Dungeon Life Quest (DLQ) 75 - The Swinging Scythe Edition

Did I fucking stutter?

and here we go full circle back to the characterization issue. First Bri, now River.

Nobody really wants to be the one to definitively decide. Not us, not you. Roll it.

I'm happy to decide, if user can't, or won't. But I figured folks might like the chance. And I'll confess to a certain curiosity.

I'm angry because I'm not getting the D right now.

>Because Bri keeps telling me we're fucking family and then foisting me off on trash-tier jobs that nobody else wants to do. She calls herself my big sister, gives me goddamn shit for actual guidance. She calls it trusting me to make decisions. Decisions she knows I do NOT have the capacity to make, but would rather not have on her own conscience. I shouldn't be SHOCKED, considering how my LAST family worked out, but whoops, look at me, I accidentally forgot to always expect the worst always.

Second

wew lad

Probably not a great time for a question like this vox, not at the start of a thread and not at 4 or 3 in the morning.

>the one vote that actually looks like it actually could be something said in-character and not a joke

>that's the one you single out as shitposting

biiiiit on the edgy side.

I mean, the whole mary sue thing was a bit of a problem, but this is going to the entire other extreme.

I'm not singling it out as shitposting...

I just said wew lad

if it was shitposting i'd say this is bait or something.

Look man, it's been bugging me forever. Bri is SHIT family. What she claims is trusting people with responsibility reads to me as "I don't want to have to be responsible for that myself", and fucking NOBODY is calling her out on it.

While I'd like to say that Bri is a mary fucking sue, what exact moments are you talking about with foisting responsibility on others?

I am also curious about this. This's the first time I've heard this particular bit of feedback.

She comes across to me as more just thoughtless. She's always had to make tough decisions fast, and so when she drops her troops behind enemy lines, as it were, she doesn't think she has to tell them what decisions to make. She assumes everyone is like herself, no matter how many times that assumption is proven wrong.

>how many times that assumption is proven wrong.

What?

Didn't Nate and Amy do fine on their own?

What examples are you thinking of?

I'm honestly debating leaving this open overnight just to see how the discussion on the matter develops. Though may be right; I likely timed this poorly as well.

Decisions, decisions...

>This's the first time I've heard this particular bit of feedback.
not really, it's just the same feedback run through maximum cynicism.

>hmmm I don't like the player input I am getting

>I'll wait until I get the player input I do want

Yeah, that certainly isn't blatant railroading.

Literally what user

>Probably rewrite it less teen angsty, but seconded

> Fascinated with the topic at hand and don't want to cut discussion on it short
> Railroading

Welcome back, my old friend. The salt shaker's at your usual table.

oh it's this fucking guy again.

just leave it till the morning vox.

Oh please. You wouldn't know what railroading was if you were in a Gygax adventure.

I feel like this is completely off base, if Bri was healthy she'd be the first person to volunteer for this job. The only times she's delegated tasks has been when she wouldn't be good for the roll or she's been physically unable to perform that task.

You're projecting something here user, I'm not sure what you're so mad about, but most of what you're presenting here is fallacious bullshit.

*role

No, Bri didn't go because she used up all her nat 20s the day before

...What?

You legitimately typed

>I may have timed this poorly

you got a legitimate, in-character (sorta) write-in and its been seconded twice now.

Just give set times for votes. Make them 5 hours or variable but at least say in advance how long you're giving a vote.

Or just veto that user's write-in because you think it's out of character.

Not the angry user but maybe River is feeling insecure of her place in the family and where she stands ? Is she the go to for murder or unsavoury business and then left alone until the next hit ? Not being given advice of learning the darker aspects of necromancer magic and told to follow her own will ? Being left alone to clean up the dead in the cemetery for ages with only Robert for company while Bri runs around with her friends doing the more important work of cleaning up the Dungeon ?

It is only recently that River is doing anything that is truly important like helping Nathan in the clearing of teleport circles and now River is tasked with an assassination of the Daughter. Maybe she feels that her fate will always be cleaning up after others and not truly part of the la Croix family.

>not good for the roll

That's a legitimate complaint, not whatever the hell the other dude was trying to sell.

>"I'm....kind of at a loss, really. I mean, I knew wat she was asking me to do would be hard....but this is really out of my league. I was a mercenary, not an assassin, and this feels like an assassination."

>"When she said it would be hard, I didn't think she'd have me doing thing like THIS....have you ever done anythign like this? Sure, you summoned demons, but this is different."

Oh dice, roll, nat 20

got it

wasn't funny

but that's not the same as the vote up there?

Glad I don't rely on you for my self-esteem

I won't, 'cause I don't. And I can't/won't give set times for votes because quite frankly I barely have control over my life and, also, I'm a forgetful piece of shit.

I'll update before I hit bed, gonna snag some water to drink first.

This does sound similar to the current frontrunner, as suggests. Will likely fold it in if said frontrunner remains so.

Yeah, best to leave it for the bigger portion of the audience to see and input.

The seems flat out better than the extensively OOC-salty previous runner.

They're on the similar vein, but the later is better fit with characterisation.

Rolled 3 (1d3)

fine, if it's going to be like that.

>whichever the die falls on this post

Called. Writing.

>> What?

With how we see ourselves in the people Bri keeps saving.

With how blind we were to evil before.

With how even though we've tried to change, we seem only to be good enough to kill, and unable to redeem.

With how Robert treats being a Prick like a game, when we need every one of his tricks and hints. This is actually bigger than just us becoming a full LaCroix, and the fear that we can't handle it alone, and not knowing if even sacrificing ourselves is going to be enough, and just being afraid of losing again right after we finally starting having something to lose again and being pissed at ourselves for being afraid of that.

And knowing that fear is normal, and stupid, and still not being able to stop being afraid of it.

What concerns me is how similar this is to Bri herself. And if it's similar to her, the only way for it to be different is if it ends very, very badly for River.

"Now? You want to do this now?" you demand.

You stop up short, throwing up a spray of ice, and fling a single, tarnished shard of silver into the ice, offering up a sliver of your life into it. Learning this trick without Robert noticing had been a hell of a thing; you'd been hoping to save it for later, when it was time to banish him.

But no, he wants to do this now.

The ghost screams in surprise and pain as he's pulled between two anchors - the one you just threw, and yourself. The tugging force makes him manifest, as a flickering apparition.

You tear a match from your pocket, thumb it, and light a cigarette with a soft snarl. "Fine," you tell him. "We'll do this now. Is this it? Is this my future?"

"No one told you that being part of this family would be easy," Robert says.

"No one told me I'd be doing my old job with new weapons," you snap back. "Who am I? Huh? Who am I to you? To Bri? Bri says I've got an important job to do, so she leaves me to clean up the Lichyard, with nothing but you for company. I like Split well enough but I'm a stranger there. They don't really know me. They smile and wave and leave me be, and that's no way to live."

"You mean to tell me you're feeling /unloved/?" the old ghost scoffs.

"/Don't you even start you soulless piece of shit/," you yell, without quite meaning to; your voice echoes through the vast tomb that is the Broken Jaw, returning to you across the ice. "You, of /all people/? Bri's got a kind word, a sympathetic shoulder. Nate, Amy, they've been there sometimes to make sure I'm okay, but /you/? Day in, day out, nothing but insults and /mockery/. Nothing I've /ever done/ is good enough for you. I've half a mind to drive Sleep through you and be quits with it."

"You were sentenced -"

"I was sentenced to /live/," you interrupt. "You know what a sentence is? It's a /punishment/. I was sentenced to live, for the rest of my life, with what /you/ taught me. With the things that make me wake up in cold sweats. Does that make you happy? What is it you're turning me into?"

"River," the old ghost murmurs, sorrow coloring his voice. "Why haven't you said anything before?"

"What am I supposed to say? I want to /help/. I want to /do good/. I want...I want to have a life, and a family, and I want to live up to this name I've been given but I only get trusted with important things when Bri's not there. And I love her, I really do, but is that it? Is that my life? Understudy to Brianna la Croix, professional holder of doors otherwise? That's not good enough."

"I thought she left you to your own devices because she trusts you," Robert says quietly. "I learned on my own."

"Well maybe I don't want that! Maybe there's a reason we started sticking together as a fucking family. AND IF YOU REMEMBER, YOU TURNED INTO A GOD DAMN PULP FICTION VILLAIN AND MURDERED A STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT CHUNK OF A FUCKING CONTINENT!"

Your mentor flinches, as if struck, and the fury drains away, slowly. You sink to your knees and let the cigarette drop from your lips, to burn uselessly on the ice.

"Who am I?" you ask helplessly. "If I touch that little box in the family shrine, will it say I'm a la Croix? Or just the pet you keep around to clean up after the purebloods?"

"Never," the old man says firmly. "River, you have been the best student I have ever trained. What I've put you through would have killed most of the others and driven the rest to madness."

"I want you to examine that sentence and tell me where the morally wrong part is," you mutter in a hollow voice.

"What is it you want?" Robert asks. "You can talk to Brianna about your...your duties. What can /I/ do for you?"

> "Go away."
> "...Just stay quiet for now. I need time to think."
> "I want to learn something else."
> "I want some gods-damned respect. Is that such a hard concept?"
> "I don't know what I want."
> Write-in?

And now, I sleep. Votes remain open.

Questions, comments, discussion, feedback, and criticisms remain welcome and appreciated.

Thank you all for reading and participating!

>> Write-in?

I want you to help me escape being in Brianna's shadow.

And I'm not talking about lesbian sex with Kat.

>"River, you have been the best student I have ever trained. What I've put you through would have killed most of the others and driven the rest to madness."
>"I want you to examine that sentence and tell me where the morally wrong part is,"
I laughed

> "I want some gods-damned respect. Is that such a hard concept?"
beyond that
> "I don't know what I want."

>criticisms

I'm just sort of upset with how you took the winning vote (really, the only vote that was semi-serious) and just sort of snubbed the spirit of it. I get that, yeah, it was written in the most edgy way possible and was hoping your writing skills would fix it up or tone it down a little, but you barely considered the spirit of it.

There was a lot of anger towards Bri in that write-in that you shifted almost completely onto Robert.

The easily hateable ghost, dickish mentor guy which neither nor mention any major ire towards at all.

And it's not just that it's "railroading" or disrespecting "player input"

It's that I don't even think you know you're doing it.

You took votes that managed to say nothing but "I'm at the very least very upset with Bri" and managed to work in two compliments for her in River's rant of anger.

Bri is a Mary Sue. And it is having a noticeable effect on how you interpret shit.

My recommendation, yeah, wait until a majority of the playerbase is here so we can be almost guaranteed to choose the safe option so this at least isn't so obvious that I feel I must comment upon it.

This isn't even salt that I have anymore. It's like wet droopy sand.

IMO her problem is that she was saved and sentenced to redeem herself, she got burdened with a ghost asshole and then learned demonology, balefire and ask kinda of nasty kill-shit without so much as a "is that a good idea?", like no one really cares about her or what she does. She's still a killer and everyone wants her to be one. Why aren't they bothered? She's unable to help herself become a different or better person but who cares? No one, she's convenient as is.
Angry because she knows she shouldn't be left to her own devices, her mercenary and murderous self won't go away without outside support. She wants to change but the helplessness of knowing she is incapable must be soul crushing.

And vox, don't leave these kind of important decisions up to two or three guys at the start of a thread. Leave the votes up while you sleep or half a daysi that both the morning and night crews can chime in. The Europeans are at work right now, I'm posting on my lunch break ATM.

> "I want some gods-damned respect. Is that such a hard concept?"

>you have been the best student I have ever trained

>great, more people who want me for what I can do instead of who I am.

"I want help. Not help in learning a thousand new ways to horribly kill people. Help learning to be a decent person, which is something that you have so far proven completely unwilling to do. 'Demonology? Seems legit. Balefire? Oh sure, teach her that too. But gods forbid we try to instill some virtue or character in the person we're giving all this horrifyingly lethal instruction. Setting a positive example? Nah, fuck that.'

I want to be a good person, I want to not waste this second chance. But if I can't have that, then I'll settle for at least not ending up like you."

> "I want some gods-damned respect. Is that such a hard concept?"
>Write in
>Sound out to Bri about our insecurities, this is a talk that is a long time coming and we just did not have the courage to talk about it until now. After taking out the Daughter of course.

I'm happy he ignored most of the edge of the first one, because honestly it didn't make much in the way of sense.

The idea that Bri is putting stuff on other people because she doesn't want it on her conscience? There really isn't a whole lot from River's perspective to back that up. Putting down zombies and burying bodies in the lichyard? It's long, hard work, but it's not something that would burden a person's conscience. Going in to New Hell to stop the Traitor? Again, not exactly morally troubling. Difficult, but not on a moral level.

The fact that from her point of view she seems to mainly be for doing important stuff when Bri literally can't be there for some reason made much more sense as a reason why River would be angry. It's not that Bri asks her to do morally questionable stuff. She doesn't. It's that she's only asked to help when Bri isn't able to do something herself.

>I want to become a better person. Not a better murderer and demon bully! I was sentenced to LIVE, in my mind so that I can repent. All you do is teach me how to kill and dominate and everyone else are content to leave it at that. I want to kill the old me, the mercenary who did evil her while life. I conned my way into a life where I was in turn conned into believing that killing, raping and pillaging is alright, that it is a real way to live your life! I was ready to give up when bri found me and fucking conned me into believing that I was given a second chance! Nothing has changed, I'm still a completely rotten person and growing words every day! So gods help me what am I to do? I can't change on my own, I need someone who can actually help me with the things I need help with.

Bri guided River through killing a bound and helpless woman just to get a shadow for more power.

Bri a-ok'd the whole evil ghost thing without oversight and just rolled with River taking lessons about demonology from him.

Bri let River become a necromancer.

These things are certainly morally troubling. Enough so that while I wouldn't say they're inherently things that would make River mad they aren't out of character for it.

Happy to help sand off the edges off the front runner's post by providing rational arguments on Rivers' character.

Which is what we should all be doing, bouncing ideas off each other on characterisation no matter how offensive the source instead of focusing on the messager time and time again.

Even if River being angry seems out of the blue, it is because it has been simmering inside of her for a very long time. But all this while while she is smiling and nodding her head because she understands what Bri goes through, River does not have an outlet And Robert does not count.

She is like that friend that is in your social group that you vaguely remember and only invite to all your outings cause you hit 'send all' while writing the invitations. While you may talk to her from time to time and share a common interest, others are more engaging and often you forget to say goodbye to her after the outing.

This is what River feels constantly from the day she joins the la Croix family until now when she finally burst out as above.

I hope this gives an insight on why River suddenly got angry all of a sudden when tasked to kill the Daughter.

Let's keep the discussion going and I love your world building so far Vox !

Still not seeing where the "Decisions she knows I do NOT have the capacity to make, but would rather not have on her own conscience" that was the core of would come from. The shadow is something that Bri did herself, and that does weigh on her conscience, as shown during the fight with the Diviner. As for the necromancer and demonology bit, that was the judgment of the La Croixs in the lichyard as punishment for River's part in the Moneychanger's campaign against them. Aside from choosing to save River's life in the first place, Bri didn't have a whole lot of say in that.

>as shown during the fight with the Diviner

River wasn't there for that

>that was the judgment of the La Croixs in the lichyard as punishment for River's part

and that is the rationalization of someone trying to distance themselves from a decision they're responsible for so it doesn't burden their conscience

>Bri didn't have a whole lot of say in that.

Similar to above but shirking responsibility even harder

I would like to point out that all the points that you have stated are correct to my knowledge.

I would also like to point out that it is not only Bri that have made those decisions. Yes I am talking about us, the players, the choice makers, the hidden influence behind Bri's every choice and actions.

It is us who decided to throw River into the Lichyard to hunt zombies, it is us that made River choose of her own will to make a Shadow, to make herself stronger. It is us who decided that Robert is the best teacher to guide River down the path of necromancy. It is us who decided that River is too green to follow us into the Dungeon as our fourth team member.

Never for a moment forget that the choices we made as Bri is the choice of Bri alone. It is the collective will of the players which path the story goes and while it is a long and winding road, it has come down to the tipping point where River finally had enough.

On their own, the choices we made back then seemed innocent, even correct at the time, but put it all together and what have we ?

We have neglected River time and again while throwning her some scraps of family time to keep her satisfied, not knowing that the care we are giving her is not even close the the time we spent with Nate and Amy.

With hindsight it seems obvious River will be angry at how Bri seems to be treating her.

I am curious though, Vox, is River character arc how you foresee it heading down due to our choices or will it change significantly at certain choice paths ?

Brianna La Croix.

Brianna of the Cross.

Could there be more blatant symbolism wrapped up in that image.

Vox sometimes I think you're a genius. The Jesus imagery is perfect.

Brianna of the cross.

Brianna on the cross.

Brianna the martyr, the crucified.

The woman who dies, kills and commits dirty acts that "need doing" for the sins of the community.

La Croix itself is a shield. A delusion. It is a buffer between any true moral reflections on the evil they've wrought, intentional or accidental. They must make decisions and interfere.

Bri wants to reflect. She feels guilty. She knows there is a conscience in there that regrets its acts and no last fucking name excuses her sins.

But ultimately she believes she is La Croix. Of the cross. A name that carries such significance.

She must suffer for you by making decisions for you. They may cause you suffering, kill those close to you or be gross abuses of power but she'll never allow herself to truly take the fall or realize her /personal/ folly.

No the mere attachment of that name means she is appointed to act. She never had a choice, did she? She's La Croix!

It is a self-prescribed license to kill, choose, act. A family of eternal martyrs.

La Croix is a heavy cross to bear.

The more you blame her, the more she realizes she is doing the right thing. For someone must be hated and cursed for doing the dark, necessary things that keep our society running and surely she knows that is her role.

La Croix. Filled with the wisdom they've accrued over the ages. Ages filled with tyrants, madmen, death, destruction and injustice. It's all they've ever known. How would they conceive of an alternative where no dark deed needs doing?

And truly, why would they conceive of an alternative where there is no dark deed that needs doing? What would their purpose be then?

They are the La Croix.

Of the cross.

Imagine a world without crosses to bear.

Imagine a world without La Croix.

Break the cross!

I think you have had both too many and too few drinks.

Yeah, I'm going to have to back you up on that.

user, get off Veeky Forums and go back to bed until the fever breaks.

I'M BURNING I'M BURNING I'M BURNING

I'M BURNING FOR YOU

Vox you crazy bastard, I love you.

The stick up your ass is closer to railroading then what Vox is doing you fucking muppet.

> and that is the rationalization of someone trying to distance themselves from a decision they're responsible for so it doesn't burden their conscience

And that is the rationalization of someone who is trying to defend a garbage view that isn't actually based on anything. Your cries of "railroading" and "mary sue" were about as convincing.

You've made it very clear that you don't like Bri, and you think that she's an awful character. That doesn't mean that all the other characters are required to share your view.

Seconding this, and this also this

Batman approves.

Still it has been a while since anyone gave Bri shit for all the self destructive shit she does. At some point soon we need someone to punch her lights out and tell her to stop hiding behind her name to avoid personal responsibility.

it's been a while IRL, but inquest, she hasn't done a whole lot to deserve it.

If anything, the most recent problems stem from Lora TAKING THINGS FAR TOO FAST JESUS FUCK

Bump before bed. Vox was up pretty late, huh?

everyone was, its the nature of things here.

Wait, I don't understand. Isn't the daughter dead? She was the one who did scrying, right?

thirding

No, that's the Diviner. The Daughter is some half-angel cult leader from further down. She was the one who "employed" Jewel before she got de-aged.

didn't jewel rip out an eye?

CHERRY grabbed both of the Daughter's eyes and kept hold of them when the Daughter threw her off.

We kept them in a jar and are going to use them and the rock in the Jaw to make the Daughter's head explode via sympathetic magic.

Which actually wasn't planned on by the GM.

I mean, I kind of wonder what else he was expecting us to do with a pair of angel eyeballs, but still. We avoided the railroad.

I never understood how that plot came to hatch, or how the hell it is going to work. What is sympathetic magic? We have two necromancers, I don't even remember anyone suggesting which spell to use. What kind of sympathy are we looking at, here? Is River gonna go down there and smash her bollocks on an ice anvil and make the daughter die from amplified pain or something?

Sympathetic magic is (near as I can tell) like hollywood voodoo dolls but with emotional manipulation as well.

The rock in the Jaw is a sympathetic enhancer, strong enough to fuck with the vampires we brought to the surface without a direct link to them, so it should be easy enough to fuck with the Daughter given we have two rather important parts of her.

> "I want to learn something else."
> "I want some gods-damned respect. Is that such a hard concept?"
Basically what other anons have said: River wants to learn more than being a necromancer and demonologist, and she doesn't want to be treated like a 'family pet.'

Hm. I hope Vox will explain it before the options are presented because it's going to suck if the few people who understands it isn't here for the vote.

Third. I also want to point out what >48222932 said;
>Bri guided River through killing a bound and helpless woman just to get a shadow for more power.

Something like,
>I even made a Shadow because I thought that was what was expected, no, wanted of me as a La Croix. I've killed helpless people before, but I've never done it with such a twisted purpose like stealing their death... and now it is always next to me, every time I see my own fucking shadow I can see the look on their face as I cut them!
Is this the real punishment? Offering me redemption, salvation, sugar, spice and everything nice and then burden my soul and conscience with this shit?

Maybe my interpretation of River's character is off, but I've always seen her as a lost soul since we found her. She lost her family, the life that was waiting for her and became a monster of her own choosing from peer pressure. As she herself said, she had a feeling what she was doing was wrong but she drowned it out with sex and alcohol until all her feelings were dead, just being alive because she wasn't dead yet. Enter us, "miss second chance" offering her the sweet words she wanted to, needed to hear, and then what? Token friendship, token gratitude, token appreciation. Made her our sister but barely interact with her unless we are giving her orders. Orders that drive her ever further from her own desire to just be... normal.

River is a tragic wretch and she's heading off the deep end because through all her life all she's known are companions instead of friends, never met someone who cares about the little person inside of her. Always about her skills, her potential and how useful she is.

Any thoughts on this?

I wouldn't say it's entirely accurate from the "real" perspective, but from hers?

It could be completely plausible.

Sympathetic magic is, at it's core, based around the idea of 'sympathy'. Two different things with shared traits being compelled to have a certain reaction, using that shared trait as a bridge.

Basically it runs off the idea that having a piece of something, gives you a connection to the whole.

This was the Diviner's specialty. Using bits taken from the vampires, she made them hallucinate and bring her a piece of Brianna's hair to fuck with. This resulted in a devastating mental attack, the Bri just tanked anyway.

We're going to use sympathetic magic to effectively 'kill' the eyeballs, and thus the Daughter. This should work much better because we have a larger, better preserved, and more important piece of the Daughter to work with.

God damn that was some good sleep.

Called, writing shortly.

You know Vox, you could probably sleep better if you cut back on the coffee.

...