I hate how over represented swords are in fantasy settings, especially for graceful dexterity based characters...

>Crushing and cleaving rely on, guess what?
Hitting the target.
Now, piercing on the other hand? Yeah, thats raw brute force.

All real war axes were thin so that they could be swung quickly and without exhausting the wielder, you nitwit. Do you think people went into battle with woodcutting axes if they could help it?

Hit yourself with a hammer and a knife while applying the same force, and check which one injures you more.
Go on, I'll wait.

I cant believe anyone has said this.

Spears.

They are long, nimble stabbing implements.

Well, overall I'm not a fan of the str/dex weapons thing, as I feel it makes an absolutely abhorrent job of representing the reality of things, but if you want a more graceful axe, how about this one?

The hammer one. Bone splinters. Even more so, if its a tool hammer, and the crowbar side is used.
Knife does fuck all on flat hits.

>axe for a hand
Jesus, I hope he had some kind of wrist support

thats a horsemans axe, hardly what the op is trying to make up

Depends on the area. Deep stabbing wound to the abdomen is more likely to kill you than strong chop with an axe. Cut intestines, severed aorta, all this nasty stuff.

I'd like to see a min-maxed dual axe-wielding dervish type character. Sounds like a rad build concept.

>the same force
Are you perchance a dummy?

>flat hits
You know you're right when your opponent constructs a strawman in an attempt to disprove you.

No, the handle also extends outwards from the elbow, yet still underneath the skin.

I said it here: And honestly, European media doesn't give spears the credit they deserve. I mean it is true that common rabble have usually been armed with spears (or pikes) but in the hands of a trained warrior it can be a really deadly and graceful weapon.

In Asian media you will find heroes with spears and kung-fu warriors and whatnot but not so much in Western stuff.

This is a fun conversation you guys are having, but is there any chance you could debate less physics and debate more weapon design?

This is right.
Even though the term "battleaxe" evokes the image of a gigantic heavy instrument of murder in many people, a battle axe was actually much smaller than any wood cutting axe.
That's because it usually required much less force to cleave through an enemy and his armor than chopping down a tree. It was also a factor how fast you could strike again after an attack, so additional weight was a bad thing.
This also goes for throwing axes such as the Francisca/Franziska, which required at least as much dexterity as they required strength.
The exception to this rule are cavalry axes, dane axes and pollaxes which were made to be used from horseback or with both hands, respectively.

Also, the DnD 3.5e trait "Weapon Finesse" applies not only to daggers and rapiers, but also to axes.

For extensive piercing, we also have the Viking flavour.

>knife does fuck all on flat hits
And I have trouble hammering nails with a screwdriver. What's your point?

That's like asking someone to talk less about math and more about physics.

Or, instead, you could use the most popular weapon in human history, one that actually does rely on precision.

Although, of course, the whole "DEX vs. STR" thing is total bullshit. You can't be dexterous without being strong. It's possible to be strong but clumsy, but it is flat-out impossible to have 18 dex and 10 strength. Have you ever looked at an acrobat's body? Or an Olympic fencer's? If you want precise control over the movements of your body and weapons, you need a lot of muscle to make that happen. Not as much muscle as if you were trying to be a powerlifter, but pretending the stats are separate is simply incorrect.

Design of the weapon is based on physics of its applications, you dummy.

Op here, I dig spears and pole weapons, but I can't see them as being very practical for individual combat, because of the ease of getting inside when fighting someone using one. So if not a spear, what would be second best?

It's basically a prosthetic.

Aside from being fuckhuge it also has the problem of having a too short handle to be useful (if it wasn't a manga where the laws of physics are merely a suggestion.)

He said spear, not sarissa.

If you hammer a nail, but miss, you literally break the bone you hit. Except if you hit the air bubble in the last joint(which just hurts like hell).
There is a reason people are very careful when hammering nails.

If you fuck up while carving wood, you don't even go trough to the bone. You might faint because you lose blood, and you bleed a little, but its so small you literally stop the blood loss with cold tap water.

>same force
>SAME
>FORCE

Not so much smaller as thinner, they had lighter, longer blades on the head as opposed to the huge heavy wedge.

Have you ever carved wood? You tend to go all in in terms of physical strength.
Contrast to nail hammering, where you don't do that.

>because of the ease of getting inside when fighting someone using one
Spearman can stab you while you trying to get close and easily kill you before you kill him, unless you are wearing good armor. Reach is a big deal, part of the reason axes aren't too popular.

Ok, you are very wrong and here is why.

You have a sword, say, and the other guy has a spear. How exactly are you going to "easily" get inside of his spear?

a trained warrior will have the tip damned near constantly jabbing and feinting.
Stop thinking in terms of "spearmen holding the line" and more along the lines of "A very light incredibly nimble sharp point constantly poking at you"

>Fast man with spear
>Someone gets "inside your range"
>Clobber them on the side of the head with the bigass stick you're swinging around, or if its a bladed polearm just choke up a bit
>?¿?¿
>Profit!

>but I can't see them as being very practical for individual combat, because of the ease of getting inside when fighting someone using one.

Whenever I'm carving wood and find myself needing to use a great deal of force I put down the knife and start using a chisel. Have you never swung a hammer in your entire life?

There's a weapon Asian monks use called a Meteor Hammer. It's basically two mace heads on the end of a long cord/rope. You use it by swinging them around at crazy speeds, and controlling these things in the air takes a lot of finesse.

I suppose if you made a club with a small enough head, you could call it more dexterous.

But overall, blades are dexterous because they are usually weapons that are made for slashing, with most of the weight in the handle so the blade feels light and can move faster. A mace or axe, on the other hand, has most of their weight in the head, because that's the end you're supposed to hit people with.

I'm not saying that maces or axes are bad - I mean, axes combine the force of a mace with the cutting power of a blade, what's not to like? - but they are not weapons of finesse.

STR kinda represents more of the mass portion of the F=ma equation.There are strong and fat people who wouldn't be as powerful without their fat.

Nah, spears can be used for individual combat but that means that the user needs to be really skilled, fast and dexterous... See what I'm getting at?

When someone is coming at you and you have a spear the first thrust can be done before they get in range. If you can do this and get past their protection the fight can be over at that point already. If they get past that you need to be able to run backwards as fast as they can run forwards or you have to pull in the spear and use it like a dagger. You can also use the spear like a staff while you fight and this will allow you to use it at shorter range.

Controlling the distance between yourself and the opponent requires lots of movement so spearman against someone with a sword and shield (for example) means that you have to be good on your feet and if there is less room to move it means that you need to make use of lateral movement and this is generally harder for people than simply going back and forth.

It all boils down to someone with a spear (or halberd) needing to be really skilled to do well in single combat and I believe this is exactly what you have been looking for.

This isn't a problem in GURPS where all weapon skills are based on dexterity, and strength is mainly for damage and being able to handle heavier weapons.

Polearms are for mass combat. For individual use, you get a shorter spear, and use it like a quarterstaff with a knife on the end. Or use a shortspear + shield combo, very effective and historically popular. Hoplites, motherfucker!

It's pretty metal.

I bet you use machines to finish the primary shape too. And don't like scars.

Your screwdrivers have poor handles then

As I said, you can be strong without being dexterous, but you CANNOT be dexterous without being strong.

Not when we're talking about hitting things with a weapon it doesn't.

An inclined plane is a machine, user.

English question: What is the differene between carving, knife shaping and whittling?

>my one tool is bad at doing the job of this other tool which it is not at all designed to do
>therefore it's a shit tool
Every tool is a hammer, but that doesn't mean they're all good hammers.

carving is painting in the wood with a knife
whittling is changing the shape by cutting bits off iirc

Screwdriver is one of the few tools with a handle that can be used for hammering.
Doing nails with it is very easy.
Heck, it needs a flat handle so you can hammer the handle to do some things.

See that shit could cave someone's head in with a flick of the wrist. I'm sure it requires a lot of strength to use, but you're using that strength to control the weapon rather than using the weapon to channel your strength into hits.

>but they are not weapons of finesse.

They probably aren't weapons of quick darting direction changes at least.

That most defiantly doesn't mean there's no finesse to them, that the use is simply "hulk smash!". Everything about distance, timing and body mechanics still apply. Any weapon of decent length will have clear foible and forte, which quickly becomes important whenever weapons tough. Proper cutting technique makes a considerable difference with axes. Etc.

STR and DEX is more like the difference between a bodybuilder and an acrobat.

It's not that the acrobat doesn't have muscle, they've just devoted all their training into making sure they can move quickly and effortlessly. The bodybuilder has put all his training into getting as large muscles as possible, so he can pick up or swing around something heavy.

I'm pretty sure one could be acrobatic while only having about 10 strength.

You've never seen a screwdriver in your life, have you?

Round or flat end butt.
Bonus point for flat head type.

Axes, you can make that argument. But maces are honestly glorified clubs. It doesn't matter how you swing it, any part of the head is going to do damage. It's the easiest to learn to use, and the simplest to use.

Maybe that's why he's such a piss-easy early opponent who never shows up again? It's been awhile since I read those beginning chapters, but I could swear Luffy one-shots him once they actually start fighting.

I'm honestly surprised nobody has busted in shouting Katanas for no reason.

Hey OP, you said no swords...but what about SwordSpears, people underestimate just how badass they are, practicality? fuck that, its badass

I always thought it was more like the difference between a bodybuilder and, say, a magician or juggler. Acrobats are strong as fuck in real life, but you can be a fine painter or sleight-of-hand artist without any muscle tone.

Ehhh, from what I've seen the spear beats pretty much any other single weapon. Trying to bind and control a spear with a fucking longsword or a rapier is not a fun time.

Options are overrated when every branch of your decision fork is insanely difficult for your opponent to deal with, and the design of the weapon allows you to get as fancy as you want. If you're tired of jabbing you can bonk the guy on the head with a lug or cut him open with the spearhead, and we haven't even moved away from the business end.

>seriously insisting that screwdrivers make good hammers
Quit playing dumb. Even if you're using one of the few ones that doesn't have a rounded bottom, you're only going to get pitiful levels of force out of the screwdriver because you've got no torque. Use screwdrivers for driving screws and hammers for driving nails.

Congratulations, you've incurred the wrath of a billion polearm fags

>I'm pretty sure one could be acrobatic while only having about 10 strength.

Sure, if you're about four feet high. In which case str 10 is a lot.

If you're about normal size though, then the strength to weight ratios necessary to be good at gymnastics means you look like this.

feelguide.com/2012/07/07/american-hotness-40-droolworthy-photos-released-of-the-u-s-mens-olympic-gymnastics-team/

Meanwhile the hulk mountain of muscle can be extremely quick, because he has immense explosive strength. Put the shot put guys next to the sprinters on the track and it ain't gonna be Usain Bolt who wins the 2m dash. Just don't ask them to keep that pace for more than five to ten feet or so... Magnus Samuelsson did very well on Let's Dance one year (ie he won), probably plenty to see on youtube.

Well, of course it is
What else would it be made of?
Joke aside they're neat af

>I'm pretty sure one could be acrobatic while only having about 10 strength.

Nope. It takes a fuckton of strength to be able to move yourself with that much ease and grace.

I've seen acrobats and gymnasts completely new to powerlifting just rip a 2x bodyweight deadlift up off the floor.

The problem is that most systems don't differentiated between agility and manual dexterity.

This honestly. An acrobat would likely have a good dexterity and a good strength, since a lot of the stuff they do is crazy

are you for reall rigut now? screwdrivers can be hammers if you dont have a hammer. Have you ever done construction work in your life?

They were largely written by overweight nerds who'd never done anything remotely physically taxing in their lives.

>It doesn't matter how you swing it, any part of the head is going to do damage. It's the easiest to learn to use, and the simplest to use.

The hard part about using an axe, sword, or other melee weapon isn't hitting so you do damage. It's hitting at all in the first place, while not getting hit yourself.

Are you fucking illiterate? I just said that they're all hammers but not all of them are good hammers.

>Meanwhile, blades rely on slashing and piercing the enemy

>using a sword to 4% of it's capabilities

Here's a comment from someone who has done construction work: If I see some moron using a screwdriver as a hammer I would never let him live it down. Doesn't matter if he's just fixing something on his backyard or if it happens at work. In latter case everyone would come to laugh at the fucktard because why the hell would you do something like that? Did you forget your hammer and didn't feel like taking few steps and get it back? Don't even dare to tell me that someone wouldn't even have a hammer if they do construction work.

>what is a rapier

No he hasn't, he has incurred the wrath of spear fags, a wrath now looming over you.

Long spears were considered strong or even ideal dueling weapons also. They just aren't conveniently portable in daily life and so were mostly weapons relegated to the field. But they truly were the kings of all melee weapons for most fighting purposes.

You're not wrong, but cutting consistently with edged weapons under non-optimal circumstances is a surprising bitch to do.

Your sword may have gotten nicked, the other cunt may be wearing a gambeson, your grip may be fucked because of all the panic sweat, etc.

The dichotomy you are describing has less to do with strength or precision and a lot more to do with what your target is: ie, naked flesh, cloth, gambeson, mail, or plate. Both a "strong man" and a "dexterous" man would both prefer a mace when fighting against full plate, and both would prefer a spear when fighting against a man in gambeson.

I suppose you're right on that respect. I mentioned polearms because they tend to pop up any time someone mentions spears
Spears seem pretty legit though, all things considered. They pop up a lot in myths too, which is neat

Fuck finessing. Smite and cleave.

Don't the modern Chinese use cloth ones for sport?

On a similar note a flail would also work, and for the same reason. Once it gets up to speed it's not using the strength of the wielder as much as it is the mass and speed of the business end.

Imagine a dance-battler jumping and spinning with that thing like fucking Yoda, keeping a circle of flying metal around themselves.

>Western media only gives us swords and spears
>But not eastern media! They had a guy with swords, and a guy with a spear!

You are a stupid weaboo.

It's because they're rabble weapons. You've gotta separate your hero from your peasantry. How? Give the hero the sword. Swords then become the "cool" weapon, and obviously you want to give the "cool" weapon to heroes, and it's basically a self-reinforcing cycle from there.

Agility and dexterity, you say?

I immediately remembered this fight from daredevil when I saw this thread

youtu.be/dKCnrgVGgYw

Skip to 2:30 for the fancy stuff

Always thought warhammers to be patrician. Especially with the symbolism of a gavel. Bashin' niggas like you're a judge sentencing their doom.

I'm at work right now, on a construction site, as an electrician.
I don't own a hammer. I own a pair of pliers. Also screwdrivers make great light mallets, ie if you need to hammer something into place but you don't want to damage the surface of it.

>Make a thread about weapons
>Suddenly everyone is an expert

>It doesn't matter how you swing it, any part of the head is going to do damage
Yes, so you have to actually hit them with the head. Hit them with the haft and they won't be anywhere near as hurt, miss with the head and you've overreached and you're open.

Honestly it's all about timing and distance to your target, same as an axe. The only thing you don't have to worry about it the angle you strike with the head, but most wrist positions are kind of weak so you'd have to angle your arm in exactly the same way.

>make a thread demonstrating one's supreme ignorance of weapons
>suddenly everyone else knows more than you