So 5e fighter gets seven ability advances by level 20. Meaning a +14 total to ability scores

It means a few things
>fighters hit 20 first
>fighters have more feats
>fighters have 2 or 3 stats at 20 - better saves/skills come to mind or 20 INT EKs

20 CON, 20 DEX, and 20 STR just make them good at fighting, nothing more.

> thinking that "low power" means "low stats"

It means magic doesn't scale like it did in 3.5, retard. A fighter with 20s all around is not actually really that powerful.

You being a simpleton on top of ignoring 2/3 points doesn't make you capable of more than combat.

>5e designers couldn't come up with any good ideas for feats, so there are only a couple of them
>make up for it by forcing characters to choose between feats and ability score bonuses
>people play this system
>loads of people
>way more people than my systemfu

Any decent fighter is going to want feats which means sacrificing ability score ups.

Hell, take great weapon fighting, sentinel, and heavy armor master for that 3 DR against non magical attacks. You'll still get some stat ups and you'll still bone the enemy.

Unless a wizard decides to disintegrate you and you fuck up the dex saving throw. Which happened to my fighter on the final boss fight of our campaign when I beat the ever loving shit out of the boss and tripped him so everyone else could ground pound his rectum.

Okay, dummies. Those extra two feat slots? Those are pure shit. For a lot of reasons.

1. ASIs are capped at 20. Bounded accuracy isn't going to break from these.

2. Bonus feats would be nice, except that the Fighter loses out on a whole level of class features to get them. This would be okay if feats scaled well, but

3. feats and ASIs get weaker as you go up in level. At level 1 if you're a human or level 4 otherwise, you're going to either put a +2 to your prime stat or snag a feat. This will be the most valuable ASI. Next you'll get the second most valuable. Then the third. Every single ASI and Feat is accessible from level 1, so there's zero reason not to grab the best stuff first.

This means that when you get that 6th and 7th extra feat, it's the shittiest ones left over. Which is bad enough but

4. Other classes gain new features when they gain feats. At 8th level, the wizard gets an extra 4th level spell slot, can prepare an extra spell per day, and learns any two spells. AND the wizard gets an ASI. At 8th level, the Fighter gets a feat and jack shit.

So bitching about how these "extra" feats break the fighter is the dumbest shit I've ever heard.

Pretty much this

>wah fighters are broken
>except when a wizard disintegrates them >because each class has something going for them, crazy right?

what is your systemfu user?

Fantasy Craft. There are about six players on the planet, I wager.
>pic related, fighter equivalent's bonus feats, not including the one every three levels that everyone gets

Give me an elevator pitch, what do you like about it?

The lack of players.

Huge character customization, actually balanced, everyone has interesting things to do in combat, fun weapons system, notoriously easy to homebrew, great NPC builder system makes prepping sessions (especially those using custom monsters and characters) a breeze, skills relevant in combat, good social and downtime mechanics.

And the feats. The feats are really fun.

Oh and magic is very simple mechanically, no need to track spells per day and whatnot.

FC is Pathfinder with the balance tipped in favor of martials, and not as extreme. And it's alsmost all of it's good parts are in comparison to 3.pf only, except they've tacked on "customization" as an additional perk.

It has a fan base that will defend it to the death with anyone that will listen, even though FC is in the same "over the top super-hero fantasy" camp that 3.pf is in. 5e is purposely and distinctly counter to that level of ridiculousness.

Wooptie fookin doo. The fighter now hits +5% more often and does +1 damage. Tell me how that's overpowered while you fly around and throw fireballs at every encounter with a contingency spell always ready to dimension door yourself away from harm.

That's 3.pf. In 5e the wizard flies and throws fireballs for three rounds while the fighter greater cleaves his way though an army over the course of two days.

>fighters hit 20 first
Everyone gets at 4, then Fighter gets one at 6, next time they get an extra is 14. By then everyone has max primary stat, so they are at most 1 ahead. Even then, most feats that are worth taking before maxing primary stat are weapon feats, so if you're using DW, reach, and sometimes sword n' board and GWF as well, then that extra ASI will be a feat instead, which is comparable to the feature / higher level spells that other classes gets.
>fighters have more feats
Yes, and it's part of their powers. They are not OP, so what is the problem if not balance?
>fighters have 2 or 3 stats at 20 - better saves/skills come to mind or 20 INT EKs
Your point?

The 20 cap is probably a combination of future proofing and encouraging people to make more roleplay based decisions at character creation since the penalty is only to be temporarily weaker than an optimized character.
What you're saying might make sense in a vacuum, but fucking everybody allows feats

>fighters get the most benefit from ability scores
>fighters get the most benefit from feats
>fighters are the best at combat
And yet you ask for more numbers for no reason whatsoever. You're not even making an argument *for* anything, just saying I'm right and then leaving it at that.

Are fighters OP? No. Would giving them a 23 strength break the system? Sort of, but not in any meaningful way.

Are you presenting a conclusion in anything you have said? No, not even a little.

>fighters
>best at fighting

Fighters suck shit at fighting. Indomitable does basically nothing against the dex and wisdom saves that shut them down immediately, and that's assuming they get a save. Monsters have mountains of hitpoints, enough attack to laugh at fullplate, and like half has "resistant to weapons".

Fighters are best at fighting so long as you ignore all the non-rogue classes.

Have you even played 5e?

>Indomitable does basically nothing against the dex and wisdom saves that shut them down immediately, and that's assuming they get a save.
This is just such an unbelievable shit job at lying that I couldn't help but giggle. This is like the guy saying a 5e wizard can fly and cast 3 fireballs while failing to mention that they would have to be level 7 and burn all of their spell slots doing it - not to mention that wizards are 1 arrow away from plummeting from the sky.

It's the fighter's way of being good at stuff outside combat. Max Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution? Okay, well, now you can also be smart or wise or charming.

Too bad mental stats mean almost nothing for non-casters, and even casters only need one.

>Strength or Dex means nothing compared to feats
>Mental stats mean nothing to fighters
>Fighters have shit saves
>Fighters suck at fighting
>Fighters can't use skills
>Rerolling saves doesn't make a difference
This thread is hilarious.

The 20 cap is part of the reason why a lot of games I've played die before level 8, I think. You main stat is going to be capped at level 4, if not by 8, with just about every character. And I think they've yet to add ANY feats in supplemental material

>The 20 cap is part of the reason why a lot of games I've played die before level 8, I think.
"Oh yeah, I was really enjoying your campaign, but since I already have a strength of 20 I don't really see why we should keep going"

>The feature that lets you reroll failed saves does nothing for saves you might fail

are you retarded

>assuming they get a save

Name even one no save spell that doesn't attack AC.

Magic Missile

OH SHIT DESTROYED!

fuck, you got me

why do people treat 5e feats like 3.pf feats
5e feats are the whole goddamn tree in one go, not some tax bullshit

Unfortunately anything you want to do out of combat as a Fighter or other martial, the casters can also do.

Well, yes, but if they have better ability scores they might be situationally better than the casters at them. What part of this is confusing to you?

Take some skills that the wizard doesn't have, then. Fill the unfilled role.

"Take other skills" or "pump your scores higher" isn't really an argument against utility imbalance when they can always take the same skills or scores as you. Even then, your solutions rely entirely upon rolling slightly better than the rest of the party on skill checks. They have means of circumventing checks entirely, or making checks in way the Fighter simply can't.

Because those are essentially class abilities.

Fighters don't suck in this edition. Go figure.

Which skills does the wizard unconditonally circumvent? Aside from tool proficiency/crafting, I guess.

There's a level of utility imbalance, but it's not "BMX Biker and Angel Summoner" levels where the caster invalidates the rest of the party out of combat.

>Thread is literally about how Fighters get more Ability Score increases compared to other classes
>"But they can always take the same scores as you!"
Ignoring an argument isn't an argument either, user.

>They have means of circumventing checks entirely, or making checks in ways the Fighter simply can't.
This part is true, but that's ALWAYS going to be true when it comes to literal fucking magic, and additionally, that magic is ALWAYS going to cost spell slots. The limitation of the wizard is that he has to do stuff with magic. Anything more in terms of limiting is necessarily going to have to require that the wizard be prevented from casting spells that do certain things, or that those spells be removed from the system entirely.

Because at level 20 you are meant to be overpowered gods. While the Wizard just wishes the BBEG away, the Rogue obliterates everything going twice per combat and being nigh undetectable and the Druid is permanently a Trex, you're standing there in peak physical and strong mental condition.

Much like not allowing the variant human I've never met someone who doesn't allow feats.

Also Sleep, IIRC.

>that magic is ALWAYS going to cost spell slots

Not with Ritual Magic.

fuck, it feels like ever since 3.x made casters fuckin god tier, people bawww whenever designers try to throw fighters a bone.

I remember the very first PF alpha, the level cap bonus (or maybe 19th lvl, w/e the point is it was really high) for fighters was dr/5 while wearing ONE type of armor of the player's choosing. while everyone agreed fighters could use some help, apparently at level 20 having dr/5 was somehow broken as all fuck, never mind the restrictions or the fucking fact at that point in the game massive damage and instakill spells were the kind of shit you'd most likely deal with.

fighters aren't even my favorite class, but part of that is how unwilling players and designers were to acknowledge that they should feel just as useful as other classes later levels

probably because we've become so used to feats being bullshit. also not all feats were tax-like, some were actually useful from the very beginning (some...)

It seems like your complaint here is "fighter gets something good" and I'm not entirely sure why you find that unacceptable.

That's true, I should have included that. Of course, certain spells don't have the "Ritual tag," so unless I'm missing something (I double-checked) they can't be cast as Rituals. Spells like Fly and Jump don't appear to have these, for example, so if your wizard has to make a leap of faith he might need a bit of help somehow or risk taking the plunge.

If there IS something I've missed that lets you cast those spells as rituals, then there's the added balancer of the fact that rituals, by their nature, take a long time to cast. So, even in a hypothetical scenario where a wizard CAN cast "Jump" as a ritual, he'd better Wish that there aren't any orcs chasing the party up to the gap or you're all gonna have a fight on your hands.

You could always give martials unique, untouchable abilities with little or no combat utility that allow them to solve problems in ways that do not rely on ability checks that anyone can make or item usage / environment manipulation that anyone else could also do. Make it cost resources if you want. Barbarians have an obvious resource in Rage, but that's about it, and even then it's not like every DM or even a majority is cool with a raging 20 Str Barbarian punching through a wooden wall without a check while they wouldn't bat an eye if a Wizard said he wanted to cast fireball (no concussive force) or polymorph into a golem and then punch it without a check.

Being good in combat (finally) isn't really an excuse for remaining slouches in the other areas of the game.

And just because I know someone's going to bring it up despite it already having been called out: no, shut up, "you need to be creative with your stats/skills/items as a fighter/rogue/barb/whatever" doesn't fly when every other class can be creative in the same way to the same effect (and then some if they use magic)

>You could always give martials unique, untouchable abilities with little or no combat utility that allow them to solve problems in ways that do not rely on ability checks that anyone can make or item usage / environment manipulation that anyone else could also do.
That sounds fine to me in an abstract sense, but really, what kind of noncombat abilities do you think the FIGHTER should receive? As far as I'm concerned, extra ability scores seems like a perfectly sensible way to do things, and the arguments that it is not are very circumstantial at best. That also goes for what you're claiming about fighters "remaining slouches" in noncombat situations.

>even then it's not like every DM or even a majority is cool with a raging 20 Str Barbarian punching through a wooden wall without a check while they wouldn't bat an eye if a Wizard said he wanted to cast fireball (no concussive force) or polymorph into a golem and then punch it without a check.
First off, I just checked fireball, and the spell description doesn't appear to mention a concussive force. Secondly, since you appear to be railing against hypothetical DMs and I'm pretty sure spell-shaping like that is restricted in RAW, this problem appears to be one you have with how the system COULD BE run, rather than how it SHOULD BE run, according to RAW. Saying "But the DM could ignore the rules!" really isn't an argument against the rules at all.

... Dude. Everyone uses feats. There's basically no reason not to.

>Fireball doesn't mention concussive force
Right, that's why I mentioned it. Why would puffing some hot air at a wooden wall blow it up? It wouldn't, yet I think you'll find the average table either thinks Fireball does this or plays it as such anyway. I think you'll also find that the fact that a caster has expended a resource to cast a spell tends to give them a free pass on other mechanics; if a barred door needs a DC 20 Strength check to break or has 40 HP and 20 DR, somehow casting this fireball blows it open anyway even though it could never do 40 damage and no one's making an Arcana check or anything to change the spell in a homeruled way.

We get into this argument a lot in D&D threads and /5eg/ and this "hypothetical DM" is pretty fucking real. There's a large number of posters here who are very much against mundane classes ever doing something "cool" with their bodies because that's "stupid anime bullshit" or "anything impressive needs to be magic". If that last line sounds ridiculous, yeah, they are.

>what kind of noncombat abilities do you think the FIGHTER should receive?
Great feats of physical strength, skill, speed, and/or endurance that are completely separate from stats. Your Fighter and Cleric might both have 20 Str and 16 Con, but this Cleric simply wouldn't be allowed to perform these techniques. They're ways of cheating past DMs who forget those lines in the PHB about not rolling for trivial checks, or checks in situations where you have time and no danger and repeated attempts can be made indefinitely, or that you can make checks to exceed certain parameters (like normal jumping distance). Since every class can do those, the martials need something that's just an "it works and you succeed" the way conventional spell usage goes. Examples to follow.

Rolled 4, 2, 2, 6, 2, 1, 1, 5, 4 = 27 (9d6)

>even though it could never do 40 damage
Fireball does 8d6 damage cast from a level 3 slot, user, so it possibly could. Just for fun, I'll roll it myself, as though I were casting it from a level 4 slot, just in case.
>20 DR
Could you elaborate on this, please? Checking the PHB index, the only "DR" in 5e is "Damage resistance," which halves damage of a certain type. In my experience, you don't get phrases like "20 DR" in this system. Could you be a little more clear here, or else explicitly specify that we're no longer talking about fifth edition?

Once again, those noncombat abilities do sound cool. However, I don't believe that including these abilities would do anything to solve the problem you're posing. The problem is that if you have a DM who "forgets lines in the PHB" or outright ignores rules, you have a DM for whom extra rules are not going to matter, because he is already ignoring them.
I'll await your examples with eagerness, because those sound cool and ripe for potential use as houserules, but I might not be ale to reply very quickly because it's 3AM and I should go to bed instead of squinting at the PHB index in the dark.

Examples:
Dashing quadruple their movement speed in a single turn can have some obvious out of combat usefulness. Running so fast as to skip over water or not trigger floor pressure plates. Hoisting half a ton for a short period or even throwing it a short distance. Striking a stone wall or old iron bars with enough force to shatter them. Taking a running leap and gaining 20 feet of vertical air.

Minor superheroics. Things that at least touch the limits of real world human capability (which are often surprisingly better than a maxed stat character's abilities in 5E) and ideally exceed them. The game's always been about being heroic, impressive, larger than life, and that shouldn't just come from the results of your deeds (you slew the dragon!) but also how you can go about doing that. It is obviously impressive when a wizard topples a castle tower with a single spell, even when that accomplishes nothing as far as killing creatures, but a fighter single-handedly taking out a fire giant doesn't really have the same panache (especially in older editions where the wizard could snap a spell to do it, too) and relies on cheesing or a level advantage that would let anyone else do it, too.

So give the classes a resource. Tie it to something they've already got, so there's choices, like with casters, whether they want to utilize this in a fight or out of it. Restrict some uses by class, or even statistics; striking a wall open might not be something you think jives with Rogues and is more the domain of Barbs and Fighters, but perhaps it's not so wrong that running on water is not strictly a Monk and Rogue thing, because you occasionally get very dextrous, lightly-armed Fighters and Barbarians in a way you tend not to find hulking Rogues (or maybe it's granted to these classes by default, and other martial classes can access it if they have the requisite stats). And again, you just don't let the fucking Cleric or Paladin or Wizard do them.

D&D was built on the exploits of literary heroes like Conan, Fafhrd, and John Carter, and those are Gygax's own words. The idea that those characters could accomplish what they did at the average DM's table without obscene luck of the roll is far-fetched. And those were stories where (as in old-ass basic D&D) magic was quite rare, wizards were very weak, and you mostly encountered spellcasters as either evil adversaries or distant patrons who didn't accompany you. D&D now puts two or three of the fuckers in your party, and even way back when, we see that the most enduring characters of Gygax's old basement games are FUCKING CASTERS! We all know Bigby and Mordenkainen and Melf, but when was the last time Zigby or Robilar gets brought up? And Robilar was a total badass, because OG D&D just threw a fucking fiefdom into your lap when you hit Fighter 10. That wasn't something just merely attainable by everyone with roleplay, it was just given to you, because any Fighter who gets that high was considered, clearly, a legendary shitstomper who people wanted to be near and listen to. But the guy still had to rely on literal backpacks full of magic trinkets to do all of this, in a way that 5E tries not to support with its quasi-embargo on magic goodies.

Now, that's a bit silly to do these days, especially with such a focus on realistic narrative and roleplaying to get whatever you like, but it's just another example of how niches were more well-defined in older editions because the rules were more groggy and restrictive. You didn't have classes encroaching on each others' "territory", and while that might kill some concepts, we can surely find a nice middle ground where you can play all sorts of interesting characters with various class combinations while also carving out a nice slice of the "exploration" and "social" pies for the pure martials, instead of telling them to be content with their combat cake (which they are sharing with everyone else).

I'm kind of drawing from every edition here, so don't take the actual numerical examples as absolutes, they're for illustration's sake. 5E doesn't get into things like toughness, hardness, item health, saves, or any of that, as part of its quest to simplify rules. That's probably a good thing, but it also seems to give a lot of people the impression that stuff just shouldn't be possible as a result.
>well, there's no rules for chopping through a door, but there are rules for trying to force it open, so you're stuck making a check buddy
Everything basically comes down to checks, which I hope I've made the point is dumb and additionally doesn't really differentiate classes a lot, since the variance in a skill (proficiency aside, all of which you can get through backgrounds) is, generally, 5 at most. Having Expertise is enough to eclipse that eventually, and you get hilarity where the 12 Strength Bard (he's an archer, OK) has an easier time kicking open a door than Hulk the Barbarian, reliably.

Interestingly, though, we can look at the spell description for Wall of Stone and see that stone has a 15 HP per inch of thickness (not a cubic inch, an inch of thickness in a 5' panel) and extrapolate that your average martial with two attacks and maybe a big hammer should be pounding his way through a foot of mountain or castle wall every two minutes, easy. But that's absurd, and I don't know of any rule stickler DMs who'd allow everyone with a sword to turn into a mundane mining machine and bypass half the dungeon just by chiseling in overdrive. i'm going to sleep too
good night user

>You could always give martials unique, untouchable abilities with little or no combat utility that allow them to solve problems

Yeah, like maybe give fighters some sort of ability that let's them gauge the fighting capabilities of others in comparison to their own.

>People thinking fighter is bad in 5e
>People that must not have played 5e
>People that suck at theorycrafting too

Fighters do more damage than any other class in 5e, and its actually relevant in that system since the only save or die is actually a monk ability, not a spell.

>Abilities per day: The Game

I pass.

The mediocrity of martials is a problem even when their damage dealing is the best. There's just no over the top heroics to be had outside of how hard and how often you hit things.

It would take zero effort to import some form of action dice, or just tell your players to do over-the-top heroic shit and you won't interfere.

Like, less effort than it takes to type this out and solve the capcha.

Sleep would require to be at insane levels to even fill a fighter hit points. And magic missile does 3d4 damages.

Two session ago my group was charged by a Minotaur, horns first and all that jazz. Thanks to my 20 Str I grabbed it by the horns and suplexed it. I also used the drow rogue as a projectile, twice.

>Maul and War Hammer do subdual while a shod staff does lethal

Ahahahaha fuck your system.

They're still auto-hit, no-save spells. Not necessarily good at high levels, but the point was that they exist.

i re-read this post 9 times before i realized you didnt actually write "diet dr. pepsi"

which i now really really want

so thanks for that

faggot

>a recording of two separate DNA strands that haven't met and fertilized yet is "you"
Even by both XKCD and transhumanist standards that's a disingenuous equivocation. Hell, even the pope doesn't think that.

You talk about martials being mediocre as if 5E Casters had the spell list and slots of 3.5 and like concentration isnt a fucking massive system wide limitation. They actually function much like they did in AD&D again where (If you knew what you werre doing) they can be most helpful as utility casters and helping keep the martials in a fight so they can kill things

>people are complaining about fighters not being useful out of combat, or interesting in it
>BUT THEY'VE GOT THE BIGGEST COMBAT NUMBERS, GUYS!

The Cleric could have done that.
A Moon Druid shapeshifted into a bear or something could have done it, too.
A Warlock who pumped Strength because he wants to hit things hard could have done that.
Even a Wizard who realized that having 20 Int doesn't do anything but increase his DCs and let him memorize five more spells (not slots, spells) per day and grabbed some Strength instead could have done that.
And unless your DM was saying this thing was ONLY possible because you have 20 Strength, and this was a simple Strength check like most games, literally anyone in the party could have done it if they simply rolled a bit higher than you. The 14 Str Rogue only needs to beat your roll by 3, which isn't exactly a huge statistical unless the DC is higher than 20, and if it is, the likelihood of you pulling this off isn't great to begin with.

>Literally no per-day abilities in the game
There are a lot of things you can complain about, but that isn't one of them

People are complaining that they are not useful *in* combat, and that they have the worst utility.

Those are both memes by lonely Virginia with their systemfu

>didnt know this
>reads old DnD book
>monks had to find and kill four other monks, druids had to replace one of the arch druids
>assassins were a subclass of rogues and had to engage in wars with other assassins

wow

this game sounds amazing.

Dr. Pepsi is shit, Coca Pibb is the true patrician's beverage.

MOAR FEATS

Fighters are supposed to be taking a few feats instead of every ASI, mong.

Because dnd is a dungeon crawler and so skills largely don't matter

Kind of like wizards in D&D, huh?

In the DMG, weapons, ships, and other large objects are given a minimum threshold of damage that you have to bypass with an attack.

Otherwise they just ignore it. I think it's to prevent people from just grinding through a stone wall with a dagger.

>Hating on 5e
>Trying to say Martial/Caster disparity is a good thing
>Idiotic image with an unfunny joke
>One line paragraphs making the entire post

Hi, Virt.

Good at fighting is all you need in dnd

No. Only those with 20 STR could do this, otherwise you could have the barbarian out-knowledging the wizard in wizard studies in magic because he rolled a 16 while the wizard rolled a 9.