MTG Legcy General

Decks only you think are good edition

This is what i'll be playing for the forseeable future. tappedout.net/mtg-decks/13-03-16-ddft/

Other urls found in this thread:

tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-06-16-budget-goblins/
magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gppra16/top-100-legacy-metagame-grand-prix-prague-2016-06-12
mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-turbo-depths-24655#paper
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

I love playing Painter. A ton of tricks, prison elements and cool cards makes for a hell of a fun deck.

Unfortunately, it has a bad Miracles matchup

D&T master race here

I was really hoping for an Imperial Recruiter reprint to make it easier to buy a Painter deck.

Hello Brother.

#belchercult

The odds of FoW in a keepable hand is about 1/3, you'd always take those odds in a casino. Also Xantid Swam when the bolts and swords are out is always kekkelicious.

Doomsday OP here. I've played a bit of belcher too, although I was always drawn to the no-land version.

I play ANT and I've always been intrigued by DDFT.

Is there any reason to play doomsday over ANT? What are its strengths and weaknesses?

why do legacy players post tiny ass cards?
baka desu senpai

Miracles player here. The thought of a Top or Counterbalance ban keeps me awake at night so I've been picking up the pieces to Jeskai Stoneblade in case the banlist isn't good to me. Is the deck even worth running or should I cut my losses if something gets the axe?

Consider this: If either piece gets the axe you still have 8 blue fetches,4 Forces and 5 duals. You can find something to build.

I personally do not believe that Stoneblade is a good archetype anymore, but UWR might not be too bad.

Its a good thought experiment, and lets you see some less taken lines in ANT.

Its generally slower and can play through more maindeck hate, but it is significantly slower. I do not see a reason to run it over ANT, unless you want to look like LL Coolkid

I agree that stoneblade isn't quite as good as it was a few years ago, but I'm not sure what else is playable in those colors if miracles is banned. I just don't want Wizards to hurt my baby.

You don't need to stay in color. Trade your Tundra's for Show and Tell's and build Sneak and Show.

Most of the deck still retains its value, apart from counterbalance. You can trade into a delver deck or into a combo deck. Or try to build miracles without counterbalance, maybe going Esper and adding more win conditions.

While this guyIs right that it tends to be a bit slower, it'it's completely false to say that it helps you see "less taken ANT lines" and i dont know why everyone regurgitates that line. It plays nothing like ant except that you usually resolve tendrils at the end.

Pros of playing Doomsday:
-it is very good at playing through permanent based hate and discard.
-It is a deterministic kill, i.e. you're not banking on drawing the right cards with Ad Nauseam or hoping they don't have a sweeper for your 14 goblin tokens.
-it's miracles matchup, especially postboard, is arguably the best of all the storm variants.
-It is scientifically proven to make you the coolest kid in the room.

Cons of playing doomsday:
-it is the slowest storm variant. But it is important to be clear here. It can win on the first or 2nd turn. The chance of this happening is just much lower than in TES or ANT. On average, it is approximately the same speed as ANT, maybe half a turn slower. Of course this can be critical.
-it is hard. About 80%of the time you'll use one of 5 basic piles and it'll seem easy. But the remaining 20 percent of the time you'll have to kill them with a double-doomsday storm pile through a gaddock teeg or something and that is hard. You will lose games only to later realize you could have won with a pile you didn't noice at the time.

Doomsday is a good deck. It has a number of good finishes in normal proportion to the number of good players, which is very low. It is different from other storm decks, but it is very fun. I suggest you give it a go.

I forgot to mention some more pros and cons of the deck.

Pros:
It has an extremely stable manabase. 4 basic lands, 17 lands total. It plays more because it can be mana hungry, but like other storm decks it can go off from just one open black mana with the right cards.

It is not graveyard reliant, at all really.

If you play it (you should), lab maniac lets you ignore gaddock teeg, leyline, infinite life, all sorts of random crap that would plague other storm decks.

Cons:
Since you cut your life in half, sometimes more than once, you can just die to bolt. Also, this means that at 1 life you can't win with doomsday, so you effectively have only 18 life.

As a corollary to the previous point, it is hard, though not impossible, to win without casting doomsday. Sometimes you can make 14 goblins. Sometime you can chain enough rituals, loop some tops, etc to wish for a lethal tendrils. But you usually have to resolve doomsday to win.

Basically it boils down to this: are any marginal advantages you may gain, weighed against the disadvantages, worth the mental anguish?

Sorry about the essay. I feel very strongly about the deck, since it was my first and still is my favorite.

Why Chromatic Sphere instead of Star? The difference is pretty small, but as far as I know it is totally in Star's favor.

ANT kills are usually PIF, which are deterministic. The specific lines that make more sense after playing doomsday are things like Brainstorm + Probe + LED + Business spell etc. In general, I have never played Doomsday and been thrilled with its matchups. I can see miracles being better, but that's already a good matchup.

You cant respond to Chromatic Sphere: It's a mana ability.

tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-06-16-budget-goblins/

My first attempt at building for legacy and before anyone says >budget I had most of this shit lying around but never used it

As another user said, it's draw is part of a mana ability and can't be responded to. You can build removal proof labman piles with it. I'm not a huge fan of it but it could be worse and i'm beginning to see it as a necessary evil.

ANT does have more deterministic kills than TES, but it's fastest kills typically involve AN. Regarding ddft's matchups, it has slightly worse matchups vs fast combo (and burn is usually a wash) and slightly better matchups vs discard heavy and hate permanent heavy decks, relative to other storm decks. Other storm decks often rely on speed to go under those decks, meaning they often rely on non-deterministic kills to go under these decks. DDFT doesn't need to.

Before this gets heated, I would like to mention that i'll never try to argue that DDFT is the "best" storm deck. I just think it is an equally valid storm choice for people looking to spice up their lives, and is neither some mystical all-powerful deck or just a bad ANT.

You NEED Warchief and Lackey, both of which are very affordable. Really, you can build non-budget Goblins if you pick up Aether Vials, you have all of the other expensive cards.

Thalia is the best goblin.

gate deck with some pox elements here: mono B is love, mono B is life.

I'm fine with people proxying up cards they intend to buy, but holy shit it's annoying when someone who clearly has no intention to drop a penny on a Legacy deck strolls into the shop with a full 60 card proxied deck and thinks nothing of it. Frankly it's disrespectful to the people who've worked hard to earn the money for their decks, not to mention devalues the game in general. I mean, why buy any cards at all if you can just proxy them?

Thanks man that's really helpful.

About the wincons: it seems you either kill with Tendrils or ETW as with normal storm decks but I've seen some decks include Lab Man and Emrakul/Shelldock Isle. Is this just SB against Gaddock Teeg? How do you usually end up winning?

Also, have you ever tried Past in Flames as an alternate wincon if you can't resolve DD? You could just chain cast rituals, tutors and Burning Wish into Tendrils like a regular storm deck.

The only reason Miracles looks oppressive is because Americans are legitimately too fucking retarded to play against the deck, making it top 8 more than it deserves. NO ONE in the US plays D&T or even knows what the deck is, despite it being a great deck in a Miracles-heavy metagame. Miracles isn't a problem in the least in Europe.

I play Stax and miracles is one of my best match-up. Bitches try to play control, but have no idea what a true lock out is

How? You cast sphere first, then they can remove it while Labman is on the stack. You cast Labman first, they remove him when you attempt to cast sphere. I guess if StP is the only removal you're worried about in that matchup it makes sense, but I don't see a way to play aroud Abrupt Decay with it. Do you just go for Tendrils in that case?

If they're using a decay on your sphere, they aren't using it on labman. Its not ideal, but it's nowhere close to terrible

>no one in the US has heard of DnT
Source?

My ass

I'm building rug delver for my first and most likely only legacy deck. Am I in for fun and salt?

For you? Fun. That deck is oodles of fun to play.

Nice. That's what I'm hoping for. I'm tired of being a modern baby and stifle, daze and wasteland get me excited

RUG is soft to some things, but it's easily the best Daze deck in the format

What's everyone's opinion on a ban on a Miracles card? Until recently I was strongly opposed, but I've noticed that it's pushing a bunch of decks out of the format. High Tide, RUG Delver and Maverick are seeing almost no play due in some part to Miracles. You see every black deck splashing green for abrupt decay, and decks without a way to remove or ignore it tend to be unplayable.

I would be happy with a Counterbalance ban, but not with a Top ban. Thoughts?

The problem is that everyone is whining about Miracles but no one wants to play the decks that beat it. Instead people just keep playing Elves and Delver and whining about Miracles.

So you're saying that you either play decks that beat miracles or you play miracles? How is that healthy, having one bad matchup decide the playability of your deck. Furthermore, Delver and elves are both able to fight miracles. I'm talking about decks which aren't running Abrupt Decay or a pile of 4+ drops.

I'm not saying that at all. Not all decks that don't run Force of Will are combo decks you know. They rely on the metagame to push unfavourable decks out. It doesn't take many D&T/Shardless/Jund matches for Miracles to get kicked out of the tournament.

>RUG is soft to some things
I'm not super familiar with legacy. What kills the deck?

Execpt that Shardlesss and Jund are no longer bad matchups for Miracles. Decks like 12 Post and Goblins are; decks that are not great against anything but miracles. The point still stands that Counterbalance is currently one of the driving forces in deck design.

A couple random things, but Miiracles and grixis Delver are the two big ones.

>Execpt that Shardlesss and Jund are no longer bad matchups for Miracles
What changed? Oh wait it's fucking nothing. Deck hasn't changed since inception but oh wait NOW it's a problem deck. More copies of Shardless made the top 16 at GP Prague than Miracles so I honestly cannot understand what the problem is.

Ruination. Thats what changed.

The problem is: decks with poor miracles matchups are unplayable. Counterbalance is one of the first cards to consider in deck building. The deck is constraining diversity in the format.

Actually Ruination and Predict

>The problem is: decks with poor miracles matchups are unplayable
Don't be so melodramatic.

magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gppra16/top-100-legacy-metagame-grand-prix-prague-2016-06-12

In the top 100 decks at Prague only 12 were Miracles, and you're telling me that Miracles somehow warped that? Eat shit you're flagrantly wrong at this point. Did baby get his snowflake brew eaten by a Counterbalance?

Is grixis delver better or just a better matchup. I think I like goyf too much to not run green

I like how we're just using GP Prague. If we look at GP Columbus, amalgamated data from live tournaments or amalgamated data from online tournaments, Miracles is by far the best performing deck.

And although I'm flattered, I did not create High Tide or Painter or RUG Delver or Maverick.

I think its a bit better, but RUG is playable. Deathrite just makes Goose look silly

I'm ignoring Columbus being Prague stands as proof that Miracles isn't a problem. The problem is that D&T, one of the worst matchups for Miracles, doesn't exist in the US. Just look at the top 16 of Columbus. 8 copies of Miracles, not a single fucking D&T.

Sure. Death and Taxes is the answer. The only valid data set is the one that supports the result you like. Whatever.

There are other places in the pile a decay will fuck you up, so you need to make them discard that. But decaying your chromatic sphere just means they don't have it for labman and you'you'll win in your next draw step.

>Deck has existed for years
>NOW it's a problem

Sure.

Now that your deck has been sufficiently tuned? Yes. It isn't the same deck from 2011.

>Baby is calling a ban on miracles
What is next, a delver ban? Go play modern

So Miracles has adapted itself to the metagame, but decks needing to adapt to the metagame is the reason Miracles is a problem? And is Miracles the only deck that can be tuned?

Ruination has been Legacy legal almost as long as Legacy has existed as a format. If you faggots haven't figured out an answer to it by now, that's one hundred percent your fault.

I like how when the Miracles players can't come up with a reason why their deck is healthy for the format, they resort to name calling. This ain't third grade boys.

Tendrils is the basic kill. Check the list I posted in the op, it's a pretty standard list, although my manabase is a bit different from normal. ETW is good for when you can make 6-8 storm turn 1 or 2 and goblis are your best shot. I advocate a labman main, because it can get around a lot of hate (this slot was chain of vapor in older lists). Lab man is also good for when you can't generate enough storm, like in the face of heavy discard. Shelldock/emmy is sideboard against blue decks without wasteland. I've never tried past in flames, but I could see trying it out of the sideboard. DDFT doesn't run as many rituals as other storm decks though so you won't get as much value.

In case you weren't sure, a basic kill looks like this:
DDay, ritual, LED, cantrip
Ritual->doomsday
Ideas Unbound, LED, LED, cantrip, Burning Wish
Then cast LED, cantrip cracking LED for UUU, Ideas, LED, LED, cantrip cracking LEDs for BBBRRR, wish, tendrils with exactly 10 storm.

>Dredge is good against Miracles
>DnT is Good against miracles
>Any BGx deck can have an even match against miracles.
>Lands have an even match against miracles

the reason that you don't know how to play against counterbalance is not proof that the deck is unhealthy

>thereare casuals who don'the dredge master race
I pity the casuallfags who can't piss off legacy as a whole.

Miracles has been dominant since it was first introduced. It has seen a couple reasonable printings, but the format has been given ample time to adjust. The format has been given an enormous amount of time to adjust, but there isn't a way to attack Miracles that doesn't involve warping your deck. Needing to play 3-4 abrupt decays in every possible deck isn't healthy. As long as miracles is in the format in its current form, it will be the best deck in the format. The deck can exist without counterbalance. With it, there isn't a compelling reason to play anything that isn't Miracles or isn't specifically good against Miracles.

a real legacy player must have always Miracles And Dredge with him

>The deck forces you to play abrupt decay
Dredge, DnT and MUD, would like to have a talk with you

I would say Belcher too, but it's just :do you get FoW in your opening hand?

>Eldrazi
>D&T
>Burn
>Merfolk
>Infect
>Stoneblade
>Lands
>Show and Tell
>Dredge

Just look at all these decks that require Abrupt Decay!

It wasn't played in miracles until a couple months ago. Shardless can't do anything about it other than play bad cards like hydroblast.

Miracles generally beats lands and BGx, outside of maybe BUG Delver. Dredge is a good choice, except that it's really not that good against anything else. DnT is good, but it has a rough time against lightning bolt decks/storm/elves etc.

Play 'the deck' or play a deck that beats 'the deck' is where legacy is. I haven't seen anyone explain why this is ok isn't true.

They all deal with counterbalance differently. The point that having a plan for counterbalance deciding your decks playability stands.

>Eldrazi
I'm still mad this is a deck

>Miracles generally beats lands and BGx
Suck a fucking dick lad.

>The point is that adjusting to the meta is unhealthy for any deck!!!
I imagin if you don't have cards against storm, you would be calling a ban too

Lands cant beat a balance on 2. BGx being this magical anti-miracles color combo was true maybe a year ago, before miracles went hard into manabase pressure.

>Hydroblast
>bad card

What the actual fuck is wrong with your brain

It's like you've just decided that the whole world needs to change and your shitty deck alone is the one thing in the universe that can stay as is

Miracles adapted to the meta. Adapt back or stop playing Magic you cunt.

How many decks run cards specifically for storm? How decks run cards that are specifically in the deck to destroy or negate counterbalance.

>Lands cant beat a balance on 2
And Miracles can't beat a Chalice on 1.

I have adapted. I run 3 abrupt decays in Grixis Delver. I don't play Maverick or Painter or High Tide or RUG Delver anymore because they can't answer a counterbalance. I have 5 cards and 1 extra color in my Storm build that I only play because of Miracles. This give me a fighting chance, even a good matchup, but I don't see why every deck should need to warp itself to beat one deck.

Except it can, pre or post board.

WELL COUNTERBALANCE CAN'T ANSWER ABRUPT DECAY I GUESS I'D BETTER STOP PLAYING MIRACLES

>lands can't beat a chalice on 2
What the actual fuck are you smoking?
Lands is just fine with chalice on 2, chalice on both 2 and 3 causes problems, but until that point lands can just keep trucking along giving exactly zero fucks.

Excuse my ignorance.
Isn't lands the deck that runs dark depths and thespian stage to marit lage ftw?
or is other deck?
Cuz the deck only casts life from the loam, and runs wasteland, i think the only good thing miracles has against that deck is Sword

>Grixis
>Abrupt Decay

???

Grixis Delver is actually 4 colors now, splashing green for Decay (and I guess occasionally exiling a creature with DRS).

Why is rug delver called Canadian threshold?

I get thresh but what makes it Canadian?

Old, pre-Delver versions of the deck that were more focused on getting Threshold were popularized by the success a group of Canadian players had, I think. The name is older than the deck as it is now.

Anyone here plays canadian highlander?

Having played Vintage Doomsday I really wish I could bring myself to play it in Legacy as Doomsday is objectively the funnest card to play with... but I can't do it. It just feels so, so much weaker.

On topic; been playing Stax. I'm liking it quite a lot especially against the literal swarm of Miracles on Modo.

The deck they call Lands usually has a DD and Lesbian Stage in it, but it's not the focus of the deck. It does decently against Miracles.

HOWEVER. There is a a massively underappreciated deck that crops up occasionally called Turbo Depths whose sole goal is to shit out a Dark Depths as fast as possible. It usually runs a sizeable targeted discard suite and Abrupt Decay to dea; with threats, plus DD, Stage, Hexmage, and Life from the Loam for excellent redundancy and inevitability. It does fine against most decks but it absolutely DUNKS on Miracles. Seriously, it has a win ratio around 70:30 if piloted well.

Problem is turbo depths eats massive shit to combo, or dredge.

Its not that bad against combo, you just need to keep a hand with a good amount of discard. If you shred a storm deck's opener, you'll usually put a Marit Lage together before they recover. The main issue against a combo deck is that in an all out race, your combo will always be one turn behind because to need to swing with a haste-less creature.

Dredge does hurt but that's why you mainboard a Bojuka bog so you can drop it at instant speed with Crop Rotation.

This is a shitty mindset. At the end of the day it's just a game. That person with 60 proxies is still employing competitve strategies and having fun they just don't care to waste money on cardboard. Most of my playgroup are familiar with a lot of cards so obscure proxies are never an issue. If the player with 60 proxies is trash at the game or playing with people who don't know many cards then they are being an asshole. Otherwise let em flex their mental prowess with the rest of us, some people like having physical cards some only care about the challenge of the game or winning. Don't judge don't care doesn't matter.

how much could it cost on Magic online?

No clue, I don't do MTGO. I can say it's generally seen as sort of a budget deck. Dark Depths, Thoughtseeize, and Abrupt Decay are the really expensive cards in it, and they're not THAT expensive;

Netdeck-ing it would set you back about 1600. Idk how that translates to tickets. MTGOGoldfish senpai

Oh and it usually runs Wastelands and Verdant Catacombs. It likes to have Bayou but you could get away with Overgrown Tomb instead no problem. Lots of people play Divining Top too. Still one of the cheapest decks in Legacy.

Lel you forgot the REALLY expensive cards fampai. But comparing $1600 to something like Shardless BUG, which can get close to $4000, it doesn't seem so bad.

mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-turbo-depths-24655#paper
2,2k
But don't mind i will buy expensive cards to chinamen

It already runs 1 trop for the other half of DRS, +1 trop +2 Decay -1 volc -2 cabal therapy was the concession to make Miracles less miserable.

Couldn't the rug version do the same and splash black?

Yes, but the problem it runs into is that you can't cant cast a Goose off of a Usea, while you can still cast a DRS off a Trop. If you do decide to try to cut a Volc for a Usea that might be ok, but the mana base is really tight. Try it out maybe?