Magic in a setting is 'hard to use and learn' to explain why magic hasn't completely wiped out all other means of...

>Magic in a setting is 'hard to use and learn' to explain why magic hasn't completely wiped out all other means of military advancement
>Rules don't reflect that, it's very easy to learn and use magic as a player
>There's a shitload of mages around
>Setting doesn't have any kind of regulation or standard indoctrination

why do games do this?
what are some games where magic is ACTUALLY hard to learn, but rewarding without being OP?

>Rules don't reflect that, it's very easy to learn and use magic as a player

You assume that Player Characters are just ordinary people, and that anyone can be one.

That's not very imaginative.

that's the thing though
what stops anyone from learning the same way a player does besides "i say so"?

>Setting doesn't have any kind of regulation or standard indoctrination

This implies a strong central authority to enforce the regulation, which isn't always the case

The players just have a knack for magic
Either that or the spark of magic isn't found in everyone

regulation doesn't have to come from a central entity created solely for magic things, any kind of government could have laws regarding the usage of magic so magic users don't fuck shit up (if it's unique enough to be adressed separately and not bagged along other laws)

characters are ordinary people or characters are exceptional people.
I don't see how one assumption is more imaginative than the other.

>"to explain why magic hasn't completely wiped out all other means of military advancement"
DESU if you have a shitload of Heracles' running around with magic deflecting armour it's no wonder that mages cannot simply steamroll.

Unknown Armies. If you don't start the game as an adept or an avatar, becoming one is pretty difficult. Becoming an adept requires that your character go insane on one of the game's sanity tracks. Becoming an avatar requires that your character behave in very specific ways for a long stretch of game time, and keep behaving that way forever in order to get the skill higher than 10%. Learning either provides cool abilities that are useful, but may not always be worth the tradeoff of a normal life.

Because PCs or Adventurers in general are born special or become special.
Your ordinary townsfolk starts at either lvl 0 Fighter or have their own Peasant class, both of which has terrible stats which makes fighting a lot harder compared to any PC class at lvl 1. And there are no rules for them to level up, meaning even if they win a fight they do not advance.

And PCs get experience for stuff no "real" person would get experience for, that shows just how special PCs are in the world.

>There's a shitload of mages around
That's not true at all, you just don't meet all the millions of farmers but you will meet almost every wizard that exists near your party, making them seem unproportional common.

Well, I don't think the rules have to reflect that. It'd be more of a flavor text thing that whoever is running the game would explain or have written down in their setting overview.

>Player Characters are exceptional
>Player Characters
I just puked a bit.

Blah blah blah hit with stick hard blah blah blah bend reality

Why, should settings only have NPCs?

>not bending reality with your stick

CoC, where the "PC's" are average joes who accidentally disturb some freaky shit that causes them to slowly go insane.

>And PCs get experience for stuff no "real" person would get experience for, that shows just how special PCs are in the world.
>And there are no rules for them to level up, meaning even if they win a fight they do not advance.
>Your ordinary townsfolk starts at either lvl 0 Fighter or have their own Peasant class, both of which has terrible stats which makes fighting a lot harder compared to any PC class at lvl 1.

That really just sounds like the game has poorly written rules in general.

I mean, why should one guy get EXP for disabling traps and killing monsters, but the militia of farmers who drive away a small horde of goblins get nothing, in spite of them beating away the goblins successfully?

There should be no clear distinction between NPCs and PCs.

A characters actions should speak, while being a players character should say nothing.

If you want to run or play in games where you're a special person who has had life handed to them on a golden platter, feel free. I won't be running those games because they're boring and pointless.

This is true.

PCs in CoC are also not wizards with control of elemental forces. The best you have is a professor who can read a bit of the evil book which drives him insane for reading it.

OP and are obviously talking about D&D and D&D-esque heroic fantasy games, which don't have the player characters as random schmucks. Fantasy games where you are supposed to be random schmucks, like WFRP, have a very low chance of you or anyone else you run into being a wizard.

Because players have control over the abilities of their characters(at least, up to a point). A player wants his character to be a wizard? The character always had the knack for it he just didn't practice or even realize he had it before. He wants the character to become barbarian? Same deal. Doesn't matter if in-setting only one in thousand or one in ten thousand has ability to become a wizard, the player character has it if the player wants him to have it. It sacrifices a degree of verisimilitude to grant the players a greater control over their characters.

Because the others haven't been possessed by one of Those who Play Games.

I've been planning on using this idea forever. Someday. . . Someday

>That really just sounds like the game has poorly written rules in general.

Not really. It's just game first, a platform for doing cool stuff second and a simulation distant third.

Although usually, the town militia driving away the goblins should receive XP, it just isn't tracked in detail because it's pretty much irrelevant whether they're first or second level and the GM has better things to do than worry about that. If a border town repeatedly getting attacked by goblins/orcs/whatever has militia consisting of first level warriors, that's an oversight from the GM, not a flaw in the system.

CoC basically has no magic and is irrelevant to the discussion because it will kill or maim or destroy your character 99% of the time you try to use it.

Special snowflake and "has the very rare gift of magic/the shining/etc" are not the same.

So if wizards and clerics and druids are that powerful and dangerous, why are they even playable classes in the first place?

Gandalf was powerful sure but he didn't go around blasting everything the party came across or solving every tense moment by wiggling his fingers and forcing the equivalent of a SoL/SoD until the threat was either dead or incapacitated.

Also, compared to most shit in the grand scheme, martials are the de facto random schmucks, if only because they cannot just cast spells and watch their problems go away.

Granted, playing martials in D&D, in any edition besides maybe OD&D and 4e, probably the most boring shit you could ever subject yourself to but that's besides the point.

>Special snowflake and "has the very rare gift of magic/the shining/etc" are not the same.

Never said they were. I just said I don't enjoy games where player characters are either one.

I prefer for magic to be proportionally weak and common if it's an option characters can take. If it's rare and powerful then it becomes a plot device.

Yes, but even in CoC the players are exceptional. They are part of a small group of people that actually stumbles onto these eldritch secrets and are driven insane, rather than just playing as one of the vast majority of people in the world who has nothing supernatural happen to them.

PCs are kind of special by nature. That isn't always a good thing, but it is mostly true.

>So if wizards and clerics and druids are that powerful and dangerous, why are they even playable classes in the first place?

That's a trick question. There's nothing wrong with PCs being essentially demi-gods. The problems arise when in the same game one character is a wizard who can do essentially anything, and another is a fighter who can hit things with sword really hard and the rules text implies that the two should be played in the same party.

>read as "I like low-magic games and hate high-magic games"
Why do you cunts always come into magic threads? You don't like magic.

>Special snowflake and "has the very rare gift of magic/the shining/etc" are not the same.

Yes they are.

It's a special snowflake story if the main character was blessed with a rare gift that not many people have access to that allows him to be the sole reason for why anything within the story gets done.

See: Attack on Titan or Naruto.

Granted, special snowflake and mary sue are terms that get thrown around a lot but overall, the story is much more compelling when the protagonist is someone who doesn't have fortune and power on their side yet still overcomes obstacles based on their wits and talents that allow them to pull off impossible bullshit in spite of the handicap.

See: Boku no Hero Academia or Assassination Classroom

>>It's a special snowflake story if the main character
There are no main characters in a tabletop roleplaying game. Playing a character that isn't Joe Average and sucks at everything is not the same as playing a donut steel Mary Sue. Saying your character was born with the gift of magic does not inherently make that character a Mary Sue.

I love magic mate. I just don't like games where the party are gods walking among meek mortals. If I hated magic I wouldn't run 5e where every class has the option to access some level of magic.

>any unique qualities that help the character in any way makes them a special snowflake
This thread gets more retarded by the second.

>I love magic mate. I just don't like games where the party are gods walking among meek mortals.
No, you love cantrips and other weak excuses for "magic." Low magic = you don't like magic is just how I choose to describe you people because it might as well be nonmagical. Afterall there's no real difference between everyone being able to use cantrips/weak magic and a scifi game where room temperature superconductors have been discovered and thus "telekinesis" and/or nano/femtobots exist that can do everything in a low magic setting and more.

Hardly anyone really wants to play some boring as shit mundane character even in games ABOUT boring as shit mundane characters.

well, now special snowflake has degraded to the point where it is a useless term.
Good work user, you killed another piece of internet lingo.

Different user.

If magic exists in the world as an option that the character can take, it should be weak and/or common for people to take due to it being about as mundane and dangerous to use as something like a stove or an electrical socket IRL.

If magic is supposed to be game-breakingly powerful and renders every encounter into a trivial pursuit of who can get their SoL/SoD spells to stick first, then said magic should be similarly rare, to where anyone who does know magic is either hidden away or feared by the general populace.

When you allow magic to be vastly more powerful than any option that does not have access to it, it just creates a situation where those who don't have magic are at a disadvantage while those who do have magic can easily overcome any situation you throw at them simply because "there's a spell for that."

>cantrip and low level spells aren't magic
It's obvious you've been spoiled as a player. A shame really.

>Saying your character was born with the gift of magic does not inherently make that character a Mary Sue.

It does when they're able to win the hearts of anyone they come across with charm spells, lay waste with destructive spells like fireball with the flick of a wrist and generally overcome any obstacle they come across without a lick of struggle when compared to their martial counterpart.

Which is exactly what mages generally can do, as per the game's rules.

That's a false dilemma, user. Magic can be rare and powerful without making it a game-breaking option.

Your entire post is basically a complaint about D&D 3.5. There are many, many systems where magic is not "game-breakingly powerful and renders every encounter into a trivial pursuit of who can get their SoL/SoD spells to stick first" or "vastly more powerful than any option that does not have access to it."

The OP is asking for magic systems that are hard to learn, thus making it extremely unlikely to be anything common, as well as rewarding without being OP, like you have just described by saying 3.5 without saying 3.5.

>wah 3.5 and D&D and PF
see

blah blah that's just magic blah blah blah

oh its this thread again

>why magic hasn't completely wiped out all other means of military advancement

The law of comparative advantage explains this more than adequately.

If more gamers knew basic microeconomics, we wouldn't keep falling into world building blunders like this.

blah in-universe laws blah blah supernatural bloo.

Name three settings/systems where that's actually the case.

Any superhero system, for starters.

First lets define 'game breaking' in the context of a cooperative multiplayer story telling game.

care to elaborate your point? you might have something in mind that interests me greatly

clearly conflicts with Which is true I wonder?

Eclipse Phase if you consider Psi powers "magic."
All superhero games.
Exalted with regards to Solar powers vs. Dragonblooded powers.

The two posts are by different posters and wholly unrelated, so I don't see how they can conflict.

If everyone has superpowers, is magic really magic?
>Afterall there's no real difference between everyone being able to use cantrips/weak magic and a scifi game where room temperature superconductors have been discovered and thus "telekinesis" and/or nano/femtobots exist that can do everything in a low magic setting and more.

Power is relative after all. If everyone is a superhero, is magic really magic? Or is it just a separate power pool or part of a rock paper scissors style system where some supers are vulnerable to only 'magic' powers just to give the appearance of balance?

Not who you responded to, but alphabetically from my folder:
>Godbound, but "muh low power dirt-farming fantasy"
>Ironclaw
>Legends of the Wulin, but see above
>Reign
>Stars Without Number, but it's sci-fi so it's called psychics
>Unknown Armies

i wonder who could be behind this post

Exalted also has sorcery, which is powerful and versatile, but by no means game-breaking.

>See: weebshit

You're not helping your case.

Misread your post, so strike out spoilers and Reign. That's still more than you asked for.

>First lets define 'game breaking' in the context of a cooperative multiplayer story telling game.
Able to singlehandedly solve any and all problems better than characters specialized in solving a given set of problems. Basically an unrestricted wizard in 3.5 D&D.

Or at least that's what I seem to be getting from reading these posts.

>If everyone has superpowers, is magic really magic?
>Power is relative after all. If everyone is a superhero, is magic really magic?
Are we talking about "everyone" in the context of the players at the table, or everyone in the context of everyone in the game world. I thought we were referring to the latter.

Any option in the game that opens up vastly more powerful/effective options than another option that has vastly less options in how they choose to overcome an obstacle.

To put it another way,

Fighter

>Hit with sword
>Hit harder with sword

Due to the fact that most options granted by feats are weak, too situational for them to really offer much versatility, or become weaker by design due to enemies gaining more and more strengths that render them immune to it.

Wizard

>Damage
>Debuff
>Buff
>Teleport
>Summon
>SoL/SoD

Among other options, that only become stronger and stronger as they gain levels and opportunities to improve the DC of their spells.

And when you're a martial that's supposed to be powerful yet all you see is the mage slowly gaining more and more power and overcoming obstacles without any help from you, then that's when shit gets stupid and the concept of a "co-op MP ST game" becomes eroded.

To put it another way, nobody wants to go through an hour of character creation only to see that their badass swordsman contributes nothing or worth to the party beyond swinging a hunk of metal while the wizard is able to effortlessly break the CRB over their knee and do almost anything they fucking want.

You can't really snark about weebshit when there exists a long running thread based on Jojo that's running right this second.

Face it, tabletop games overlap with many other forms of media, it's generally what happens.

I hate to say this, but have you tried not playing 3.pf? Earlier editions of D&D don't have this problem to this extent (Wizards do become pretty powerful by the late game, but they're lucky if they live that long, and there's not a lot of ways to enhance the power of their magic).

Later editions also don't really have this problem either. Either by making everyone capable of using some magic, or just making everyone a wizard.

And then there are other systems for fantasy games that don't require this.

Also: This is a bait thread. It's the third one I've seen since yesterday. Why are we all bothering?

this is the third fucking time we've had a thread like this in 2 days.

>depends on the setting

>Why are we all bothering?
Because this is Hell. Eventually, if we shitpost hard enough, the site will crash forever and we can finally be free.

But user, your weebshit is bad weebshit.

Assassination classroom, really?

What's wrong with Assasination Classrom and Boku No Hero Academia?

Keep in mind, I listed Naruto and Attack on Titan as examples of how special snowflake bullshit can ruin the story.
.

kek

I'm just trying to establish a community consensus on the definition of magic for both the narrative and mechanical sides of the roleplaying die. Hopefully so the thread doesn't devolve into people arguing semantics without realizing what they're doing.

So an ideally balanced game would naturally, though its mechanics, enable each and every player to be of near equal value, with each contributing to different scenarios in unique and meaningful ways.

>Are we talking about "everyone"
And here we have another thing we need to define and agree on.
>Rules don't reflect that, it's very easy to learn and use magic as a player.
OP seems to believe that magic being easily available to the players as an option means that magic is also common and easy to learn for everyone. That if magic is hard to learn and acquire in the setting, the same should apply to the players and their characters.

What are your thoughts, gentlemen?

Thoughts?

Mage. Sure, it offers reality-warping power. But your enemies have it too and reality itself rejects you.

Can you imagine if that happens? Like, where would you idly waste time if Veeky Forums went down? Like, no warning, the site is just gone.

What would we do?

go to infinity chan or something?

Why are you replying to the THIRD active bait thread on the exact same topic? You know they are all probably virtualoptim, right?

>OP seems to believe that magic being easily available to the players as an option means that magic is also common and easy to learn for everyone. That if magic is hard to learn and acquire in the setting, the same should apply to the players and their characters.
>What are your thoughts, gentlemen?
Retarded.

I went to twicechan once. The only board I would go on is Veeky Forums, and it was pretty much dead.

I'd probably get banned from any of the normal RPG sites, and be cucked at on the rest.

I'd probably sit around playing Dwarf Fortress.

It's a slow board. I prefer it honestly, give me more time to generate thoughtful responses and read/digest what other people are saying.

>I went to twicechan once. The only board I would go on is Veeky Forums, and it was pretty much dead.

If Veeky Forums went dead, it would probably get a lot of extra traffic, because it's the most obvious alternative.

GURPS

I'm going to humor you, despite this being a bait thread.

Before I go putting my thoughts out there, you need to know they're coming from a specific place. OSR, and the original framework for D&D. Within this framework of rules is an implied setting where the world is filled with ruins, monsters, and treasure, and the adventurers (PCs) are the only ones crazy enough to go out and loot them. As a result, they get XP for looting treasure. Monsters don't give much XP, and the resources lost fighting them and the potential for death due to the lower number of hit points makes doing this unattractive. They don't get XP for killing NPCs, or disarming traps. They only get XP for recovered treasure.

There are no bonus spells in OSR. There are no "DCs" in OSR. When a character is affected by a spell, they roll against the appropriate saving throw, and whether they succeed or fail is based on luck and rolling over the target number for the appropriate save - meaning, that as saves improve, one is less and less likely to be affected by magic.

There are (generally) a lack of cantrips in OSR. Cantrip actually used to be a first level spell that could do all of the 3.5 core cantrip spells. Incidentally, this means that a person has to be a 1st level Magic-User in order to cast it.

However, there are some options for cantrips in modern OSR games, and my example will draw from the Basic Fantasy RPG system.

Detailed therein, there is an option for non-spellcasters to learn and cast orisons and cantrips, but they're restricted to 1+Int or Wis modifier per day (or 0+Int of Wis modifier, depending on how rare the DM wishes them to be).

So, at most, you'll have someone who is has the maximum ability score of 18 getting 3-4 spells a day, most of which do incredibly minor things.

Summon/Exterminate Vermin summons or kills one insect.

Mage-Hand can move one pound of material at a speed of 10 feet, or give an object a push of approximately the caster's own strength.

Knot/Unknot can make or unmake knots.

Irritate forces the target to involuntarily blink, nod, itch, giggle, or some other small body movement.

Flavor/Putrefy makes food taste however you want it to, up to and including making it taste like it has gone bad.

Clean/Dirty makes a square foot area clean or dirty.

Transfigure is a minor transformation. You could change hair color with it, but the change isn't permanent. Living things created with the spell don't last more than 10 minutes.

Flare is a flash of fire or a puff of colored smoke.

Animate Tool causes a small tool (up to a small hammer) to do a repetitive task for 10 minutes. It cannot animate weapons.

Inscribe can engrave a square foot of almost any material with writings or drawings.

Open/Close opens or closes a normal unlocked window, door or similar entrance.

Orisons

Guidance/Misguidance gives a +1 or -1 to the subject's next attack roll.

Ward/Curse grants a +1 to the subject's next saving throw.

Cure Minor Wounds heals 1 hp.

Mend fixes dents, minor holes, wear, etc. in small objects.

Predict Weather lets you know what the weather will be like for 24 hours.

Virtue grants a single temporary hit point.

Water to Wine does what it says on the tin. A jug of water becomes wine.

Call to Worship allows the caster to let everyone within a mile know that it's time to pray to the gods. Doesn't compel anyone to show up. Bells might be more useful.

Meal Blessing basically grants 1 hp for the meal that was blessed.

Now, a world with such an implied setting is going to have:

a.) 0 level people, and

b.) some of those people will be capable of casting at least 1 cantrip or orison per day.

c.) 1st level magic is beyond them unless they become a Magic-User or Cleric.

You're right. We should let the statistics do the talking. Each player rolls 1d100 ten times, if all of them come out as 100 they're adventurers. If not, they spend their entire lives inside the same hut, only leaving each morning to tend to their cabbage patch. Nothing exceptional happens their entire lives. There's a 5% that at one point in their lives they hear secondhand stories about an adventure that happened in another country. At age 29 they die from the plague.

I'm sure everyone would have a blast

In such a setting, I would say that "everyone" can have access to these minor magics, and that "everyone" could potentially be a Cleric or Magic-User, but Clerics require uncommon faith and dedication to the deity in question, and Magic-Users likely do in fact require real effort and training to become one.

Elves, in the implied setting of Basic Fantasy RPG are the only race that can be a Fighter/Magic-User multiclass, so I'd assume that Magic-Users are more common among elves, and thus they are more likely to produce them.

But would everyone choose to be a Cleric or Wizard in Basic Fantasy RPG's implied setting? I rather doubt it. For one, Clerics and Magic-User have a d6 and a d4 health (respectively) while 0 level persons enjoy a d8, except for elves, whose maximum HD is a d6.

Moreover, 1st level Clerics have no spells. They don't get them until 2nd level, so you have to survive that long in order to get any payoff beyond the orisons you might already know.

Magic-Users don't have it quite as tough, but they can only cast a single 1st level spell per day at 1st level, meaning that you could charm a single person, once. You don't get a 2nd level spell until 3rd level, so you have to survive that long to begin cashing in your ultimate cosmic power investment.

And, reminder: You only get XP for recovered treasure, so you're playing a dangerous game of chance every time you enter a ruin in pursuit of your aforementioned ultimate cosmic power.

The more time I spend here, the more I question how much anyone has ever even played a table top RPG with other human beings.

Most of the problems discussed on this bored are solved by playing with irl friends and actually reading the material.

Mr. Strawman, if you put that amount of work into actual answers then we might have been able to get somewhere.

There's nothing saying that all NPCs have to lead dreary existences until they die, in fact, there are plenty of stories of ordinary sods being thrust into extraordinary situations.

Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, The Hobbit, Star Wars: Episode IV, etc. all dealt with protagonists who started off as relatively ordinary people who, for one reason or another, decided to go out and explore the world around them while leaving their ordinary lives behind.

Hell, "the hero's journey" is built around this premise.

If you have to make everyone involved in the story a superhero just to have interesting stuff happen to them, rather than throwing them into situations and seeing how they make it out in one piece, then you're just a lazy Storyteller.

Why is it that the guys who want to play lower power games are always the biggest elitist faggots around? They can't just say "I don't enjoy high power games" it's always
>*pukes smugly with self-sactisfacion* if you want to play as a special person, feel free I won't be running those games
as if people are dying to play with them and therefore everyone should give a fuck about what they personally won't run

Meanwhile everyone else in the thread can talk about the topic without spewing "your fun is badwrongfun" bullshit

>Star Wars: Episode IV
>protagonists who started off as relatively ordinary people

The second-to-last living Jedi master, a princess and the literal Chosen One are not good examples of "relatively ordinary people."

Luke started off as a water farmer who wanted to join the rebellion but ended up learning about his birthright as he went on to discover the force.

For the record, that's who I was referring to, specifically.

I'm not the guy you were replying to, but Star Wars might be a bad example. The protagonists of such stories are not in fact, "regular people". They are people with a Hidden Destiny who have been thrust into that destiny after being deliberately shielded from it (in the case of Luke and whatshername) or had their Destiny present itself (in the case of Anakin).

>That if magic is hard to learn and acquire in the setting, the same should apply to the players and their characters.
I would like to ask "why would you do that"?

>Star Wars

I'm glad you mentioned that, because it's the perfect example.

Yes, Luke starts out as an average farmboy, but he also starts off with a hidden talent for a rare form of magical power. They've also got a full-fledged wizard tagging along with them, a princess, and an alien of a rather strong and rare race.

The most normal ones in the group are Han Solo and the Droids, but even they're special by virtue of the fact that out of all the R2 units, protocal droids, and smugglers in the galaxy, they got swept up in this.

Not everyone involved needs to be a superhero, but that doesn't mean that nobody involved can be special. Luke from Star Wars goes against your entire point, as he's the main character with a special power that maybe a dozen people living in the entire galaxy still have.

Insisting that the PCs can't be better than the average NPC throws that out the window, because even with the occasional nobody having some excitement in their lives and going on an adventure, the vast majority really won't.

By being that average Joe who gets caught up in an adventure in the first place, you've made that person special just by having the story focus on them.

>If you want to run or play in games where you're a special person who has had life handed to them on a golden platter, feel free. I won't be running those games because they're boring and pointless.
You forget to tell us that you're leaving the board and never coming back.

Sorry kid, I've been here and will be here for a bit longer.

But you haven't been here long enough to understand that reference?

There is no way to run a high power/magic campaign and still have a threat level maintain a semblance of danger throughout without resorting to power creep.

It's the same reason why you can't have a story featuring Superman or The Flash without anyone with even a semblance of insight into the character's power thinking to themselves "hey, shouldn't this fucker be capable of dealing with this problem due to X?"

How do you create a threat that Superman cannot handle when he has lifted the personification of time itself and a book of infinite pages?

How do you create a threat for The Flash when he can witness events that take place in less than a fraction of a second and can run fast enough to outrun a death being whose whole purpose was catching speedsters?

You really can't, not without either inventing contrived reasons for why they cannot use those abilities anymore (such as using AMF's against mages) or by succumbing to power creep and making progressively stronger enemies that will inevitably leave weaker members of the cast behind yet still only being defeated by the person they were designed to counter (such as using creatures like golems or basilisks).

I don't much care for memes.

So your complaint is that high power characters require high power enemies to challenge them, and this will leave low-power characters behind?

Well, aside from the fact that a high power campaign ideally wouldn't have low-power characters, then I don't see the problem with having the high power characters fighting high-power threats.

Nothing says your high-power characters need to be as strong as superman either, and yet superman has had times where he's died or lost fights or been unable to solve problems. Thus, a high magic party can clearly be put in situations that have a semblance of danger.

Arguing from comic books also isn't very helpful, as power scales there fluctuate massively from writer to writer and even story to story.

A High magic campaign doesn't automatically make everyone demigods that can solve every problem with a flick of the wrist.

>Yes, Luke starts out as an average farmboy, but he also starts off with a hidden talent for a rare form of magical power.

Which he wouldn't have discovered in the first place if he didn't run into R2-DR or C3-PO who played the message that led them to meeting with Obi-Wan in the first place.

Hell, even in the original trilogy, it took Luke one-and-a-half movies to truly master the force and even then, it took training from Obi-Wan and Yoda together.

Even then, I wouldn't really call him a Jedi until Episode 6, primarily due to the fact that throughout most of the movies, he's participating as a rebel pilot until the climax of episode 5 onwards where he finally gets to confront Vader for the first time.

>There is no way to run a high power/magic campaign and still have a threat level maintain a semblance of danger throughout without resorting to power creep.

Unless you think "high power/magic" means epic level D&D 3.x specifically, you're crazy.
Yeah, a wizard is powerful... But so is a dragon, or a beholder.

>it took Luke one-and-a-half movies to truly master the force and even then, it took training from Obi-Wan and Yoda together.

so troughout the course of a campaign he went from level 1 to max level? And he trained with obi-wan and yoda off-screen just like how we assume every player character is training off-screen to justify the power gains of levelling up?

Remember, it didn't even take 10 years for luke to go from loser to jedi master.

You can just say that you don't understand the reference. We're both anonymous, so you won't lose any face.

>WAH 3.PF WIZARDS VS MARTIALS
it never gets old