unclean Ones and Keepers of Secrets. I like to think Lorgar would at least have Magnus and Mortarion on his side so that would help too.

Loyalist
>Emperor's Children (Fulgrim dies helping to take down Angron)
>Death Guard (Typhus only corrupts a minimal part of the legion)
>World Eaters (They stay loyal to the Emperor, Angron falls to chaos but his legion kill him with the Emperor's Children help)
>Raven Guard
>Thousand Sons (Magnus is killed by Leman)
>Ultramarines
>Imperial Fists
>Blood Angels (Sanguinius have the same fate)
>White Scars

Traitor
>Space Wolves (After being used as the bloodhound of the Emperor so much they take a liking to killing space marines and fall to Khorne)
>Sons of Horus (Same fate)
>Alpha Legion (Legion splits in two, Omegon stays loyal and founds a chapter with the few survivors after the heresy, primarch eventually goes missing. Alpharius falls to Tzeench)
>Iron Warriors
>Dark Angels (Luther is the loyal one, Lion slay him)
>World Bearers
>Night Lords
>Iron Hands
>Salamanders (Falls to Nurgle)

>Thousand Sons (Magnus is killed by Leman)
Magnus was the Loyalist at first.
He ordered to let the Space Wolves do their thing.
It was Ahriman that forced the hand and fight back.

>Night Lords
>not falling to Slaanesh

I'm the guy that posted
I'm gonna take
seeing as it's more coherent and accurate to the spirit of the various legions and try and make a timeline leading up to and including the heresy to explain their divergence.

>The Purge of the unknown Legions.
Early in the Great Crusade, the 2nd and 11th legion stray from the Emperor's light and in turn he smites the legions with the aide of Russ, his executioner. Whilst several of the Primarchs feel that this action was necessary. Guilleman speaks out against it and is reprimanded by Horus and Dorn who feel he is overstepping his mark. Less publicly, Perturabo and Mortarion equivocate the Emperor to the tyrants of their own adoptive homeworlds.

>Lorgar's shame
The Emperor, fearing that 2 more of his sons have drifted from his will, devises a plan to test the loyalty of the 13th and 17th legions. Guilleman is ordered to destroy the city of Monarchia, the crowning glory of Lorgar's zealous crusade. Guilleman resists but eventually obeys when he realises that the Emperor is willing to set Russ on him if he doesn't. Lorgar and Guilleman come to blows after the incident and both of them lose their faith in the Imperium. Across the Legions, there is talk of whether or not the Emperor's judgment is impared somehow. Soon, Guilleman is back in Ultramar and Lorgar is facing the Primordial truth.

>The Alpharius Gambit
An Eldar/xenos cabal approaches the twin primarchs with a warning of the impending fall of Horus and the fracture of the Imperium. Their emissary implores the 20th Primarchs to slay Horus and Help the Emperor purge the Ranks of the Astartes legions. The twin Primarchs slay the foul xenos and set off to find Horus at once. Along the way, they examine evidence of the Primordial annihilator, seeking to understand this bizarre force so they can harness it.

(cont)

>The Nikaea Schism
After years of open hostility between Magnus, Mortarion, the Khan and Russ, the Emperor calls a trial to discuss the use of Psykers within the Legions. Mortarion makes an impassioned speech about the dangers of the Librarian cult and the troubling rituals that the Khan and Magnus have engaged in. Magnus responds with his own beleif that humanity must be ascended to survive some unkown horror that he perceives in the future. The Khan and Russ trade insults for a while before the Emperor makes his judgment known. The Librarian cults will be permitted to continue and will be implimented within all legions, to hasten the ascension of the Legions. Mortarion leaves the conclave, completely disillusioned with the Imperium. He seeks out his like minded brothers to discuss a response to this betrayal.
Meanwhile Magnus, overjoyed by the Emperor's wisdom, commits his legion to the Crusade with new vigour.

>The Fault in the Stars
On Davin, Horus is seduced to Chaos by his brother Lorgar. Magnus is never made aware of the peril his brother faces as he is away from Prospero. The Alpha Legion arrive soo thereafter, already twisted to the Malign will of Tzeentch by their quest to understand Chaos. Together, 4 Primarchs plot Heresy.

Magnus joins Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim in a joint crusade to crush an Eldar Craftworld. While there, Magnus discovers that Fulgrim has been tainted by the malign influence of a daemon-blade. He informs Manus and together they help stop the insidious creep of Chaotic influence over the 3rd legion. Magnus expalins what has happened to his deeply concerned brothers and explains how he has saved Fulgrim from possession. Fulgrim devotes himself to Magnus' cause. Ferrus Manus takes more convincing but ultimately agrees that psykers are more powerful and so must be made superior. Together, they plot a new future.

(cont)

Mortarion meets with Perturabo and Angron. The Iron Warrior is attempting to rid the Red Angel of his Butcher's nails using a bizarre new invention of his. Mortarion and Perturabo are overjoyed by the apparent success of the procedure, but it isn't long before Mortarion begins discussing the results of the Nikaea conference. Perturabo is dumbfounded by this revelation. Together, the 3 Primarchs agree that they must save Humanity from the madness of Magnus the Red and the Emperor. But first, Perturabo wishes to Seek out the mad primarch, curze, and cure his insanity

In the deep, Russ and Lion El Johnson battle over past wrongs and minor slights. Both of them are driven by a sense of betrayal. the Lion is furious that Horus Lupercal, not he, was made Warmaster. The Wolf refuses to allow Maleficarum to take hold of his legion. Both Legions throw off the shackles of imperial law to impose their own.

Jaghatai Khan strives for perfection and speed. His White Scars engage in shamanistic ritual sacrifice and indulgence in order to gain the blessings of the various spirits. When Horus calls onhis brother to join him, the Khan is already well and truly damned.

>The Isstvan War
Magnus is summoned to Isstvan by his brother Mortarion. The Death Lord wishes to mend old wounds and hear more of Magnus' plans. Happy to hear that his brother has seen the light, Magnus sets out, with his two likeminded brothers, to bring the Death Guard into the fold.

When they arrive, the Ascenionist fleet finds not 1, but 3 legions arrayed before them. The Death Guard, Iron Warriors and World Eater fleets wait patiently over Isstvan 3. Mortarion greets the Acenionists and invites them to the capital city of Isstvan 3, to meet with their brother. Weary, but ambitious, Magnus accepts and leads his 3 legions to the surface.

(Cont)

Stop reminding me the World Eaters will never me a canon loyal chapter

He talks with Mortarion at length about the threat of Chaos and the the neccessity of knowledge. Perturabo seems the most receptive to Magnus's arguments and they discuss, at length the ascenionist plan. Suddenly, without warning, Mortarion's forces open fire on the Ascencionists. Magnus barely escapes the clutches of Perturabo. His own son, Ahriman sacrifices himself for the Thousand Sons to escape the planet.

Battered and shocked, Magnus leads the Ascenionist fleet away from Isstvan 3 at best possible speed. As they reach Systems edge, an astropathic message is recieved. Prospero has been destroyed by the Space Wolves. Chemos and Medusa have been purged by the Night Lords.

Blinded by rage and grief, Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim turn their forces back toward their would be assassins. Magnus has no choice but to join his brothers or see them destroyed. What follows is a chaotic, violent maelstrom of void combat and planetary bombardment.

When word reaches the rest of the Imperium that 6 legions have turned on one another in the Isstvan system, the warmaster declares all of them traitors and rallies a force to cleanse them. The Sons of Horus, the Word Bearers, the Alpha Legion, The White Scars, The Raven Guard, The Salamanders and the Blood Angels. 7 legions to destroy 6.

(cont)

The Warmaster's fleet arrives to find both enemy fleets scattered, Isstvan 3 a lifeless husk and a brutal ground war underway on the barren world of isstvan 5. Horus orders Sanguninius to lead Corax and Vulkan to the ground on Isstvan 5 immediately. The Blood Angel gladly complies and deploys 3 assault legions to strike for the heart of the mellee, where Magnus and Mortarion are locked in duel.

9 legions, Locked in a battle of cyclopean scale, await the second wave of loyalists. Instead, they are all of them betrayed. Horus Begins an orbital bombardment of the battlefield, slaying Ascenionists, Loyalists and Free Legion forces alike. The Warmaster makes a pronouncement. They may join him in his new dark crusade to claim Terra, or they may die in the sand. All 9 Engaged Primarchs spite the name of Horus. Amused but unsurprised, Horus prepares t destroy Isstvan 5.

On the Ground, a truce is formed. The 9 legions, battered and bloodied forstall their current conflict in the name of survival. The Ships of all 9 legions focus their attentions on the Warmasters fleet in the hopes of gaining enough time to evacuate the armies on the ground.

(cont)

The Fighting is intense, and Horus is forced to surrender his position above Isstvan 5 to the overwhelming firepower of his foes.The Free Legions, Aided by the sudden appearance of the Nightlords, inflict heavy casualties on the Traitors before fleeing the system.

Sanguinius and the Loyalists save the remaining acensionists, what few are left. and flee towards Terra. Magnus repays the mercy of the Blood angels by stealing several of their ships to carry his remaining followers towards some unknown goal on the edge of the Imperium.

Horus rallies his armies and declares a victory for Chaos and prepares to set his brother's to the task of carving up the Imperium.

>The Civil War.
The Warmaster strikes across the Imperium, claiming world after world for chaos. His ultimate goal is to take Terra and become the Emperor.

Battered and severely diminished, the loyalists turn to the Imperial Fists to lead the defence of Terra and the Counter Attack to reclaim the Imperium.

Robute Guilleman, at a loss as the the sheer scale of this betrayal, fortifies the worlds of Ultramar into a second Imperium. There are rumours that the Dark Angels, dissapeared for decades, have been sighted near Ultramar, making their way towards the system of Calth.

Magnus, witha meagre host of survivors, makes his way towards a strange, dead world world near the edge of the Galaxy, where it is rumoured that a powerful psychic device is hidden. Magnus wishes to restore his forces to strength and save humanity. All the while, wolves nip at their heels.

Mortarion and the Free Legions move out of the way of the War, claiming large areas of the Imperium that were cut off from Terra as their own. He and His brothers set about remaking the imperium in their own image, all the while gathering allies and strength so that they can put an end to the madness of Horus and the Emperor

i'm liking this setting so far with the whole constant civil war between the primarchs going on seems like you could realy build on it with alot of weeling and dealing going on between all the factions as everyone is working towards their own goals, wich may work with other faction or conflict with them and so alliances are constantly shifting.

I feel like The ascensionists would be the most likely to deal with Xenos whereas the Free Legions would probably shift back and forth over helping the traitors or the loyalists

have we decided on what actualy happens to big E yet?
i can't realy see anything on the matter in the thread.

I'm not sure yet. I'm thinking maybe some sort of Alpha Legion sabotage to the Golden Throne. That or a failed attempt to cure his son's imperfections leaving him worn a weary.

I like this, though I personally would swap the Wolves with the Salamanders - everyone felt the Wolves were pretty loyal, and the Salamanders have got their own cult thing going on. Or they might just want to burn down the galaxy.

All told though, that's a pretty cool five-way split

My thoughts.
Loyalists are slightly more open to xenos than the original imperium primarily because they only had a few legions and lacked the numbers to truly defend their space without some negotiation with xenos. Main allies are craftworld Eldar but as with the Imperium secundus conflict does erupt from time to time.

Chaos are pretty much chaos from our timeline with the exception that Dark Eldar never interact with them as they are full Chaos and have no real renegades (Like Fabius Bile or the Night Lords) who just use chaos for their own means.

Free legions see xenos as a stepping stone for their objectives generally. While they will not hesitate to exterminate races that are enslaving humans they will gladly ally with minor xenos races if it means gaining an advantage.

The Path of Ascension is more than willing to utilize xenos knowledge and technology but tend to view xenos allies as a weakness that will lead to the collapse of the path. So some haemonculi might be tolerated to modify marines and the Iron Hands descendants might study Necron tech but you won't generally see PoA fighting alongside Necrons or Eldar.

Renegades vary. Space Wolves probably kill them all, Lion doesn't care as long as they kneel before him, Guilliman is more willing to utilize xenos as auxiliaries for his armies.

that seems solid i'll second that.