Why have Hades, Hecate and Ares an evil alignment in D&D?

Why have Hades, Hecate and Ares an evil alignment in D&D?

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Because the people doing those books were dumb.

Hades was straight LN, for example.

Because otherwise evil clerics would be unemployed

Y'know, aside from all that kidnapping, trickery, and unwarranted cruelty.

Aside from that, pretty stand up fella.

Zeus went around raping as an animal. Apollo cursed a woman just because she dared to say 'no.' Are they pegged as CE?

>kidnapping

Yeah he took Persephone, but given that he tried to treat her nicely rather than just rape the shit out of her makes him leagues better than CG Zeus

>trickery

Like all the other Gods, who are Good aligned

>unwarranted cruelty

Have no idea what you're talking about here

Zeus raped an animal?

For a Greek God, that's pretty Neutral.

That's why I said he's a stand up fella.
Probably the only really evil thing he did was punish Theseus for being a good friend, and he only did that because his wife's honor was at stake.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and opine that applying modern standards to ancient deities from a pre-ethical religion is kind of silly.

They cannot necessarily be construed as moral in any sense to begin with, and even if you do, it's better to judge it according to Ancient Greek Standards, which are going to be different, you know.

Of course, even by their standards some of them are total ratfucks, but exactly WHY sometimes varies from why we would say so.

This is also true in the bible. Like Sodom and Gomorrah. The worst thing the mob does in that scenario is be inhospitable to travelers, really. The fact that they want to sodomize them is also bad, but the particularly bad thing is violating guest right.

(Also something particularly shit heeled Walder Frey does in ASOIF, and he is getting a big dose of karma for that. Never mind turning his reputation to absolute shit and eternally relegating himself to "well he's a fucking traitor isn't he?" status. I mean, would you ever trust someone who did that? You can't trust someone like that.)

No, Zeus went around as an animal raping people, there's a difference user

>The worst thing the mob does in that scenario is be inhospitable to travelers, really.

Holy fuck, you need to get smote.

Compared with Zeus, he's absolutely lovely fella and an upstanding citizen. Seriously, from all Greek gods, MAYBE only Hephaistos commited less shit (as in - none).

It's nothing more than early Christian reimaginery of every single fucking underworld god as Satan. And in most pagan religions, those were usually the only good guys, as they were governing the most important shit and nobody wants to have an awful guy above them for entire afterlife.

>This is also true in the bible. Like Sodom and Gomorrah. The worst thing the mob does in that scenario is be inhospitable to travelers, really. The fact that they want to sodomize them is also bad, but the particularly bad thing is violating guest right.

Not to mention that the people in that story who were deemed worthy enough to live was the guy who was about to send his daughters out to be raped and his daughters, who would later get their dad drunk and rape *him*.

It's one seriously fucked up story.

Welcome to the Abrahamic religion my friend, I hope you enjoy your stay.

>applying modern standards to ancient deities from a pre-ethical religion is kind of silly.

Nope, it's perfectly valid. Because modern standards won. You don't see any greek standards around anymore, so it's perfectly valid to twist them as modern society deems fit.

>The worst thing the mob does in that scenario is be inhospitable to travelers, really. The fact that they want to sodomize them is also bad, but the particularly bad thing is violating guest right.

Even God acknowledges that bum plummeting angels is a normal human reaction.

I bet you're the kind of person who thinks western standards are always right whenever people from the east don't follow them, am I right?

>who were deemed worthy enough to live was the guy who was about to send his daughters out to be raped and his daughters, who would later get their dad drunk and rape *him*.

In order to prevent the ANGELS from being sodomized to death. And since his daughters are the worst kind of whores you could imagine as illustrated later can we really blame him for that ?

AS an animal. AS.

I've seen enough shota to know where this is going.
Actually I haven't, but I can guess.

to be fair, i'd totally believe it if there was a greek story of zeus raping some animal. it's in character

He's still grim and unlikable as fuck, and was absolutely dreadful to mortals.

Also, keep in mind that there's a sharp difference between the religious versions of the Gods and the dramatic ones, with most of our knowledge being built around the theater portrayals that were often contradictory/humorous versions.
Zeus was the God of Justice, not of rape, Hera was the Goddess of Family, not of jealousy, and Hades was the Grim lord of the Dead, not the cool uncle who was the voice of sanity in a dysfunctional family sitcom.

It's sort of like how people five thousand years from now might discover a DVD of Dogma, and imagine we worshiped Alanis Morissette.

The greek knew perfectly well that their gods were asshats as in dickholes like humans can be. That's kinda the point of the gods having human traits to explain the clusterfuck that life and nature are. Even by THEIR standards ares was literally a bully and a coward who'd flew at the first of something strong enough to hurt him yet would make everyone's life a misery just because he would. (And Aphrodite was the worst kind of cheating whore you could imagine). They knew all along their deities were with flaws.

>He's still grim and unlikable as fuck, and was absolutely dreadful to mortals.

Because Hade was autistic as fuck. But he is the judge of where mortal souls go to in the afterlife he has to be autistic in order to do his job.

>Actually I haven't

You don't fool anyone here user.

Yeah, it's in character. It would also be in character for one of the goddesses to turn a women into an animal,and than Zeus rapes them when no ones looking. Fucking Greeks man, gotta love them and gotta be disturbed by them.

>He's still grim and unlikable as fuck, and was absolutely dreadful to mortals.
Cut down Hercules intake, will ya?

Let me guess.

Palutena joins in for a threesome?

>I know shit about Greek myths

Please, stop.
In fact, just generally fuck off.

I prefer my effeminite males to be fully grown traps, thank you very much!

Hecate was the goddess of the bad sort of witchcraft and was strait up considered wicked by most classical & hellenic greeks. Typically only invoked her name to curse people. [spoilers]There were a lot of cheap lead tablets buried at crossroads that specifically ask Hecate to fuck up some rival. You could go to your local witch, buy a blank Hecate curse, fill in the names, and then bury it.[/spoilers]


The other two should be neutral or good.

>It's sort of like how people five thousand years from now might discover a DVD of Dogma, and imagine we worshiped Alanis Morissette.
>implying the '90s/early 00s didn't fucking worship alanis

I read somewhere once that the greeks were also afraid of him and wouldn't really talk about him much.
Not because he was evil or anything, just because he was the god of dead people.

I am mildly annoyed that people always leave out that he is also the god of having shit loads of money.

I DESTROYED WHOLE CITIES FOR LESS, YOUNG BOY !

I'm just explaining what my professors explained to me.

The Greeks were pious, but the dramatic versions of their Gods were still several shades different from what they actually worshiped, with different traits emphasized. This is particularly evident with how different Hera is, with her venerated version being a great and powerful goddess of wisdom and protection, while her dramatic version is just the butt of every joke.

No, she was considered dangerous by them. She was actually worshiped as an atropopaist, literally a diety who warded evil away. She could be invoked for vengeance and revenge, yes, and that is what made her 'dagerous', but she was never considered 'evil'.

Like a big divine gargoyle.

>He's still grim and unlikable as fuck
Because he was shafted by his older brothers, Zeus and Poseidon.

Hades did nothing wrong.

Because no god was considered plain evil. Unless you start to start to take into account the sisters of vengeance death and fury and shit like that which still exist nowadays in the hindu religion because of the shared indo european myths.

What's the point of all that money when there's nothing to spend it on?

There's a reason they called her the bitch goddess and the three faced goddess, man.

I guess if he thought you were cool he could give you a big sack of gold.
Its not a helmet that turns you invisible or a shield that shoots fire but lots of gold is always nice.

Ares was a punk bitch that ran when he was losing and supported winning teams.

I mean, he even set up visitation times for his mother-in-law to visit her daughter, that's pretty cool.

>actually wanting parent-in-laws to visit

Holy shit he is lawful.

Reluctantly, and only because her mother-in-law threatened to kill the entire world, and Zeus had to step in.

Hell, Zeus commanded him to return her, but Hades argued about pomegranate seeds, condemning the world to the cycle of the seasons instead of just endless growth and fertility.

Now that I think about it, he's a bit of a fuck.

Diomedes was just too real man. Anyone with any sense would run from him.

To be fair when your two powers are having lots of gold and control of death and the afterlife, you are going to leverage the shit out of being the death god when your dick of a brother tries to make you do shit you dont want to.

>only because her mother-in-law threatened to kill the entire world
wanna know whose problem this isn't? the guy who hangs out all day with dead folks

wanna know whose problem that is? all the other gods obsessed with those sweet mortal women

Couldn't Hades literally just let everyone she killed just go back to being alive?
Its really a non problem for him.

At the point where you are willing to screw over your entire family, the entire world, and to condemn everything to the bleak existence that is your domain, you qualify as evil, even if you let up a little and just condemn the world to a period of suffering and hardship that renews itself each year.

Still, can't really blame him all that much, because he has the best waifu in mythology.

Also, can't believe this hasn't been posted yet.
youtu.be/TUBeFTuUKG8?list=PLC47C58748772D11B

That guy is Kratos and doomguy in the same body. He bitchslapped aphrodite without giving a single fuck.

He fucked up two gods in a single day and the other one had to blind him repeatedly while fleeing on a chariot to get away.

Also technically Kratos is Kratos since he is an actual god. I think he might be the god of strength?

Aphrodite being the whore and cunt she is making Hades fall in love because she was mad someone rational enough to no fuck with that crap wasn't somehow under her influence is the cause of that whole mess. Blame the goddess of slutiness and soap opera for that mess.

She also probably had a dick at will.

that seems to really be letting demeter off the hook for going nuclear for literally a pretty damn standard infraction

>Also technically Kratos is Kratos since he is an actual god.

I actually totally forgot about that.

Uh, that makes no sense whatsoever.
> applying modern standards to ancient deities from a pre-ethical religion is kind of silly.
"Pre-ethical religion"? What? As far as I can tell, no civilization before the ancient Greeks has any recorded dialogue or discussions on ethical matters. The Greeks essentially invented ethics as far as this goes and there's a reason the Greeks are regarded as being the fathers of western philosophy. Almost all discussions of Greek ethics in some way referenced their religion and ethical matters were always compared to anecdotes from religion. Ethical issues regarding the gods were debated on. Greek philosophers criticized their gods on many occasions and came up with their own ethical codes. You're just an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about.
>They cannot necessarily be construed as moral in any sense to begin with
Yes they can, for reasons mentioned above. Do you think that Greeks just heard about the gods doing these awful and strange things and thought they were perfectly okay, that nobody at all felt revulsion or disdain for them?

Ever heard of virtue ethics, stoicism, hedonism? Ever even considered that philosophers such as Aristotle didn't actually take all these myths at face value but instead saw them as metaphors and fables, and at the very least fanciful and unrealistic?

The entire Greek creation myth for the beginning of the universe can be used to metaphorically represent the Big Bang. Aristotle's philosophies and ethics survive today and dominated western thinking for two thousand years. He came up with the concept of the primordial mover, the first cause, which was used to answer the argument of infinite regression when relating to God.

Modern standards descend from their standards. In fact, their philosophies and ethics are still around, moron. If you don't know what they're talking about, shut the fuck up.

Greek standards ARE western standards.

You played the Jason and the Argonauts game and suddenly think you understand Greek mythology, right?

Well yes, worshiping the deity of the underworld is quite morbid.

Greek philosophy also greatly influenced muslim thinkers before the whole area turned into a shitfest of wahabits.

He was the oldest. He was suppose to rule the gods but he drew the shortest straw.

Hades wasn't the shafted one though. Hades loved his job, and liked the fact that he had control over most of the world's wealth. Poseidon was the shafted one, he got last pick and was quite spiteful towards Zeus because of it.

That's Hermaphordite you absolute pleb.

>D&D Alignments
>Every once making any fucking sense

Choose 0.

zeus raped everything and everyone

Zeus actually gave him permission to take Persphone, as is a father's right in ancient Greece. That's why he told all the other gods not to tell Demeter where she went.

Modern standards are an invention of Western society and they're going to die with Western society.

And again Love is the cause of all suffering.

Because of stupid reinterpretation of Hades as evil dude. A hefty dose of early Christian imaginery as Satan combined with modern fear of dead and dying et voila - Hades as percieved nowdays. Has pretty much nothing with the deity Greeks worshipped.

He had a fucking job to do and that job was look after the dead unwanted by the dude-bros and hyper bitch gods. His job was not "be the cosmic undo button of other peoples fuck ups".

This

as always, first post is best post.

>Greek standards ARE western standards.
Yes, because we are all ultrapatriarchal gays that treat women, children and slaves as animals.
We literally took few bits out of all Greek standards you fucking cunt. And those bits were mostly theoretical discussion by philosophers. I advice you to read few of thems, like Plato and Aristotle to realise how little we took from them and how fucking horrible was their world-view.

dear fucking god, that's a stupid haircut
the fringe isn't even symetrical

>Wanting symmetry
>euro-centric beauty standards
>enforcing male expectations of appearance
>Not accepting him/her/other as the super special and flawless snowflake that they are

Patriarchy detected.

No, in the Bible it is heavily insinuated that is the worst they wanted to do. Lot himself offers his daughters so they could leave his guests be.

Guest rights (and the obligations that go with them) were a huge thing in some early societies.

They were said to be virginal at the time.

>Apollo cursed a woman just because she dared to say 'no'

And not just any woman, but a woman sworn to be a virgin in his name.

In the middle east at that time, and I could be very wrong about this, rape seemed to have been seen as a means of asserting dominance.

Hence the Greek "it's only gay if you are getting fucked".

By offering his daughters Lot was basically saying to the mob "you are weak, these are more your speed, now leave before you get hurt". Or maybe not.

>belittles knowledge of myths and legends
Not everyone has to be an ignorant cocksucking fuckwit like you user.

Even the erinyes were converted to protective deities, and by a matricide no less, if you take Aeschylus' plays into account

>If you eat anything while you're here, you have to stay
>*eats things*
>Ok now you have to stay
>WTF NO I DONT WANT TO MOOOOOOOOOOMMMM

>Zeus went around raping as an animal
Daily reminder he managed to rape woman while disguised as "golden rain". Greeks really had weird sexuality

Best post

Aside from China, who were conducting written bureaucratic testing reviews before the Greeks figured out math.

And then fathered a child on Persephone while she was married to Hades (Melinoe).

Zeus was a complete dick.

He's accurate. The greeks didn't like Hades. They avoided saying his name (they called him "the wealthy one" as jewels were dug from beneath the earth i.e. his realm, this is where his roman name Pluto comes from) and averted their eyes when making sacrifices to him.
The greeks feared death just like everybody else.

Shhhh. Don't you know it's either specific type of nit-picking ethnocentrism, or doesn't count?

It never cease to amaze me how much people are praising "Greek roots" without even realising how little we took from them

>averted their eyes when making sacrifices to him
That what all fucking ancient people did during sacrifices, regardless of religion and culture, you stupid cunt.
And Greek didn't like their gods in general, aside maybe Athenians constantly wanking about how much Mary Sue Athena is. Which is kind of ironic, given they themselves created such fucked up pantheon.

Now you're just a historical revisionist. Only sacrifices made to Hades and Hecate was one meant to avert your eyes. For sacrifices made to Zeus you raise your head.
The greeks loved their gods, but recognized them as flawed, humanlike beings.
And Hades they feared and considered him the god least friendly to mankind. The Iliad says as much.

Wow, knowing he was willing to let his own daughters be raped by a mob doesn't make me feel bad that his wife got turned into salt and his daughters ended up raping him after getting him drunk.

In his defense, he was mind controlled prior to the kidnapping.

>unwarranted cruelty
Welcome to Greek Myth 101,take a seat.

Or he wasn't offering them anything so much as he was taking the piss.

>just like everybody else.
FUCK YOU.
SOON I WILL FEAST IN VALHALLA AND GET MY VALKYRIE WAIFU!

Do you remember the time Ares got kidnapped as a child by a couple of giants, who put him in a jar, and was just left there for years by the other Gods because they didn't care.

You have a hoard of horny rapists knocking on your door and your first instinct is to offer up your daughters?

Even if it was in jest, it's still pretty fucked up.

Norse folk were fine with dying in battle, but scared to shit of dying anywhere else.

Rather, the ones who went into battle were scared as shit to die anywhere else. Average Joeson the peaceful farmer wouldn't particularly enjoy Valhalla in the first place.
Hel's realm wasn't that bad as long as you don't mind fish every day for the rest of time.

And weren't a murderer, adulterer, or oathbreaker.
Then you go to Nastrond where it rains acid and everybody gets gnawed on by Nidhogg. Forever.