Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion: Garithos did nothing wrong edition

D&D 5e conversion: goo DOT gl SLASH cmCypo

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m.youtube.com/watch?v=TknF4UODXCc
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How was the plaguelands called before the . . . plague ?

I'm sure it was something nice. It was basically large swaths of Lordaeronian farmland.

it was just part of Lordaeron. I'd say Northeron, but that was eventually retconned into the Hinterlands

Plaugelands? You mean the party lands?

Kel'thuzad pls

Now I will start my master thesis on why the Grand Marshal Othmar Garithos was right all along.

When we first meet Garithos, a few rude comments made by him make one thing about him abundantly clear, he's a racist, who hates elves.
But how does he express this hatred for the elf race?
He gives Prince Kael'Thas and his elven people, who have no home to go back to, a simple non-combat mission of repairing observatories, where their lives are extremely unlikely to be at risk.
He's racist, sure, but he doesn't just want them to die pointlessly like some cold hearted monster, he just doesn't want to have to look at them while he battles the scourge on the front lines, he's even showing them a small amount of kindness here by leaving them out of danger.
In response, he gets a snappy comment from Kael'Thas about how his people are warriors and deserve to be allowed to fight on the front lines.
Later Kael'Thas has no boats, and gets a few from the naga, there's nothing wrong with this, he needed those boats to complete the mission given to him by Garithos.
Garithos scolds him though, because he doesn't trust the naga, but rather than actually punish him, simply tells him not to trust the naga.
Fast forward to next mission, Garithos pulls the dwarves, and humans from Kael'Thas' army to the front lines to assist him, leaving the job of defeating an undead strikeforce advancing upon Dalaran to Kael'Thas.
The blood elf prince, who only one mission ago called his people warriors, eager to fight on the front lines goes back on his own words, and asks if Lord Garithos intends his people to fight the undead with nothing but "sticks and harsh language".
This is the point at which people theorize that Garithos had this grand off-screen scheme to destroy the elves once and for all, involving letting the undead kill them all, and then claiming them to be casualties of the war, well, I'll explain intermittently why this is preposterous.

(1 of 2)

Continued from Kael'Thas loses a few bases to the undead, who are far more enormous a force than he'd anticipated, and winds up completely surrounded.
He accepts help from the naga once again, knowing he'll be damning his people to Garithos' wrath if he ever finds out.
He manages to push back the undead strike force, and right as he's managing to do this, an army arrives.
It's Garithos himself, and an entire legion of knights, riding over the hill to rescue the elves! They witness naga fleeing from the scene, and Kael'Thas, and the remainder of his race are put into the dungeons of dalaran to await their executions for colluding with the naga.
So hold on, if Garithos truly wanted the blood elves dead, had the unquestioning loyalty of his own men, and the man-power to force the elves into the dungeons of dalaran with little to no fighting whatsoever, why would he have needed this absurd 'Let the undead destory the observatories I obviously care about, and possibly re-take complete control of Dalaran'? Because he didn't plan that, and that plan makes no sense.
If he wanted the elves dead, he could have had their heads from the second they showed up, but he's demonstrated nothing to this point but mercy and fairness to them.

(1.5 of 2)

Continued from The naga at this point have manipulated the blood elves right into their hands.
Lady Vashj has forced Kael'Thas into an offer he can't refuse, either join her, and serve the BURNING LEGION ( The same people that destroyed their ancestral homeland and brought them nearly to exctinction), or give his people up to certain death at the hands of Garithos.
I'm not really saying that Kael'Thas is entirely at fault for accepting the help of the nagas in such a hard time as the attack from the undead that risked wiping out his forces, but hey, maybe if he had listened to Lord Garithos saying that they couldn't be trusted, he could have wound up not being forced to serve a rogue demon, which ultimately ended up costing him and his people their lives anyways in the events of WoW. Now, the secret mission, where he has his own men wear TNT and run into a portal to blow themselves up to disable it.
Can we agree this is completely absurd?
This mission is probably not intended to be taken as canon, especially since the mission being canon would imply that Chen Stormstout traveled to Outland with Vashj and Kael'Thas to help them fight off Maiev shortly later.

(1.75 of 2)

Continued from After this, Garithos falls off the game's radar for a long time, at which point he springs up again in the undead campaign, where he trusts not only an elf, but an undead, because he has no other choice to retake his homeland.
Once again showing that he's not some kind of uncompromising brainless oaf, simply a man with a strong distaste towards a particular race.
He appears for a short time to be racist against dwarves aswell, as he comments on the dwarves who got lost in the woods:
-- "Those brainless dwarves are almost more trouble than they're worth!"
It should be noted that the future of humanity was on the line here, and the Ironforge dwarves who came to help did not appear to simply be 'lost in the woods', look at the map 'a new power in lordaeron', and you will see that the dwarves had literally pitched tents in the woods.
It's no wonder Garithos scolds them saying:
-- "There's a war on and you louts are off having a picnic!"
To which he gets a sarcastic:
-- "Yes garithos, right away Garithos"
And then a snappy comment after he leaves.
Shortly afterwards, he dies to Sylvanas and Varimathras.
Crushed in the gears of a war between 3 factions far more powerful than his small army of humans, the scourge, the forsaken, and the burning legion.

Therefore we can conclude that not only Garithos was correct in not trusting the naga but he was also correct of not trusting the elves which means the he did nothing wrong.

(2 of 2)

well spoken sir

>he's a racist

this term gets thrown around way too much in fantasy (in real life too). being "racist" in such a setting would be so normal and useful that there is no point for having a boogeyman evil label for it

its like if someone in real life said they didnt like spiders and then you point and yell racist at them. its unnecessary

also in real life literally everyone has "racist" ideas in literally every interaction with other people, its not only normal but its necessary. the label was supposed to be reserved for the particularly heinous situations but then liberals came along and diluted its meaning to "you have a different opinion than me". also dont tell liberals that the literal definition of bigot is someone who hates someone else because of their opinions. their head would explode

I don't hate Garithos because he was racist against other species. I hate him because he was a awful military commander. Had he just given his elven and Dwarven allies the support they needed Quel'thalas would still be part of the Alliance, Kael'thas wouldn't have gone crazy, the Scarlet Crusade wouldn't exist, and Lordaeron might still be in Alliance hands.

But no, let's piss off a large chunk of our forces cause they have pointy ears and try to kill them when they improvise solutions.

b-but muh family

Actually, it is more like traditional racism. mostly because traditional racism would almost certainly not exist in a fantasy setting, because the differences between races within one species is so much less than the differences between species.

Also I no longer believe the Warcraft movie has any chance of being good if Duncan knows so little about the setting that he believes that there are multiple races within the high elves

>Multiple elf races

What? Could you elaborate?

In the tweet in the image in the post I linked to

Duncan says one elf is asian and that there are multiple races within high elves

Which is fucking retarded, as high elves breed slowly and live in a small area all in the same nation. There could not logically be more than one "race" amongst the high elves

Jeez, he could have just said something like "no that Elf is an Elf" but he had to double down.

High Elves are shit anyway though. They just sit on their butts and complain about stuff while the Blood Elves actually try to save their homeland and species.

He has to agree with the narrative. He literally shit talked Tolkien the other day.

Why is this man directing the Tolkein love-letter that is Warcraft then?

Because no one else wanted to.
Game movies are well known failures.

>pointing out that he isn't Tolkien is shit talking Tolkien

...

...

Sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy isn't it?

Video Game movies are known failures, so only bad directors work on video game movies, which makes them failures

except this director has a very good movie under his title. moon

it just turned out he was a cuck faggot sjw nigger lover

...

No problem with that, people can ascribe to different philosophies, and the most damage he can do in general is just being an annoying shit

Until he directs a fantasy movie, with fantasy staples which abides by standard Tolkein-esque fantasy rules, and tries to shoehorn philosophies which simply do not logically fit within the setting in to pat his own ego

where the fuck is this conversion

oh you mean like this?

>memeing on someone who asks dumb rhetorical questions makes you an SJW

you sound like youre in denial by redd...i mean obviously Veeky Forums oldfag friend

>hes not a good director!
>he is
>it doesnt matter!

>he doesnt put sjw identify politics in his movie!
>he does
>who cares!?!

just fucking go away you idiot

how the fuck is that identity politics? Someone called out a casting choice and he mocked them

take your nigger loving reddit shit somewhere else duncan

also how the fuck was that "mocking him"? frantically trying to defend your forced diversity by making up bullshit that isnt true is some sort of sick burn in your delusional mind?

No one called out a casting choice, someone made an observation and he responded by proving himself to be a complete moron.

This doesn't even make sense. You need to replay the Warcraft 3 campaign again. Garithos sent Kael'Thas on a fool's errand so he could have a public reason to exterminate the elves. Elves had been considered an integral part of the alliance in the fight against the burning legion. Garithos destroyed the human resistance to the undead and burning legion by infighting with the elves. He wasted valuable time and assets attacking HIS own alliance while the scourge raped and pillaged humanity. Garithos was fucking retarded. He did everything wrong. Watching him die was hilarious.

Intending to slaughter entire presence of a species in an area including non-combatants under false pretenses seems pretty heinous to me.

In any case I want this garithos meme to die. You may think it's funny, but it attracts legitimate retards and people who are fucked to the head.

Yeah, this thread has been cancer and I blame ops bait.

So to change the discussion, do you think there's any chance whatsoever of the High Elves and Blood Elves reconciling? Sees every time they might get close one side or the other shoots themselves in the foot.

In the Shadow of the Sun suggests that they'll never reconcile. Both groups feel deeply betrayed by the other

Yeah, though they were getting along fairly well in Dalaran up until the whole purge thing Jaina did. Plus the whole reason they split in the first place (fel energy) is no longer an issue with the Light based Sunwell.

I agree with Lor'themar in that story though, the Blood Elves have done some nasty things, but it's because of those things that Quel'thalas still exists.

Can't help it when my voice makes all the ladies wet

No, seriously, if that's your bar for shit-talking Tolkien, you have literally never seen anyone else shit-talking Tolkien.
Compared to the insane, incoherent butthurt of, say, 'Epic Pooh', pointing out that nobody working for Blizzard in the 90s was a veteran of the Somme is perfectly fucking reasonable.

Are you suggesting that being old, white and veteran of a great war is somehow insulting?

Precisely, both sides are justified in their beliefs.

The high elves feel betrayed by the blood elves because the blood elves fell to what was effectively demon worship in an effort to slake their thirst for magic

The blood elves feel betrayed by the high elves because the high elves sat around moping about how they were a dying race instead of getting off their sorry asses and doing something about it, and then had the gall to act as if the blood elves had done the wrong thing by saving them

>Blizzard is in talks with the Nostralius guys

If we actually get a legacy server out of this how would you want it to work? Old content but with the modern ui and talent stuff? Or a straight port?

what support.
He told kael to engage the undead in dalaran while he broke through on another flank.

I want it to not happen because they already barely support the base game without diverting resources to maintain 11 year old code and content

He sent him on a suicide mission with no supplies or means to actually do the mission, then got butthurt when Kael teamed up with the Naga to get it done.

The Naga hadn't even been fighting the Alliance forces either, it's not like he was working with an enemy.

Yeah but if they just take all the stuff Nostralius did most of the work will be done for them.

if they 1:1 copy over Nost and let the Nost guys maintain it with no or little help, then I'm ok with it. If we lose a raid tier to pander to nostalgiafags I'll be annoyed

Based on how WoD went I'd say their dev team is pretty fucked regardless.

>He literally shit talked Tolkien the other day
BURN HIM

the naga were actively attacking alliance forces. The paladin they captured for example. All KT had to do was sit on his island with his thumb up his ass.

>All KT had to do was sit on his island with his thumb up his ass.
and all Malfurion had to do at Hyjal was blow up the undead base with land mines and then surround it with ancients

The Hyjal raid would have been 10x better if you had to navigate Malfurions giant mine field at one point.

Could the burning legion defeat Earth?

unless the nuclear armed countries blow everything up, probably

Didn't WoD only have vestigial team due to Titan still not having been scrapped back then?

titan got scrapped a while back
Jay wilson got the assignment as the lead midway during development and they gutted everything

that was Wrath, Azjol-Neurb was cut from development because of people getting shifted around between dev teams

WoD is where all the Titan folks got spun back up on WoW. All the former Titan devs went straight into Legion development. You can't just throw bodies at a project that's already in the process of implementation and expect progress unless your a shit-tier manager who's chasing stats on Powerpoint slides, with a complete misunderstanding of how the stuff under you works (totally don't have personal experience with this).

The last thread was a Garrosh did nutin' wrong thread. Of course we'd experience the opposite next thread.

>Blizzard is in talks with the Nostralius guys
>If we actually get a legacy server out of this how would you want it to work? Old content but with the modern ui and talent stuff? Or a straight port?

>Implying this is not blatantly obvious PR bullshit with no substance just to make all the haters shut up.
Stay ignorant...

>>The last thread was a Garrosh did nutin' wrong thread. Of course we'd experience the opposite next thread.

Queen Azshara did nothing wrong!

Queen Azshara nearly doomed Azeroth because she was convinced Sargeras's dick was the only dick good enough for her in the galaxy. She'll fuck anyone if she can get power out of it. Vanity and arrogance nearly ended the world.

Would any of you worthless idiots mind talking about Veeky Forums related content rather than summoning the summer squad by mentioning SJWs?

At least TRY to make it look related. Compare lore points while shitting all over the movie if that's what it takes.

Why 5e? It doesn't seem like it would work well at all. Especially in the case of Martials.

Hogger did nothing wrong!

I played Horde before Alliance, so I can't really appreciate the mythos of Hogger.

so uh.....why exactly does the Horde put up with the Undead? I never played the MMO.

It also works pretty poorly for casters

Warcraft does not use vancian magic

It's explained in the very beginning that more than anything, the Forsaken joining the Horde is an alliance of convenience. The Horde wants a foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms, and the Forsaken don't want to be overrun by the Alliance. Plus, there's a weird sense of comraderie about trying to eke out a living on Azeroth despite their lot in life.

For the same reason US puts up with Pakistan and Turkey - they allow for better power projection.

at the end of TFT into WoW they fit the whole "persecuted savage" archetype the rest of the Horde was part of. Then later they became the Scourge 2.0 and only stuck around because of bad writing and muh faction balance

Because, back in Vanilla, the Horde was much, much weaker than the Alliance, especially when the Alliance teamed up with the Night Elves

The Forsaken approached the Horde first, for fear of being steamrolled by Ironforge and Stormwind, the Horde agreed for fear of losing their lumber supply.

If you're now thinking "but that doesn't apply anymore, they no longer have any reason to be allied" Congratulations, you are more insightful to the setting than Kosak

That too. At least warcasters would get to do Cool Things though. I can't think of any Warcraft character as limited in options as a Champion Fighter.

>warcasters

Don't mind me, I am reading through M3 spoilers for Warmachine.

Spellcasters + Warcraft = Warcasters.

I meant Spellcasters would get to do Cool Things.

>Warcraft does not use vancian magic
t. the Skull of Gul'dan being used for different shit in every fuckin' game

I'd just like to know whether Sylvanas was merely pretending when she threw her pet demon and Putress under the bus, or whether it was a genuine "character development" for her to go full hitler during battle for Gilneas.

Because Garrosh in Cataclysm was a warmongering aggressor, but he did not condone wholesale genocide or deployment of plague.

I wonder how many other parts of Gul'dan can be used for great destruction.

>If you're now thinking "but that doesn't apply anymore, they no longer have any reason to be allied" Congratulations, you are more insightful to the setting than Kosak

in-game faction mechanics prohibit any substantial political shifts of player factions.
They can make their leaders lose their shit or even leads, they can juggle power around, but they will never EVER make one of them neutral or even switch sides outright. Never.

When you're horde or alliance, you're it for life.

>at the end of TFT into WoW they fit the whole "persecuted savage" archetype
youtu.be/DpEXhNjEeHY?t=11m44s

Before Cataclysm she wasn't written by Kosak

During Cataclysm she was

There's your "character development"

Sylvanas insists Varimathras acted alone, that he was serving some other "master" (who you could actually hear in the final fight with him). Varimathras was the one who incited Putress and the Royal Apothecary Society to treachery and kicked Sylvanas out of her own city.

>next expansion players must find the elbow of Gul'dan, famed for it's role in fighting the common cold

In Vanilla and TBC they were basically a client state of The Horde that they used to maintain a presence in the Eastern Kingdoms and were a crucial part of the Horse's military strategy in Wrath.

At this point they're too integrated into The Horde to be cut loose without significantly weakening the Horde's power. And with Jaina and half the Alliance just waiting for a chance to strike there's no way they'd take that risk.

I don't think you understand my point

My point was not "they should no longer be allied", my point was "they should have never become stronger than the Alliance"

Cataclysm broke the lore of the series

we have no reason to believe that Sylvanas knew about what Putress had planed, but we also have no reason other than her word to believe the opposite, so it's pretty up in the air

"Macguffin that superpowers warlock magic" is a pretty common theme in it's usage

>Cataclysm broke the lore of the series
is that the one where Deathwing comes back? I thought he died in warcraft 2

The Cataclysm hit the Alliance areas a lot harder than the Horde ones. Plus the Forsaken got a huge boost in power with the addition of the Val'kyr. Being able to replenish their numbers and still keep their Undead toughness? Badass.

god the voice acting in WC2 is so fucking good

the book retconned that I think. They killed a bunch of his children with Gruul and beat him up, then he went back to Azeroth to get blinged up

Yes, Cataclysm is the expansion where Deathwing comes back and literally breaks the world.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=TknF4UODXCc

Yup

And nne of that should have happened due to the impact such things should naturally have on the political climate of the world and how incompatible such changes would be with pre-existing and unchangeable game mechanics

The political climate wasn't ready for Garrosh slamming his face into everything he saw.

>"There's been a giant disaster, thousands are dead and without homes, our infrastructure is fucked, and the guys responsible are still out there planning to do it again"
>"Well ok, we'll rebuild and send a force too... what's that noise. War drums?"
>"Lok'tar ogar!"

Precisely, it was fucking stupid

garrosh just wanted to make Orcs great again
fuck the dindunuffin peacehippie orcs, i want my rampaging Horde back

The issue is that when Garrosh came to power in the wake of the Cataclysm, he immediately went on the warpath despite everyone still trying to recover and make sense of what the fuck just happened.

Then you'll need to kick out every single non-orc in it.

The trolls are the peaceful, not the rampaging trolls.
The blood eves and undead WERE alliance.
The tauren are a peaceful race.