Warmachine & Hordes General - Cygnar Bitching About B13 Edition

100 + 30 WJP is a LOT.

Just bought Scaverous, Nightmare and Commodore Cannon. I can't wait to use Commodore in Cryx with Skarre.

>I can't deal with 50, the game should be 75!
>I can't deal with 75, the game should be 100!(+28)

No not really...

The game is actually 37.5pts with on average 15 free jack points. Some stuff got more expensive some stuff got slightly cheaper.

Who wanted the game to be 75? PP pushed that idea and it failed miserably.

Maybe 85? The game is too small right now and there are still plenty of casters which are forced into taking warjacks which they never wanted in the first place. Sorscha1 has never ever wanted a warjack, but they keep pushing the concept on her. She is handicapped in the new system. There are plenty of casters that are like her in every faction. Then there are the casters who rely on a number of support elements to make up for their lack of ability to answer questions the opponent might bring to the table, they are effectively down points as well. We're going to end up with another pool of go to casters.

Why we are forced into taking warbeast and warjack is beyond me, maybe PP can't figure out how to make jacks worth playing on their own with out overshadowing everything else. It's just bad game design. It's affirmative action for robots.

Kek.

I think if they kept the warjack points lower and kept literally every other change for Mk3 people would naturally play Warjacks since they run themselves and are so cost effective now.

This is a bit ham-fisted.

t. Def 17 infantry is good for the game guy

I don't exactly think so. I think we would have seen an inevitable fall of warjacks regardless.

Remember many Warjacks/ units are now good only because they know with 100% certainty that they will be meeting many other Warjacks on the opponents side.

Theoretically, every Warcaster should be a jack caster in some format because thats literally what Warcasters are about!

Again calling it: Trample rules are unchanged or even nerfed because PP has no clue.

Only reason I said people would take jacks is that infantry, on the whole, has been lowered slightly. Lower ARM, lower DEF, less reach, less weaponmaster, etc etc. Though, even with the changed points, if WJ points were set to something equivalent to MkII, like 8-14 or so, you'd probably still see blobs of dudes.

Idk, my new scaverous list actually allows for 2 more points than in mk2.

100+ wjp is a big ass army

MK3 LEAK WHEN

Strakhov prefers Conquest over the Victor because of the emphasis on melee engagements. I want to love the AKs but they always end up so lackluster

Don't forget better AoEs.
Behemoth alone drops two fully boosted AoE 4s each turn for only 1 allocated focus

Weapon crews also got buffed

Did anything loose weaponmaster besides bane knights, great bears and satyxis raiders (under power swell)?

Well i want to proxxy it for devout if needed. And i would only pick it for Sevvy of course.
Thanks for the answer, thought.

Oh yes and what about Guardian? Any good?

Warjacks are far and away the best options for holding zones, with infantry getting so much easier to kill and jacks getting generally harder.

As far as points cost go, I think the new lower cost will be fine, so long as skews don't rear their head. Warjack skews aren't nearly as easy as people think(and I say that as running non-colossal syntherion) and other skews seem much harder to put on the table.

Mechanithralls didn't have weapon master but they can't consistently wreck jacks anymore

It's not as much about losing weapon master as it is losing the ability to reliably deliver weapon master

Mostly what said. By making stuff more vulnerable to AoE's and other tech to sweep infantry out (less tough for example) then I think we're approaching an overall healthier game state if we removed the massively high warjack points. But, as it stands, Mk3 should still be fine. I for one look foward to it.

>Sorscha1 has never ever wanted a warjack, but they keep pushing the concept on her. She is handicapped in the new system.
Yeah, how terrible that she either gets (1) a free nasty shield guard, or two less nasty ones; (2) a 1-focus commitment for 2 double-boosted long-range AOE 4s; (3) 2.5 POW 19s that she can make charge for free etc etc etc

and doing so doesn't impede her taking Sorschas 18 either. she clearly gives something to jacks. she speeds them up and helps them hit. those are both great.

Yeah, I'm thinking about Occultating them. They have even better range and attacks with Oleg, but +4" on feat turn when they should already be generally ahead of him and only have 0.5" melee, that's not super helpful (certainly helps jacks more, and reach infantry, but the 12" CTRL holds it back the most). Mostly they would make for better assault shots. His feat is definitely designed to get the alpha.

I am actually glad about B13 as someone getting into Cygnar. They were a unit that just did too much for their cost. I'm glad to see that the Captains are really useful now in some situations.

MAT 9 POW 20 on the charge with battle isn't bad, but you are certainly paying for that arc node, which is useless while engaged, so.

She's not handicapped at all. Sorcha didn't like jacks because she doesn't lie sharing focus. New jacks need less focus, and the AOEs help her ranged feat, while delivering a jack to melee also benefits from her feat.

Everybody was taking Behemoth Regardless beforehand. And for once I want to take a destroyer. In my mind the best designed classic warjack, and the one that got me in the game.

I think we are seeing an issue with mid-cost jacks.

High end jacks/ beasts (20+) have something unique and are worthwhile taking
Low End Jacks (14-) are very cheap and effective.

Its the 15-19 area that has the most "Eh?" Warjacks. Usually the ones with 1 weapon and a Gun.

Why does legion feel so eh?

I was anticipating and okay with our power casters being nerfed.

It just feels we no longer have any really good casters anymore.

>Why we are forced into taking warbeast and warjack is beyond me

Likely because it is the aim of the game to have one of either in your force.

Had been unpainted since 2003. Finally!

Legion was on the top end of exactly what MK3 was aiming to tone down, so it feels like in general tactics, rather than specific models, they lost the most.

Hordes didn't really gain anything exciting like Power Up does for Warmachine.

legion has turned from the alphstrike faction to the mistake punisher faction.

you put your heavy in 11 inches of my hellmouth? gone. commit a heavy to kill my cheap seraph? here's a carnivean with a shredder to clean up.

we aren't worse we are just different

Having the battlegroup killed is not as crippling as before. You still don't want it to happen tough

some really good legion casters include:

-Vayl1 (don't believe what people say about the feat move, it is NOT THAT BIG A DEAL)
-Thags1 (because the BB list remains)
-Abby2 (because Alpha Hunter triggered at range)
-Lyyth3 (28" assassination...)
-Lylyth2 (snipe on a stick and all the guns shooting again)
-Lylyth1 (snipe on a stick, Parasite)

Maybe it was because Jacks where (And still are) worse then beasts, on top of hordes receiving more beast support then Warmachine Has Jack Support.

If the seesaw is unbalanced, you don't take 10 pounds off, and then put 10 pounds back on again.

Spirit Bond is a pretty big deal.

Having to deal with frenzies is something I don't think hordes players are excited about though

I guess that makes sense. I know we were on the stronger side. It just feels like any positive changes were on the minute side.

My big problem I guess is I got into Legion because I wanted it to be in the alpha strike faction. I wanted to hit hard and fast, I dn't mind if my units were a little glass jawed. but now it feels like well, we aren't the ones making the first strike.

and yet we still get the alpha decently. just with different beasts than we used to. and it's less of a gimme. And the order of activation is more important: do I want the buffed Neraph to start things and not Sprint, or end them, but if he ends them, the Shredder won't be flanking, etc...

Legion is still the fastest faction in the game. Circle is the faction who lost a shitload of alpha ability

Sorscha1 +29
-Sylys -4
-Juggernaut -12
-Ruin -17
Malakov -4
-Behemoth -24
Eiryss2 -6
Harlan Versh -4
Alten Ashley -5
Kell Bailoch -5
Organ Bokur -5
Aiyana & Holt -8
Widowmaker Marksman -4
Widowmakers -5

Just a preliminary Sorsha's 18 here. Thoughts? Anything that needs to go in? I know A&H is only benefiting like 5 models, and am considering dropping them for that reason. I don't think this list needs them with Valachev, but tell me i'm wrong.

as a legion player we definitely had it too easy with fury management and all the people griping about that probably always overloaded fury management til it was a non issue.

Legion can absolutely get the alpha. it just won't be scytheans doing it. this isn't that hard.

what happened with circle? they never had much in my meta so i only know what they really do from podcasts and the internet

Lost a ton of range on teleport, lost Sprint on stuff like Ghet, lost some other movement stuff they had.

At first glance, for example, Krueger seems like he lost nothing and got upkeep removal, but that no charging friendly models bit is fucking huge for his feat.

to be clear the only thing i really knew was Lightning Strike became SELF. aside from that...I've played vs circle twice, and those were BB-level games (which Thags1 won handily I'll add. Twisted Form is an ever better Bad Blood now)

It's still a non issue for Legion.

We got slower, no real stat adjustments for the loss of targeted SG or Tenacity, our good infantry got worse while our shitty ones got slightly cheaper, and our power casters got brought down a few pegs, but I can still shit a fuck load of fury and have Shepard team or a Forsaken mop it up for it becomes an issue.

>implying shield guard, arc node and defensive strike isn't gold for p/e reznik or e/3 kreoss

Interdasting. Every list I've made is smaller.

Could I get some opnions on the ranking of Menoth casters in Mk III?

It seems like pSevvy is god tier now that Eye of Menoth is just an always on bonus, not even a spell so it can't be dispelled.

eSevvy is god tier.

Couple 75pt lists here:

Nemo 3 (+25)
Dynamo 18 pts
Gallant 17 pts
Thunderhead 20 pts
Lancer 10 pts
Stormblades + UA + 1 Storm Gunner 17 pts
Stormblade Captain 5 pts

Journeyman Warcaster 4 pts
Charger 9 pts

-----

Kara Sloan (+28)
Triumph 20 pts
2x Hunter 22 pts
2x Minutemen 18 pts
Gallant 17
Rangers 9
Full Sword Knights 13
Runewood 4

I'm kinda feeling irritated with the dumbing down of animi- 90% are self now, and even those have received a pretty significant nerf overall.

>a free nasty shield guard, or two less nasty guns

I don't ever see my self playing beast with her, there are better options for her assassination game. I didn't play her with shield guards, I didn't need them for my def 20+ caster.

>1-focus commitment for 2 double-boosted long-range AOE 4s;

It's actually 2 focus, but yes big b is probably the best route for her if not the spriggan for removing stealth. This isn't some new synergy or interaction which any long time khador player isn't already aware of.

>2.5 POW 19s that she can make charge for free etc etc etc

I'm going to need you to explain. I'm not sure what your refreshing or how it just charges forbfree. Are you referring to boundless charge that costs 2? If she is casting boundless charge she isn't casting freezing grip because she won't be able to afford the other spell she needs to back up.

They don't focus to get there, but I assure you khador jacks need more than one focus to actually do something.

can someone give me a link to the leaked faction decks?

am I the only one who is going to be taking Wish Nailer with eMagnus in every list I can?

Dat reliable calamity

You don't do that now?

I like that you are running Big B with Andy, I have been thinking of that for some time now. I had also considered using the ternion cav in this list because of how jack heavy it's become and the need for infantry removal becomes greater. Atleast that's what I am led to believe with out testing it.

Sorscha's personal jacks I'm not so sold on. How about torch or a spriggan for stealth removal? I've always wanted to run a grolar with her, but I have yet to do it.

I don't like aiyanna and holt unless you are having problems with needing magic weapons, the loss of kiss really sucks.

If you keep ruin, I'd drop eiryss2 for eiryss 1. If you you can strip all the focus or fury on tour feat turn it's all ogre.

Everyone's defensive tech got worse, not just Legion. Just like everyone's offensive tech got worse.

Meh, high-end heavy jacks are now generally in line with high-end heavy beasts.

It's just that cheap heavy jacks are *much* better than cheap heavy beasts right now.

It's to make Fury actually matter. Animi got simplier so that management got harder.

Also, it means that any new shit they get doesn't have to be balanced around a shitload of animi.

>-Thags1 (because the BB list remains)

This.

pThags/BB/spears basically lost Thags feating back a dead Blightbringer, which we (and I played the shit out of that list) can all agree was bullshit.

Spears picked up tough in exchange for losing 3 boxes. Kinda a wash. Otherwise the list is pretty much the same.

I only play eMags in bad seeds

I never needed to feat the BB back anyway

your carnivean was your target

Big B is a 1-focus commitment. 1 free from Power Up, 1 allocated = both initial shots are double boosted

this is with Juggies, and charging for free is referencing your free focus from Power Up, which I admit - you almost always want more focus on it, and sure therein is the rub.

Well, more that the good cheap heavy jacks are dramatically more killy than cheap heavy beasts

Compare the nomad to any of the satyrs

Isn't it the opposite?
The SELFing means that almost all animi are incredibly situational, and that you no longer have to manage fury across beasts that're buffing other things.

and typically didn't bring a Carn in the double spears list. feat was largely wasted frankly.

Thags1 +28
-Blightbringer -38
-Carnivean -19
Warmonger War Chief -6
Warspears + UA -20
Warspears + UA -20

Or swap the Carn for Raptors. or the Warchief for 2 spell martyrs and a succubus.

Circle is mostly unscathed. Off the top of my head:

- Druids got changed -- lost camouflage, pull and crit knockdown on their bolts, gained prowl and a 3" aoe knockdown (on hit, not on crit) spell and got cheaper.
- Shifting Stones now teleport completely within 8" instead of within 8"
- Satyrs are all weaker and cheaper
- Lightning Strike (Sprint) is RNG SELF and COST 1
- Ghetorix lost Unyielding, Ornery as an animus and warp hyper-aggressive for Spiny Growth as an animus, warp murderous, and Overtake when taken with Kromac. This is a lateral shift under most casters and a big upgrade under Kromie.
- Feral got Primal for an animus
- pMorv picked up dispel hate.
- eMorv got purification knocked down to weaker aoe spell hate, can't feat back solos, and her rerolls lost 4" of range.
- eKrueger was only really nerfed by the change to charges (i.e., his feat no longer stops them), but picked up rebuke and lightning immunity to FF in his command range (or as I call the ability, "lol, you brought Cygnar")
- Woldwatchers lost shield guard, which kinda means losing their reason to exist
- Wold Guardians picked up shield guard, which makes them pretty decent
- Woldwyrds are actually playable
- Reeves are playable. POW 8 sucks, but ROF 2 with CRA means two POW 21 shots per turn, as their UA is now *good*.
- Bradigus kinda sucks now.
- Cassius got demoted to solo, the tree is now the caster, and probably pretty good.
- Grayle seems playable
- Rotterhorns lost acceleration (and, mostly, their reason to exist)
- Blackclads lost their elemental immunities but picked up prowl. I think this is a net gain.
- Argii got "Living/undead models within 2" are base DEF 5" as an animus. Bonkers good.
- Brennos got completely overhauled but still sucks.
- The Woldwrath is *good*. Traded Spell Ward for Sacred Ward and its gun is now AOE 5 POW 15 and the aoe sticks around and zots anyone who enters.
- Sentry stones are playable.

the draw is basically that the nomad then needs caster focus, while the satyr doesn't

i'm not saying that's sufficient, but it's the logic. and hordes has always been able to go death blossom if it means the subsequent frenzies don't really matter. that's classic Abby2 strategy - run everything super hot, kill a ton, hope some of it gets killed the next turn, because who cares

Can we get a journeyman's league discussion going? a lot are starting for MKIII. What faction do you plan to take and whats your growth ideas?

Play Khador, win, that's all you need to do

2 martyrs and a succubus is my usual list

I've been thinking about only doing one unit though.

I'll have to play it out though

I hope you guys are ready for your new spam overlords.

Butcher1
Rager x2
Bererker x 4
Mad Dog x 7

Actually that's exactly what I imagined with the new rip horns, just primal their shit up and send out 3 of them to delete stuff worth more than them while you keep your feral and/or stalker back for the second wave

Circles really good at it and primal essentially necessitates it

No, because you can't have casters or other models putting animi out on beasts as much now, which makes the sting of harder fury management that much worse

That list is going to be terrible.

i'm thinking about switching a spear unit for swordsmen. you can at least get them to 16/15 before terrain

(cont)

- Ravagers are ungodly infantry hate (RNG 2 melee + Heart Eater (which now works on undead) + Overtake on minifeat), but lost AD and Powerful/Brutal Charge. This is, honestly, the Circle change I'm most upset about.
- Skinwalkers kept 8 boxes and now regenerate d3 per turn, but traded rapid strike for gang and lost pathfinder. They got a casting hate minifeat that may be useful.
- Tharn Ravager Shaman got converted to a solo, has chain lightning, an aoe tharn-only knockdown immunity power, and can make an entire model's weapons magical.
- Wilder upkeeps spells for free, and only removes 1 fury, but does it to all beasts within 3".
- Bark node got a big mobility hit (within 5" -> completely within 5" on its place), but extended the tough hate to 5" from 3"
- Fulcrum got extra range and may be able to be teleported by stones.

And that's about it. Stones going to completely within 8" and Lightning Strike going to SELF are the biggest changes. Considering how powerful Circle has been, they got off pretty easy imo (compared to Cryx and Legion, which I think are the only more powerful Mk2 factions, and Circle got a lot less attention from the nerf bat than them).

I don't like Ravagers losing Brutal Charge as it nerfed our best armor-cracking in infantry, and the new satyrs mostly seem a waste (cheap heavy jacks look good, cheap heavy beasts look crap in general), but otherwise... eh, it's ok. Circle seems to be in a good spot for Mk3.

Thing is, they're SPD5 1" reach no pathfinder. They've got pathetic threat, and they're cheap in the context of Circle but they sure as shit aren't cheap enough to piece-trade with budget heavy warjacks.

You've lost me.
If I can't use the animi, why would I need more fury management? I'm using less fury.

I typically took a Ravagore instead of the Carni, added a Shredder, and played in theme. Rarely had to feat back Blighty, but the feat being there had a protective effect on it. Without the theme and being unable to feat the BB back, I'll probably put in an Angelius or a Scythean; something I can move up aggressively and get some work out of then feat back. I liked the Ravagore in the Mk2 list, but in Mk3, I think a melee beast will work better.

Krueger not being able to charge > TK > feat is pretty big for him, I think. No more top of two feat to clear a zone and set up alphas with impunity, and no more Druids to yank a heavy close enough to murder to trade up super early.

I was thinking raptors + anyssa

but I think i'm going to pair him with lylyth1 for a bit so idk where i'd put them

the carn should probably be it, considering you can make your vanguard unit immune to fire. which is fun to just shoot one with the BB to un-jam, for no effect except putting the aura on them.

Because the models themselves want to benefit from the animi. No more casting Sprint on your Stalker before it goes in, no more putting Far Strike up on a beast using your caster, etc, etc.

Most beasts with ranged animi rarely cast it themselves.

Exactly.

As the user above said, what makes it trickier is that you can no longer offload the fury cost of the animus to another model. I ran 1-2 Stalkers in every Circle list, and I think in two years of playing Circle I had a Stalker cast its animus on itself once. Every other time it was the Wilder, caster, or the other Stalker casting it on the one that was actually going in, so it would have its full allotment of fury to use to kill shit.

Now it's cheaper, but you can't offload the fury capacity to another model.

The scary jackspam list is Amon with 8 crusaders. Synergy, +2 SPD, Pathfinder, Parry across the board, with two Enlivens to keep them safe.

Did any model retain/gained bushwhack?

Circle didn't guarantee its alphas by being speed 6 with reach, it did it by having weird out of activation movement and occasionally making terrain (which is phenomenal in mk3 since nothing except Hunter and Phantom Hunter ignores them now)

Mohsar for example will be pretty solid at satyr spam as will Cassius and pBaldur if he really felt like it. Is it necessarily going to be meta? I doubt it. Is it possible and maybe playable? Could be.