Though She didn't really anything wrong

Or someone could just be religious, and shitting. See Frollo as a solid example.

Protagonist-Centered Morality.

Have the average church members be well-meaning, and perhaps even have the church do good deeds, just with a self-interested person in charge. Bonus points if the church has a history of good leaders in the past and an internal conflict against the BBEG in control, to make it less of a monolithic evil institution.

You could also have a church schism with one more extremist sect and one more moderate one.

Have the religion itself be benevolent and good, but the church corrupt and degenerate.
Think Spanish Inquisition, especially Torqeumada.

These Anons are on the right track. Fedora only comes in to play when you forget to make the depiction believable.

make one a corrupt oppressive state the protects rapists murderers and sadists in the name of god.

make one a bunch of catoonishly evil jackasses whose jackassery has fucked the world over in the past, and make the leaders of the church fully intent on doing it again

and then make the third church a mind policing theocracy to whom the very concept of personal freedom is anathema

there, now you've got three campaigns worth of evil from one shitty ass sidequest

So base it off of Islam. With a touch of catholicism.

Good advice here.
Also remember that if the church is going to do extremely brutal acts it also must have some extreme justifications for these acts.

Could make it a cult which has predicted many catastrophes and assassinations of powerful people gaining popularity this way, but it is revealed that they have actually purposefully done these to gain attraction and also to frame their enemies.

How their God definitely, factually exist.

This.

Op could just pick a nasty medieval pope

On top of all of the suggestions involving corrupt heads of decent organizations or corrupt organizations serving decent deities, it's not like fantasy settings have ever lacked genuinely evil gods for people to serve. Thulsa Doom is the legitimate head of an evil religion serving an evil snake god, and he's a damn fine BBEG. The way to avoid being a "fedora" is to not play with idiots who think that's a useful criticism.

Have the churches plan be ultimately benevolent, but disastrous under the circumstances.

Like, the world is ending. The way in which the world is ending has enough superficial similarities to the end of days described in the holy texts, and the church declares that the end times have begun and that preparations must be taken to save as many souls as possible.

The army of the church has taken possession of a number of artifacts that they plan on using in a ritual to ensure the safe passage of the faithful to the promised land, one of which is unfortunately an artifact that other sages believe could be used to instead avert the apocalypse entirely if only it could be used properly for that purpose.

Put the party in a position where they have reason to believe that the world can yet be saved from oblivion, and the church in a position where they believe that the end is already written, all they can do is save as many as they can from the abyss that follows the end of the world.

Both think they are doing the right thing, but their goals are mutually exclusive because of the opportunity cost. If the church succeeds, millions of people not under the protection of the ritual still die. If the party fails, only a handful of people can be saved instead of all the faithful.

Make it so the bad guy isn't in charge of the religion but have many good for the good god types that aren't interested in taking charge.

They're the BBEG because they're not the legitimate leaders of that religion (at least according to the good guys). Maybe there's an actual valid and good clergy in the PCs side. Maybe the good guys are like lutherans and against having an official priest class and an organized church, but are even more religiously fanatic than the BBEG.

Plot twist: the moderate sect is the BBEG.

Make them realistic.

Have a throwback. Do what the modern catholic church did and have your ingame religion start of more violentish and elitist and as time went on it modernised itself to be less polarizing and more open and accepting to maintain face and numbers.
Now have branch/person who wants it all to go back to crusadeering, inquisitry, and the like saying original coke is THE best and "Original" coke is shit.

Yes they need the moderates to win out because extremists tend to push people away and they want as many as possible in their sphere of influence.

OP asked how to do BBEGs without tipping fedoras

Three replies in and we're already tipping fedoras. Shamefur.

Make sure there are also good members of that faith. Make it a corrupt section of the main church, or a splinter cult.

That way its less 'Religion is evil' and more 'Religious people can be evil', which is much less fedora.

The goal should be saving the faith from the evil trying to overtake it, rather than toppling the church because its bad.

>portraying any religion as having dangerous fanatics is fedora tier

The term has officially lost all meaning now.

Look, OP, don't even consider this. People who scream "fedora!" will scream it over the smallest thing possible. There's no pleasing these people.

>The term has officially lost all meaning now.
>portraying an entire religion as evil and oppressive, with no mitigating factors
>fronting the conversion by the sword lie
Yes, user, that is fedora tier, and you clearly saw words that didn't exist.

>portraying an entire religion as evil and oppressive,
Does this make /pol/lacks fedora?

Basically.

Make the religion actually important to the setting's society to avoid descend into chaos. Make it clear it would be much worse without it. Make it clear the BBEG is very aware of that. Yet he pushes it way too far.

People need the comfort of the faith when they have nothing else and taking this from them would be cruel. Maybe a lot of the kingdom's structure also relies on the church and can't really be replaced easily. Maybe the church is what united otherwise dozens of would be warring factions. Maybe the church's presence is a voice for reason and piece and good behavior. Or all of those.

But the BBEG, being a honest believer, see that all those perks are only a proof of how fundamental their Faith is to the world and wants to forcefully hunt down dissidents and heretics, round them up, lock them.

Alternatively...He's not a believer and just wants the church ranks for power. He will trample her adversaries, murder, lie and cheat his way to the top. He will become more powerful than the king, become a kingmaker deposing monarchs and calling lords to the inquisition. Only the PCs know of his true face and he's otherwise loved by the people, so they must be the ones to stop him without destroying the system that sustains the kingdom.

OR

BBEG Is genuinely good priest guy who wants waht's best for everyone but PCs have invested interests in the status quo he challengs, a la High Sparrow.

All of those are good reasons without militant atheism, which i think is what you mean by Fedora Tipping.

>all of those things not being perfectly reasonable in a fantasy setting.

You act like pulpy adventurers taking down sinister priests of evil and voracious deities is a direct attack on your Lord and Saviour. Do you think Vecna is supposed to be a stand-in for Christ because they both came back from the dead?

Easy. For much of history ecclesiastical or theological power carried with it lay political power. Just have the local Bishop or the equivalent be the ruler of the local area as well and make him a complete scheming dick head; throw in some priests who hate him due to his actions and harsh treatment of clergy who fall out of line of him and you're set.

>mentions nothing about setting
>implying D&D, as that is the only game out there
user, stop it, you've already been called out, now you are just making yourself look stupid with baseless assumptions and hyperbole.

She did a couple of things wrong.
She was stupid and short-sighted for one, and made her plan eye-blisteringly obvious to anyone paying the slightest bit of attention.

I had this go on once:

>Players are in a game where the known world consists of a large Byzantine/HRE style empire.
>Multitude of nobles who make up various regional politics, all with their own agenda.
>Emperor is responsible for defending the empire from external threats, but his power is pretty anemic when dealing with internal struggles.
>Theocracy rules alongside nobles and emperor, they have draconian rules but do a lot of good to keep the power of nobles in check.
>Players are basically in a three way between several factions all with their own agenda.

The players wound up opposed to the church pretty much for the majority of the campaign even though the church wasn't really in the wrong (Nobody really was, it was all power games anyway). I had sort of wrote some notes expecting the players to either support the emperor for centralization, the nobles for their rights, or the church to install a theocracy. They wound up leading a popular revolt and fracturing the north half the empire off into a republic, so I had to dance pretty fast in the last few sessions.

That's actually one of the most believable ways since it happens a lot in any organization. Anytime some group gets going and actually doing good, it attracts powermongers who wind up subverting it. Doesn't matter if it's a civil, religious, or private organization.

I'm not even that user, and fuck you, Vecna was just an example.

>Mentions nothing about setting
means that genuinely evil gods are as possible as anything else, yet every time this topic comes up people act like the only thing anybody could be talking about is knock-off Christianity.

Just don't demonize every member of the religion, make it clear that the BBEG and his followers that you're fighting are a small sect of the church.

1. The church is acting on wrong information.
2. Some people inside the church abuse the organization for their own gain. Most don't.
3. The church imposes its will on others, forcing them to behave in ways they don't want to.

So basically every religion ever.

see
Also, nowhere in OP did it mention anything multiple religions, gods or anything of the sort, and if you have multiple religions representing different things, then "fedora" isn't an accusation that can be lobbed.
tl;dr You are idiots who can't into reading comprehension and decided to sperg about D&D.
Stop it, you both (thanks for the tip) look stupid.

I usually dislike people who have a hard on for 'medieval democracy' and are always making non plutocratic republics when playing political games. Sometimes, if it's a small city state type it's cool, but country wide republic just don't work well without the commonplace communication and travel means and widespread literacy to the middle class...And when you have those, a lot of the medieval things fell out already.
But to each his own, I'd tried to make one of my fellow player's king and then settle for being his spymaster.

I don't know, the Ecclesiarchy in WH40k is pretty ideal for a BBEG. It's an oppressive, monolithic entity that is zealous and ruthless, and far removed from the Emperor's ideology.

I explored a similar situation with a player's character, who swore service to the God (in this case it was a Goddess) rather than the Church, which frequently caused them to butt heads. Things came to a head when the Goddess pulled a "This is my good and true servant, with whom I am pleased" and they were charged with witchcraft and heresy.

It's not hard to make a religion full of assholes.

Instead of
>be good to thy neighbor
>love thy parents
>be charitable to the poor
>hard work begets a healthy mind

Try
>slay the infidels
>sacrifice infidel children to your bizarre owl god at the vernal equinox
>give to the poor (what you steal from the infidels)
>enslave infidels to work your fields

If you're worried about being fedora, make a chill religion to juxtapose against the asshole religion.

>criticise not!Christianity
>not be full fedoracore

Pick 1

"Fedora" isn't accusation that should be lobbed in the first place, it's a moronic buzzword that people use at the slightest hint of religion-- any religion, including fictional ones that have no resemblance to any actual region-- MIGHT not be 100% on the up-and-up.

You don't need to have multiple religions in your setting for one of them to be actually evil because your setting is a work of fiction that does not actually constitute a commentary on the real world unless that's specifically what you're going for.

That's why I wasn't really prepared for it, but it's what the players wanted, and they worked to set up it. It wound up pushing the setting forward a bit in technology to achieve it.

I guess I should've saw it coming, all three of the others had notable flaws along their systems, so it only makes sense that a group of idealistic players would try and create their own system. I didn't bother describing difficulties of it with them because really, if they're happy and I don't need a plothook to continue, that's good enough for me.

Looking back, had everyone not wanted to move on to something else, it probably would've made a good place to start from. Fledgling republic trying to rule with the consent of the people falling prey to limitations of communication, internal power struggles, wild tribes just on the boarders, and an empire that still refuses to recognize your legitimacy on the other side could be a great setup for making players make some hard decisions rather than just saying everything cool now.

Make it clear they have deviated from the intentions of their faith and the church at large. They are singular evils tainting an otherwise benevolent/neutral entity with their vices. It would be helpful to create NPCs operating fully in accordance to their faith to provide contrast.

Is it fedora tippy if i hate the idea every successful religious organization has to be nice and free rather than ironhanded and zealotist?

>portraying an entire religion as evil and oppressive, with no mitigating factors

Not what was said at all.

Doesn't say the entire religion has to be evil. Doesn't say there are no mitigating factors. Simply says that this hypothetical fictional church could be doing these bad things.

Stop projecting, you stupid faggot. Fantasy religions are not an attack on whatever faith you feel is being attacked. You're creating an argument against your own position out of some existing, background level of butthurt existing in your own brain, so you have an excuse to screech at people on a cambodian fishing periodical.

Also, do you really think conversion by the sword has literally never happened? Ever? If you do, you're atrociously naive.

So something more like Menoth? They'll help you, but only if you're part of their religion.

It's easy as fuck:
Just make them understandable. Have them fully believing that they're doing what they're doing because it's the right thing, and if it's something distasteful have them acknowledge that and maybe even feel slightly conflicted about it, but still forcing themselves to do it.

Yes, of course.

Making a fictional religion that authorizes things we find morally objectionable today might trigger some poor theists. Microaggression is always wrong and always everywhere user, and you must be vigilant of it. Otherwise you're oppressing people with your giant fedora.

Sure. Menites are great.

Hell, the Retribution are a good example of religious zealots.

But you shouldn't feel pressured to make every fantasy religion have a warm and cuddly side simply because it might make a few idiots assluminous. Would you consider something like the Temple of Khaine in WHFB a no-go?

Sometimes evil gods are fine. They're a classic trope of fantasy fiction, for fucks' sake.

>if you have multiple religions representing different things, then "fedora" isn't an accusation that can be lobbed.

You mean like in real life?

Have them steal your God.

Imagine you're a villager in Mesopotamia or whatever and you got this really great idol you pray to every day for good luck and bountiful harvest and large foreheads or whatever dumb bullshit you like. Then all of a sudden a bunch of Assyrians show up at your door, kick over your cows and steal your bronze idol.

You believe in the same pantheon of gods and everything but those niggers are fucking jerks who took YOUR god. What the hell are you gonna do now? You gotta get that shit back before they drape THEIR god's underwear on it or something.

Don't make it really fucking blantant Not!Christianity/Islam that can only be defeated with the power of SCIENCE!

What causes trillby's getting tipped left and right is presenting a shitty caricature of faith that goes out of it's way to shit all over simple reason or science 'becuz thats what relijun does, guiz!'

If you want an example of an evil religious organization done right it's the Ecclesiarchy from 40k. They're corrupt at every fucking level and bring down the hammer on even the smallest whisper of out-of-line thinking, but you know why it works? Because when they aren't assholes warp demons happen. They have a 150% justified reason to be the paranoid assholes they are and that's because Chaos is fucking invasive. The second they let up is the second something really fucking evil shows up and kills everyone.

tl;dr give them a good reason to be assholes. Even if they're overreacting or misinformed they need to have a solid line of thinking that has gotten them to this point. Having them arbitrarily be a bunch of scripture-spouting robots is what will get you into trouble.

The point of the Ecclesiarchy is that they're making everything worse, though.

That's the point of the IoM in general. Remember, these organizations were created by a bunch of anti-religious, anti-establishment Brits with a hate on for Maggie Thatcher. The Ecclesiarchy ignorance and brutality is not meant to be entirely justified.

you can't since at this point the slightest criticism of fundamentalist religion or acknowledging it can ever be wrong about anything is "tipping your fedora"

*tips fedora*

*tips fedora*

*tips menorah*

Maybe the BBEG is trying to spread their belief by force and it's up to the PCs to halt this tyranny by wrecking everything in sight.

*shakes senora*
youtu.be/fZR3ZfesIIw

Look, man, if you're trying to make sure no one on Veeky Forums will ever criticize you, that's impossible. This place is swarming with bitter contrarians whose main form of communication is half understood memes. No matter what you say, there will be at least one guy out there who'll make an effort to insult you over it.

It's only when there's a whole heap of angry memes and no one interested in your ideas that it's a good indication your ideas are shit.

I'd play as Gustav II Adolph. Sounds pretty fucking badass.

have some fedora show up and also be miserable bastards.