Setting has elemental gods

>Setting has benevolent gods
>Setting has evil gods
>Setting has gods that understand the consequences of their actions enough to be considered morally culpable
>Gods that do not act almost exclusively on impulse
>The gods' power moves the world predictably and purposefully, rather than ending in a mess of collateral damage with a dubious success rate

Not all fire gods are evil, user.

Related.
archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/47391394/#47391960

Fire used by humans is different. It's enslaved, tamed fire.
Fire god SHOULD be evil.

>steampunk versions of modern appliances
>race inserted purely for comedy
>a dozen kinds of magic that work completely different and are often tied to small groups
>stacking multiple tears of escalating powerful cosmology that is inconsequential to everything
>special race that is super wonderful and can do no wrong
>technology is evil, nature is good

>setting has more than five or so gods
>all evil gods are in some way linked to death

Ideally your setting should have titans/giants representing the primal elements and younger gods and heroes representing the tame ones. Your god of storms vs a god of fishing and ships, or your god of untamed fire vs a goddess of hearthfire. IRL pantheons often have redundancy and multiple generations, though it's messier than having a bunch of 1:1 equivalents.

Fire should be Chaotic, but I don't see Evil.

And the other elements shouldn't? Earthquakes, floods, tjunamis, tornados, and hurricanes can be just as destructive as wildfires and volcanoes, and volcanoes are really a mix of earth and fire anyway.

You. I like you.
>race inserted purely for comedy
>special race that is super wonderful and can do no wrong
Worst of all, when these two are combined into one race.

>>a dozen kinds of magic that work completely different and are often tied to small groups

This is actually good worldbuilding.

Most of these arent bad except for
>Special race that is super wonderful and can do no wrong
Usually a mouthpiece for the DMs political/cultural views, always shitty

>Technology is evil, nature is good
Yeah, those terrible evil vaccines beating up good polio

>Fire god
>Evil
Warmth, light, cooking food, cleansing wounds, boiling water
Eat a cocksickle OP

I wasn't talking about using the same framework of magic in different way depending on culture and faction. I meant going kitchen sink with magic systems.

B-but vaccines give autism!

I'd worship the god of eggs, bacon, and weed.
If such a god existed it would probably be my favorite next to the god of tits and wine

...

>MFW people actually believe this

>Fire god advocates fire everywhere, always
>Wants to burn everything and everyone till nothing remains

Now we've got some antagonist material.

>applying morals to the deification of a chemical reaction.

Maybe, but you sure picked a bad example to prove that one.

>There is a perfect communist people that are just better than all of the other civilizations that hold great disdain for the "Uncivilized folk"
Bonus points if they don't expand violently but somehow have shit tons of land and people join them voluntarily because they are just better
I have see this, and yes the DM was a cuck bernie supporter

Don't be stupid, user. Where do you think humanity learned how to tame fire from? The Fire God, through its priests, teaches us to control fire. But it also teaches us to respect it, for even a tame fire may grow wild without its favor.

>However its incarnations are barely sentient and easy to tame or redirect
This sounds more like fire incarnate

>Where do you think humanity learned how to tame fire from?

Prometheus stole the primordial fire and carried it down to our ancestors.

>deification of a chemical reaction
Oh, come off it.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fire_gods
There's a lot of good shit here and most of them aren't evil.

>Usually a mouthpiece for the DMs political/cultural views, always shitty
NOTHING pisses me off more than this.
I make it a point to have visible flaws in every nation/culture in my settings.
Even the happy-go-lucky moogle-esque nature geeks, stereotypically the 'perfect' race in most settings, have the fatal flaws of being cowardly, annoying little shits with no idea how the outside world works and a civilization so backwards it boggles the mind.

Calcifer the fire demon confirmed best fire incarnate

Yes, which is why Greek Myth doesn't have a Fire God.

The god of fire yearns to break free from its slavery and wreak revenge on mankind.

But user, my civilization would work because I'm smarter than you so I would see the flaws and correct them.
You just aren't as smart as me so your civilizations have flaws
>MFW I'm doing worldbuilding with someone and this is their argument.

...are you saying fire isn't a chemical reaction?

Lately people have taken to giving autistic kids bleach enemas because they think the autism is caused by parasites. When the kid shits out their damaged intestinal lining they think that they purged a parasite.

I'm saying that chemical reactions don't mean shit when chemistry isn't an understood science, as is the case 99.9% of the time there are actively worshiped deities of the 4 classical elements.

>it is the normal world, except there are hidden vampires. Setting done!
>color-coded dragons
>race or faction that is so enlightened that they do literally nothing ever
>elemental planes with elemental themed content
>breaking the fourth wall
>awareness of game mechanics

Which still does not change the fact that a fire god is the deification of a chemical reaction.

Besides, even if we are running off Aristotelian elements, they are still amoral. They are the things which make up other things.

Do you really have a point?

The god of fire should always remind his followers that flames rise, not crash to the ground.

>Read this on Veeky Forums
>"All things here are artistic works of fiction..."
>Look it up out of curiosity
independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/autism-potentially-lethal-bleach-cure-feared-to-have-spread-to-britain-a6744291.html
I...I need a moment. The stupidity is too much

>God of Death
>Is evil

Is there anything worse?

My point is that you're a ponce and that pointing out that fire is chemistry offers nothing to anything.

>Greek mythology setting

>HADES IS A BAD GUY
>HADES IS A GOD GUY

Both of these are equally shit. He is pretty clearly as neutral as it gets.

>it is the normal world, except there are hidden vampires

As long as the vampires are done well, I'm down. It may not be realistic, but "normal world, but secretly x exists" can be really fun.

So, nothing?

Good talk friend, good talk.

>Gandalf the Grey
>Evil

There's a saying where I come from: fire is a good servant but a bad master. God of fire probably wouldn't be evil, considering how vital fire is, but he might be portrayed as irresponsible or kind of dickish, likely to set things on fire if other gods don't reign him in, just like leaving fire unsupervised is a bad idea.

oh you

>Make ordinary medieval setting. Hey magic was nanomachines all along what a tweest! Does that change anything? No, but nanomachines!
>No food source to be found. Massive Metropolis!
>Those amazing stuff you just read about? The game is set 10000 years later, when nothing happens.

itt fagbabies who are scared of a little fire

Thanks, got an idea for my novel now.

>fagbabies

>race inserted purely for comedy
>special race that is super wonderful and can do no wrong
>Worst of all, when these two are combined into one race.

I am having a seizure just thinking about my hate for Kender.

>god of tits and wine
Bacchus is your god then

Is Tracy Hickman history's greatest monster for inventing Kender?

Yes. Yes he is.

Death should be true neutral at best because its just a natural thing that happens, it doesn't seek to give death nor should it truly care about preventing it. Death happens when it happens.

>Worldbuilder tries to make his setting "deep", and "interesting", and "though-provoking".
>Just adds topical RL political analogues.

>neutral death gods
ugh. I get it. you read sandman and thought the perkygoth chick was cute.
Evil death gods are the way.
>b-buh everyone dies! it's neutral
do you know any evil people who cut dudes slack for also being evil? Do serial killers get ready to carve up a victim, see his vic is a neo-nazi, and let him go?
no. Death comes for EVERYTHING. Death wants it all, and is gonna take everything, and there's nothing you can do to stop it. He won't be bartered with, begging won't get him to let you go.
It's going to happen. Quit struggling. Just lie back and take it.

Yeah, Death is evil.

lord gwyn go home, the age of fire is over.

>Death
>An entity

God of murder and drowning and violent death, yes. Psychopomp? not so much. DEATH itself? sure as shit not.

There are multiple ways of interpretting fire, OP. Fire can be any of

>hatred, suffering, death, despair
>warmth, comfort, life, hope
>wild, powerful, fleeting, awe inspiring
>innovative, determined, passionate, illuminating

Depending on what a given group of people does and where they live, they'll see fire in different ways.

For instance, a society that makes its living by farming will view fire as a horrible, terrible catastrophe, something to be treated with great suspicion and care at best or something to be avoided at all costs at worst.

Whereas some dudes living up so far north your balls will shrivel just thinking about it will view fire as their god given savior, a source of hope and salvation.

>The personification of things ending possesses morality.
Cool story bro

>ugh. I get it. you read sandman and thought the perkygoth chick was cute.

I read Reaper Man, Mort, Hogfather, and Thief of Time, you can eat shit.

without death life has no meaning

death is what makes life special.

>Setting has elemental gods
>God of metal isn't brutal

But user, he is is a god guy. Isn't he also about as close to "good" as the Greek gods got?

I thought Discworld had the preferred "neutral Death" character?

Technically, that's more on system than setting. But I get what you're saying.
How do you feel about those cases where (in a class-based game) certain classes are restricted to certain cultures? Ie, all wizards are from these two countries because only they do book-learning magic, the witches of the moor are the only example of xyz, and so on. Do you feel that's still too complicated?

Gwyn wasn't really any more or less evil than a lot of Greek gods. Selfish and a dick? Sure. Evil? Not quite.

Granted, he's not even a god of fire, the fire just empowered him - he's really just the head god among those who were empowered by the First Flame.

Discworld Death is nominally neutral but effectively Good.

>I have cred because I read (admittedly clever and high-quality) YA humorous fantasy books.

Unless you're a teenager, you get zero brownie points for being familiar with Pratchett.

The Greek gods were above morality. Because they were gods.

To be fair...Kender are not exactly an invention.
Kender are a personification of That Guy's favorite PC in the early days of DnD.
I have no fucking idea WHY the asshole Halfling thief is the oldest trope in fantasy gaming, but pretty much from the beginning it's been a cliché. (Right up to early Dragon magazine referring to Frodo Baggins as a master thief...seriously, nobody's ever bothered to do the reading.)
So, Hickman decided to create a version of Halflings that reflect how they actually acted at the table. Was it a good idea? Fuck no, of course not! But, that's what happened.
(Greenwood's version in Forgotten Realms, where Halflings see themselves as the up-and-comers, like matching wits with other races, and love spending money on themselves and their friends, is a little better I guess, but not by much.)

the greek gods were not above morality, because they could be killed.

>early Dragon magazine referring to Frodo Baggins as a master thief
Are you sure they didn't say Bilbo, who was explicitly acquired for thieving purposes?

Yeah, I honestly disagree with 'Death is always Neutral' as much as I disagree with 'Death is always Evil'. There are enough aspects of and perspectives on Death that it can be seen in a lot of different lights.
But then again, even though it's a useful shorthand for explaining your pantheon, if you're only defining your god by their portfolio, it's probably a shit god.

>the god of death gets so fed up with being called evil that he quits
>the world is now full of people who can't die but new people are still being born
>other people are in constant hell of not being able to die (like people who have fallen into valcanos and people buried in caveins etc.)

looks like we've actually gone full circle with the discussion as prometheus had his liver eaten everyday by vultures and was not permitted death

Nope. If it'd been Bilbo, I would understand.
The editor refers to an adventuring party having their entire haul stolen by Frodo Baggins.

Fire will still be hungry when contained and would be extinguished if it are everything it can.

> they could be killed
That's mortality chump.

Started as a teen, not so much a teen anymore but still and appreciator of Pratchett.

nice try nerd, i was implying that if you can be killed then you are not above morality as you can receive punishments.

>FIRE IZ EVUL!!!

Obvious troll is obvious.

I...it....
That implies that the dead go to an afterlife that features reward and punishment.
The Greek afterlife for mortals only barely involves that.
And for the gods....oh yeah, the gods CAN'T ACTUALLY BE KILLED!
Those immortal beings in Tartarus weren't slain, they were imprisoned. Closest you get is the myths where Atlas is turned to stone...and his 'soul' doesn't move on to the after world, he's just...unfeeling, uncaring stone.
So...they're actually above both morality *and* mortality, by your (pretty terrible) definitions.

>discworld death
>neutral
the job is neutral. the entity is clearly not

That is fine.

When it is this it becomes a problem:

>Wizards do arcane magic by researching gestures etc.
>Bards use explicitly the power of music that is a different thing than doing incantations that just happen to be sung. No it is magic music.
>Psions just think extra hard and unlock their minds.
>then there is runesmiths who do runes obviously
>then a demon summoner could use runes in pentagrams... but no he uses the true names of demons
>then the clerics just ask god to do stuff

I guess what matters is if a setting does the legwork to connect it's traditions so that they feel like they belong in the same world, instead of just plucking them modular. Of course you could explain why all of these fit together, but most settings never ever bother.

not to mention undead are almost always evil and are shown to be dealt with by fire

Oh! I think I get what you're saying.
You prefer there to be a Unified Theory of Magic, then? Where most of the magic done in the world can be traced back to the same source, just with different methods of tapping into it?

Same here, but I don't think Pratchett's the best example to give while defending your oh-so-superior taste. That's like being called a fat slob and responding by saying you eat your greens at dinnertime, in my opinion, at least.

>But user, he is is a god guy. Isn't he also about as close to "good" as the Greek gods got?
Eh, second place. Hestia would take first.

I actually prefer magic similar to this, but rare and/or limited. When you have several different types of subtle or low-power magic that do their own things, you can use that to introduce more depth to the traditions of your setting's cultures. It also makes it feel more "magical", especially if it's not fully explained.

Fuck off, bioconservative.

Jesus Christ, your autism levels are off the charts. Take your Fedora and vape pen and go, you don't belong near anything fantasy, you'd just suck the fun out of it with your constant "b-b-b-but muh science".

My fire god - often invoked as the god of ambition - may be rather evil. He slew his sister, the goddess of the hearth fire, to gain her portfolio and consolidate his power. He's also recently usurped the death god as the ruler, and judges souls who pass through the afterlife only by how well they served HIM, not any other god. Basically, he's trying to turn a polytheistic religion into a monotheistic religion with angels and demons. It's working pretty well. Except that he's petty, tyrannical, and an all-around dick, so the PCs are going to have to do something about that.