MTG Magic The Gathering Ask A Judge - Tuesday Morning Edition

Good morning boys and girls, it's time for your increasingly regularly scheduled Ask A Judge thread!

Yeah nah, hey Judge.

I just got a shite ton of pages, and 2 binders. Do I sort my stuff into Modern/Standard, Or Rares/Staple uncommmons in one folder, and Mythics, Fetches, Foils ect. in the other?

Up to you, and what your group is 'like'. Personally I sort by price- I have a binder for things worth more than 10 dollars, a binder for things between 1 and 10 dollars, and a box for bulk rares. I've seen Standard/Modern binders more than I've seen Rare/Mythic binder divisions, though.

I'm planning on taking my L1 test soon. What should I focus on to study up on? I've been told SBAs and to brush up on the JAR, but other than that is there anything i should be extra clear on?

SBAs, steps of casting a spell, the steps and phases of each turn, layer 7 (the others don't come up much at all on the L1), the JAR, the MTR, those are big ones.

If you haven't yet, I would recommend generating an L1 Practice Exam and taking that so you can see if there's any areas you need to shore up a weakness in.

Also, general test-prep advice: Be well rested and fed going into it. Take your time and don't rush. Read every question very carefully, as well as the answers- they're designed in such a way that missing or inserting a word because you assume you know the question will get you the wrong answer.

What to do when an illegal occurs (eg. dredge flashbacks dread return without mana sources with Thalia in play) and neither player catches it before say a turn or two has passed? Rollback?

So, that's something we call a Game Play Error - Game Rule Violation, or just "GRV" for short.

When we're called over for a GRV, or we catch one while watching a game, we have the option of a rewind- we back the game through every action taken SINCE the GRV, until immediately before it, so that things can happen 'right'. Whether or not we actually perform that rewind is a judgement call, based on "What will do the LEAST damage to this game- rewinding, or leaving it alone?"

In most cases, once we're into the next player's turn it's too far to rewind. It's not common to rewind through a card draw. Even within the same turn, sometimes there's just been too many actions taken based on that illegal play, and too much information gained. In a casual game, do what you want, but once "a turn or two" has passed, I'm very unlikely to rewind for any GRV.

If Arcane Melee is on the battlefield. Does it decrease the cost of the Fuse Cards from Dragon's Maze as well. For example I cast Toil/Trouble as a fuse. Would I only pay B/CCR, CCB/R, or BR?

It will reduce the cost of the spells, but it's ONE spell when fused. You're not gonna discount Toil by 2 and then Trouble by 2, you discount Toil//Trouble by 2.

It costs you 2BR. C is colorless, and this has no colorless mana cost.

Can you process a madness-card, while it's exiled, before it's being cast by the opponent?

So long as you have a way of doing it with a triggered ability on the stack, yes.

So, pic related is workable?

Absolutely.

How Madness works (presently) is that you discard the card, but you discard it into exile instead of your graveyard. Once you do, a triggered ability fires off of that and goes onto the stack, and as that trigger resolves you can pay [COST] to cast the spell. Until then, the card is in exile and free prey for Oracle of Dust, or Pull From Eternity, and then they won't be able to cast it via Madness.

Question. Multiplayer game. I have staff of nim in the graveyard. An opponent use beacon of unrest to put it on the battlefield under his control. The opponent then lose the game with the staff still on the battlefield.

What happen to the staff?

It's exiled. Once he leaves the game there's no control-changing effect to end, so it has no "previous controller" to revert to, so it just gets exiled.

Who is responsible for remembering my goblin guide trigger? Is it me? I hope it's not me.

Both players are responsible for their own triggers.

Your opponent is never responsible for your triggers.

You are responsible for remembering your own triggers, but your opponent has the OPTION of pointing out triggers that you've missed if they want those triggers to not be missed, but that doesn't mean you can just depend on them for it. Also, if you "forget" a trigger because you don't want it to happen, we are going to have an unpleasant talk that ends with you getting a Dilly Bar.

You play bear cub.

Then someone plays turn to frog targeting the bear cub.
Resolves.

Then liquimetal coating targeting what is/was the bear cub.
Resolves.

Then become immense targeting what is/was the bear cub.
Resolves.

Then twisted image targeting what is/was the bear cub.
Resolves.

Then nameless inversion targeting what is/was the bear cub.
Resolves.

Then clone targeting what is/was the bear cub.
Resolves.

Then agoraphobia on what is/was the bear cub.
Resolves.

Then aerial maneuver targeting what is/was the bear cub.
Resolves.

Now, what is the creature that is/was the bear cub and what is the clone?

If someone casts Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger targeting one of my permanents, can I counter Ulamog with Rebuff the Wicked?

Bear Cub is a 6/5 blue Artifact Creature with Flying and First Strike.

Clone does not target, and will be a vanilla Bear Cub.

Ulamog is not targeting anything because creature spells never ever target anything. Ulamog's triggered ability is targeting your permanent, and abilities aren't spells.

5/6 blue artifact creature with Flying and First Strike.

5/6 from Twisted Image?

So say an opponent's creature has Captain's Claws equipped and Murder Investigation enchanted on it. If l steal it with Act of Treason and then sacrifice it with a Nantuko Husk do the Claws go back to their side after my turn? Do the tokens created by Murder Investigation go back?

The claws never actually leave controllers. So, the claws immediately return to the controller's side of the board.

Also, the aura never switches controllers either. So, the tokens go to the controller of the aura.

>Do the tokens created by Murder Investigation go back?
Go back? they enter under the aura's controller's control, and never leave it. So your opponent gets the tokens.

You never gained control of the claws, they never moved anywhere. They were merely attached to a creature you controlled.

Correction: Investigation never gives tokens, as it falls off as soon as you gain control of the creature.

Does declaring a creature as attacking tap it immediately?
Like, if I have something that gives all creatures vigilance casted using hideaway from a windbrisk heights, are the creatures still tapped?

Does it? I thought that only applies when it resolves. And would stay on the creature afterwords regardless of owner.

Just like if you attach auras to Planeswalkers, artifacts, or lands that become creatures until end of turn, they too stay on the permenant. Am I wrong?

>Does declaring a creature as attacking tap it immediately?
Not technically immediately, but they are tapped before you get priority to cast/activate anything.

>Like, if I have something that gives all creatures vigilance casted using hideaway from a windbrisk heights, are the creatures still tapped?

Yup, you cast the spell after attackers are declared so they are tapped.

Yes. You have to give them vigilence prior to declaring them as attackers.

>I thought that only applies when it resolves
Targets need to be legal when they resolve, that's what you're thinking of. Aura abilities that specify what they can be attached to "Enchant creature you control" will fall go to the graveyard if they are attached to an illegal object (as a state based action).

>Just like if you attach auras to Planeswalkers, artifacts, or lands that become creatures until end of turn, they too stay on the permenant.

This is incorrect.

If you hadn't noticed, I've never actually played anything beyond kitchen magic. I've just assumed the equipped and aura "stick" to the creature when it moves control. Thanks for the clarification.

Second question. Would previously stolen creature go into my graveyard after being sac-ed or its owners?

Got it, thanks.
Been messing around in casual with a windbrisk/kobold deck using ultimatums and this came up because of titanic.

Then I stand corrected. Duely noted.

>Would previously stolen creature go into my graveyard after being sac-ed or its owners?

Always the Owner's.

Owners.

400.3. If an object would go to any library, graveyard, or hand other than its owner's, it goes to its owner's corresponding zone.

Lord only knows how much other shit we've been doing wrong.

Thanks guys.

No worries, that's why the thread gets made. I know my group spent like 8 years playing totally off from the actual rules before we learnt better.

Also, just incase it ever comes up amongst your friends. If you are playing a multiplayer game, and an opponent casts Oblivion Ring upon a permenant, then that player who controls Oblivion Ring dies/loses the game. The permanent that was exiled does not return to the battlefield and stays exiled. The second ability of Oblivion Ring does not trigger since it is not leaving the battlefield. It simply no longer exists in the game. This does not apply to the various other cards that share the "same" affect with Oblivion Ring. As Oblivion Ring has two different abilities that have to trigger, while all of the rest have the return part as the same ability.

Don't worry, everyone does. Even judges get it wrong ever so often. You have to remember that this is a game of convenience and most people skim over a lot of details to make the game go by faster.

Whoops, forgot to flip it. My bad.

THEY get the Ally token, because THEY still control the Claws. Investigation falls off when you steal the creature, so nobody gets those.

Yes. By the time you can use your land your guys are tapped.

That is wrong.

Owner's, always.

Dude my group spent the first 2 years of our playtime thinking you could regen a sacced creature.

Actually, a lot of people wouldn't think to flip it since it was flipped while it was still. 7/7 and a lot of people don't realize that the additions and subtractions that apply afterwords still take affect on the layer prior to the flip affect. If my wording makes since to everyone.

A lot of people think you can regen a sac'ed critter. It's a very common mistake.

Are there any online versions of MTG that have the same quality of YGOPRO? I dont get to play as often anymore and being able to just have my friends msg me for a match would be neat.

Not quite, but magic workstation might be your best bet since it's free. You'll have to learn how to update everything and add scans to the card image folders. Which they usually provide links and instructions to everything on their website.

Nah, I getcha. I know to apply the flip last, I just plain forgot.

>THEY get the Ally token, because THEY still control the Claws
>Whenever equipped creature attacks, put a 1/1 white Kor Ally creature token onto the battlefield tapped and attacking.

wait wait wait
does that mean the defending player gets an attacking token during the opponent's declare attackers step? what could it possibly attack? i am so confused right now does that mean it's a 2-way combat phase where the attacking player must also defend against the Claw's 1/1?

You do as much as you can. You get an ally token tapped. Since it's not your active combat phase, then it's not attacking.

...

They get a tapped token, since you can't possibly attack (or have attacking things) during someone else's turn.

Also, good morning everyone!

I had a weird incident occur at monday night modern last night and want to know your take.

A player was on grixis control and tapped out for cruel ultimatum, only for a spectator to realize one of the smoldering marshes he tapped for mana was actually a bloodstained mire. I get called over, ask around and it's clearly an accidental mistake, albeit one that's happened a few times. I'm able to rewind to right before the ultimatum, he cracks for a swamp and casts it properly. Grixis wins the game and match, but after the match approaches me alone. He wants to give his opponent the win because he was at 4 life and his opponent had bolt in hand - had it been caught the first time he screwed up he'd have lost a while back.

After texting with a pair of friends who are also judges, I ruled that he had submitted the 2-1 win and had to stand by it, but still wondered.

tl;dr would you let a player concede his match after turning in his match slip?

It'd be iffy. Normally I'm pretty heavily on board the "once you hand it to the scorekeeper, that's the result you submitted" train, but if we can catch it quickly enough at a 'smaller' event (as in, it won't disrupt things too much to just go up there and we don't make a habit of it) I could consider letting this one slide and 'correcting' it.

But yeah, the vast majority of the time I would say "You can concede your match even after having won it, but once you hand that signed slip in, your result is whatever's on that paper."

Alright. I just found it a really hinky ruling, because neither of the judges I asked believed it was actually something that happened, that someone would win a match and ask to have it changed to a loss.
What's more, the guy who lost wasn't even salty about it - reasoned that with better sequencing that 1 life shouldn't have mattered. It's just always awkward when players brace for things that are so much worse than what actually happens. I'm sure you have a few stories about that too.

Yeah. And it's actually in our documents what to do if someone wins a match's games and then concedes, because you totally can (I've seen it done first-hand). You just fill it out 2-1 in favor of the person who got the concession, assuming the conceder won at least one game.

Yeah, I expect so. But that's probably the single most awkward thing I've had to check on as a judge - as a player I've got plenty of awkward moments, chief among them having to give myself a game loss.

Lunch bump!

When were the various limited formats created?
When did Wizards start designing sets with limited formats in mind?

I believe that "Limited" started being a thing with Pro Tours in the mid-to-late 90s, starting with Sealed and then a weird Rochester draft before they moved to the booster draft we know today. I also think that Mirage was the first set designed with Limited in mind.

In my playgroup (when we are drinking and playing EDH, not meeting up for FNM) when a player wants to take back any action we ask him if he is really a True Wizard? Is there anything detailing what constitutes a True Wizard. Would taking back casting a Blightsteel Colossus because the smug negroid Disruptive Student would counter it be grounds for losing the title of True Wizard?

You have to remain a virgin untill your thirty in order to become a wizard. If you have a full beard of at least six inches of growth, then you are a True Wizard. After that is GreyBeard, then ultimately Grand Wizard when you discover the secret to immortality