To learn a new spell, a wizard must first encounter and 'capture' it

Isn't this how D&D wizards are intended to work anyways? Learn spells by taking them from the spell books of defeated foes or scrolls found in ancient tombs?

Wasn't this how Blue Mages work in FF5? I'd make em a bit more defensive if I were you.

Yep. Or at least that's how it worked until 2e threw sorcerers into the mix, and then everything went to hell.

Just play a balanced system

Balancing a powerful ability with meta inconveniences is fun for no one and bad design.

It doesn't make the thing balanced, it just makes it more obnoxious and unfun to use.

Thats how Blue Mages always were in all FF games

The fuck?

So mages get cool awesome super powers and the martials are still relegated to "hit stuff with stick?"

The fuck's the point of that shit nigga?

I thought Sorc's were a 3e thing.

I never really understood the point of having a wizard who can cast spells without having to memorize them.

That's how wizards were supposed to work in early D&D though.

You gained spells through finding scrolls and spellbooks, you could only use a spell that you managed to learn, and you (as the GM) were able to set the pace by determining which spells they were able to find.

>fight a giant snake
>learn constriction debuff + the ability to poison enemies with your blade

>fight a skeleton
>learn the art of only taking half damage from piercing weapons

>fight an ogre
>learn how to rip out part of the battle environment and use it as an improvised weapon for 2x damage

>fight a ghost
>learn how to use your blade to cause level drain

Seems pretty cool to me.

user was incorrect; it was 3E where sorcerers were introduced.

The idea behind a sorcerer was that while a wizard would have a big library of spells, the sorcerer would have a small handful focused on a specific area.

It didn't quite work out that way due to 3.5, but the idea of a caster that does nothing but fire spells for example could have a place.

Okay man, you've convinced me.

That actually sounds pretty cool.

Though I have to wonder, why is this not considered magic?

I mean, magically taking half damage from piercing damage and magically learning how to drain levels and shit sounds no different than learning spells.

He obviously isn't, this is one of those thought experiments. Its like those chess problems: you are never going to encounter them in a real game of chess.

I'd even go as far as to say that OP's hobby is to post on Veeky Forums, he does not play tabletop games at all.

It's sort of magic? You're just a badass who fucking defies physics. You're like herucles, diverting an entire river or Beowulf holding your breath for hours out of faith in god. You don't give a fuck because you're a badass.

I understand, it's just, why not just call them spells and magic?

Because that kills it. Nobody wants to be associated with those gay ass mages.

That's kind of how Blue Mages work in Final Fantasy.
If you get hit with something you can learn, and you're alive at the end of the fight, you learn the technique.

That includes spells like Aero, Flare, and Doom, but also stuff like Goblin Punch, Mighty Guard, 1000 Needles, and Missile.

Everyone should just know magic. Melee types know internal magic. Traditional mages know external magic. Balance solved.

FFV was the first game to include blue mages, and debatably still the best game to implement them

Because wizards physically can't do that. There is a limitation in place that makes it physically impossible for magic users to learn these things. Like magic of he mind and magic of the body.

Because that's not what it is?

what if I don't want to use magic at all
if I wanted to use magic I would never have even attempted to play a Fighter in the first place

Yet you want to gain not!Magic and not!Spells from magical creatures...yet somehow that isn't magical or spells?

It just sounds like martialfags wanting their cake and eating it too again.

That's the thing though, that's still magic and spells.

The word "mage" is used in the class's name. You're still a mage, it's just that your power is based off of surviving hits rather than simply learning them through scrolls and spellbooks.

Says who?

With enough magic and prep, a mage could survive just as much damage as a martial of equal level.

You don't want to use magic yet you want to learn not!Magic at the same time.

Why not just say "I want to play a martial who gets cool magic too" and just be honest with yourself.

>It just sounds like martialfags wanting their cake and eating it too again.
Well they sure do enough of THAT

user who posted the examples of a fighter learning attacks here.

>Though I have to wonder, why is this not considered magic?
If you really, really, really need to justify why this guy can only hit things with a stick but that other guy can tear holes in reality, then how about this:

>poison blade: it's literally a blade with poison on it

>half damage from piercing weapons: by fighting the skellies you learn where all the bones are aligned and are able to move your body to turn vital blows into mere flesh wounds

>level drain: slicing tendons and shit

Because realistically, anyone with magic is gonna trump anyone without it. Only low ranking foot soldiers and guards could get away without knowing some basic magic of some kind.

If you're going to be that much of a pain, give casters all the 'actives' and martials all the passives.

You fought enough snakes that your sword is poison.
You fought enough vampires you get x/day 'use CON as CHA.'
You farmed enough bear asses you get Bare Armor, +1 to AC.

While wizards get the spells.
Shoot missiles.
Whip up hurricanes.
Punch things, but in a way that if they're the same level as you they take eight times the normal damage.

>That's the thing though, that's still magic and spells.

a spell typically implies some kind of incantation and/or ritual. and "magic" is basically meaningless so who cares.

As I said before, I'm not saying that it's a bad thing or whatever, in fact, I think that it's really interesting and could work if there was a credible system behind it.

I'm just trying to understand the logic of having obviously magical feats and abilities granted to them yet somehow having them be not!magic.

I mean, D&D 5e at least acknowledges shit like the 4 element monks and EK taking the bulk of their abilities from spells, why pretend to be mundane when it's obvious that that you're using a form of magical power to achieve an extraordinary effect.

It just feels dishonest.

>all magic is spells
How boring.

You're stealing magical effects from magical creatures and spending MP to activate said spells that you stole from said creature.

How is that not some form of spell?

Guys, I'm beginning to think we're in the presence of the FUCKING RIDDLES poster.

this is why you just control what spells the wizard fnds in the form of books and scrolls. if 3.pf is still too much, adopt the old rule that wizards only gained free spells on level up if they got a new spell level, and only 1 spell of that level so the ability to cast them wasnt wasted.

>Activating abilities like shooting poison from your eyes and taking half damage from Piercing weapons from a resource aren't spells.

>Everything that doesn't work exactly the same as it does in reality is magic or spells

>Skill that breaks reality and drains MP isn't magical or a spell.

No seriously, why is it so hard to accept this?

>How is that not some form of spell?

i just explained that. the dictionary definition of a spell is "A form of words used as a magical charm or incantation", "a spoken word or form of words held to have magic power", "A word or formula believed to have magic power", "a verbal formula considered as having magical force" - you get the picture. it's not just any special power.

regardless, D&D doesn't treat all magical abilities as spells, so it's a moot point.

i don't know where you got the idea of spending MP from, maybe you have your own idea about what is being discussed.

I could see it for sorcs in DnD terms.

there's this too, I had actually plotted in my head that in a DnD game I might run that, past third level, spells become exponentially difficult to find and learn, to where the greatest casters who weren't outright deities or demi-deities only knew maybe one spell from the seventh to ninth levels.

With classes like Warlocks and Clerics, it would be a case of their patrons requiring them to do increasingly difficult and out-of-the-way tasks before being granted a new spell.

You're the only one who's bringing up magic points, and the abilities being discussed might break reality from our perspective, but be entirely consistent with the reality of the setting in question. Faggot.

>drains MP
What are you on about? You're the only person even mentioning this.

That sounds good, but now you're punishing the rest of the group who dont give a shit if Fred gets another spell or not. In the same way that groups dont go on quests to get gear for fighters, groups wont want to go on quests to get spells for the wizzy.
Unless your group is fine with this, in which case have at it.

Listen, we can get hung up on definitions and MP/X per day and all that shit until the cows come home but that's really besides the point.

The point I was trying to make is, why pretend that the magical effect you gain isn't magical in nature?

It just feels dishonest and a distracting nitpick in general, like those martialfags who come up with all those homebrew rules where you can break reality from flexing your butt cheeks or some stupid shit like that.

That's generally why spells are included in the loot that you gain from a dungeon.

Even IN D&D not everything that is "magical" is literally magic. (Su) and (Ex) effects are stupidly common, and then there are things that are flat-out impossible that aren't even given those tags. A dragon's flight isn't magical or even (Ex)traordinary, it's just a thing it can do.

>groups dont go on quests to get gear for fighters

...My group always went on quests to get me cool gear.

>A dragon's flight isn't magical or even (Ex)traordinary, it's just a thing it can do.

It has wings though.

No turbines, however.

As we all know any object of any size can fly just by dint of having wings of any description taped to it.

(Su)pernatural abilities are generally treated as spell-like abilities that come naturally to certain races (that are, in themselves, magical in some way, shape, or form) and (Ex)traordinary abilities operate on abilities that are supposed to "break physics" but more often than not are only shit that's marginally better off than what's given to your class as a martial.

It can when it has a fly speed.

>Though I have to wonder, why is this not considered magic?

Because it doesn't involve being a guy in robes who waves their hands and chanting while bright lights flash around and energy beams go this way and that.

And for the same reason, having a guy who waves their hands and chanting while bright lights flash around and energy beams go this way and that is magic even when you use terms like "nanomachines" and "string theory".

It's all certainly fantastic, though.

i agree it's a distracting nitpick. something being "magical" has very little meaning. i don't care if you call it magical, but i don't know why you care if they don't call it magical because it's the same either way. the label doesn't materially change anything. it's basically a placeholder for an explanation that some people take too seriously.

Because honestly, I'm sick of martialfags taking magical abilities and trying to claim that they're still non-magical.

They're the biggest fucking babies when it comes to that shit and it's like this, all the time.

That or they make up rules that break the game and claim that it's just "evening up the playing field."

Not all mages cast spells by waving their hands and chanting though.

Sorcerers and Bards basically just activate their spells on the fly, Druids and Clerics get their powers from their faith/beliefs, Warlocks get their powers from their patrons, and then there are the magic variants of the martial classes that cast spells as well.

If you want to gain supernatural power then go ahead, just don't pretend that you're still somehow non-magical while punching through solid brick walls and shouting so hard that you rupture someone's ear drums.

...

Oh look

It's this thread again

You don't fix spellcasters by making the rest of the party bend over backwards for them. Creating a special snowflake mechanic to 'justify' their powerlevel just places the spotlight more on them and even less on the martials and skillmonkeys. This is the exact opposite of fixing them, you complete retard.

If you want to make a mechanic like that, you need to design the game around it, and make sure everybody is playing a wizard, and 3.X would be awful for it anyway. Some kind of cardgame based RPG would work better, but none come to mind.

You don't see mages coming up with threads dedicated to making martials shittier than they already are but martialfags are always happy to come with homebrews that make playing a mage as tedious as possible or just say "I'm going to throw out everything and slap Pathfinder onto my shitty custom system."

Yet I'm salty for calling you out on your bullshit?

>Because honestly, I'm sick of martialfags taking magical abilities and trying to claim that they're still non-magical.

you didn't answer why you're taking it so seriously, you're just repeating that you do. you're getting just as worked up as them over the usage of an extremely vague word for a fictional concept that doesn't mean much by itself anyway.

You mean like Pokemon?

>calling you out on your bullshit?
>only one person can disagree with me
>only one person can make threads about martials in D&D
Have you tried not playing D&D?

Because it's dishonest to say "martials don't need magic to keep up with magefags" and then immediately go "here's an awesome homebrew power I came up with, I can do an AoE not!Fireball by rubbing by hands together really fast and shit and I consume grit each time I use it, which is totally different from spell slots because it's more MANLY!"

Just call it magic, move on, and stop trying to act like you're clever for coming up with not!Magic for your Fighter.

>If you want to make a mechanic like that, you need to design the game around it, and make sure everybody is playing a wizard, and 3.X would be awful for it anyway.
Good thing nobody mentioned 3.x.

This isn't even about D&D man.

This about martialfags, once again, trying to have their cake and eat it to.

If they just admitted to using magic then we could've moved on but nope, yet another martial vs. mage thread where the bulk of the argument is "we want to be magical without actually casting spells like sissies."

>wild fireballs and walls of force roaming the countryside
>Corner stores have scrolls you can put these spells on for 2-4 gold

I think the problem is that you're being autistic about semantics

OP just asked for your opinion on his idea, I doubt he was trying to victimize you personally.

Sounds like RE:Monster, except with less eating.

Hello pot, meet kettle.

>OP just asked for your opinion on his idea, I doubt he was trying to victimize you personally.

Meanwhile in >Would this be a good way to balance spellcasters?

And then the thread went to shit once martialfags went "buh it not magicks, magicks is gay, hurr durr."

Forgive me for assuming that an OP retarded enough to consider this an idea worth posting, and specifically mentioning 'balancing spellcasters' would obviously be referring to 3.X.

It seemed to be an acceptable leap of logic.

>Meanwhile in (OP)

Yes, that was him asking for your opinion. He wasn't trying to hurt your feelings.

>And then the thread went to shit once martialfags went "buh it not magicks, magicks is gay, hurr durr."

I think the thread went to shit for an entirely different reason.

Never played. I was basing it on Gau from FF6.

What if fighters could attune to any magical item by challenging the spirit inside it to a straight up fight and winning?

True, so I'd need to find a balance. Plus, if PCs are on some quest that threatens creation, there is no reason for Deities and such patrons to hold back on the good stuff.

Though on that note, I've always wanted to see how a campaign would go where PCs are basically dealing with an insanely serious threat and the Gods have temporarily boosted and geared them up to epic levels just to stand a chance. (you know, sort of the opposite of the party trying to stop a world ending threat and even the paladin's temple quartermaster is still charging the group double price for a basic gear)

Again, that's kinda how that shit worked in older versions of D&D.

Fighting Man was the only class in the game who could wield magical arms/armors.

I like it also why not make wizards burn his life when casting magic

So everytime you cast a spell you burn some of your lifespam and more powerfull the spell more lifespan you burn, and because of that all wizards are old mans and that why there are liches and why are so dangerous, they drain the life of the World to use magic

And on the same line magic items need life to be active so they can take from his bearer or his victim ... so more you kill with your sword, it become better and thirsty for life becomes ultil goes full BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

Nah bro, every magic item has a spirit inside it (though the strength varies of course).
The Fighter either calls the spirit out or enters the item world to engage it in combat. He wins, he can use the item no matter what restrictions are on it.
Also, he could use combat in place of diplomacy by invoking the anime convention of making friends by getting into a fight with them.

Okay, now you're just being silly.

CHA is a dump stat for fighters.

I would go Wizards sacrifice things of emotional importance to them to fuel powerful spells and the memory of that thing is erased from their mind.
You have a teddy bear since you were a kid, it was given to you by your favorite grandpa, you have so many memories with that bear and you don't know where you would be without that thing since it tethered you down when times got tough. You sacrifice the teddy bear, the spell uses all of those emotional connections and memories of teddy as fuel, it results in a powerful spell and leaves you with a lingering sense of loss but you've learned to ignore such things now as the ashes of whatever you burned blow out of your hand.
Someone else takes that bear that means so much to you burns it, they might be able to power a first level spell due to the platonic ideal of childhood it represents and they don't suffer any loss other than some innocence from childhood.
That's why Wizards have no sense of right or wrong, they give up all that tethers them to this world for power.

And that's why he uses combat to make friends with people.

>Fighting Man was the only class in the game who could wield magical arms/armors.
Clerics got all magic armour and non-edged magic weapons.

Yer muh darkie, you know that?

I like it

>end-wizard's staff has a charm of beginning wizard on it

>the puppet of himself on the last staff

Because that makes wizards the focus of attention, and since the social outcasts that play wizards shy away from most kind of attention that would make them uncomfortable.

Building on that, Blood Magic is used because blood has a very important value as a symbol in most if not all cultures. It's most often used by evil wizards because the most powerful blood is the life blood, the blood from when someone bleeds out, and you can't really do that to yourself.
Combine life blood with sacrificing people you have an emotional connection to and you could fuel epic level spells.
There is a 'good' kind of sacrificial magic though, one capable of generating miracles. It is achieved when the caster sacrifices themselves and their essence to fuel a single spell.

The biggest cure for the caster/martial shitflinging is simple. Everybody needs to chill.

>Who is two of the greatest wizards of all time
Merlin and Gandalf. These fuckers was gods in lands made of cardboard. What did they do? Chill the fuck out. You should always be the smartest guy in the room, if you need to waste a spellslot fighting a normal threat then you're not.

Martials, bring that ass here boi. You lot, remember low level wizard? The third rate hack of a magician who's biggest form of support was knowledge checks? Those low levels was the tax he paid to get where he is now. Sure he will act like an asshole once in while but remember, he was once just a class that was 3 spellslots away from being a fucking peasant

...

>Sorcerers and Bards basically just activate their spells on the fly

orcerers have to wave their hands and Bards literally sing/chant/recite poetry.

>>Druids and Clerics get their powers from their faith/beliefs, Warlocks get their powers from their patrons...

Then raise their holy symbol/staff into the air and speak the incantations that invoke supernatural power.

>>then there are the magic variants of the martial classes that cast spells as well.

That have to keep hands free so they can make the gestures necessary while they recite Wizard spells in order to hurl fireballs and sparkly illusions.

But a Rogue's ability to detect shit isn't treated as "magic" in the same way a Warlock casting Darkvision spell is. A Monk's ability to bypass damage as if their fists were magic isn't treated the same as casting Magic Weapon. A Barbarian channeling the fury of their ancestors isn't treated the same as casting "Enhance Ability".

All fantastic, but nobody is going to call the people wielding these powers "magicians" or "spellcasters" or "mages" in the same sense they would a Druid or Sorcerer, or even an Eldritch Knight.

And the "non-magical" version of the Ranger still features the ability to heal with poultices and call forth creatures from the wild without having to cast Cure Wounds or Summon nature's Ally.

You can give characters fantastic and even supertnatural abilities without making them mages/priests or warriors with some mage/priest training.

Because "magic" has certain trappings that generally imply that what is being done is beyond the actual scope and capabilities of the person wielding it and has to be "invoked" by appealing to their relationship with higher powers. Martial characters in plenty of works of fiction that aren't magical are able to do things that would be physically impossible in our world because they're that good at that thing.