So, I've been reading the Dark Angels codex. Do these douchebags have any redeeming qualities...

>It used to make a lot more sense back before the HH black library series. the idea that a large number of fallen existed and the Dark Angels had a sizable proportion fall to chaos after the heresy used to MEAN something, because the idea that there were loyalists and traitors from every legion was never explained back then. It made their actions more understandable. But now that we have shit like a 4th of the White scars turning, a portion of the Raven guard, and every legion losing a portion of their men to chaos at some point or another during the HH which leads to the impact of the fallen seeming too much of an overreaction and thus fucked up their motivations.
There also used to be Dark Angels stories that didn't involve the hunt for the Fallen, the most famous one being Deathwing, the story about space cherokee fighting genestealers. Nowadays though nobody wants to bother writing Dark Angel stories unless it involves the Fallen, in which case the DAs will inevitably act like dicks because hunting Fallen overrides everything else.

>space cherokee
I don't get why they gave them that flavor and not Raven Guard

>best Space Marine chapters period,

Dark Angels

That actually makes sense. Expected another shitty b8 thread desu.

>they do all this while literally being one of the best Space Marine chapters period
They do more damage to the Imperium than good, killing or abandoning whole planets for a single fallen(that even some times might be helping the human settlers to fend off xenos and even chaos forces ) is not a "best of space marines", even the space wolves have a better reputation than those back stabbing bastards.

>incredibly competent
>have the best spies in the Imperium

>they are pretty much the perfect Space Marine chapter
>one of the best Space Marine chapters period
>rivaled only with the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and Ultramarines
>are just ass kicking marines

Do the autistic DAfags actually believe this shit? Or are they just as delusional as their shitty chapter's inner circle, your sins will never be washed away in the blood of your heretic brothers, DA spend their time betraying their allies and washing self defecation stains from their robes whilst telling themselves they're the holiest of the holy, space marines were created by the emperor to protect and serve the imperium of man and uphold their sacred vows of loyalty, which the dark angels suck at doing, they are terrible exemplars for space marines, they are a renegade rogue team-killing band of heretical misfits, all their successor chapters are either in the emo fan club or wishing they were in the emo fan club, lastly, DAfags are all delusional unbridled autistic edgy newfagfaggot retards on one level or another.

A great chapter that upholds the ideals originally laid down by the emperor and serves and protects the imperium of man stoically and is loved by everyone except for IWfags is pic related

This user speaks great wisdom.

>It used to make a lot more sense back before the HH black library series. the idea that a large number of fallen existed and the Dark Angels had a sizable proportion fall to chaos after the heresy used to MEAN something, because the idea that there were loyalists and traitors from every legion was never explained back then. It made their actions more understandable.
The way I've been interpreting the Dark Angels' "big secret" now is not really the civil war on Caliban and the Fallen themselves, but more the number of very questionable things they've done to try and hide those secrets.

It just makes them more interesting to me. Better than "FALLEN FALLEN FALLEN OMG CYPHER FALLEN!"

Didn't Cypher say that? That they were making a huge deal out of the traitors they had, where other legions made no such effort to hide that "shame", especially the WS, who had hundreds of marines that agreed with Horus or something like that (Sagyar Mazan?).
I don't have that pic, though.

Literally every single calibanite that was ever associated with the I Legion is complete and utter scum who should have been purged the moment they were found by the Emperor. The Lion, Luther, old Cypher, belath, nemiel, and any others I failed to mention (except zahariel, he might be one of the only calibanite worth keeping alive) all deserve to have bolts fired through their brainless skulls for all the trouble they caused/still cause for the imperium.

I'm a fan of the idea that where the Ultramarines struggle to be perfect and use their mastery of warfare to achieve it, the Dark Angels are gifted but have ruined their own glory trying to protect it. They would both be excellent chapters and the Dark Angels vying for position of top chapter in the Imperium, but their actions and attempts to guard their shame have made them almost as shameful.

To be fair the 'for a single Fallen' thing is not always the case. In Accept No Failure, Azrael refuses to Exterminatus Piscina IV even though both Asmodai and Belial came to him with suspicion of Fallen involvement because he did not want to cause issue with the Imperium.

Exactly, thats what annoys me the most about the chapter and it did so even BEFORE the other chapters were shown to have traitors as well.

Even without it being an issue of every chapter, it doesnt make sense to commit crimes (essentially treason) in order to hunt down those who committed treason so that other people dont find out that they did and once upon a time you two were from the same team.

Why would Raven guard get Cherokee? Raven guard is supposed to be Edgar Allan Poe

The whole feather thing I guess. Dark Angels already have that robe motif

>Nah lets not exterminatus this planet
>Not because of the loss of human life or resources, just because I don't feel like doing any paperwork

Yeah, fucking grade A Dangles.

back in my day Dark Angels were Arthurian Space Knights. they rode space horses (bikes) and fought literal dragons on caliban for fun. their fluff played up the arthurian angle of the chapter, what with the Primarch/King being betrayed by his best knight/Luther, and the Chapter/Camelot falling into ruin because it was tied to the health of the King/El'Johnson, until the remaining virtuous knights/loyalists completed their quest to find the grail/the fallen. that, combined with the robes always gave me the impression of an entire chapter of Grail Knights.

also i'm pretty sure their chapter master wields Excalibur.

> Do these douchebags have any redeeming qualities
Reavenwing lists are quite viable. Deathwing Knights are also very effective if you know how to use them.

>Do they do ANYTHING else
They kill the xeno, burn the heretic and suffer not the witch to live. Everything else is not your damn business, Astartes do not answer directly to any Imperial authority

>They do more damage to the Imperium than good
No, that would be Imperial Fists and their successors.

>which leads to the impact of the fallen seeming too much of an overreaction
It IS an overreaction. That's why it's their flaw, and not just a neutral characteristic.

I don't know if Cypher said it, since I'm not aware of him having any quotes; but I think the Fallen in Angels of Darkness accused the Dark Angels of that.

Let's be honest here, that's probably why most Inquisitors hold off till the last minute to order the ships to fire.

dark angels were oringinally native american, sorry user, but 'back in your day' must've not been as long ago as you think.

The red indian slant only came about with the deathwing book, which was released in the early 90s. Some time after that it got sort of retconned into only being about one specific recruiting world rather than the DAs only one, alongside fluff about the new Belial & Sammael characters. The dark angels have only been singly native american for a few years at best.

One of the oldest DA models has the Teutonic knights feather helm.

They were always Knights AND INDIANS.

Only if you look at older lore. They fought Ghazghkull before he reached Armageddon, but that's not really brought up much.

I can understand why GW pushes it - it's a great reason for them to end up in just about any fight and fight just about anybody - but it really does get worn out.

Hey, I'm a DAfag, and I just want to say that having a favorite chapter means recognizing that your chapter is great, but also sucks.

They don't have the best spies. The only reason they're so good at tracking down the fallen is years of experience, and the fact that their Librarians can somehow track their gene-seed across space and time. Space Marines as a whole shun espionage, and even the Raven Guard prefer guerrilla tactics, not skulduggery.

They do hold themselves to an elite standard because 1st Legion, so the Chapter on a whole is prettty damn good. But the Fallen are not the most dangerous types of Chaos Marines to exist - some of them try to live peacefully, or barely survive on their own in hiding. Most don't conquer planets or anything.

The Ravenwing might be elite, and you might argue the Deathwing is the best first company because they have full Terminator armor, but the White Scars are still an entire chapter of Space Marines with long traditions of biking, and the Ravenwing has a high death rate. They've lost several Grand Masters in a row at a time.

The Imperium realizes that something is off about the Dark Angels - that much is clear throughout their codexes. They're mysterious, they keep to themselves, they're kind of scary. They just don't quite have the proof to prove that there is something wrong, and the Dark Angels still maintain a long battle record.

I agree more or less completely with your last paragraph though.

Please, everyone knows that they're Gay Native American Teutonic Knights of the Round Table Space Jews.

Though I really think they should give up the NA theme to the Raven Guard. They already keep little skull totems - might as well give them something aside from burds.

A rare example of a modest and well learned DA fag.

They got trcked into decimating the most loyal founding faction by the whispers of a minor warp entity, thats how fucking retarded the Dark Angels are.

Hopefully they'll drive the rock into a star to ensure their fucking retardation doesnt get any other loyalists killed.

Utterly pathetic

I fluff my "succesor" chapter out so that they hunt the fallen, but don't kill those fallen that can be redeemed. Instead swear their origin to secrecy and return them to active duty. Murder the shit out of any that have fallen to chaos.

>Utterly pathetic
If they manage to get other loyalists killed so easily despite being utterly pathetic, doesn't it make those even more pathetic?

>Murder the shit out of any that have fallen to chaos.
But user, they all DID fall into service to the Ruinous Powers, during the Fall of Caliban. They all consciously rejected the Emperor's holy light, and pledged their allegiance to a damned world, a damned beast inhabiting it and an unholy overbuffed abomination that Chaos has turned Luther into. That goes about a dozen steps beyond any sort of redemption that leaves you alive. And then goes on a mile or two.

What next? Redeem Black Legionaries?

The changeling tricks even the chaos gods. Quit being such a faggot. That daemon is good at what it does.

> Trust your friend
> He stabs you in the back
> PADEDIC :DDDDDD
Maybe if the antag was a character out of some shitty battle shonen

>#notallFallen
Not that I don't believe you, but do you have any source/explanation for that? I'd get those that arrived in matterium recently, but to survive for a longer period of time everything other CSM have to, except you're alone and hunted by an entire Legion, makes you a pretty hard motherfucker.

I don't know a ton about dark angels in particular, but Space Marine chapters usually maintain a small army of human servants, so it's possible.

That books been retconned into an allegory that they tell initiates

> Trust your friend
Bullshit. Nobody trusts the Dark Angels, ever. That's the single most hammered point about them, ever - they are paranoid and make everyone around them paranoid, no one ever greets them with a warm embrace and instead all their allies constantly expect DA to abandon/turn on them.

So yeah, I'm calling the backstab approach complete and utter bullshit. It's more likely that entering full PURGING mode gives them Ultramar-grade plot armour.

> entering full PURGING mode gives them Ultramar-grade plot armour
Well, either that, or whoever they purge are indeed such insufferable weaklings that their mere inefficiency can be considered a treachery.

According to their fluff )from the 6th edition codex I think) they turn all failed aspirants into lobotomised servitors and use them in place of serfs so there is no chance of someone overhearing anything around them.

>Nobody trusts the Dark Angels, ever.
Except that IG regiment from Azrael's short story - they were so happy to fight alongside them you could see the betrayal coming a mile away.

It's not that they're gentle lambs or anything - they're just not the most powerful CSM out there. The only danger that the Fallen really present is those of a single Chaos Space Marine (admittedly of pre-Heresy stock), on top of the chance they could ruin the Dark Angels. They might manage to lead an army of cultists, or find a group of other Fallen and form a small warband, but more often than not they're alone.

Granted, some Fallen were Captains in their day, like Zeriah. Some Fallen were former Standard Bearers like Obidiah Hrakon, or Librarians. But there is also a chance that the Fallen in question is just an average line marine with at best 200 years of experience, and on top of that, the fact that the Fallen were scattered across space and time means that some may have been around since the first Fallen was caught, while others are only just returning to the materium. Some might take years to catch or millennia, while most are probably caught very quickly, since the DA and their successors spread themselves out and devote a lot of time to this search.

>the best Space Marine chapters period, rivaled only with the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and Ultramarines.
I actually hate them as much as your average Veeky Forumsman, but the Void Poodles are objectively the best space marines after the GK.
There is a reason they were the Emperor's executioners.

My DA successor chapter lives on France in space, want to live up to their primarch's more noble traits, and try to be moderate on the whole "Fallen" thing. Good or not?

Can some of you fluff savvy DA lovers please explain to me what the Watchers in the Dark are (or at least what theories about them are currently popular)?

Are they some sort of warp beasts given that Caliban was a chaos infested shithole?

>objectively the best
no

OBJECTIVE LIST:
#1: Ultramarines
#2: Blood Angels

*power gap*

#3: Star Wuffs and Dank Angels

#REDACTED#: Gay Kites

They're aliens. Aliens who hate Chaos, and are the best Spanish guitar players in the galaxy. They seem fond of the Dangles, but the Dangles pretend they're non-existence. They have to warn new recruits not to mess with the Watchers or the recruit disappears forever. I don't know if all sons of El'Johnson get them or if it's just the parent chapter themselves.

That and calling Exterminatus is a really easy way to get on fellow Inquistor's shit list.

Which is an easy way to get excommunicated and lose your Inquistor title (and your life)

>minor warp entity
>The Changling

Pick one.

To be fair, the IG are probably happy to fight along side ANY Space Marine chapter.

Yeah, real sorry we ate most of your friends. No. Seriously. We didn't mean to or wanted to. It's a condition we have, and we try to control it. Your commissar shouldn't have bathed in sweet and sour sauce.

>Be eaten by vile xenos and increase their biomass.
-or-
>Be rescued (and eaten) by the Emperor's own Angels of Death.

It's what the Emperor would've wanted. The Flesh Tearers are just doing their part to weaken the Tyranids.

Well now you know why they call themselves "Alpha legion" when 1st chapter is Dark Angels.

Was the Ultramarines 1st Company ever singled out as being good? Their most notable action was all dying at once at the northern polar fortress and spending centuries rebuilding.

>does the degree of guilt of this world versus the amount the Imperium cares about it justify the paperwork I will have to fill out

french dark angels rings pretty well with me user, you did well replacing the green with blue, perhaps add some white?

I like it; fits the Catholic theme.

I decided to go with a bit of a Greco-Persian theme. Which I know goes against the more Catholic style of the Dark Angels, probably more in line with the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, but I'm tired of 90% of the Imperium being Generic Europe, and I ended up splitting the Dark Vengeance set with a friend, so I'm working with what I've got.

It ain't a greater daemon friend

>france
>catholic

Fucking what?

>funny hats
>no berets
>sandwich boards
>not kiosks
>aprons
>no 'kiss le cook'
>sword
>not power baguette

Do you even cheese-eating surrender monkey?

>no firearms

Finally!

>1 of the 4 gods
>also-ran

Pick one.

They're part of the cabal, an ancient anti-chaos organisation that wanted to destroy humanity to weaken chaos. The first attempt major at doing this was to let horus win the heresy, believing that the infighting after which would weaken both humanity and chaos.

Nowadays they see the path humanity is taking as one that will lead to chaos winning overall and are trying to combat the decay that's happening amongst the imperium, as doing so directly combats chaos. It wouldn't surprise me if they pulled some deus ex machina thing which has it turn out that most major STC finds in the 41st millennium were because of the cabal.

Basically, the alpha legion are the most loyalist chaos dudes ever, with the dark angels only coming in at a close second.

HH Lore says that they're aliens that are part of the Cabal, but personally I think that's a little stupid since the DA already have enough heresies. The fact that nothing is said about how they survive or if they even exist outside of the Rock convinces me further that they're probably just a manifestation of the DA's guilt - or maybe they were aliens that existed on Caliban, but their presence lingers on like ghosts. If they're warp-tainted beasts like the rest of Caliban's monsters, that would make some sense, because the Warp is strongly tied to emotion, and the Rock still has some fucking strange energies about it in places.

Either way, the Watchers are small figures who are rarely seen by most of the chapter, most often being seen working for or accompanying high-ranking Dark Angels, especially of the Inner Circle. Somehow, they're closely related to the secret of the Chapter, and are deeply involved in choosing the next Supreme Grand Master - the Supreme Grand Master, i.e. Chapter Master, is usually chosen by the last SGM, but it's the Watchers in the Dark that present him with the Lion Helm and Sword of Secrets, and lead him through a spooky gate called the Arch of Truth. Some unspoken test goes on in there, and there have been occasions where the would-be GSM doesn't come back out. Somehow, their approval is necessary for whoever will be GSM. Those few that they follow that aren't GSM are known to be destined for greatness in the Chapter.

Otherwise, they mostly just bear relics, care for equipment, watch mysteriously, and make sure Lion El'Jonson's sleeping soundly.

I couldn't think of a proper gun to give him. There wasn't an option for a hand flamer.

>best spies
I'm sure a 9 foot tall musclebound, murderously fanatical zealot will be very inconspicuous

Mind posting pictures? Krumpsalot demands it.

I know there have been some Chapters so horrible commanders have refused to request aid from them, like the Angels of Redemption (the worst DA successor in my opinion - the guys who run away in the middle of battles to hunt a Fallen, and are totally willing to teamkill.)

I'd like to, but this is all I have so far, which is from me testing a paint scheme. I was planning to go with grey to kinda base them off the Guardians of the Covenant, but I didn't like how they grey made them look like unpainted plastic; so, I'm going with the above red scheme.

I may still keep that scheme for my Ravenwing equivalents, although with a darker grey.

Yes, he said it. I will try to look for it.

>‘It was not the turning of the Fallen that sealed the fate of the Dark Angels for ten thousand years. If you could see with eyes undimmed by the lies of your forebears you would know the truth, see the last ten millennia for what they are. Nearly half of the Legions joined Horus. They have been forgotten, their memory denied to the common people of the Imperium, their primarchs half-whispered names of devils and slain traitors.
>‘And there were those within the Legions recorded as loyal defenders of the Emperor that did not remain true to their oaths. They split with their brothers and gene-fathers, for Horus or personal gain, or were tricked into selfish acts by promises from the agents of the Dark Powers.’
>‘There is rumour of such in the oldest annals,’ said Azrael. ‘It does not compare to the crimes of the Fallen.’
>‘No, it does not. But also, the fact that your ancient records contain such knowledge proves that the other Legions that suffered such treachery in their ranks were of no mind to conceal it. Those that remained loyal used the evidence of deserters and defectors to reinforce their dedication to the Emperor. But in the annals of the Space Wolves and the Ultramarines, in the spoken mysteries of the White Scars and the halls of records on Baal Secundus, where does it speak of the Fallen?’
>‘Nowhere!’ Azrael was alarmed by the thought that the Dark Angels great secret might be known to anyone outside the Unforgiven.

>‘A secret kept for ten thousand years. Not strength drawn from division, but shame. A shame multiplied every day by your denial to the Imperium and yourselves. The crime for which you must atone is not the turning of the Fallen, but the decision to conceal it. That first lie, that the Dark Angels had remained loyal, told to the primarchs of your brother Legions. Years later, a second lie, even greater than the first, told to your own warriors. When I returned to warn that the Fallen were not dead, I hoped for openness, but instead my news was greeted with distrust and secrecy. Every lie begets a new secret, every secret begets a new lie. If you capture all of the Fallen, if this moment I was to repent every sin I have knowingly committed against the Lion and the Emperor, your shame would not be ended. You carry it in your souls, not the Fallen.’
>Azrael resisted the urge to get up and strike the corrupted Dark Angel, and shook with the effort.
>‘Why do you take such umbrage at my words?’ said Cypher. ‘Dismiss them as the ranting of a Fallen. The seeds of doubt sown wildly by a traitor. You cannot argue, because in your soul you know what I say is true. Every warrior that bore your title, Supreme Grand Master, carries the guilt not of the Fallen but of every Chapter Master that has chosen a path of deceit rather than honesty.’
>‘And that would save us? To confess to ten thousand years of manipulation and secrecy? The Unforgiven would be declared Excommunicate Traitoris. Not even our cousins in the other Chapters would side with us. All of the Imperium and the Adeptus Astartes would hunt us down.’
>‘And your pride would force you to defend yourselves, rather than meekly accept your execution as you should. Deluded to the end that you were in the right, a curse on the Imperium spat from the lips of the last Dark Angel to die to a righteous blade.’

Basically, the Dark Angels made a big deal about something that's not a big deal.

I think you based like the GoCs too much.

I agree, which is also partly why is my new intended color scheme. I know red isn't a very Dark Angels color, but between the core DA colors of green, bone, and black, only green is the one I like; but I can't think of anything creative with green.

I'd like to do maybe green with gold lining and dark grey or black inserts, but that's the Salamanders.

No they don't. We've seen explicitly that a SINGLE Fallen is often enough to cause entire planets or SYSTEMS to fall to Chaos Taint. The Dark Angels serve as a self-healing mechanism, their constant hunt for the Fallen constantly burns out Fallen, thereby preventing greater damage to the Imperium from mass insurrection.

Also, Space Marines abandon mortals all the time. It's actually the "feel-good" Chapters that do more harm to the Imperium. Space Marines are a critical resource that only numbers a bit over a million. The likes of the Salamanders or Lamenters should be sanctioned for wasting the Emperor's Gene-Seed, ten thousand mortal men are not even close to the worth of a single Space Marine. Their lives are to be cautiously spent to buy the species more time to survive, not to save civilians who are ultimately worthless.

Instead of sperging with bait, howbout you actually name one time when Dark Angels fired upon loyalist Space Marines without valid cause.

Oh, and pic related doesn't even exist anymore, the Imperial Fists all got killed off during a mass tactical blunder that cost 999 marines.

>The Emperor
>Shooting his most loyal son
You are literally retarded user. More than any other Primarch, the Lion was the most loyal and most obedient of all the Emperor's sons, more so even than Rogal Dorn. The Lion was surrounded by Chaos upon his arrival on Caliban, yet rebuked it all, and even told the Gods themselves to piss off as the only thing he desired was to serve the God Emperor.

Fuck the modern Lion is a borderline Mary Sue these days considering he's around as incorruptible as Sanguinius, possibly more so, the most tactically brilliant Primarch, the Primarch with the most areotech, the Primarch with the most generalized and adaptable Legion, and either as loyal or more loyal than Rogal Dorn. His only flaw is that he has crippling social disorders that render him and autistic shut-in only worsened when his first father figure, Luther, almost assassinated him and thus sent him into a paranoid spiral as he stopped trusting everybody but the Emperor.

I don't think the Inner Circle is going to send you a CD letter first since I used blue and grey with my color scheme.

>The way I've been interpreting the Dark Angels' "big secret" now is not really the civil war on Caliban and the Fallen themselves, but more the number of very questionable things they've done to try and hide those secrets.
I actually like to think of it as a lie gone too far.

They lied that anything happened on Caliban, so then they had to do a cover up, so then they had to try to silence anyone (like the Errants) who might know what happened, then they had to cover up those crimes (like killing Knights Errant), then they had to silence people who knew about THOSE crimes

Today the DAngles probably spend more time covering up their own crimes against the Imperium than actually fighting its enemies, in a tragic story of what can happen when you lie too much

Probably not. I decided to go with it because I realized that most other First Founding chapters don't really have a common color scheme among their successors; it really just seems to be the Dark Angels and the Blood Angels, of the chapters known. And even the former has some more divergent of the colors, like the Guardians of the Covenant.

So I just decided to go with the red. I like how it'll stick out more on the table, anyway.

See, this would've been a great message - a self-centered shame that's borne out of pride of being the First Legion, rather than actual legitimate fears of being seen as traitors - if Gav Thrope hadn't undermined it by having the modern Dark Angels being the cause of the past Fallen scattering in the first place.

I'll post the C&D once I get it. I call my chapter the Tundra Talons and I went for an artic themed color scheme.

Imageries of dreams reveal a gracious age:
Black armour, falling lace, and altar lights at morn.
The courtesy of saints, their gentleness and scorn,
Lights on an earth more fair, than shone from Plato's page:
The courtesy of knights, fair calm and sacred rage:
The courtesy of love, sorrow for love's sake borne.
Vanished, those high conceits! Desolate and forlorn,
We hunger against hope for the lost heritage.
Gone now, the cavern work! Ruined, the golden shrine!
No more the glorious organs pour their voice divine;
No more the frankincense drifts through the Holy Place:
Now from the broken tower, what solemn bell still tolls,
Mourning what piteous death? Answer, O saddened souls!
Who mourn the death of beauty and the death of grace.

Lionel Johnson is a pretty good choice for the motifs of the HH, imo.

I'm guessing the thing with the Dark Angels and the Fallen is that they're the Loyalist Legion who had the largest amount of Marines turn Traitor in addition to their entire homeworld. Not to mention they lost said homeworld because of those actions.

Other Legions may have had Marines turn Traitor, but it was probably not in great numbers because the Marines that ended up going against their Legion were stuff like garrison forces and far flung fleets.

Maybe it takes away from the Dark Angels a bit, but it also makes a lot more sense than saying that only the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and Dark Angels had Marines who went against their own Legions and the other thirteen remained insanely loyal regardless of whether they were part of the main fleet or stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Dark Angels represent Israel, which means they will probably kill you and steal your money. Just look at every one of their names except the bug chaser Lionel Johnson, they're all figures from the Jewish bible or Jewish mythology: Azrael, Naaman, Asmodai, Ezekiel. It's also why they're the first chapter. Judaism predates Christianity and they were the first people chosen by God. Oy vey!

>fired upon loyalist space marines without valid cause

you dumb team-killing heretical nigger, firing upon loyalist space marines never has valid cause

>pic related doesn't even exist anymore
>Imperial Fists all got killed off
>tactical blunder that cost 999 marines

they got wiped out due to their entire chapter being committed to a galactic-empire destroying force by bureaucrats, the high lords ordered the entire chapter to fight at that world, refusing an order from the high lords is heresy, and even then they did a pretty damn good job at it: they survived having their whole fleet (save the Phalanx and its ships) and much of their ground forces being ripped apart by gravitational upheavals that were unpredictable, built a fucking fortress out of alien city-flesh and rock where they made a glorious last stand, the Imperial Fists held true to their vows and died honourable and bad ass deaths, even though people speculate the Fists Exemplar takes over, I doubt it, they have plenty of Imperial Fists gene-stock, and even if they did get replaced who cares? It has only been 2k years since the second founding, there won't be any gene changes really and they are all sons of Dorn just wearing different heraldry and having different combat and cultural creeds, genetically they are practically still the same

tdlr; you are a dumb DAfagcuntrag who supports a heretical chapter (more like warband) that team kills for stupid reasons and is full of pretentious faggots, the biggest dicks of the old legions that nobody else likes, and who suck almost as much cock as the furries in power armour do

>you dumb team-killing heretical nigger, firing upon loyalist space marines never has valid cause

10/10 would crusade with

I'm pretty sure Lorgar, probably the most evil and rotten primarch there ever was, says that the only primarch that could never be corrupted was Sanguinius, Lionel was loyal af, but he was autistic loyal, like Dorn, and I doubt he was more than Dorn, Dorn was so loyal that his loyalty defined him.

my nigga, son of Dorn broFIST!

Also Curze who hated Dorn said to Lionel that Dorn was perfect in loyalty during their little Thramas Crusade chat.

>firing upon loyalist space marines never has valid cause
Space Wolves having a daemon infested Homeworld threatening to subsume the whole system into chaos warpfuckery is valid cause.

>saying space wolves are loyal
the space yiffs are just as heretical as you robe wearing faggots: they go against the high lords and the inquisiton, are mutants, they're hardly shining examples of being loyal, theyre just allowed to exist because they help the imperium of man, like the mitochondria/chloroplasts in a eukaryotic cell.