Why did yugioh die? Magic has been around for almost 20 years or so and is just as popular as ever. Yet yugioh...

Whatever you say sport

Out of curiosity what changes you don't like, user?

I feel a wall-of-text incoming, everybody get your smug anime faces ready.

>doesn't even try to deny it

You shouldn't talk about something if you haven't even experienced 10% of it.

Sure thing champ

Insane power creep with little regard for balance that constantly invalidates anything existing before it?

If you and an opponent disagree on a rules interaction, you call a judge and you turn out to be wrong, you instantly lose tge game.
If you touch your opponent's cards, you are instantly disqualified.
If you watch a game and see a player cheat or STEAL their opponent's cards, you're not allowed to interfer. Nobody is except the players.

When new cards are released, the first judge to judge an interaction sets binding precedent, which is different for japan and the rest of the world. It has happened before that the rules actually work differently depending on where you are, as a japanese judge ruled differently on a new card than an european/american judge.

>everything about all of that shit

What the actual fuck.

If I throw my cards at an opponent, will he get disqualified?

>If you and an opponent disagree on a rules interaction, you call a judge and you turn out to be wrong, you instantly lose tge game.
>If you touch your opponent's cards, you are instantly disqualified.
False. You only get a Game Loss if the interaction is done to the point where the gamestate is irreversable. Most of the time you just get a warning for fucking up and you're urged not to do it again.

And you're supposed to ask permission before touching other people's cards, that's just common courtesy.

>If you and an opponent disagree on a rules interaction, you call a judge and you turn out to be wrong, you instantly lose tge game.
>If you touch your opponent's cards, you are instantly disqualified.
>If you watch a game and see a player cheat or STEAL their opponent's cards
These are probably related. Yugioh has a problem with horrible players.

Just as XYZ is the end of the alphabet, it spelled the end for Yugioh, too.

I actually like some of the changes, like no mana burn, etb instead of citp, "dies" and damage no longer going to the stack.
Then again I dislike the new legends rule and planeswalkers as a whole...

There is no way I'm this old

>opponent plays card in MTG
>no idea WTF it does, spin it around so I can see it
>game resumes

>do so in YGO
>DONT TOUCH MY CARDS JUDGE JUDGE

The TV show stopped showing.

No big money prizes at their official tournaments

Me and like 6 friends play it. What's wrong?

Asking the important Yugioh tech

I never really played super competitively and only for brief periods on and off for the past 15 years or so, but around 2013 I tried yu-gi-oh! online. Outside of casual play it was atrocious due to every faggot running some ridiculous 10 minute turn deck with shitloads of bookkeeping so that you barely know what's going on, the mechanics were way too fucking complex and annoying, allowing for absurd combos that pretty much decide the game once activated so you might as well just concede instead of waiting a half hour to lose. MTG has this problem but to a much lesser degree and there are plenty of other ways to win.

It'll still mean Konami will control the japan's entertainment market in 10 years time, and the whole TG and Video Games markets as a whole in 20, everything they did these last years were genius moves. I can't wait when they'll eat Nintendo alive!

>every faggot running some ridiculous 10 minute turn deck with shitloads of bookkeeping so that you barely know what's going on, the mechanics were way too fucking complex and annoying, allowing for absurd combos that pretty much decide the game once activated so you might as well just concede instead of waiting a half hour to lose.
Yeah, that can be an issue, although I find that to be one of the more charming points of the game. Not watching my opponent do it of course, but seeing the board state and my cards and trying to figure out how I can use my resources to get what I need to possibly win while playing around their backrow and making sure I still have options left for the next turn should things go worse than expected.

It also helps that once you know what your play strings are like the turn time is cut down significantly. Even when I come across really fucking complicated board states my actual plays don't take that long and most of the turn is spent thinking over card interactions.

It's a very different style to MtG, and definitely something that can turn people off, but if you can enjoy it it makes its own fun experience.

You ask first bro? They have to let you see the card if you request permission, he was likely worried you were going to steal his shit

>Konami
>Reduced to literally a pachinko machine babby
>controlling the entertainment market ever
kek

To be fair everything in that post, other than the calling a judge part, sounds exactly like the kind of stupid shit you'd expect to see happen in the anime.

>The M:tG changes have been pretty fucking retarded themselves.
I thought MtG Planeswalkers were stupid.

Glad I fell out of MtG before they were introduced.

Only because in the anime, there are no judges

while that's courtesy, violating that courtesy does not result in a DQ in MTG.
If it actually does in Yug, that's a pretty massive problem.

>Planeswalkers are stupid
>I fell out of the game before Planeswalkers were introduced
Have you actually even used one?, Planeswalkers are some of the most
Interactive cards in the game.

The same is often said of Synchros and Xyz

People play it I'm east coast and we have our fair share of yugioh tourneys but yeah konami of America's autism and faggotry is ruining the game the literally separate it into three spheres EU, America, Japan and gross mismanagement

I don't think any change in Magic is comparable to how much Konami fucked up in changing the fundamentals/speed of Yugioh.
Like, at the end of the day, Magic is still more-or-less the same game it was 20 years ago. Yugioh is not recognizable at all (for the worse).

No, because he didn't touch your cards, your cards touched him.

You will however get a penalty for delay of game.

That's part of it, but the bigger thing is because the prizes aren't cash, it lets them have events in eastern european countries like Germany or Austria. MTG can't do any higher level events like GPs or Pro Tours in those countries because they run afoul of Gambling laws.

Yu gi oh outsells magic

There's no way any of this is true. It's just too autistic to even contemplate.

So, if you put a card on your opponent's seat when he's in the bathroom/before you start, or you push your opponent onto the table...

WHAT A GAME

Only in terms of sealed product. It's secondary market is non-existent. Go, try to sell one of your GP promo Golden Sarcophagus and see who wants to buy it.

YGO's had a problem with theft to the point where Konami is always really apprehensive about releasing cards that change control, because there have been incidents where players have "forgotten" to return cards that they didn't own.

Honestly, if you can't at least rush out a quick "can I look at this real quick?" while you reach for a card, you're probably not anybody worth playing, anyway. Rude people rarely are.

He's exaggerating. I'm a certified judge in both TCG and OCG rulings.
You do get penalized if you call for a judge on a ruling you're incorrect on, but that's only after a NUMBER of sequential similar incidents (it falls under "rule sharking"). It's also not a DQ, but a game loss, if I recall. Certainly no larger than a match loss.
If you touch your opponent's cards without asking, they CAN call a judge, but the worst you'll get is a warning unless your touching of the cards broke the gamestate (you messed with face-down cards on the opponent's board and could've seen them, for instance). If you break the gamestate it's usually a game loss, or a match loss for people with multiple offenses.
If you see somebody cheating or stealing, you're only allowed to inform a judge of the problem unless YOU are one of the involved players. It's sad for me to say this, but many judges won't do shit about it, or worse, may even be in on it (about 95% of high-level players are either privy to or take part in cheating, with and without judge assistance).

Sadly, the last bit about rulings precedent is 100% true. We've had a good half-dozen scuffles over the past 2-3 years because some retard in a major TCG event decided that Call of the Haunted and Deneb don't work the same as in Japan literally "because I said so". The cards we get in TCG are out in OCG for a good 3+ months before TCG even CONSIDERS printing them, so most of the important rulings are already figured out. This doesn't even remain consistent in all of TCG regions. The CotH/Deneb example applied exclusively to NA, meaning that European players had the original OCG rulings on the subject. Rulings are a fucking mess because too many big-shot judges want to be a speshul snowflaek.

Aren't you NDAd so you can't talk about anything like that?

well those exagerations mostly seem like it's withing the realm of normal behavior
everything from
>It's sad
describes a non-viable game. Like utterly, get out now, do not start, game deserves to die bad.

There's nothing in that post that isn't public-accessible knowledge. Most players could tell you about the Deneb/Call rulings fiasco, and all of the rulings/penalties information is available both on Konami's site and the wiki. So long as I'm not naming names, saying "judges may be in on cheating" isn't doing anything except making people keep a better eye on their shit.

Regarding theft, most judges won't do anything about it because realistically, they can't. You can say "X stole Y's cards" but unless they saw it, there's really not much they can do except ask politely for the cards back and DQ/ban them if they refuse.

KoA treats a lot of their judges like shit. They've openly stated in at least one blog post (on their blog that they use to try and sell cards to the public) that they avoid anything that forces judges to actually do their jobs and pay attention to other players. The fact that they're just volunteers doesn't help at all.

KoA needs to whip the judge program into shape. I feel that would be a solid step in the right direction to fixing competitive play.

That said, casual play is fantastic and the game is still fun. You just have to avoid tryhards like the plague.

>You just have to avoid tryhards like the plague.
This. I played competitively for a bit and was a mega-autist rules lawyer and people still lost their shit when things didn't work they way they thought. I remember when dark world was released and everyone was playing cards with discard as a cost, then dumping Silvaa and whatnot into the yard, only for me to be like "nope".

>some retard in a major TCG event decided that Call of the Haunted and Deneb don't work the same as in Japan literally "because I said so".
God fucking damn, I forgot about that. That was one of the dumbest things I have ever seen.

I'll accept that casual play could still be fun, but even in casual play I feel having good rules adjudicating structure to go back on, so that you don't have to house rule, is a good thing.

That, and the sort of corporate structure that could lead to a competitive play environment like that makes me real fucking suspicious of the games long term health.

The wiki has both TCG and OCG rulings regarding cards, and if you're playing with English cards in Burgerland, OCG's probably put out a ruling on all of the important interactions (and some unimportant ones that players request). Even judges refer to the wiki in low-level tournaments, especially locals.

If checking a wiki every time a problem comes up isn't your cup of tea, you could always learn the finer rules yourself and figure out the rest. Because of the focus on specific and consistent wording, you can usually get an idea of how a ruling is going to go based on other rulings with similar cards.

except that wiki will have contradictions between the rules sets, if I understand you correctly. And I would have very good reason to believe that those ruling are not well made.

It's not having an online ruling database, it's having one I could trust.

which one is better?
Yugioh, vanguard or force of will ?

Because magic took steps to make the game batter, YGO did not. The rules are not as retarded, there is a mana system that prevents you from drooping a one-turn win half the time (it still happens, it's just not easy) the ban list has some seans in it, they have key words, there are formats that are for both seasoned players and new guys, you can still play older edition decks agients new edition decks. Overall MTG was made to be a good card game, YGO was made to make money and they made up shit as they went along

They keyword complaint is always fucking stupid. Yugioh's text is designed with a lot of intricacies, such that it cannot be simplified down easily from where it is now.

MTG has problems, quite few because it was basically creating a new category of game.
Most other games that straight aped it died, and those that are surviving have fundamentally changed certain aspects. Randomized packs, dedicated card type for resource generation, those things are falling out of style.

MTG survived by trying to be the best it can be at what it is. This includes a lot of market research and refinement. Above all, responsiviness to the player base.
Critics will say that WotC doesn't listen to anyone. That's wrong. They listen plenty, the people who are upset were simply seen as not contributing as much to the customer base, or being incompatable with the offers to grow an maintain the customer base.

MTG does operate to make money, and they do make money. But they are not in for the quick cash grab. They're in for keeping people buying 5+ years from now. Because that's how far ahead they have parts of their design and development team working.

Force of Will is my current vote, but they're still pretty young comparatively so it's hard to say. FoW combines a lot of the best aspects of numerous games to great effect, although it's totally a dead thing in some areas where others see it every bit as popular as FNM, so YMMV.

Vanguard I know nothing about, but supposedly it's not quite as strong a game as the other two and the rarity system means you need to be ready to buy a box, boosters ain't shit

YGO is YGO, it's insane on all levels and it catches a lot of shit because it's insane on all levels, even though you only experience so much insanity at one time. It might just be a thing in the deep south but avoid the YGO playerbases like the plague- in all three stores in three states I've seen, they were all thieves, angsty teenagers and wannabe-teenagers, and shitlords, in some combination. I'm not saying all YGO players are like this by any means, but most of the people who came in for YGO and only YGO blended together into an intolerable mass.

just because you don't know anyone that plays doesn't mean that the game has died

>The first is that konami sees the game solely as a means to make money
and you are naive enough to think that Wizards doesn't see magic the same way?

you are a good judge user

>YGO was made to make money and they made up shit as they went along
I think the big problem with yugioh is that the base rules are utter nonsense to start with. They have types, like mtg's colours, except they're pretty much irrelevant. They have levels, but there was no real purpose to them other than tribute costs (which could have been much easier to set with a 0, 1, or 2 star system). The 5 monster and trap zones seem largely pointless. The formatting, as a giant block of tiny text with no keywords or (for quite a while, at least) no real standardized wording at all, was and still is a mess (FoW, Wixoss, even Vanguard all look much better, and present their information in a much more streamlined way). I could go on, but the game is a clusterfuck of design made to 'look like a tcg' rather than for actual gameplay reasons.

The most interesting thing in yugioh is seeing how they manage to actually make the game function in spite of this retarded design. Synchros were an absolutely brilliant idea that made levels actually relevant past the 0 or 1 tribute function (2 tribute normal summons were never practical). Archetype based design gets around how otherwise the pull would be to a perfect list of 40 staples that is literally the only thing worth playing because there's otherwise no real distinction of archetypes (such as there is with the mtg colour wheel). It's still a mess of a game, but it's somewhat interesting to check out maybe once a year, just to see what they've done to expand their design space.

Sadly, Pendulum feels pretty uninspired (on top of loading even more text on the cards), so I think they may be running out of unique design space.

Picked up some Vanguard cards recently. Looks slightly interesting, although after Weiss, I'm hesitant to give any bushiroad game a second look. I'd be interested in hearing some user's opinions, though.

>MTG has problems, quite few because it was basically creating a new category of game.
After playing some very recent tcgs, Wixoss especially, has me questioning a lot of the basic tenants that mtg works under, and way too many aspiring tcgs just accept as gospel. Drawing one card per turn, a specific resource card type, even a lot of the formatting (wixoss clearly identifies between ETB, activated, and constant abilities directly on the card), all of this is just blindly grandfathered in on too many tcgs.
Also, mtg foils look like dogshit

OK weebshit.

I don't deny it. But the templating is still top notch.

>using the word shitlord

even early on, attributes and monster types played some role. Stuff like Allure of Darkness was an old card and related directly to attributes

Levels youre right about, only thing they ever were used for was Rituals which were irrelevant for a long time

Who needs secondary market like mtg? Is just kikery and will kill the game. I like my staples at 5 or less bucks. Is a game, not a product for kikes like you

Richard Garfield, who made MTG, broke those conventions with the next CCG he made.

VTeS: Under normal circumstances you draw a card as soon as you play one. Unless something on a card mentions it, you always have max hand size.
It has is designed to be played with multiple players, with where you are seated changing how you interact with different players. No dedicated resource card, and two different decks.

Then he made Netrunner. Which not only didn't have dedicated resource cards and violated the one card per turn rule, it was an asymmetrical game. One player was the runner the other the Corp.

That was just the same guy.

Warlord used card position to represent it's resource. Every one drew up to 5 cards at the start of each turn, and actions went back and forth.
I could go on.

>Garfield made Netrunner
My mind is blown.

Go back to your containment board.

you first

OK. Now, make an actual argument for why adhering to these things is not needed, and people might actually listen to you.

As for drawing a card every turn, the only game I know that doesn't do this (and only half the time) is Netrunner. And then it's due to a combination of the low hand sizes and the click mechanic.

...

True, which is why it's still so frustrating to see things like FoW, and even things like Hearthstone and yugioh, continue to ape mtg, despite mtg being basically the experimental prototype. It got a lot of things right, but there is so much more out there that can be done with the tcg format, and there's a lot of room to improve, not just in small tweaks, but to the core of the rules themselves.

Another important thing to remember is that Yu-Gi-Oh started off as a nonsensical one shot game in the Manga(as all the games shown basically were). And since it was so popular it expanded.

So initially the card game tried to copy the format as close as possible so that YGO fans could REALLY PLAY DUAL MANSTERS.

And sadly many of the conventions of the game were grandfathered in despite largely being arbitrary.

warlord. Everyone draws up to 5 cards at the start of the turn.
There isn't a resource mechanic in the game other than the cards and their position. Having 5 cards is a large part of your action limit.

VtES: you draw cards as soon as they are played. Like warlords the limit was your characters actions.
Characters in turn were drawn from a seperate deck, drawing new ones required the use of transfers, which was also your resource for playing creatures, but also used the equivalent of your life pts as a resource.

Drawing one or a set number of cards per turn dictates a pace of the game, and interacts with your other limiting resources. It's a fine mechanic, the problem is that it's assumed, rather than justified in many games.

You're asking businessmen to innovate. Good luck. However, the Elder Scrolls card game looks new and interesting.

To be fair, the Dark World thing was a very easy mistake to make way back when they were first released. I'm pretty sure they were some of the first cards where that distinction actually mattered.

Explain the Call of the Haunted thing?

This. Competitive play was never a major part of Yu-Gi-Oh's popularity, and once the kiddies moved on, that was it.

[citation needed]

None of the rules of mtg are there because they were brought down by the gods of card games, you stupid little fuck

The rules are necessary inasmuch as they exist relative to each other

The idea that a single rule in any given game could be "wrong" is retarded, the rules exist relative to each other, if a game has a problem, the problem is the sum of the rules

There's nothing wrong with games that have different rules than magic, and if you prefer one of those games, that's fine, but don't blame it on a single rule

Right, but the thing is, those games had some other mechanic to balance it out. The absence of such a mechanic IS the justification. Take out the limit and all hell breaks loose.

Arguements can get a little long, and longer posts are easier to ignore, but here goes:

1 card per turn: makes the game often stall out after the innitial exchange of spells, often leaving either one or both players with little to do but topdeck well before the game concludes. Multiple cards per turn gives more interaction and makes raw CA a less dominant factor.

Specific resource cards: They slow down the pace of the game but reducing the number of cards you draw. They're also just a very boring card type in general, they have very little interesting impact on the board, and are only missed when they're gone. Notice all the complaints about mana-screw or mana-flood (especially among new players, but even pros complain about this costing them games). They don't complain about getting 'creature screwed'; the lands that do nothing clogging their hand or don't appear are a much stronger target for negativity, because they do nothing in and of themselves. Many other games have created resource systems that still limit available options without creating the negative play experiences the existence of resource-specific cards do.

As for formatting, rather than a block of text, adding certain cues helps process what the card does faster, and makes for a more streamlined experience. Mtg does this to an extent with keywords and spacing, yugioh just throws all its text into a paragraph and hopes you get it eventually, but there are better examples. Although some games seem to take it too far, Vanguard looks really gaudy with all its special symbols and colorings everywhere in the text box.

>makes the game often stall out after the innitial exchange of spells, often leaving either one or both players with little to do but topdeck well before the game concludes.
Have you ever, in your life, played MTG?

>makes the game often stall out after the innitial exchange of spells, often leaving either one or both players with little to do but topdeck well before the game concludes
That sounds way more likely to happen in modern Yugioh than Magic, if it weren't for the fact that said initial exchange of cards is likely to end with someone either already dead, or at least far enough behind that they know they aren't going to be able to make a comeback.

You're slightly missing the point (and it's possible I just suck at communicating it). It's not that mtg is flawed, but that it's rules are not necessarily the greatest implementation possible in a tcg game. There's a lot of room for innovation that a lot of tcgs don't grab. I honestly think it's this problem, though . It's more difficult to sell an innovative game than it is to sell 'weeb-mtg' or 'phone-mtg'.

Not him, but I just started and it usually begins with

>draw cards
>play lands
>end turn
>play lands
>end turn

Until one side has enough lands to summon a creature.

Yeah, I'm with your arguments don't really hold water when the game is actually played. Games made with these rules, if made right, will find ways to get around these weaknesses. I mean, here, let's just go through a few things you said.
>They slow down the pace of the game
Yes, because in games made with these systems, fast mana leads to ridiculous turn 0 wins.
>They're also just a very boring card type in general
According to you.
>they have very little interesting impact on the board
Landfall. That's just one example out of many.
>and are only missed when they're gone.
...Isn't that the only way to miss something, after it's gone? How do you miss something before you get it?

Yes. And there are a lot of stalls. The combat system leads to board stalls. Control as an archetype is based around creating stalls, except you stall slightly less than your opponent.

More so than mtg, that criticism especially is aimed at yugioh. The '1 summon per turn' and '1 card drawn per turn' rules both seem to exist not to dictate a smooth pace of gameplay, but 'just because'. It feels like yugioh was a 'product designed to look like a tcg', not as a 'game to be played as a tcg.'

>Until one side has enough lands to summon a creature.
You realise there's creatures and other spells costing only 1 or 2 mana, right? Real decks have a mana curve so they have a turn 1,2 etc. play.

>draw-go
It's like I'm really in the 90s!

That's because you just started. There are all sorts of magical christmas land hands. I was typing out some elaborate combo when I realized, you'll have no idea what I'm talking about.

Think about it this way, imagine pic related, with 12 additional +1/+1 counters, on turn 3. It's not even hard to do.

>the greatest implementation
>innovation
These two things are not equal. "Original" does not mean "good." I understand that you want games with different systems, but that won't affect the quality of the game at all. And really, the fact that there are certain mechanics that are used a lot make them a lot more attractive because their advantages and disadvantages are a lot more obvious, whereas if you try something new, you might fuck up and get something that doesn't work the way you wanted it to because you didn't think of all the possible interactions. I'm all for innovation, believe me, I really like how Netrunner does things, but I'm pretty content with Magic's way too. Though for me, I think it's the complexity that gets me. Pokemon, for example, is similar to Magic, but oh my god, it is so shallow.

In Magic, if you don't start casting stuff on turn 1, you fucked up.

>Games made with these rules, if made right,
Ding! And mtg, to its credit, has done a solidly good job with this. That's not to say that the base rules of a game can not be made to better create a more streamlined gameplay experience.

The less optimized the rules are, the more you need to lean on the design of the cards themselves to set the flow of gameplay, and the easier it is for mistakes in design to muck up the game's flow.

>The less optimized the rules are, the more you need to lean on the design of the cards themselves to set the flow of gameplay
Related to this, I actually think there would be some merit in playing an YGO cube if it's built well.

Heh, I'd like to see Veeky Forums design a better version of YGO. For one, I'd want those elemental types to matter. Are they just there to look nice? Though I don't play much YGO, so maybe I'm just ignorant. The star system I know is beyond fucked though.