How do I extricate myself from D&D

>Ball jointed dolls

Red flag. Massive red flag.

First thing I saw too

Run. IF that chick is D&D, she probably can't catch you.

>tojiro dp with the tip busted off
jesus fuck come on i know they're not expensive but respect your tools

>Wizards of the Coast game
>being actual D&D
Pick one.

>this is what people who hate D&D actually believe happens
D&D sunk cost fallacy is a myth.

bugger fat chicks as distraction.

did hugo & jake make a video about this?

you know it

>Shit fuck! Her eyes!
>I should not have expanded the thumbnail!
>Fuck! The lifeless vacuum of her eyes have shredded my soul!
FUCKING GINGER FATTIES!!

You start by playing some actual roleplaying games.

>have game group
>great guys (and girl)
>one owns every (fairly certain) book to ever be published of 3.5e dnd
>It's all we play
I just want to try Numenera...I like the possibilities

When you've sunk months and hundreds of dollars into owning every splat 3.PF ever released, you tend to be wary to throw it all away just to roll the die (pun unintended) with a system you've never tried before.

Is that a Drizzt doll?

>chick
I wouldn't be so sure of that, user...

If you can find me someone who owns every 3.PF splat, I'll bother to try to take the rest of your silliness seriously.

Until then, I'll just have to roll up all your ideas as "guy who tries to rationalize his irrational hate".
You don't like popular things. That's all that compels you and your ilk to shitpost all day.

I know at least three people who have most, if not all, of the available splats for 3.5 and have been playing for at least a decade.

It's a hard nut to crack in getting someone that invested in a game to give another game a try, you see the same thing with LoLfags who spend $10,000+ on the same account only to lose it and spend another $10,000 amassing the same bullshit.

Numenera looks great to me too. My players' addiction is Shadowrun.

You're talking about a tiny minority as if it were anything except a tiny minority.

You might as well say that all, or even most, LoLfags spend $20,000+ on the game.

Does that put it in perspective how ridiculous you sound?

Most LoLfags do end up spending that much money on their account.

Is it really that difficult to imagine that people will spend that much money on garbage when we live in an age where people spend IRL dosh on cash shop items, mobile apps, and DLC?

so you have no absolutely no grasp of hyperbole at all, do you? like him I know a couple people who've spent quite a bit of money on the books, so want to actually use them

I'm surprised no one has complained about the 4e DM guide yet.

Call of Cthulhu

So? It's shit living off its big name either way

Oh god she's playing 4e...

This is because 4e is actually good, and the DM's guide for it was god tier

oh wait, there's always one

Is that a dude? jesus.

As someone who played 4e for a decent period of time before switching to 3.5e, I can say that it is certainly slimmed down and simplified from previous editions. It's for people who want D&D to be more like a video game, and I'm not saying I don't like video games, I do, but their place is NOT in D&D.

... What?

That's a new complaint I've totally never heard.

>le 4e is vidya meme

I'd rather play a "video game" where I can make a character that isn't a dead weight just because I don't have months of experience with the system than a "tabletop game" where I have to go on forums just to build a mediocre Fighter.

Complaints don't have to be original to be valid, can you actually deny it or just say I'm not being original enough?

Then play a video game, don't bring that simple shit into D&D, either commit to actually trying or don't.

Are you that same moron from a week ago who did nothing but suck 3.PF's dick while shitting on 4e?

Are you "arguing in bad faith" guy?

3.PF is the only game that I've played that requires that much effort just to build a mediocre character.

I mean, I've never even heard of "trap options" or "ivory tower design" until I was introduced to 3.PF and did some research into building a character that wasn't a glorified NPC class.

No. And that was a bad argument, I'll admit that people on my side can be stupid, I'm not petty.

It takes an hour to build a level one character if you know what you're doing, about 10 minutes for each level up after that, if you put any amount of effort into it whatsoever, you'd have no trouble.

That's the thing though.

It takes roughly an hour...if you know what you're doing.

If you're a new player, it can take 2 hours.

If you're a GM running a 3.PF with entirely new players, it can take 4 hours.

If you're a GM running a 3.PF with entirely new players and you're the only one with a book, it can take an entire session just for everyone to build a basic character.

The amount of feats, spells, equipment, etc. that the game throws at you at level 1 is pretty daunting, especially for new people who have no idea how to build a character.

Also, the time increases if you want each player to be around the same level of optimization.

The only games I've played that require around the same amount of time in character creation is ShadowRun 5e and Deathwatch.

I recognize hyperbole, that's why I'm tired of the story people tell of D&D putting a gun against players' heads and demanding they never play any other game.

It's this tedious myth that people who don't like the game tell each other in order to try and rationalize all the shitposting they do, as if they're "waking up sheeple" instead of just bitching about what's popular.

Is one session really that long though? And in any game the DM should NEVER be the only veteran, that's just dumb, at least one player should also be experienced. And sure, it's daunting... for about 5 sessions, then you understand the basics at least, you're having fun, and most importantly, you're not sacrificing depth for ease.

Jesus Spellcasting Christ, if this starts another retarded caster supremacy argument I am going to force every mage in every game I run from now until the end of time to justify their magic through muscles or be limited to a spell list of Prestidigitation and nothing else.

OK yes, casters are more powerful in 3.X, and that sucks balancing wise, but think about it logically, fighters are limited by what a human (or whatever they are) can physically achieve, casters aren't, because they have magic, yes, it should be balanced more, but it's one issue compared to a sea of issues in 4e.

dalhousie

Fuck you, this is a game where you face off against things that shouldn't even exist as a matter of course.
It'd be stupid if fighters -couldn't- expect to survive getting up in a dragon's face.

Also what the fuck are the issues with 4e besides the early Monster Manuals being a bit whack and a couple of feats that really should be given out for free?

A fighter can survive perfectly fine, they just can't become as insanely powerful at higher levels as casters can.

And that's a problem with the system.
If the wizard can just immediately end a fight, why is he even bothering to travel with some putz in shiny plate?

>Is one session really that long though?

Assuming a six hour session, yes, it is quite a long time just to build characters.

For reference, most games will only take around 10-30 minutes for build a character and most of the time, there isn't really a "wrong" way to build someone since most games don't have trap options that cripple your character.

>in any game the DM should NEVER be the only veteran, that's just dumb, at least one player should also be experienced.

Most people don't have that kind of luxury, especially in places where the number of GM's can be counted on one hand.

Sometimes, people want to get their friends into their hobby and they're the only ones with the books to run something.

Even then, the game shouldn't necessarily be so complicated that it makes so much time, effort, and commitment just to understand why something like "+5 HP" or "+2 to grappling" is a bad idea.

>you're not sacrificing depth for ease.

That's the thing, if a game is too complex, then the players won't see that depth.

Especially if the game is designed players for not knowing how to play the game properly.

The fact that Casters have no rules and can break the universe multiple times per day is specifically a D&D conceit (especially 3.PF). The idea that martials never get to have anything fun to do because "they're limited to human physics" despite being able to consistently survive AND WALK AWAY FROM A FALL AT TERMINAL VELOCITY is also specifically a D&D conceit.

One way I like to think of balance is this. Imagine a high level classic D&D party (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, and Cleric) has to scale a sheer cliff.

In 3.PF, the answer is "one of the mages casts a spell and the martials get carried along like shitty babies".

In a more balanced game, the answer might be "The Fighter jumps super high, the Rogue uses grappling hooks and other neat tools to scramble up the wall at a break neck pace, the Wizard casts Fly and the Cleric casts Stone Shape to make an elevator".

THAT is the kind of thing that I and many others want when we talk about game balance. Everyone has options and nobody ends up being the team paper-weight.

>Assuming a 6 hour session

If you're playing 6 hour sessions, then it most certainly won't take the whole time, if both the DM and one of the players have any experience whatsoever and have a book, and assuming a 4 person pary, then it will take around 4 hours at most

>10-30 minutes for build a character

Assuming a 4 person party, that's anywhere from 40 minutes to 2 hours

So let me get this straight.

The game designers are going to design 11 classes.

6 Martials (Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian), 3 Full casters (Wizard, Cleric, Druid), and 2 spontaneous casters (Sorcerer and Bard).

They're going to make 50 or so feats and over 200 spells for the PHB.

They're going to give each weapon their own stats and properties.

And all so that anyone who didn't pick the three classes worth a shit can end encounters in one hit while making things almost impossible for their martial counterparts to keep up?

That raises two questions.

1) Why even have martials if every encounter can be solved in one turn with one spell?
2) Why are Martials limited by what fat losers believe an ordinary person is capable of doing just because they use weapons rather than casting spells?

You'd think a class that was modeled after mythological figures like Gilgemesh and Hercules would be capable of doing more than straight damage when casters can deal straight damage and more.

>arguing about which of two turds stinks less

Waste of time.

Why does this shit always come up whenever we have a D&D thread?

You act as if the divide is much bigger than it is, yes, martials are weaker than casters at higher levels, but at lower levels, when casters are absolute shite, martials kick their ass, and even at higher levels martials can still go head to head in nonmagical combat with difficult creatures better than a caster could ever hope to do, even if the caster was several levels higher.

Oh, so you're a next-level shitposter.

Please, can you just adopt a tripcode already?

Because your chart is stupid and there are plenty of stupid people who like to argue.

You're the worst of the idiots though.

I'm but to be honest, my main problem with 4e is the set up of the powers. Vancian casting is retarded and I'd rather have seen it leave the system entirely than spread like a cancer to every single class. The separation of Powers into At Will, Encounter, and Dailies is just extra retarded - I've not gone through every single power, so I'm not going to touch on the redundancy I hear often. Additionally, the existence of Utility powers makes it seem just straight up wrong to use an At Will/Encounter/Daily in non-combat, which might be where the "combat and non-combat are completely different" complaint comes from.

Had they simply given each character a pool of Stamina or Mana or Divine Favor or whatever and limited powers to where a given player would start with, say, 4 and end at max level with, say, 16, I'd probably love 4e for high power fantasy bullshit.

The only thing holding back casters at low levels is that they only have access to like two level 1 spells + cantrips.

There are still plenty of level 1 spells that will end encounters in one hit, it's just that they only can be used twice per day and only if the wizard prepared it.

Exactly, which means at lower levels casters basically can only use their decent attacks on difficult monsters, they're no use if a bunch of kobolds attack, because fuck if they're going to use my only prepared use of shocking grasp on a kobold, and they don't have and AOE spells yet, they're only useful when the big stuff comes along.

>Wizard casts Color Spray
>The Fighter doesn't get to fight the big smelly Goblin chieftain because he's seeing rainbows now
>The Rogue's elaborate sneak attack is now completely unnecessary and frankly silly
>The Barbarian got angry for nothing
>Everyone starts doing coup de grace on the goblins with a sad unsatisfied look on their face
>Color Spray starts wearing off
>Fighter, Rogue, and Barbarian excitedly ready themselves for some modicum of a fight
>No worries, Wizzy's got it, he casts Sleep
>They go back to doing coup de gras

But yeah, Martials are definitely way better at low levels.

>because fuck if they're going to use my only prepared use of shocking grasp on a kobold

>preparing shocking grasp on a wizard at level 1

Actually, sleep/color spray is EXACTLY for fucking gobbos. At low levels a single hit can end you/the fighter, so the faster you disable a large number of enemies, the safer you are.

As a bonus, color spray also fucks slightly tougher (up to 3HD IIRC) enemies, so it's not without worth then either.

>I recognize hyperbole
>that's why I'm tired of the story people tell of D&D putting a gun against players' heads and demanding they never play any other game.

I don't think you actually recognize hyperbole...

The thing is though, there are in fact level 1 SoL spells that have an AoE effect.

IIRC, sleep hits in a 10ft. radius, color spray affects anything with low HD, and even then, think about how wonky the balance is.

Either you're playing a class that has fun now or you're playing a class tha thas fun later.

And even the "has fun later" thing is debatable since a well placed spell negates all the time and planning that the martials put into taking out the boss only to have to deal with the weenies that die in one hit.

If you're saying fighters can only do what's physically possible, they can't fight dragons. If you agree that they can, then they're no longer constrained to what's physically possible.

Alternatively, explain how a human can physically achieve surviving falling from terminal velocity onto concrete.

Casters aren't bad in any way at low levels in anything after 3.

Not only that, but they can walk away to boot.

First of all color spray has a material component, it's not exactly expensive but it keeps a caster from spamming it, Same for sleep. But yes, some spells are broken even at lower levels, but of course casters can't use them much because they don't have many spells available per day that early, and still have to save their spells for difficult situations.

>Wizard casts colour spray
If even one goblin passes his save he's getting stabbed next turn. And who the hell casts SoD spells on their own party members?
>No worries, Wizzy's got it, he casts Sleep
1 round casting time, so wizard *starts* casting sleep, then gets javelin'd and disrupted before he finishes casting it next turn. Also 4 hd limit and doesn't work if any of the goblins are more than 20 ft apart.

WELL FUNNY YOU SHOULD MENTION MATERIAL COMPONENTS, GUESS WHAT A CHEAP PIECE OF GEAR ALLOWS MAGES TO DO? IGNORE MATERIAL COMPONENTS! HOW'S THEM APPLES?

OK, that's fair, but that was just a small point, the bigger point is that they have few spells available at lower levels.

To be fair though, a wizard gets 2, if not 3 spells per day at first level that have a major effect on low level combats. While they do get overblown (colour spray especially), casters do have plenty of spells to (potentially) contribute massively for 3 of the 4 expected fights a day.

That's assuming they use none of their spells in noncombat encounters, so no charm person, no disguise self, etc.

True, but the classic low level dungeon crawl normally doesn't involve noncombat encounters that demand low level spells. Casting either of those at level 1 is a fool's move anyway.

Why is his chart stupid, it makes perfect sense. In a realistic setting it should be dangerous for mere mortals to call on the powers of magic. And the limits of human beings(or any other race) are completely up to the imagination in a fantastical setting, not only that, high level player characters should be able to break the limits of what mortals should be able to do. Mixing both fantastical and realistic just makes for a shitty setting.

>Color Spray
The Goblins are likely not making their saving throws because they're low level Goblins, they're practically guaranteed to have shit Will saves. The party doesn't either, but then, if you're playing on a grid, why not cast it anyway? The Goblins are gonna stay down for a while anyway, your party members won't die from it, and all a coup de gras requires is six seconds and a dagger.

>Stab
Oh well golly gee looks like the Wizard managed to pass his concentrate check because he decided to take some extra Con to offset his piss poor HP. Oh yeah, and the javelin doesn't kill him either because he got extra HP. Whoops. By the time the martials have gotten to the goblin it's already asleep.

Games don't solely consist of dungeon crawls anymore, there's plenty of things that can happen in towns or on the way to the dungeon that require non combat spells, even at low level.

And if there are any social encounters, the Wizard can just bypass those silly "skill checks" the Rogue wanted to do to instantly, effortlessly, and consequencelessly solve the encounter.

Let's assume a int 18, con 14 wizard, being generous. That means a goblin has a 1/4 chance of passing, so not a guaranteed KO by any means, especially if you're talking about using it on an entire encounter, in which case odds are one stays up.

And on the sleep front, wizard starts casting, then gets javelin'd for 1d4 damage, call it 2. Wizard has a +6 concentration check, so against DC 12 he has a 1/4 chance of failing.

Both of those are reasonably good odds for the wizard, but it'd dumb as hell to say 'oh they're all guaranteed to fail and the wizard's always guaranteed to pass', because you're not talking about 1 goblin, you're saying the wizard's taking down entire encounters with single spells. He isn't.

Also from an in-character PoV, wizard's taking a 1/4 chance of getting stabbed (possibly lots) by colour spraying and almost guaranteed by casting sleep. A lot of people wouldn't take those odds.

He's right you know.

If you don't like, play another game that isn't DnD.

Another feat tree in the Dragon magazine basically has Weapon Focus/Expertise/whatever+++, so just giving your players one of these is the best choice. No, it does not appear in the character builder.

Essentials classes work with 4e classes, but are not overly friendly. An Essentials class can go a lot longer without needing an Extended rest and while they don't do as much damage compared to 4e classes with dailies and encounters popping, they'll be a higher baseline in the long run.

The question is: who likes such over the top bullshit?

People don't like normal adventurers having completely over-the-top capabilities just to be on par with casters.

If the game wasn't called Dungeons & Dragons no one would bother to defend this shitfest of a rules system.

The idea of a barbarian getting angry and killing sleeping goblins for sleeping amuses me.

Considering that markets opened up for them, enough people.

If you want to play a game where casters are the best at everything, why not go to Ars Magica (which explicitly, 100% about mages and magic) rather than expecting a high fantasy game with mixed martial and magical characters to fuck over at least half of the possible character concepts?

Well I do. If its a clearly fantastical setting its fun for higher level player characters to have over the top capability's to match the setting and the monsters.

I think I'd be more okay with shadowrun than 3.5, but that's a preference in RP style. Either way hope you get a chance to try out the 9th World friend

Yeah, because of the brand. That's all there is to it.

Most D&D players I know like mid-level best.

>not getting killed by a bunch of ducks
>not being a demi-god having to travel the planes to find a worthy opppnent

These mid-levels coincidentally resemble classical hero tales the most. Outside of those D&D is complete crap. Within this range of levels, it's sufferable.

The 4e DMG is literally the weakest of the core books, and is far from God tier unless you are a 4e fan boy.

To take it further, the game was slow and boring until MM3 so only the PHB was truly a great book; and even then it has 4e artwork.

>I have never read the DMG
>what are skill challenges
>what is the random dungeon generator
>what is scaling and customising NPCs and monsters
>what is generally decent advice

the skill challenges are broken as written.
they're functionally the dm telling the players what is supposed to happen, and the book encourages you to reward out of the box thinking with higher DC's, punishing creativity.

scaling the difficulty up by a few points gives xp rewards and adjusted dc's wildly off from where they're supposed to be according to the way the book recommends you adjust them.

random dungeons are just that, random, with little forethought put into them. if your dungeons are just random bunches of rooms that can be replicated by random dice rolling you might want to revisit adventure design school. if you want the mechanics of the game and the context of the story the players are telling with their characters to mesh you want to design environments by hand.

scaling and customizing npcs and monsters is a thing you do in every edition of D&D. you want to make a level 5 npc in 3.pf? average the hit dice, use the given stat array, and pick 1 skill for each point the receive per level (ie 5+int/lvl points = 5+int skill). hose skills are at max rank. in previous editions it was even easier because there was less bookkeeping in general with the proficiency/whatever you want way to doing things.

the advice wavers from place to place and is highly subjective based on dm style. moderately decent advice could be said about any dmg from any edition.

but why am i even bothering. 4e fans never want to hear criticisms. edition fans in general never fucking want to hear criticisms.

Things unique to 4e that are garbage:
>skill challenges

Thing in all DMGs:
>everything else in your post