Pathfinder General /pfg/

Pathfinder General /pfg/

So now that the dust has settled, what's your opinion on UI?

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How good is Evangelist? How important is wisdom to an Evangelist? Clerics are really lacking on skill ranks to be honest.

Miffed they cut Tailful Polymorph

I AM THE MASKED BANDITO, RODRIGO. CONTAIN YOUR SEQUELS OF EXCITEMENT.

We know Tomas, you have revealed yourself three times. And my name is Roger.

VAMOS LUCHA!

Hes really a nice guy when the mask comes off. Now about that reward....

Which of the vigilante archetypes are best at Intrigue? A campaign is starting out with the party having been captured by a band of hobgoblins. Could it be possible for me to maintain my secret identity? Is there a way for me to not be unmasked? Perhaps bolting my mask onto my face.

Sad that I have not stated out the Pathfinder Avengers yet.

What? And why?

Vigilante was a shockingly awful concept with shockingly good execution.

Stealth errata to teleportation was dumb. Reminders that Detect Alignment spells are literally nonfunctional at best, or hilariously abusable at worse was hilarious.

This meme needs to stop.

Pretty much what I expected. A book full of stuff that will never see use, except for a small handful spells and archetypes.

The vigilante's social and vigilante talent spread should have been the unchained fighter.

UI was a mess of a framework with a lot of disappointments (Warlock and magical child reee).

Inner Sea Intrigue, lewd stuff aside, introduced a bunch of cooler things that made the framework more tolerable.

Is there any way for a brutal slayer bushi stalker to get Wis on Perform, as well as Stealth? You can Perform -> Dex with Agile Dancer, and either skill -> Wis with Wisdom in the Flesh, but I'm greedy and unreasonable.

Even if you take Agile Dancer, you can still use Charisma so long as it's higher, so anything that swaps from Dex or Charisma to Wisdom would work, although I'll probably need to bite the bullet on Additional Traits if there is indeed a solution. Which is fine, the fourth Trait can be a discipline swap or Reactionary. Fair deal.

>Tailful Polymorph
>You may also optionally choose to add, improve, alter, or remove other animalistic features in the same way as a tail. If an animalistic feature other than a tail is removed, rather than vanishing entirely, it changes to resemble that of an average human. For example, removing the animalistic feature of a catfolk’s ears would change that catfolk’s ears to resemble human ears

And STAY gone.

>pic related
For knightanon.

>CONTAIN YOUR SEQUELS OF EXCITEMENT.
>SEQUELS

I doubt you'll make enough at the box office.

I've been hearing a lot of claims about how Vigilante is better than both base Rogue and base Fighter at their jobs, has anyone got any proper builds or examples to back it up?

>Clerics are really lacking on skill ranks to be honest.

Have you considered the Cardinal?

Mostly garbage. Overly-complicated, poorly formatted garbage... but overly complicated and poorly formatted is nothing new for Pathfinder.

There are a few good ideas in there, but honestly at this point it's easier to just disallow it and not have to deal with the hassle of the shit stuff that's also in there.

Do you even need a build?

Why it's better than Fighter: Same BAB and Sneak Attacks.

Why it's better than Rogue: Weaker Sneak Attacks, but same BAB as Fighter, so not instantly useless against undead or when denied a flanking bonus.

>Warlock will never be a standalone class
>Paizo will probably never redo the archetype to make the mystic bolts not have garbage scaling
>they will also never release new talents or items to bandaid fix that piss-poor scaling

I like the vigilante archetype for it, but it's underwhelming and half baked at best. Too bad homebrewing it as a standalone class is redundant. NOT THAT IT'S GONNA STOP ME.

God bless that one feat that replaces combat expertise. I told a dirty trick fighter in my group about it and his face was like a toddler on Christmas Morning.

I need a character concept for a group that has every base covered, 25-PB with gestalt and Paizo only material.

I'm thinking of going with a dorky Tiefling (Demon-Spawn) Warpriest/Paladin with terrible fashion sense because he rolled "no reflection" on the alternate Tiefling traits.

He also practices his heroic entrances in front of the mirror.

...What?
It sounds like you've read even less of the class than I have.
Reread Vigilante Specialization. You need to CHOOSE between sneak attacks or full BAB. You can't get both.

Build it as you would build a fighter... with more skill points to burn.

wait was tailful poloymorph actually a thing?

jesus christ pathfinder every time i turn around and leave you unsupervised you let feral furries in to track mud all over my fucking game.

No, it was a joke posted in here on April 1st.

Do it user, that sounds hilarious. Maybe take Stunning Irruption to Dynamic Entry into fights.

Why it's better than base fighter
>Avenger gives you the same BAB and the same, if not even more, feats than a fighter will ever have
>and some of those feats also come with special bonuses tacked onto them JUST BECAUSE
>Sure you have a d8 HD but guess what?
>YOU GET SKILLS, NIGGA, AND YOU GET OTHER SHIT FOR THINGS THAT AREN'T COMBAT
>Bawww, you lost your good fort save, but you now have a good Reflex AND Will save
>if you're building a fighter you probably have 14-16 Con anyway, and shit should probably be dead before it even gets to attack you
>ghetto armor training to let you move at full speed in medium and heavy armor

The archetype is hella good, and if you're not using any save based spells you only really *need* enough wis to cast your spells, but in practice you'll want a few bonus spells too.

Beat me to posting it, and with alot less words.

I would, however Bardic Performance is conceptually powerful in the setting for some reason (it holds a lot of religious significance). So I was trying to grab it.

Okay, that makes sense.
But harder question now: is Vigilante worth choosing over a properly archetyped fighter, maybe with weapon/armor master's handbook stuff?

...

For a hidden blade, would it be worth taking the first 3 levels as a psyarm? Could/should I take the blade skill to finesse the panoply and get damage later? It seems like spreading between dex, int, wis, and con is a bad way to do things

Why finesse at all when you can just go full Wis?

>Finesse the panoply

I don't think that's possible? Which skill are you thinking of?
In general that sounds like a mess of a build even so.

And it's still here? In JUNE? Christ, I've known CHILDREN who died faster than that.

Can I just ban the fighter and have the players choose pow classes?
The myrmidon will be available however

Why not go with a Vigilante?

I don't see how I would have any sort of defenses with no heavy armor or high dex to ac/reflex, and I'm already using int for the initiating on rogue.

Last I checked the finesse bladeskill wasn't blacklisted for psyarm, though that was in the playtest.

thank god. seriously though pathfinder has an oddly high amount of furry/scalie player options/

So my sorcerer has suddenly found himself owner of half a dozen cloud giant corpses who can apparently wield weapons one size larger than usual. Normally I would not consider these candidate for undead minions since he's on the pacifist side and avoids raising good aligned sapients. But on the off chance that they turn out to be the evil kind I wanted to check a ruling about weapons one step larger.

Cloud giants can apparently wield gargantuan sized weapons without penalty so I'm thinking four bloody skeletons armed with longspears marching phalanx style. Anyways, do larger weapons benefit increased reach or is the threatened range based on the wielders size and not the weapon?

That's pretty fair, Warlord and Warder essentially do the jobs almost any fighter build could do, but better.

Do leave a small caveat that people can play fighter if they somehow make a really impressive build even without Myrmidon, though.

>Anyways, do larger weapons benefit increased reach or is the threatened range based on the wielders size and not the weapon?
The latter.

Wielder's size.

Social Talents, an archetypes fighter is still severely lacking in out of combat abilities.

Which way do you think it works?

Wrong. It works the dumb way.

That Collosal++++++++++ sized sword? Yeah, if you can acquire the ability to wield it, a standard human can swing it at zero issue in a 5ft corridor.

Fucking googly eyes man

I like that caveat because some people can do some dumb shit with a Fighter.

Is there a way to add released undead back to your CLx4 animate dead control pool?

and just because my last one summed it up nicely, I guess why it's better than the base rogue:
>Your sneak attacks are gimped, but in most cases you'll probably have about the same results
>Oh no you have fewer skills, but you also get a FUCKTON MORE TALENTS
>most of those fucktons of talents are also way more useful than the shit a rogue gets
>seriously what the fuck is this bullshit
>you can even jack a rogue talent if it's any good
>unchained rogue gets finesse and dex-to-damage for free, but you at least have your talent for finesse and ghetto half-level-to-damage thing if you want to do that, too
>GOOD WILL SAVE MOTHERFUCKER
>dual identity is kind of pointless, but you can use it for some nifty shit instead of pretending to be a superhero

There are barely any good social talents. I was just looking over the list and trying to see what I would pick from levels 1-11.

>Level 1
The fact all the interesting talents either need Renown or 5th level means you're practically forced into taking Renown here.
And Renown on its own is useless apart from as a selective Skill Focus (Intimidate); everything else should be a roleplay reward rather than a mechanic. I particularly dislike the implication that if you're in a party with a vigilante it might mean nobody else is allowed to become as famous as them, because they spent class features on it.

>Level 3
Dunno, either Celebrity Discount or Safe House?
Safe house is okay but it's essentially just a roleplaying reward and can be replicated by coating the walls with lead. Celebrity Discount is hardly special on its own.

>5
Mockingbird is actually good. This one I'll give it. Probably the best choice here. The Many Guises chain is also okay but Mockingbird and other talent taxes mean you're probably putting them off until later.

>7
Quick change. This is pretty much a talent tax, forcing you to buy something you should have been able to get already.

>9
Subjective Truth: Also a tax. You get dual identity as a class feature, you shouldn't need to spend another class feature to stop a simple spell from foiling it.

>11
I guess you get Many Guises/Everyman now when even 6th-level casters have had disguise/alter self months ago, and a hat of disguise is only 2000gp?

There's really nothing that special here.

No, but you can grab them with the spell Command Undead or the channeling feat Command Undead.

Yeah, I don't know why Paizo gave them both the same name either.

I am aware that it is generally a terrible way to do things, but how would one optimize a "tank"?

Paladin gets self heals, cha to saves, smite to ac and damage, and some other goodies. Warpriest gets all of the feats, swift action self casts, also has self heals, and is a 6th level caster...

How would you also make the "tank" not just a waste of a party slot? Step up and strike is probably a good feat chain to ensure that enemy casters can't cast well...

Problem with those is that you need to spend talents to get stuff rogue gets as default.
>Want pseudo dex to damage? Spend a talent
(Also this is still worse low levels and doesn't let you dump STR)
>Want evasion? Spend a talent
>Want ranged sneak attack? Spend a talent
>Uncanny dodge? Talent

You need to spend almost half your vigilante talents to do all this stuff a rogue has by default. In the meantime, the rogue gets four extra rogue talents with their equivalent features.

W A R D E R
A
R
D
E
R

The reason so many of them feel like must-picks or taxes is because during the playtest, Social Talents weren't picked the way Vigilante talents were; they were class features, you just got what you got, at the level you got it. People complained, and in a rare fit of listening to their consumers, Paizo changed it. But only enough to add an illusion of choice, not ACTUAL choices. Don't be crazy.

It highly depends what you mean by "tank". If you want damage mitigation/effect mitigation Zealots are BY FAR the best at it (if DSP is allowed). Using their other abilities allows them to support and keep enemies in place (using eternal guardian and grabbing a debuff heavy discipline like cursed razor).

As a creation zealot you will outheal and outlast every other class by a wide margin once combat begins. If you're a destruction zealot you'll be able to do that nearly as well but also outbuff the bard.

Zealots are a very strong choice for "tanks". Choose strikes that impair movement and counters that allow you to help other's make saves & negate hits.

When it comes to making a party durable a properly build zealot outclasses literally every other class, DSP or Paizo.

>not letting you dump a stat into oblvion
>while still not making you MAD
>bad thing

>but also outbuff the bard.
POW IS BALANCED GUISE I SWARE

Zealot does it better.

>this meme

PoW full initiators are all just outright superior to other classes. Optimized casters can beat them but nothing else can.

They should be tagged with CR +1 or something.

no 3rd party material.

pls no. No more PoW balance arguments.

Warpriest gets access to disruptive, and besides that I don't see many ways to make a caster have a hard time apart from grappling them. Am I missing anything?

Guy, you forgot your name.

So, have there been any changes to the Spheres of Power: Alterations book to make it, well steal less from other spheres?
A link would be appreciated because I lost that tab.

>CR +1 or something.
Try CR+4. Not even joking.

Zealots blow bards out of the water honestly. Zealots do skills very well as well due to the ability to aid another themselves and add zeal intensity to it. Essentially it's a floating +2-6 to any skill. Their collective is very useful for communication over distances and silently. Using stances they get plenty of OOC abilities and with strikes they get combat versatility.

They outbuff a bard and outfight an inquisitor simultaneously.

They're equal to 6 partial casters. ALL full casters can beat them, and handily out of battle, though optimization level determines who wins in combat for either side.

Again what do you want out of a "tank"?

Do you want threat management? Damage mitigation? Something else. Specify and we might be able to help.

CR +1 is a measure of level, not for what they can punch at.

In combat I can not see most initiators (especially zealots) losing to a caster. The cast most likely will be forced to flee. This is due to skill replace save counters. Saving throws become meaningless to zealots as they can simply choose to pass several because skills scale much more readily than saving throw bonuses.

Not every spell the caster will throw is a "you lose" button. With spellcraft they can identify then pick & choose.

Out of combat is where full casters really shine because of utility spells. In combat outside of edge cases (dominate is one such edge case as it is simply a broken spell) initiators do very well.

I'm using the argument of fighting an enemy with class levels because that does happen very often.

No I didn't.

And can we please avoid the PoW argument? Lets stick to pazioshit only.

In short: yes.

A player joined one of my games and is rocking a 30 AC at level 8, playing as a paladin. His damage output is pitiful, but I didn't really realize how effective a passive defense like that is until I saw it in action. Any turn a monster spent attacking him was a complete waste, and he was good at positioning as to make himself a constant thorn in the monsters side.

The primary goals are AC, Saves, and self healing. Thus probably a paladin or war-priest. I would also like some offensive power, although it need not be HP damage. I was thinking of going for sword+board and seeing how well I could make shield-based TWF work, but that might be a stupid idea. Reach+disruptive+step up and strike might also be an option.

CR+1 is inaccurate, because a baseline fighter with a bow still rapes PoW stuff at combat.

>No I didn't
In that case fuck off you filthy kike, nobody wants you here.

Seems like a huge risk when one area greater dispel magic can fuck your shit up.

Retard detected

>lies, lies and more lies
Just because you claim it doesn't' make it true.

>CR+1 is inaccurate, because a baseline fighter with a bow still rapes PoW stuff at combat.
Wat? How do you figure this? At all?

I want him here. Also, prove that a bow fighter can beat a PoW character, cocksucker. Especially because PoW can do ranged.

Rapid shot, manyshot, weapon training, iterative attacks, Gloves of Dueling, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Archer Fighter. Composite longbow. Sit in place, full attack every round. You will outdamage the hell out of PoW as they rely on strikes.

Could also look into Archon Style, the second feat in the chain allows you to force an attack against an adjacent ally to go against you and your AC instead. Especially good if you're protecting a caster from AoOs or readied actions.

PoW character takes the same, uses boosts to augment full attacks, and wins. There are at least two ranged disciplines.

Be a half orc war priest, use favored class bonus to grab the human one for bonus feats. As a half orc grab Sacred Tattoo for luck to saves then get fate's favored. Get a familiar somehow and make it a protector. It gives you essentially 50% more health because of constant shield another. Make it a small familiar and keep it under your armor.

Warpriests natively do self healing so that isn't a problem. AC is something that can be optimized in many ways. For now get a set of mithril full plate if you're set of TWF. You should know however that TWF is both feat and money heavy due to the need for agile weapons and TWF feats. I would suggest instead moderate Dex and grab shape changing spells to garner natural armor for AC instead of dex armor.

You realize that a PoW character can do the same thing, but then get +10 damage on every hit with a boost. There are full attacking ranged manuvers that literally are "You full attack AND do even more damage".

Literally everything you posted is available to a PoW character in addition to more things.

>rapid shot, manyshot, iterative attacks, bracers of falcon's aim, composite longbow
All can also be used by a PoWer so it's a wash
>weapon training, gloves of dueling
Alright, so an innate +6 to attacks/damage, that's one thing the fighter has over PoW. PoW also has boosts, strikes, and stances which can probably equal that, so it's a wash
>archer fighter
Replaces all instances of weapon training with not!weapon training for bows, so it doesn't count.

Do you know who I am?

I don't know how to put this, but, I'm kind of a big deal...

People know me.

I'm very important.

I have many leather bound books...and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

I also post builds.

Are you arguing for or against PoW archers being weaker than fighter archers? I honestly can not tell at this point.

>fucked up the file
of course I did.

Here is the better one. This thing shits all over any level approprate encounter, and is not even 3/4th of the damage output a POW character can deliver. The POW character also has way better defenses, skills, etc.

Knew about the orc thing, but the agile TWF is new to me. I was thinking of doing TWF with a shield, but am worried that it's just not feasable.

Self buffing with shapechanging spells is a good idea. thanks.

Quick question. Whats the easiest way of inflicting Curse of the Ages on myself?

We are just happy someone saw it.

Name him you fuck
It's the first field come on

...

Can you get a 9th level maneuver as a non full initiator ala primal disciple?

Yes. Take Advanced Study at level 17.

Yup, via advanced study or PRCs

>"So, I got my new character ready. He's an Antipaladin 2/Dual-Cursed Oracle 1/Cross-Blooded Sorcerer 1/Eldritch Scion Magus 6"
What's your reaction, /pfg/ ?

"You can't play an antipaladin."

I said Psionic Manifesters+Alchemist only for casting classes.

I would have to look at the bills and then I would still force them to take the archetype that makes them lawful evil instead.

It also depends on the player in question.

It seems the character uses some weird interactions to be horribly broken, or the player has no idea what he's doing. Either way, pic related.

Bracers of falcons aim got nerfed, nerd.

Cross-blooded sorc 1 makes me think he's either doing blasting or mind-affecting stuff. Antipaladin 2 is for Cha to saves and maybe some mind-affecting stuff. Dual-cursed oracle... more spells and/or status resistances? Magus seems to be the core. Blasting?

I'd ask what he was trying to achieve and probably suggest he focus his build, since it seems fairly spread out at the moment.