/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

Give Beasts a way to remember when time has been changed because they have no way to counter it if they aren't teamed up with Mages. You could just make it a benefit of a custom Epic Eidetic Memory Merit. Beasts should do fine in a crossover game. They can get some pretty nasty Kinship Nightmares from Mages and they are hard for a Mage to actually effect with magic if they take Looming Presence. Beasts are brutal in combat and good at non-intrusive social stuff when dealing with things like spirits and other monsters if they decide to focus on those things.

What about giving beast players each a single form of mage sight? I feel like this would fit the setting with horrors being supernal in origin, and i don't think itd step too much on the toes of any potential mage player.

I really want to see an update for The Quiescent, mostly because I'm curious about what shape they'd take now that vulgar magic doesn't exist anymore.

>The Quiescent
The who?

Beasts are very strong in combat, the actual issue with this cross over is that they have little else to do outside of it. Mages are so overwhelmingly useful at everything, the beasts are going to feel outclassed anytime they aren't actively punching a dozen people at once. It's fine in theory but just be wary of mages who will never ever ever open combat (because they don't have to, they're mages) and remember that Beasts are by default one trick ponies and with best paired with similarly limited splats.

They're from Mge Noir, which is the best Mage supplement of all time and what sold me on the line. Their basic idea is that they believe in working within the constraints of the Lie and never cast vulgar magic, and their Attainments are all about erasing their own pasts.

So I'm going to be running a Geist game soon and the group is looking very underworld/occult journey oriented.

Any advice for running a game set mostly in the great below? I've already got a few domains picked out to be the sorta local neighborhood (Athenaeum, Killing Fields, the Forge, one based on firelink shrine, and Lowgate Prison at the far edge). I'm torn right now on how personable to make the Kerberoi. Something between Cthuthlu and Beetlejuice right now.
The only rules tweak I'm looking at so far is letting them bring others across a river for plasm, but other ideas would be appreciated.

I don't think that repeatedly asking about it here is going to help. Especially since you are using a trip, so that it's obvious it's just one guy asking for it.

Anyhow, did they have mechanical constraints on never casting vulgar spells?

Well you don't really need to add that rule. There are gates in the underworld that allows people to go lower. That way everyone can go through.

Seems like they just wouldn't exist.

Maybe they reject the gross arcana? A weird sect of Guardians who consider the highest magical art Wisdom and never ever incur paradox, like ever? And then also the past erasure thing?

But the Dark Mother and Heroes are interesting.

>My idea is that horrors were originally supernal beings that before the fall were able to sate their hungers upon mankind
The Dark Mother was clearly a protoPangaean, too. Also it was Luna.

I want to see fan created bloodlines and legacies, and I want to see them cover new territory, not just do the same old same old. I want to see stuff that changes up the usual rules, like those Bloodlines that come from two Parent Clans.

The one Kerberoi I used was a big emaciated corpse twice the size of a regular person and with a shroud over his face. He looked like something from Keith Thompson, and was a big scary mummy who was remarkably strong. He challenged the lone sin-eater to a game of wits (from Princess Bride) and the sin-eater mixed the two drinks together and drank half the poison. He was punished with being unable to speak without paying Willpower, and only a whisper, until he got the Kerberoi a Deathmask. So not exactly silent and implacable, but I don't know if I'd call him "personable". Go with something that makes them feel suitably old and ancient and inhuman.

Also, I can't find it in Geist, so it may be Book of the Dead, but I think Sin-eaters can become Ferrymen. There's also though they take heavy tolls. The Kerberoi above was from one of them, and the player had to cut his own hand off to open the door.

>But the Dark Mother and Heroes are interesting.

As someone who doesn't get Heroes; What is the interesting part about them?

Legacy of Space Mages who enchant pieces of stone or metal and hide them around the world forming a perfect web. They goal to cover all planet including bottom of the ocean and to be able to move Earth itself to travel with humanity far far away.

Thats interesting character to roleplay. Not something you can build for yourself, but role of blinded man can be good on its own.

Sounds like an impressive endgame, several million years from now. What are their more immediate goals?

What do you mean?

I've already planned a gate to the Killing Fields that looks like a ww2 era bunker full of medical equipment. They'll have to donate a pint of blood to get through it.

I'll try to check book of the dead again when I home, but being a ferryman would fit one of the characters very well.

Injecting enchanted parts into historical buildings and monuments to ensure no one gonna steal, move, or destroy one.
Expedition to remote places to place enchanted stone.
Watching over this "nodes" and protecting them.

i mean i understand people who want to play as a Hero.

But why? Why???

They're basically just Beasts who decided not to be Beasts. I can't remember if it made it into the final draft or if it was just a fan idea or what, but there was one thing where if you reject the Devouring you become a Hero. Or maybe that's just what Melanie is. Either way, I like that Heroes are deluded and entitled. I really wish I could remember what it comes from, but I remember this one scene in a movie or comic or video game or something where a guy is shouting that he's the hero even when he clearly isn't. He did something to freak everyone out, like beat someone up or something, and was trying to assure everyone that this is his story and he's the hero. Although "this isn't your story" was kind of scrubbed away

Still, I like the fact that in the final draft, Heroes can be good guys who don't kill Beasts and ease their nightmares by trying to soothe the Primordial Dream. I like that they're basically people who's reaction to problems in their life is to lash out for praise and attention. I even like all of the example Heroes except for the one who looks like Mark Strong (I said Henry Rollins last time)

Thaddeus is more than just a neckbeard. He's a great antagonist because he's someone the players will underestimate. Hell, he works great as a Banisher or a Hunter or Abmortal; anything

Marian is great. Old lady catches her son's vampire girlfriend and decides she needs to murder all monsters. Again, fits just about any antagonist group

And best of all is Melanie. Melanie is a tragic, sympathetic villain. She always was. As-written, she doesn't care what kind of Beast she aids in killing. She's just going after all of them so that the Heroes will help her wake up, but none of them do. It's likely that she's killed innocent Beasts. That shit is golden. Your players will either kill her, in which case you make that as emotionally devastating as possible, or they'll try to cure her, in which case you make that as emotionally rewarding as possible

What is better:
Comet is coming to hit the Earth and kill everybody and they trying to save humanity from it.
They hear a voice from eridanus supervoid who calls for them and they believe its the exit from Lie prison there so they trying to bring all their mage and sleeper friends with them. Fuck this lets bring whole planet.

>move the planet
>all life dies anyway because climate
Your idea is dumb, and not the kind of dumb that Mage is built on.

I think you can do something with the climate its not impossible. Like creating a smaller sun in new place that orbit earth instead.

i don't think even archmasters can build new stars, dude. Just let this flight of fancy go.

forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/werewolf-the-forsaken/897648-midumu-blade-claimed

Now Heroes are just born Heroes and when their Integrity drops low enough they go all stab-happy, like some sort of Beast focused Slasher.

Stars actually simple as fuck, its just really lots of stuff in one place. Small sun is actually can be hard to do.

I mentioned that, yes. I like that. Although that doesn't really void "Heroes as rejection of the Devouring". After all, Beasts are also born Beasts, but they don't come into it until the Devouring.

I can't really remember, but I think there's also some kind of implication that you can Devour someone else, and become their Horror. I may be misremembering, or it could be another fan idea.

You're going full Gonzo. You never go...

Actually this could be fun. Just keep in mind that most people here will assume you either don't understand the game or are just playing around.

Also, since this Legacy puts a lot of work into their project they will want something to show for it. Like establishing useful teleportation networks. Mapping global leylines. Facilitating expeditions into the oceanic depths. Stopping earthquakes from mucking about with their work.

If you want to go less Gonzo, you can keep the Earth where it is. You can say they build a grid to triangulate teleportations onto other planets and make expeditions there. Still too crazy for some games but...

>Gonzo.
Why did I picture Chancellor and Prophet as Statler and Waldorf?

I don't know, but if you figure it out I want in on this.

Also, it clearly should be the Eye and the Ruin.

The low integrity use to be a thing. Now hero's come in all variety of integrity. Its just that high integrity hero's tend to not bother Beast.
They are off teaching people good morals and life lesson.

Moving thing is not important, i just like the idea of placing markers everywhere and controlling them. Besides there is alot conspiracy theories like picrelated claiming that pyramids, anomalies, ancient cities forms gridlike structure on surface of Earth, i want to play on that idea.

I think keeping the good Heroes out of the game is keeping the Gameline from reaching it's full potential. A Hero that can't be dismissed as a jerk could force the Beast to reevaluate their actions and maybe trigger character growth instead of (or in addition to) killing a person.

It's like - Beasts teach lessons to the world by being beastly. The world teaches Beasts with Heroes.

I think you have a fair point.

But that's not true. Beasts are a monster in the dark that the world doesn't need anymore, and Heroes are a champion of virtue that isn't doing their job. I like that. They're both flawed. Only a Hero that isn't selfish and egotistical is truly free of the cycle. Beasts at least know they're a little outdated.

That is the whole problem with the idea - it's nothing but your weird fetish with no substance or logic behind it. That kind of conspiracy theory /x/ bullshit is something that should be Infrastructure or spirits or fae, not mages doing it because 'why don't we just take the planet and puuuuuuush it somewhere else'.

There is a lot holding Beast back, but not having at least partially sympathetic Heroes is definitely a problem. One of the reasons I like Werewolf so much is because the Pure are understandable and, in specific instances, can even be 'right', and that lets their relationships with the Forsaken be more complex. Heroes (and Beasts) are not complex, and that makes good stories and roleplaying way more difficult.

>Given the opportunity to counter-argue the amazing depth and complexity that has (assumedly) been given to Awakening mages within the second edition of their game.
>Instead gives a kindergarten insult.
Everything I have come to expect from CoD.

That's pretty cool. You can do a lot with that. You can throw in geomantic projects ret-conned by the Fall. Fighting with other supernatural factions to have your resonance win out. Throw in the God-Machine, Mummy architects, Seers and Banishers being contrary. Your Legacy just needs a good goal and some immediate motivation so they don't lose interest.

McFarland has some lousy ideas about morality. He believes antagonists shouldn't be playable, because of that they have to be not worth playing. Unfortunately the first attempt at this just made them jerks.

He's doing it again in Promethean with alchemists. It was easy to do in Demon.

>He's doing it again in Promethean with alchemists
Eh?

Promethean added alchemists as antagonists. They're "less mature" than Ascended Ones, but have more powers and won't have support.

I'm gonna be an alchemist

Prepare to have less fun than the least fun splat.

You make sense. A lot comes down to personal taste, but if I ever ran Beast I would replace Heroes with Imbued from Hunter: The Reckoning.

That way you could have such matches like:
Predator limits themselves to hunting deer and considers themself safe.
vs
Lee Harvey Oswald wannabe Avenger harasses him. Proves that safety requires vigilance.

Tyrant has corrupted the Local law enforcement into aiding and abetting his predations. Doesn't respect the little people.
vs
Defender supports the media, civil movements and fairer authorities in shredding the Monsters assets. Shows what the little people can do together.

You know you can't play the strix in Vampire, right? Or that you can't play a spirit or god forbid a idigam in Werewolf, right?
Nor do I think will you be able to play a Huntsmen.

Antagonists are the enemy. Not a playable option at base.

Oh, yes! I was baffled too.
Reverse-Promeheans? Reaching for the stars, but forgetting where they come from and ruining their own lives in the process? That's a beautiful tragedy that underscores the themes of Promethean. PC Alchemists balancing ambition and self-awareness? There's an entire gameline based on that! Hello, Mage!

The problem is Alchemists and Heroes are human.

Sounds awful, why would you bring oWoD filth here

Then it should be easy enough for you to make an exp chart for them

I can play a strix wannabe

Does anyone else feel that sneering at Alchemists might have made them compelling, while glorification of Beasts backfired?

Holy shit, I was just finishing up reading the last thread while reading up on what the hell mages were or did and I got to Legacies. I realized that Z splats are pretty much my favorite things.

I love Offspring, a game with a Fractal could be hella fun.

Awful because oWOD or awful and oWOD?
I liked some of the ideas in Reckoning, but it's been a long time. I'm not sorry for it, though.
If the horribleness comes from me however, then don't let me off easy. Lay it on me, person.

Agh! I meant to reply to you.

Also, Beast vs Innocent Creed - Hellsing's Alucard vs Bella Swan. If that doesn't get you I surrender.

Belials Brood?

But the Pure aren't right and Heroes can explicitly be sympathetic.

But they ARE practically the Imbued. They get their powers from the Primordial Dream instead of the Messengers. They still have mystical dreams that tell them to kill. The only thing that's missing is a DmC style block letter graffiti and a sinister voice going "KILL DANTE".

What

You can play Belial's Brood or VII, or Pure or Ghost Wolves.

You can't even play a Centimani in new Promethean.

>Hellsing's Alucard vs Bella Swan
She throws herself at him, expecting romance...but he rips her to pieces and feeds her soul to Baskerville.

>But the Pure aren't right
They aren't right about Luna cursing them about silver, they do seem to be right about everything else.

Not the previous guy.
The problem isn't that they're not supported. It's some of the developers' attitude that baffles us.

It just keeps getting worse

No, a vampire that wears a owl costume and hangs around aviaries.

They're right about nothing. You're wrong about what they want and what they hate.

>But they ARE practically the Imbued. They get their powers from the Primordial Dream instead of the Messengers. They still have mystical dreams that tell them to kill. The only thing that's missing is a DmC style block letter graffiti and a sinister voice going "KILL DANTE".
I guess I wasn't clear. Yes, they are practically the Imbued, except the Imbued had more variety, more approaches to monsters, more hooks to make a compelling story.
>What
I was trying to be funny to diffuse the kinda-sorta-not-really antagonizing comment from that user.
I'm very wrong if you're right, but wouldn't he consider this too hilarious to not play around first?

They make a mockery of Father Wolf's legacy while claiming that they are the better children. The Ivory Claws are a bunch of elitist blood purity fucks and the Predator Kings want to destroy the world as we know it because of muh hunter's paradise.

>They're right about nothing.
They're right about the Forsaken killing Urfarah and losing Pangaea for everyone.
>You're wrong about what they want and what they hate.
Those who disrespect the hunt, who disrespect the Shadow, who disrespect their family. Forsaken have a big check on the last one, what with abandoning Urfarah's system entirely for Luna's.

How about this?
A bully-strangling Hag vs Petty delinquent

>They make a mockery of Father Wolf's legacy while claiming that they are the better children.
They are, just better children of Urfarah than Luna. They really don't make a mockery of Urfarah's legacy, the Predator Kings hold closest to it of all.

You mean his legacy of making sure everyone stayed on their side of the Border Marches? Because they seem to be shitting on that left and right.

Except the Pangaea they want didn't exist. The Pure are the ones who turned their back on Urfarah's "system". The Forsaken honour the Wolf.

The Predator Kings don't, though. They readily admit that Urfarah was weak and as such deserved to die. They more than any other Tribe choose to ignore his legacy and appoint themselves the masters of the world. If Urfarah lived, they would each and every one of them feel her jaws around their throats. The Pure defile the blessings of one father and pervert or ignore the duties of the other. They're whiny children who feel pissed off that a world of glory was taken from them, but they don't actually want to fulfill the duty that comes with that paradise.

Meanwhile, the Forsaken acknowledge their part in destroying the hunter's paradise and still uphold their sacred duty.

Stop pls

>but wouldn't he consider this too hilarious to not play around first?
Sure why not.

You're right. I've gone too far. I've become the thing I hated. I will stop now.

The Border Marches don't exist anymore. It's all about the hunt now.
>Except the Pangaea they want didn't exist. The Pure are the ones who turned their back on Urfarah's "system". The Forsaken honour the Wolf.
Sure it did, that's why they're trying to bring it back. And the Forsaken just hunt, that's it.
>If Urfarah lived, they would each and every one of them feel her jaws around their throats.
Urfarah wouldn't give a shit. That was his thing, he did not care at all about the Uratha.
>The Pure defile the blessings of one father and pervert or ignore the duties of the other.
They embrace their heritage and disavow Luna, there's no defiling or perverting.
>They're whiny children who feel pissed off that a world of glory was taken from them, but they don't actually want to fulfill the duty that comes with that paradise.
Because they're trying to get that paradise back, and damn the modern world if that's what it takes.
>Meanwhile, the Forsaken acknowledge their part in destroying the hunter's paradise and still uphold their sacred duty.
They didn't have a sacred duty but what Luna gave them.

Alucard is not the type of character to go around murdering naive teenage girls. Alucard would look down on Edward, but he wouldn't kill him, either. I doubt Alucard would care about the stalking, and he'd probably approve of a vampire that doesn't hurt anyone.
Did all these edgy teens watch a different Hellsing or something where Alucard is Always Chaotic Evil and kills random innocents for fun like some kind of edgy hedgehog OC?

No, keep going.

The Pure let spirits do whatever they want. They see the nature of the world as one where Spirits are on top. They don't at all keep any semblance of balance. Meanwhile, the Forsaken do. Some of them even hunt down Urfarah's old enemies, the Hosts, while others face monsters he would have had trouble with, like the Claimed.

Father Wolf was all about the balance. I very much think he'd care if his children were fucking that up, and disavowing the Warding Moon and ignoring the duties of the Wolf is not embracing their heritage. The Forsaken follow Urfarah's will. They uphold the Wolf's duties and follow it's teachings. They exalt their Father in hunting the things he wants hunted and through five of the Firstborn they carry out his desires even as he's dead. The Pure do not. They pervert his goals and ignore the ones that don't suit them. They don't want duty or responsibility, they want power and prestige and supplicants.

The Pure want Pangaea but they don't want to do the things that Father Wolf did. They use the Hunt to satisfy their rage and nothing more.

>No, keep going.
I've got one more in me, seriously now.
Predator who targets defenseless sex-workers and considers themselves righteous.
vs
Visionary who blackmails them into targeting heads of criminal organizations who arguably have it coming, but can strike back.

>Alucard is not the type of character to go around murdering naive teenage girls. Alucard would look down on Edward, but he wouldn't kill him, either. I doubt Alucard would care about the stalking, and he'd probably approve of a vampire that doesn't hurt anyone.
Also, thank you.

>The Pure let spirits do whatever they want.
Untrue. They hunt spirits as well, they just don't care as much about spirits that predate on humans. They'll still hunt and kill spirits they have a problem with.
>They see the nature of the world as one where Spirits are on top.
They're aiming for one where they're on top.
>They don't at all keep any semblance of balance. Meanwhile, the Forsaken do. Some of them even hunt down Urfarah's old enemies, the Hosts, while others face monsters he would have had trouble with, like the Claimed.
The Pure hunt the hosts as well.
>Father Wolf was all about the balance. I very much think he'd care if his children were fucking that up, and disavowing the Warding Moon and ignoring the duties of the Wolf is not embracing their heritage.
You are attributing a lot more virtue to Father Wolf than is demonstrable in his appearance. By all accounts he only cared for the hunt, and didn't give a shit about the Uratha or the First Pack and even barely about the Firstborn.

>The Forsaken follow Urfarah's will. They uphold the Wolf's duties and follow it's teachings. They exalt their Father in hunting the things he wants hunted and through five of the Firstborn they carry out his desires even as he's dead. The Pure do not. They pervert his goals and ignore the ones that don't suit them. They don't want duty or responsibility, they want power and prestige and supplicants.
You think that he hunted because he viewed it as his sacred duty. But it's more likely he hunted because he was a hunter. And he hunted things that crossed the Border Marches because he -was- the Border Marches and wouldn't leave them.

You're also missing a lot about the Pure, and making up a lot of stuff that isn't really shown in the books.

>The Pure want Pangaea but they don't want to do the things that Father Wolf did.
They find the hunt just as sacred as the Forsaken do.
>They use the Hunt to satisfy their rage and nothing more.
No book supports this.

Jesus fucking Christ, I'm not going to have this argument with you again. The Pure aren't "right".

They're as "right" as the Forsaken are.

"I don't want world domination" is objectively more right than "I want world domination"

>Some of them even hunt down Urfarah's old enemies, the Hosts, while others face monsters he would have had trouble with, like the Claimed.
He's right, though. You should probably read the books before you go on these rants. Your overall point is really hard to get across with all the being wrong.

Reminder that the Forsaken are secret fascist spirit police who believe it is not only their duty, but their right, to control how the Shadow, the Gauntlet, and the Fallen World intersect. They want to be in charge, too, they just don't want to be open about it.

"We could have ruled de worl' together Gru. But now, you're gonna die."
youtube.com/watch?v=xM5Y737AdBQ
Apologies for the abysmal quality of this one.