Why do people act like Lorgar was wrong when he was pretty much the only Primarch who was 100% right?

Why do people act like Lorgar was wrong when he was pretty much the only Primarch who was 100% right?

In 40k if you don't have the backing of a god you are shit, humanity needed it's own god if it wanted to survive.
Without the Imperial Faith humanity was doomed to fall to Chaos in the long run, the Emperor's plan to fix everything with atheism was going to fail and he really should've known that. Without the faith of quadrillions the Emperor would've never been strong enough to fight the Chaos Gods and in the long run the best hope for humanity would be a small minority escaping to the human webway, congrats you've repeated the mistakes of the Eldar.
Also notice how Lorgar was the only Primarch who came out of the Horus Heresy better off than before it started? And how he's pretty much the only Primarch who hasn't died, disappeared or been completely fucked over by Chaos? Wow it's almost like he's the only one who knows what he's doing.

Lorgar was right, but that doesn't mean he wasn't also a whiny little pissant. They two aren't mutually exclusive.

Sure, why not?

Was there a primarch who wasn't whiny?

All hail Saint Erebus!

He saw the light first and showed it to Lorgar.
I still can't forgive Horus for bullying him.

>And how he's pretty much the only Primarch who hasn't died, disappeared or been completely fucked over by Chaos?

He has disappeared though. Dude has done even less than Mortarian

Russ, Dorn, and Horus come to mind

Vulkan?

He was also one of the few Primarchs who was genuinely a nice person.

I always found it sort of weird that Veeky Forums has no sympathy for a manlet intellectual who gets forced into doing a job he hates, for a father who thinks he's a disappointing failure and brothers who constantly bully him.

Hell, Erebus and Kor Phaeron are pretty much the poster boys for how cults operate in the real world. Take advantage of emotionally-crippled loners until they give themselves over to you heart-and-soul, and end up cutting all ties to their past life.

He whined and cried about the Eldar or something, also he was always trying to convince his brothers that Nocturne lives mattered

IDK even Magnus thought Lorgar a dork and bullied him

Am I the only one who absolutely loves that picture?
The way the blood arcs from the marine as he flies through the air really shows how fucking strong the Primarchs are compared to even your average genetically altered superhuman.

And the weakest Primarch by far

...

Whoa there son

I'm a Word Bearers fan too, but slow down there.

All of the Primarchs in 30K, even before the Horus Heresy lore expansions, have from the get-go been tragic figures in the classical sense. This means that every one of them has had positive and negative characteristics, as well as there being strong elements of fatalism in their destinies that could have been avoided with a few seemingly insignificant decisions.

What makes the Emperor a Tragic Figure is that while his intentions were noble and ultimately good, his refusal to understand himself sowed the seeds of insubordination and of destruction. Had he nurtured and pruned the Imperial Cult, it would have cemented the Imperium even further and likely driven it to greater glories than it ever could have achieved as a secular institution. Events like Monarchia in and of themselves would not have been an undoing of the Imperium, but through massive tinder on an Arizona brushfire that was the psyche of the other Tragic Primarchs.

What makes Lorgar a Tragic Figure is the fact that he trusted too much in his adviser and his Colchisian father. Lorgar was too empathetic of others, and cared too much about his people and in his faith. This meant that Erebus and Kor Phaeron were able to twist words in his ears and poison his caring and nurturing heart to blasphemous destruction, things that never would have happened had Lorgar been less concerned with the opinions of others. Empathy isn't a weakness, but being too empathetic most certainly can be, and is what ultimately brought Lorgar to Chaos via Erebus and Kor Phaeron in a moment of weakness.

40K is not just a Grimdark setting, but a Tragic one. Each Primarch has flaws, as does the Emperor, and fatalism and destiny are often the cause of sorrow, but could have been avoided by a few small decisions by the great Heroes of the setting (Think Odysseus, Achilles, Oedipus, etc.) that we as the audience can clearly see.

>that we as the audience can clearly see

But we get a lot of advantages in that respect; part of the tragedy is that a lot of bad decisions seemed like good ideas to the people making them.

>All of the Primarchs in 30K, even before the Horus Heresy lore expansions, have from the get-go been tragic figures in the classical sense. This means that every one of them has had positive and negative characteristics, as well as there being strong elements of fatalism in their destinies that could have been avoided with a few seemingly insignificant decisions.

Magnus did nothing wrong

Oh yeah, that's what I'm saying. Just like in Greek myths, the audience can clearly see the error of such decisions and the circumstances behind them, but in the tale itself the decisions aren't nearly as cut-and-dry and, as you said, often seem perfectly logical at that point.

Classic Tragedy is chock full of perfectly reasonable decisions that lead to damnation and perfect heroes being led to their destruction through no real fault of their own. Not even taking into account that Primarchs logically WOULD act like overgrown manchildren (because they never needed to emotionally mature beyond that point like regular people do) understanding how Tragedy works will enable you to enjoy the 40K setting a hell of a lot more.

Eh, he was still blinded by his own arrogance, despite the fact that his intentions were noble and seemingly perfectly sound.

The Tragedy of Magnus is that had Magnus obeyed the Emperor, his Legion would never have had to suffer like it did and his homeworld would still have been alive, as well as the fact that Magnus would not have destroyed the Webway and would have been given the sacred honor reserved for him from the get-go to be in command of the Astronomicon (Which Magnus correctly realized was a symbol of the Emperors complete faith and trust in him to power the very device that holds the Imperium together).

The Tragedy of the Emperor is that had he told Magnus about Chaos, and worked alongside him to protect him from its corrupting influence, Magnus likely never would have fallen in the first place, and all the death and destruction could have been avoided.

Magnus was a good man in a bad spot who made the wrong choice, like most other Traitor Primarchs (barring Curze and Angron, who are very different creatures).

What part of "nothing wrong" are you failing to comprehend?

Pic related, it's the one Primarch that truly did nothing wrong

...

Logar was ISIS. In visions of heresy one of the reasons the emperor shows up is that he is slashing and burning loyal world's for not worshipping the emperor hard enough. He wasn't right, he was an ass.

Clearly the core concept, because Magnus still did wrong. His wrong was just a perfectly understandable one.

Cheating on your wife because she's in a coma and you have needs is understandable, but it's still wrong to do it.

In all honesty, I think Russ gets way more shit than he deserves here (though he still deserves some shit). He was a man who landed on a hostile planet full of dangerous psychopaths, living a ferocious, feral mask because he believed it's what was required of him, and was often forced to kill people who he considered to be brothers (as it's implied with the Lost Legions). He was what he thought he was SUPPOSED to be, not what he actually wanted to be, which meant he sometimes was too over-zealous in being the Executioner of the Emperor to compensate for the fact that he never wanted to be that in the first place. He actually cried before Prospero - not necessarily for Magnus, but because Russ legitimately believed Magnus had given him no choice in the matter, and he didn't want to kill his brother no matter how much they may have disagreed. It wasn't going to stop him from doing what he thought his job was, but it still caused him heartbreak.

>Manipulated by Horus
>Attempted to kill the only being that could fix the Webway project (yes, we know he was also responsible for it)

Ignorance is no excuse, otherwise most of the Primarchs did nothing wrong.

Also
>Fucking Psykers and their bullshit, unstable nerds that don't deserve that power, but my guys totally aren't Psykers, it's 'k

Well said

Russ hated sorcerrors, his Rune Priests knew the limits of what to do and what not to do

See

If Gulliman and Lorgar had spent more time together, they would have been friends.

Eh, he was probably one of the "best" Primarchs, but he only had faith in himself at the end of the day. If he didn't understand it, it didn't exist to him, especially when it comes to spirituality (which is a real thing in 40K, remember). He was probably the "best" person besides Vulkan (and I stick by my theory that it's because both of them had "normal" father figures in their lives) but he was still blinded by his own hubris to the reality of the galaxy as Lorgar tried to show him.

>he was probably one of the "best" Primarchs, but he only had faith in himself at the end of the day

Not true, Rowboat trusted Russ, Dorn, Sanguinius, and Mannus explicitly

They WERE friends. That's partly why Monarchia hurt Lorgar so much.

Lorgar always looked up to RG as a friendly rival and friend, and greatly respected him and his Legion. RG believed that Lorgar and the Word Bearers heart was in the right place, but they were too busy being religious to be good conquerors (which is ironic considering the effectiveness and devotion of the worlds they conquered), and wanted Lorgar to "move on" for fear that he be censored. He viewed him as basically as that High-School friend who, despite being a really cool guy, never really "grew up," while Lorgar viewed RG as that High-School Friend who went to college, got a good job, became a suit, married a beautiful and smart girl, and has settled down to raise a family, but didn't understand why other people aren't able to do the exact same thing he did.

Monarchia to Lorgar was the ultimate bitch-slap by his father, his God, and the brother he aspired to be like.

Monarchia to RG was an avoidable event that Lorgar brought upon himself despite RG's constant well-meaning warnings about his behavior ("I came to you as a friend, I came to you as a member of the Church, and now I gotta come to you as the law." type situation). It was the cruel but necessary wake-up call to shake his brother out of his delusions and make him into the Primarch he should be and RG knew he could be.

>He was also one of the few Primarchs who was genuinely a nice person.

uhh... didn't Lorgar kill a whole planet because he was covering up some shameful shit?

He let his petty tantrum with girlyman fester into a blind hatred that let him get suckered in by Samus. If he hadn't been so ass destroyed about not being able to follow a basic and reasonable instruction like not worshipping the emperor, Erebus and Kor Phaeron wouldn't have had a way in. Look at all these heretics defending one of the objectively least defensible sub-marchs.

After he fell, yes. That's an age old but surprisingly accurate trope of "The most heartless monsters were once the most virtuous heroes." When heroes fall, they fall HARD.

Lorgar is wrong, the Emperor was right. The Chaos "gods" aren't divine, they're fed by belief. Fill the galaxy full of reasonable people and they starve.

>after he fell

that wasn't the case

If you're referring to the planet that worshiped "The Stormlord" which was actually the Emperor, then yeah, that was after Monarchia. He explicitly mentions to one of his soldiers that he has written a new book (The Eightfold Path), that he will soon distribute to the Legion.

>this entire post

Do you even understand Greek Tragedy, user?

He didn't immediately convert to being a degenerate chaos nigger

Most fa/tg/uys are narcissistic, below average intelligence, and self-absorbed. They will convince themselves of whatever they wish to believe. Just chuckle at them and move on.

It wasn't quite immediate, but he was already firmly set upon that path thanks to Erebus and Kor Phaeron, who had shortly after Monarchia convinced him to revisit worshipping the Old Gods of Colchis (i.e. The Chaos Gods). He did not know he was on the path to Chaos at that point, but we as the audience are fully aware of it.

I'm not interested in your literature 101 critical analysis, faggot. I'm just stating facts.

>implying Angron was fucked by chaos

Dude Angron went from a crazy motherfucker that kills until killed into a crazy motherfucker that kills until killed...only he could forever come back for round 2 because he was a fucking immortal demon that caused it to rain blood wherever he went.

Angron definitely won out when the heresy was over.

>I'm just stating facts.

It's not facts when they're wrong, faggot.

But the Emperor was correct in his plan while Lorgar did everything to fuck up his plans.
The suppression of religion, the quick conquest of human planets and their retooling for total war and the human Webway project were a gamble the Emperor risked. Weaken the Chaos gods by denying them faith across the galaxy and weaken the Warp inhabitants when humanity starts relying on Webway travel. He risked everything on completing his vision before the Chaos Gods fully awake and try to fuck humanity up.
Then comes along Lorgar, who takes ages to pacify planets. Then he uses the Word Bearers, the super soldiers of humanity, to build nice places of worship on said worlds. He then manages to get corrupted by Chaos, fucks over Horus and consequently the Imperium gets torn in half in a massive civil war that boosts the Chaos Gods to new levels. Literally the only thing he didn't fuck up was the human Webway. That was Magnus, who did it precisely because of the events Lorgar put into motion.

The only thing the Emperor fucked up was him believing his superhuman generals would listen to him and obey his orders. Which is believable, because he was so far removed from normal human thinking, nor could he expect the primarchs would be such emotional beings.

Some of the BL covers are really nice

Ferrus.

>But the Emperor was correct in his plan

About the general idea, yes - by removing religion from the galaxy he would be able to harm the Chaos Gods and eventually starve them of their power.

About how to actually DO that, he was wrong, and the fact that it WAS wrong came up multiple times in the Great Crusade and early stages of the Horus Heresy. A woman banished a Pink/Blue Horror of Tzeentch through faith in the Emperor alone - her faith had real, legitimate power in the material and Immaterial universe, despite the fact that The Emperor himself said that it wouldn't happen. The Chaos Gods view the Emperor as a rival god, and true faith in him has legitimate power over them - as previously cited, calling upon the Emperor can banish Daemons by people with no psychic ability to do so on their own. If the Emperor wasn't divine (or if the Chaos Gods didn't view him as divine, as the two are pretty much the same thing) this wouldn't have been able to happen.

The Emperor WAS a god, but not in the Abrahamic, Omnipotent/Ominscient sense that we Westerners understand it even though he was Jesus Christ, but that's a whole different point, but much, much closer to a Greek god - an immortal, incredibly potent entity that has incredible power and many areas of influence, but also has flaws that can be exploited. His flaw - his refusal to understand and admit his own divinity - is what ultimately led to so many problems for him.

You can't crush faith from existence, as the Emperor learned the hard way. You can only harness it to your own ends, and attempt to use it in a positive way, less it grow unchecked and uncontrollable as it happened in the Horus Heresy.

This isn't even getting into the fact that the transition from 30K Emperor to 40K Emperor is a direct parallel to the transition from Old Testament God to New Testament God.

True, the belief in him would weaken Chaos Gods more. But the Great Crusade was all about speed. It's easier and much faster to conquer a planet and start shooting every religious person until the planet is mostly atheist, than it's to conquer a planet and instill a completely new religion on to it. Even if the Emperor personally visited each and every conquered planet, there would still be enough people that would resist him based on their principles or outright deny his powers, like many did. Or at least that might have been his reasoning.

He wasn't right, though, he was a sperg with a deep-seated psychological NEED for a god to worship. Sure, Chaos Gods can grant a good amount of power if the whim strikes, but it always ends up leading to the person in question's downfall in the end, because they're quick to abandon you once you no longer amuse.

Probably because, really, he wasn't right? Religion doesn't protect you against Chaos. If anything, it makes you more vulnerable to it. What the Imperium needed wasn't a "patron god" to suck up to, it needed *education*.

Look at the Interex. They were a secular empire, just like the Emperor wanted the Imperium to be. But instead of sticking their head in the sand and pretending that Chaos didn't exist, they educated their populace about what it was, its dangers, and its deceptions. The result was a virtual golden age; they didn't fall until Chaos arranged for the Imperium to go to war with them.

Really, everything about the Heresy can be laid at Lorgar's feet. He was the one who first spread the taint of Chaos, he ultimately arranged for the Horus Heresy to happen. Why? Because he was a religious nut who, when his god-figure spurned his faith, couldn't cope until he found some other god to worship instead. The whole nightmare mess that is the Imperium stems from the fact Lorgar was a fundamentalist, who couldn't see a "point" to existence without some god to kiss up to.

You know how that woman succeeded in banishing a Horror? Not because she believed the Emperor was a god. But because she had *faith*. The Warp is a dimension of pure emotional energy, shaped by thought, feeling and will. If you *believe* in something strongly enough, the Warp responds. When an Imperial calls upon the Emperor to banish a Daemon, it doesn't work because the Emperor's a god - it's because the fervent belief of the Imperial's mind focuses their own psionic energies to unravel those holding the daemon together.

>It's easier and much faster to conquer a planet and start shooting every religious person until the planet is mostly atheist, than it's to conquer a planet and instill a completely new religion on to it.

That's true, but that's not really what they did once the planet surrendered. They had massive Not!Theocratic adepts and ministers who would integrate themselves into the new population and promote secularization and destroy religious organizations at the economic and social levels and bury them in new traditions and the idea of a unified Imperial Culture, while promoting "Reason" and "Enlightenment." They ironically acted exactly like a religious organization does, but promoted atheism in place of new religion (turning it into a religion in its own convoluted way). This wasn't an immediate process, but one accomplished over a period of years of internal strife and running philosophical, social, and military battles between the "Old Bosses" and the "New Bosses." of the planet, before resistance was eventually ground down under the cog of the Imperium.

From a methodology standpoint, the problem with the Word Bearers was the Legions personal involvement in the integration process and their dedication to doing so to maximum effectiveness. When it came to loyalty, "Acceptable" wasn't good enough - their faith in the God-Emperor, and by extension his Imperium of Man, had to be without question before the Legion could move on and be confident in their decisions. They had a personal hand in the process, using Chaplains to promote both learning, cultural education, and religious fervor in the population to unify them under the common banner of the Imperium (again, never underestimate the power of faith in unifying people) and in turn made sure that their worlds were the most loyal and devoted to the Imperium that they possibly could be (Which was a recognized fact in the Great Crusade). They moved too slowly, but they moved slowly to ensure perfection.

>Not because she believed the Emperor was a god. But because she had *faith*.

As well as the fact that the Daemon in question was physically repulsed by the symbol of the Emperor, and the fact that the Chaos Gods outright fear the Emperor and view him as a rival (Hence why they have made it their permanent goal to get rid of him from existence). Symbols of the Aquila cause Daemons pain even before wide-spread Emperor worship in the 40K universe, and they always go to great lengths to corrupt the sign of the Aquila right off the bat whenever they made their presence known in the Material universe of the Great Crusade.

To put it simply, if people can call upon your powers like a god, if praying to you makes you physically stronger, and if other canon gods view you as being a threat to their existence because of your god-like power, you're a god in AT LEAST the functional sense. The Emperor refused to reconcile this fact, and that, coupled with his fanatical approach to the Long View at the expense of the Short View, is what brought him down and caused the rebellion.

>Really, everything about the Heresy can be laid at Lorgar's feet.

That's a funny way to spell "Erebus."

Curzefag is with a C. What do you gain not only by shitposting on a bait thread, but by doing while pretending to be someone else?

>as Lorgar tried to show him
why should he listen to literally the dumbest primarch?

Dude couldn't take calth, even with his daemon friends. The word bearers have also been completely irrelevant after that, while the Ultramarines remain the GREATEST OF THEM ALL despite ten thousand years of stagnation. Quite obviously the Codex Astartes is a greater truth than the primordial "truth".

>why should he listen to literally the dumbest primarch?

Lorgar was flawed as all Primarchs are flawed, but "dumbest" is hardly accurate unless you're one of the faggots who thinks religion is dumb in itself.

>Dude couldn't take calth, even with his daemon friends.

But he made the statement he needed to make, and drove a gigantic scar into the Ultramarines psyche. It is also worth mentioning that Calth was going awesome until Kor Phaeron disobeyed Lorgars orders and attempted to corrupt RG instead of just killing him when he had the chance, which was the tipping point of the battle that allowed the Ultramarines to come back and win the day.

they also had to lose, because plot

>The word bearers have also been completely irrelevant after that

Only if you skip over any fluff that isn't Black Legion. They're not at the level of the Black Legion, but they're still extremely active in 40K, and are second in organization and strength to the Black Legion (although maybe Red Corsairs have surpassed them now).

> while the Ultramarines remain the GREATEST OF THEM ALL despite ten thousand years of stagnation.

A. They aren't stagnated. The Ultramarines, while still being extremely rigid and hidebound, still adapt to new tactics and technology as it becomes available to them, al la Centurion Armor and Hunters/Stalkers and Tyrannic War Veterans and their tactics.

B. They're the flagship line of the 40K modelling scene. Of course they're going to win, as plot demands they can't permanently lose anything.

>Quite obviously the Codex Astartes is a greater truth than the primordial "truth".

A. Guilliman himself believed that the Codex was a rough guideline and far from perfect, and needed to be adapted to as needed. It wasn't a "truth" to him moreso as a mindset.

B. We're talking about Pre-Fall Lorgar here, and the relevance of faith and the divinity of the Emperor and Guillimans refusal to give those ideas credibility.

Actually in one of the Grey Knight novels, the Imperium is what made the Warp give a shit about humanity, because they had finally built something lasting. Had humans remained isolated on different worlds without a unifying government, daemons wouldn't have cared very much.

Lion El'Jonson.

Never whined, just punched your face off.