MTG Magic The Gathering Ask A Judge - Post Independence Day Edition

At what point do I have to flash in strangelhold (I run vernal equinox, shut up) in order to prevent my opponent from getting his free turn with beacon of tomorrows? Does it have to be while the spell's on the stack, or just anytime before he starts the extra turn?

Just any time before that turn actually begins. No matter when Stranglehold hit the board the game is going to create that extra turn when Bacon of Tomorrows resolves, but with Stranglehold on board that extra turn won't HAPPEN. He'll go to start it and it'll just get skipped.

I like how all those judges got banned just for being members of a facebook group

Yeah, that caused quite the feather-ruffling amongst a lot of the Judge community.

When you sacrifice a creature for Emerge, is it's Emerge cost reduced by the sacrificed creatures mana cost (i.e. including it's mana symbols) or just the sacrificed creatures converted cost?

I know there aren't official rulings on this as of yet but I'm willing to take your judges intuition as gospel.

whuzzawhat?

user, it literally says "converted mana cost" in the reminder text (which is on every single emerge card spoiled so far). Also, I'm pretty sure it goes over that in the mechanics article.

This doesn't take judge's intuition. This takes RTFC.

>become proficient.

kek'd

shhhhhh.

oops ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just converted.

To be fair, reminder text has exactly zero rules meaning, and has been a bit misleading on complicated mechanics in the past.

I know, but they're generally not wrong about things like mana cost vs converted mana cost.
"Your creatures can help you cast this spell".

Short version: Apparently someone in the US Southeast region was getting cards leaked to them by a WOTC employee for a couple of years- mostly cards that were complicated rules-wise. That person would share the cards with the higher-ups of the region to discuss them and the rules and policy and stuff, in a private facebook chat group... thing.

A bit before Oath of the Gatewatch hit, someone from that group shared two cards with someone OUTSIDE the group: Kozilek, the Great Distortion and Mirrorpool, showing the new colorless mana symbol. WotC went apeshit, suspended the outside-the-group guy for life for sharing them on twitter (which got reduced down to 3, then 2, then 1 year), and also suspended literally every Judge in the chat group for 6 months. That was every single L3 (save one) in the entire multi-state region, and a lot of the senior L2s.

After about... a month or two of being suspended, WotC rescinded the suspension and struck it from their records, but it really pissed them (and a lot of outside-the-region folks like me) off that WotC reacted that way. It also added fuel to the fire that is the current lawsuit against WotC.

The land continues to burnnnnn

WOTC has such bad PR, it's kinda hilarious.

There used to be (might still be?) a website that was just a counter of "how many days since WotC fucked up".

It's been about one a month for the last 18 or so.
I just don't get it.
I work in a game store. My boss, who has been in the business for a couple decades, knows lots about WOTC and what goes on there. It's a shitfest.

To be fair, some of it is poor intra-office communication. One of the big SNAFUs recently was the 'proxy' thing, where Organized Play/WPN had been telling people for literal years that proxy events were 100% fine as long as nobody tried to sanction them and nobody was trying to pass the 'proxies' off as real cards in sales/trades. Then someone asked the wrong person, who said that a store hosting proxy events would lose their sanctioning, and everyone went crazy because some stores had been doing it for years, and suddenly the rules changed on them.

It turns out (if I'm remembering right) that either that person thought they were being asked about sanctioning proxy events, or was just terribly mistaken.

I like your totally delusional insistence that the Multiverse is not a thing and that planeswalking is just magical interplanetary travel.
It's funny.
Judge, I just wanted to say thanks for all the time and effort you've spent making Veeky Forums less shitty at Magic.
Kaladesh memes notwithstanding.

"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted". I barely consider it 'effort' because I genuinely love doing this. But thank you for your sentiment- I truly appreciate it.

I mean, a lot of their problems would be solved by disallowing anyone but their actual PR people from posting anything official on the internet.

But their office culture is apparently completely fucked up.

I wouldn't know, to be honest. I just know they seem to have a propensity for putting their collective feet in their collective mouths. Also that they take to technology like a fat kid takes to kale.

Basically, everyone who's worked there for a while is a power-tripping asshole to some degree. Also, your pull is based on your number of minions, regardless of experience, seniority, etc. The executive management is just kinda inept. Hopefully this will change with the new CEO.

Again, the term plane was coined back when the Magic lore was yet to be solidified.
You sound awfully taxed about it I don't know why

what lawsuit?

Multiple judges have entered into a class-action lawsuit against WotC. The core argument of the lawsuit is that judges are employees, not independent contractors, for a number of reasons. As such, judges should be afforded certain rights, protections, and benefits that we are not currently afforded.

I think if that ends in "favor" of the judges, it will likely just kill the judge program.

Nah, because without the judge program basically everything higher than the FNM level completely falls apart.

Depending on how much it'd cost WOTC to provide benefits, they might be okay with that for a short time while they "restructure" it - likely for the worse.

They wouldn't have to, is the thing.

One of the things called for in the suit (which is public record since it was filed) is for WotC to create a wholly separate nonprofit organization to 'run' the Judge Program. A nonprofit can legally have unpaid volunteers and not need to provide them with the things an employer has to provide; WotC can't, since they're for-profit.

The implication is if these people win, that means the rulings will encompass the whole judges in the judge program, even those who are okay with the current condition.
It will mean wotc have to either take everyone of them as employee, or 'fire' everyone.

Well, technically only the judges in the US.

So what, are we going to see an influx of outsourced judge positions to countries like india with cheaper labor costs?

Nah. I mean, I don't doubt you (much). I'm just amused by your pointing it out. It's a bit like insisting Pluto is a planet.
Which, well, yeah, but a Dwarf Planet. You can be nearly correct while being outdated.

>Dwarf Planet
>Dwarf Plane
>Segovia

IT ALL FITS

So what the hell happened with Pro Tour Sydney and work visas?

What happened like "was there a resolution", or like "what was the issue"? Because I don't know if we've gotten a resolution yet.

If it was the latter rather than the former (and hell, for those of you who don't know what we're on about): Pro Tour Sydney is coming up in just about a month. With very little notice (as in, we just learned about this LAST WEEK), the Australian government types have decided that traveling to Sydney to compete in the Pro Tour counts as work, and all the players will need to apply for short-term work visas, when normally for international travel a tourist visa is fine. This is very troubling, for several reasons:

1) A short-term work visa costs considerably more than a tourist visa. I heard someone saying around 200 USD, which all the competitors would have to pay before even TRYING to win money.
2) The visa takes about 4 weeks to get processed, which is a little terrifying when you're about four and a half weeks out from the event. You might find out a few days beforehand that your visa was denied, or it might get hung up somewhere and not get to you in time for the event.
3) The length of stay for the short-term work visa is much smaller than for a tourist visa, so people who were planning on getting there ahead of the event (or staying after) for a little vacation are having to scramble to change their plans

In their defense, WOTC had no real way of seeing this coming, and are doing their level best to try to either fix it or help the players who are getting thunderfucked.

Yup, sounds like the Australian immigration department.

Remember that this is the government department that wanted it made illegal to report on human rights violations in mandatory detention centres for refugees.
These people hate people is what I'm saying.

It's really the timing of it that's the biggest kick in the cock. Had we found out "BTW, you need a work visa" two or three months out, there would have been plenty of time to get that sorted (or for Wizards to figure out how to make it work without work visas), but barely a month and change away from the event has left a lot of people panicking.

What's worse is that this is the last Pro Tour of the 2015-2016 season, which means plenty of pros can't afford to miss this one because they need to battle for the Pro Points or the national rankings.

Yup. Yup.
Our immigration department's shitty fingerprints are all over this one.
Fuck.

What really sucks is that Helene heavily implied that this SNAFU may very well have torpedoed any chance of there being future PTs in Oz.

Well... Hell. I really want to go to an Australian PT and I dunno if I can go see this one.
Fucking gummint.

This looks... like it has memory issues.

Eh, it might be a bit of a pain in Limited, but I feel like in Constructed it's easy enough to just bring along some pennies or glass beads and toss them on the things that the Mass slaps so everyone remembers.

That thing is going to be hell on aggro decks.

So. What if the thing has +2/+0 and first strike and is blocked by a 1/4? Does the 1/4 die after it becomes a copy or does the damage not carry over?

it dies

If permeating mass has first strike and attacks wurmcoil engine does the permeating mass deal it's damage and the wurmcoil then becomes a copy and does its damage and they both survive and are both permeating masses?

The only ways to remove damage marked on something are regenerating it, ending the turn, or forcing it to become a new game object via flicker etc. Permeating mass does none of these, so damage will stay marked on the new form. If you were to say, bolt a creature and then hit it with your mass it would die, no matter how big its ass was prior to the bolt.

Yes

>First Strike damage step
>Permeating mass deals damage
>Wurmcoil engine becomes a copy
>Normal damage step
>Permeating mass (formerly wurmcoil) deals damage
>Both creatures are 1/3s with 1 damage marked on them

With the new Mirrorwing Dragon, does it trigger if you redirect an opponents spell to it?

No, it only triggers if a spell is CAST that targets it. When you redirect, the spell has already been cast, redirection doesn't cast it again, so the dragon doesn't trigger. Notable that copying spells on the stack that target Mirrorwing also won't trigger it.

Well, you don't attack creatures, but both survive as Permeating Masses. The OG Mass will poke Wurmcoil and instantly turn it into a Mass. Then Masscoil hits back for 1, killing neither (and gaining no life)

1/4 takes 3 damage and becomes a 1/3. Then, when SBAs are checked, it dies because it's a 1/3 with 3 damage on it.

Only on cast, not on becoming target.

If I drop a clone targeting say, a tarmogoyf that has previously been hit by a permeating mass does my clone become a tarmogoyf or a permeating mass? I *think* both effects apply in the same layer which would make my clone a mass, but I have trouble wrapping my mind around layers sometimes.

Clones don't target.

Also, copy effects pick up other copy effects, so your Cloneogoyf would be a Permeating Cloneogoyf.

>The OG Mass will poke Wurmcoil and instantly turn it into a Mass
So stack isn't used for the transformation effect?
>when SBAs are checked, it dies because it's a 1/3 with 3 damage on it
What if the 1/4 becomes the target of giant growth before damage is assigned, does it become a 4/6 and survives?

>So stack isn't used for the transformation effect?
The stack is used. Permeating Mass' triggered ability is placed on the stack (and resolves, presumably) during the first strike damage step, before non-first strike damage is assigned
>What if the 1/4 becomes the target of giant growth before damage is assigned, does it become a 4/6 and survives?
Yes.

Well, technically it pokes the Wurm and then that puts a triggered ability on the stack, and once that trigger resolves the Wurm becomes a Permeating Mass. But all of that happens before we get to the point where the Wurm's dealing damage.

If the 1/4 gets Growth'd before damage, then you'll have a 3/3 slap it for 3 and turn it into a 1/3 in layer 7b, but it gets the boost from GG in layer 7c, making it a 4/6 with 3 damage on it. It will NOT die, and then will slap the Permeating Mass back for 4, killing it.

Alright, thanks for the clarifications.

Okay. So a 3/3 with first strike and a 4/1 are on the field. If I dromoka's command and have the 3/3 with first strike fight the 4/1 does that mean my creature survives because of first strike?

Nope. Fight =/= combat. First strike, flying, trample, things like that don't factor in at all. The only things that factor into a fight are things that work with DAMAGE, specifically. Lifelink, deathtouch, protection, things like that.

I see that level up creatures are grated redundant abilities as they advance ("Hada Spy Patrol can't be blocked.", etc.).
I assume this means level up creatures lose their old level specific abilities as they advanced.
So could this guy not be used as a madness outlet once it reaches level 3?

Correct. Basically Cryptologist has an ability that says "As long as this creature has at least 1 Level Counter on it, but no more than 2 level counters on it, it has 'T: Draw a card, then discard a card' and is 0/1."

As soon as you hit 3 counters, it switches over to "As long as Enclave Cryptologist has 3 or more level counters on it, it has 'T: Draw a card.' and is 0/1".

Hopefully this doesn't sound too stupid. But this is a question on one of the new cards. "Noosegraf Mob enters the battlefield with five +1/+1 counters on it.

Whenever a player casts a spell, remove +1/+1 counter from Noosegraf Mob. If you do, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield."

So, casting essence flux on it. It will make it re-enter the battlefield with 5 counters, correct?

And to follow that, will casting the essence flux on it, will that spawn a zombie from its ability, or will it not get a chance to?

And lastly, if you cast essence flux on it, while it has 1 counter left. Since all spells remove a counter from it, will it die before essence flux brings it back?

Yes to all three

>pic unrelated

Slightly weirder question.

I know that some abilities can fail it certain changes have happened since their activation (no targets left, creature with the ability died and needs to be around for the ability to work, etc.). What all conditions cause this? Is one of them losing the ability between activating it and resolving it?

i have a skin invasion on a sanguinary mage
languish resolves
sanguinary mage goes to graveyard
skin invasion comes back as 3/4
languish says "all creatures get -4/-4 until end of turn"
does skin invasion flip get -4/-4, or only creatures that were on the battlefield when languish resolved?
new player, sorry if dumb question

Casting flux will trigger it, you'll remove a counter and make a Zed. Then Flux will resolve and blink it. It will enter with 5 counters, because that's just how Noosegraf enters the battlefield. If you cast Flux while it's at one counter, it'll get removed before Flux resolves and die. Then Flux will be countered due to having no legal targets.

Good holy god that's a high resolution Spell Snip.

The only things that I can think of that make abilities fail are having no legal targets, the instruction being impossible to carry out (like exchanging a permanent that's no longer on the board with something else), or failing an 'intervening if' clause for certain triggers.

Losing an ability on a permanent after that ability has been activated or triggered doesn't stop the ability on the stack.

Only creatures that were on the field at the time. When things like Languish have an effect on a stated set of objects, that set is 'locked in' only once, and only applies to them.

Also, not a stupid question. DRIVING HOME NOW, more thread when I get there.

>No more PTs in Australia
Thank fucking god. I knew they can't have any high-level events in Austria (The euro country, no L) because of gambling laws, and it was so frustrating people quoting aussie rules shit at me.

Now I can at least try to keep them seperate, but they're banned there as well.

>Eh, it might be a bit of a pain in Limited
topkek

Weird cubes with both Permeating Mass and Morph/Manifest aside, people will just turn the face down in Limited.

Wait really, first strike doesn't work on fight. Damn, you learn something new every day.

Yeah, the word 'fight' makes a lot of people think it functions like combat, but it doesn't.

Question on that
Say my opponent blocks this creature, his creature then becomes a copy of PM, but if it then dies, does it regain its original form or does it stay PM until the game ends?

I would believe it regain its original form, but I'm not entirely sure

Once it leaves play, it'll lose all memory of having been a Permeating Mass and will be whatever it's printed as.

Adding onto this. Does a flicker effect such as eerie interlude return my creature to the battlefield as. It's original or as a copy?

It's probably pretty obvious but I'm stuck right now:

If I have a Rattlechains in play and my opponent wants to destroy one of my creatures, can I flash in pic related ("Sacrifice Selfless Soul: Creatures you control gain indestructible until end of turn. ") and sacrifice it before my creature gets destroyed or do I lose any kind of priority after playing it without being able to sacrifice?

As soon as objects leave zones, they lose all memory of what they were in that zone. The effect ends the second his creature leaves the board.

Original. Copy effect ended when it left the board and became a new object.

All players get priority after an object on the stack resolves. You can respond to their spell with Selfless Soul, and then after it resolves crack it.

yes you can

It'll return as it's normal self. Again, as soon as it leaves play it becomes an entirely new object that doesn't have any correlation for being hit by PM.

You can flash it in, and then after that resolves you'll get a chance to sac him. Your opponent WILL get priority, but even if they point a kill spell at it you can sac it in response.

Who would point a kill spell at it then? Wait til it sacrifices itself and in response kill it.

Doesn't work. Sacrificing selfless soul is a cost - by the time you get the chance, it's already in the yard.

You can't. By the time you have a chance to respond to the activation of the ability, it's on the stack and all the costs have been paid for- that is to say, the creature has been sacrificed. You can't jump in 'before' they activate it during the activation, because Magic is not a game of reflexes.

Wait, then if I remove it from the yard does that cancel its ability? I'm grasping at straws here

Nope. Only way to stop a non-targeted activated ability is to counter it directly with something like Stifle, or to render what it does pointless with some other effect.

Keep in mind, you can potentially kill OTHER creatures with selfless soul's ability on the stack - they'll die before soul makes everything indestructible.

You can also point kill spells at soul to make them sac it at awkward times, like the end of a turn.

If a Permeating Mass deals damage to something that's enchanted with Ensoul Artifact and then Ensoul Artifact is destroyed, does the artifact it was enchanting remain a creature?

Yep, because it's been made a copy of a creature way down in layer 1, which is 3 layers before the animation effect from Ensoul Artifact.

TYes, it remains a creature. Also of note:
If a Permeating Mass deals damage to something that's enchanted with Ensoul Artifact, Ensoul Artifact will get destroyed for being equiped to an illegal target.

Almost right. It's never equipped to anything, and it's not destroyed, it's just put into the graveyard.

if I change permeating mass' base P/T and then have it deal damage, will that change the P/T of the things that turn into PM?

Nope. Copy effects ignore everything that changes your cards, except other copy effects. Your Permeating Mass will turn other creatures into 'vanilla' Permeating masses.

Not a rules question,
what's your opinion on using Rattlechains to flash Permeating Mass into play?