I was in a Greyhawk campaign playing as a Cleric worshiping Pelor. We found a group of goblins, who we killed. One of the other characters, a Paladin, said we should have given them a chance to surrender. This sparked a debate between him and I about whether or not goblins in Greyhawk were inherently evil, and -thus- if their genocide was morally justifiable. My character believed that it was.
I had two main arguments, one was spiritual and the other genetic.
From a spiritual standpoint, there are no good goblin gods in Greyhawk. This meant to my character that spiritually, goblins -as a race- were evil. They had no moral campus to guild them that didn't point in the wrong direction. While individual goblins might turn to other races gods, the goblin race as a whole was irredeemable. In short, their souls were inherently evil as represented by their pantheon.
From a genetic stand point, human morals evolved from our particular pack mentality. Our capacity for altruism (and other actions we consider 'moral') come directly from our evolution as a social animal. If goblins had a different evolutionary path (as my character believed) their morals would not be coherent with ours. The actions of goblins showed their societal instincts weren't -in anyway- "moral." They were -genetically- an "evil" race, as the system the DnD characters find themselves in defined such terms as 'good' and 'evil.'
Since the DnD system has defined 'good' and 'evil,' within that system one can see goblins are inherently "evil." Thus, the wholesale slaughter of their races is not only morally justifiable, but a moral imperative.
Is genocide morally justifiable in these circumstances?
That could make for a very interesting campeign, Though ultimately I think the evil in D&D seems to come more from external sources (the gods) as the gods created everything right? So the moral imperitive is to kill the gods, destroy the universe, and create a universe that is morally superior.
Benjamin Garcia
Goblin lives matter! He was a good gob, he din du nuffin wrong! He went to the temple every eclipse, was bout to get his life on track, need mo money fo horde programs.
Ian Foster
So, when is it alright to attack a sentient creature on sight? Like, if you heard rumors of Ogres raping and pillaging, would it be OK to then attack a group of Ogres you find in that same area? Or would you not feel morally justified until it was proven they were the correct Ogres? Would you (as a good character) not attack a black dragon, unless you knew for sure it was up to no good?
Robert Bailey
The idea of race is a social construct. There are no goblins or ogres or humans, only one race: the Greyhawkian race.
Caleb Allen
...
Grayson Nelson
Fucking anything's morally justifiable. Morals are malleable, you can use any one of many different systems, and you can interpret the fuck out of them (look at the Nazis abusing the shit out of Nietzsche).
IRL it's spooky, though.
Christopher Torres
Yes. You are applying real world morals to Alignments, which is not correct in that setting. Good and Evil are opposed forces of creation, just as Law and Chaos are. Evil is your enemy, it is to be converted or extinguished. Goblins are, as a race, evil. They serve Evil. Not the concept of evil, but the cosmic forces of Evil. There may be some that are not evil, and seek to serve Good. But those are far and few between, and you can detect them easily enough with divine magic. Your character, as someone who literally knows in the existence of gods, and directly serves one, knows this is a battle for existence. One that is ongoing through the ages.
Luis Brown
Whats if Good and Evil had little moral difference in the sense we apply morality IRL, but are simply opposing forces. an Evil creature isnt making an irrational decision being evil, Thats just what "side" its on.
Jose Walker
You do realise White in MTG doesn't stand for "good", right?
Austin Adams
We're talking about DnD
Isaac Rodriguez
Well, yeah, it's more like "Lawful" as a general thing. I think every color has had its chance to be The Hero of the Story at least once or twice by now.
Josiah Morales
This type of thing is why I refluff EVERY detect evil/good, smite evil/good spell, etc. as "Detect hostility"
Angel Bennett
Fuck off, pol.
Kevin Price
>Trying to drum up philosophy in a system where you literally choose to be Good or Evil from your fucking conception
Zachary Gray
...
William Cox
>Assmad gobbo can't handle a little bit of satire
Jose Lee
Do goblins have free will, or are they predetermined to be evil?
Kevin Mitchell
>"Stories are told of ogres—horrendous stories of brutality and savagery, cannibalism and torture. Of rape and dismemberment, necrophilia, incest, mutilation, and all manners of hideous murder. Those who have not encountered ogres know the stories as warnings. Those who have survived such encounters know these tales to be tame compared to the truth." d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/giants/ogre
Easton Phillips
Of course it's justifiable, how do you think Hitler did it?
Joshua Parker
Hitler's actions were not justifiable, and now his very imagery is associated with 'evil.'
Austin Jackson
>Order of assassins who follow a strict code, work for hire and suppress their individualism >Chaotic Neutral
Blake Hall
The fact you think this shows how simplistic your opinions really are.
Carter Ortiz
>Hitler driving out the bolshevik revolutionaries from bravaria was unjustifiable >Hitler making Germany great again was unjustifiable >Not fighting to protect your land and people from the bolshevik menace >Hitler >evil
Literally the only thing wrong he did was that he didn't shoot every kike on site. The holocaust never happened, but it should have.
Julian Brooks
>Moral justifications for the genocide of 'evil' races
"They're literally an evil race."
Done. Cucks need not give their feeble limp-dicked input. If we've defined a race as literally evil, and you accept the premise that evil is not a particularly pleasant or desirable force in the world, then we have our justification.
>"B-but the goblin babies!"
Don't confuse helplessness with goodness.
Angel Wright
>That card oy vey, another shoah! Why does the world hate us so?
Samuel Rivera
>moral justification you don't need a moral justification for genocide. you just need a societal one, like >muslims are incompatible with western culture >goblins are inherently evil and seek to destroy or enslave humans etc
John Brown
Boy, D&D alignments are fucking stupid.
Isaiah Johnson
You got that right!
Grayson Moore
You do not need to "justify" killing goblins any more than you need to justify killing pit vipers.
Ryder Hill
>From a genetic stand point, human morals evolved from our particular pack mentality We're talking about Greyhawk here, yes? What evidence is there that humans evolved at all, rather than being created?
Daniel Rodriguez
It's D&D. Not genociding the evil races is an evil act in itself and means that people are justified at taking a shot at killing you.
The gods have already sorted everyone out, all that's left for their creations is to follow the path set.
Jason Gray
>Thus, the wholesale slaughter of their races is not only morally justifiable, but a moral imperative. It actually seems kind of meaningless, if we assume the presence of evil gods. If those gods are literally just the manifestation of the goblins' belief, and the absence of goblins would cause the god to vanish, it would call into question why they were inherently evil in the first place, and call up the question of how evil even works as a cosmic force. In this case, the genocide very well might be justified, if this race is somehow introducing evil into the world with their faith, but a little bizarre. How does that work? Is the supposedly universal force of "Evil" in D&D really just the manifestation of the beliefs of evil beings? Most likely the easier way to deal with this is to simply teach the adherents differently.
If on the other hand, they have been created or corrupted by the evil gods, then all genocide could do is to deny the evil god followers or power and influence in the world, but since they still exist, if they're crafty enough, they could corrupt or subvert some other group to do their bidding, perhaps even the group doing the genocide. How easy it would be to subvert the intentions of a group of beings that were slaughtering off entire populations with the "best intentions" and turn them to evil.
The only truly sane option for a crusader of good becomes the most seemingly insane one: kill the gods of evil. It's what it comes down to anyway, doesn't it? That's what this is all about. You want to truly permanently rid the world of evil, killing orc babies isn't going to do it. You're trying to ensure peaceful future generations, there's no way that can happen with cosmic beings devoted to creating strife and discord in it. It may be the harder option, but that's precisely why it's the right one.
Carson Torres
>Not genociding the evil races is an evil act in itself Proof?
Elijah Cox
>4antz
Oliver Gutierrez
Letting them live means that you actively abet murder.
Zachary Turner
I think you're a little confused on the meaning of the word "abet". It means to encourage or assist someone in doing it, not "allow".
Ryder Sullivan
What about Demons?
Do Demons have free will?
Sebastian Wilson
They probably have, but they're evil in prinicple. They cant be un-evil.
Free will of human doesnt mean he actions are random either. But human nature limits possible action human can take. For example, humans (generally) dont intentionaly hurt themsef. Does that mean we have no free will to do so? Of course not.
Case with demons is very similiar - their nature is chaotic and evil. That doestn mean they have no free will. (And lets face it - lawfulness and goodnes of actions depends just as much on intent and motivation as on the action itself.)
Gabriel Mitchell
>From a spiritual standpoint, there are no good goblin gods in Greyhawk.
There are, however, plenty of race-agnostic gods in greyhawk for both good and evil.
There are no non-evil HUMAN gods in the setting either.
Ryan Price
what would tivadar do, user
Dominic Richardson
Depends on the setting. When you say Evil races, is this a complaint that their cashiers cheat you on the change slightly more than the planar average, or do you mean that they've joined up with the Cosmic Principle Of Lies, Murder, Suffering, Backstabbing, Envy, Arrogance, And So Forth?
Benjamin Carter
>There are no non-evil HUMAN gods in the setting either. Yeah, no: Pelor, Rao, St. Cuthbert, Heironeous, Atroa, Geshtai, Joramy, Myhriss, Lirr, Delleb, Sotillion, Wenta, Allitur, Berei, Zodal, Bralm, Dalt, Fortubo, Jascar, Lydia, Phaulkon, Berna, Kundo, Al'Akbar, Mayaheine, Merikka, Ehlonna, Ulaa, Trithereon, Pholtus, Procan, and many others. To just name SOME of the GOOD ones.
>All but one of these deities—Raxivort being the exception—was primarily a human deity. By his own admission, Gygax’s vision of Greyhawk (and of D&D) was of a human-centred world. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhawk_deities
Daniel Barnes
As a long-time Paladin player, I've learnt a simple trick.
When a fight starts, give the enemy ONE chance to surrender. Just say "This is your only chance to surrender." or something along those lines.
Then later, when they DO surrender, you can point out: "I told you that I was only giving you one chance. You rejected it. Would you have me break my oath?"
You see, they never surrender at the START of the fight. This way, you don't have to deal with any dilemmas.
Pretty sure you just manipulated yourself into a position where you fall no matter what. Paladins have to accept surrender or they fall; and they can't break their oaths, or they fall.
Matthew Brooks
Nope. They were offered mercy and refused it. End of.
Blake Rivera
>Paladins have to accept surrender or they fall
Do they? There's no requirement to give quarter to evildoers.
And paladins do qualify as acceptable judges, if anyone does. They are perfectly within the right to accept the surrender of an enemy, and summarily execute him thereafter.
Samuel Moore
>making some race always evil >without even lazy justification like "muh demons" Your setting a big, smoking pile o'shit
Aiden Scott
this is why i suck at playing good characters. This sort of thing is entirely meaningless in almost every imaginable sense. The fact there is a school of philosophy dedicated to having the smug satisfaction of a moral high ground baffles me.
Why do you even care?
Alexander Wilson
I agree with this statement in a general way. Evil organizations, and perhaps evil cultures, always seems like the way to go over inherently-evil species.
Ayden Johnson
I wanna be an ogre
Dylan Fisher
That also shows a LN(Nomog-Geaya) and a NG (Kikanuti) Goblin Diety though.
So yeah, you are right...but OP was also very wrong about no good goblin Dieties.
Ethan Young
We've known that since Lorwynn.
Joshua Ramirez
D&D has inherit problems. No race should be evil by design, but should rather be influenced by evil gods or cultures.
A character like the paladin would probably attempt to reason with any "evil" being rather than attack on sight. I've even seen PC adaptations of D&D rules allowing your characters to attempt to reason with armies of undead before attacking them, which means bonus experience for your character. (Icewind Dale comes to mind; although I'm unsure if there are any conditions to which the undead will actually surrender)
I guess these are just gaps the DM has to fill in. Myself, I would probably penalize paladins who attacked things on sight instead of attempting diplomacy, unless the circumstances necessitated extreme action .(e.g. the villain is actively engaged in the slaughter of an entire group or village)
Carter James
>Google >Good
Joseph Stewart
unappreciated post
Lucas Morales
This is literally a game where good shiny knights beat up evil ugly monsters. If you want to introduce some moral depth into this, you are playing the wrong game.
Adrian Gray
>"Stories are told of ogres—horrendous stories of brutality and savagery, cannibalism and torture. Of rape and dismemberment, necrophilia, incest, mutilation, and all manners of hideous murder. Those who have not encountered ogres know the stories as warnings. Those who have survived such encounters know these tales to be tame compared to the truth." >I wanna be an ogre Why? Sounds pretty rough, what with all the raping.
Alexander Clark
>From a spiritual standpoint, there are no good goblin gods in Greyhawk. This meant to my character that spiritually, goblins -as a race- were evil. They had no moral campus to guild them that didn't point in the wrong direction. While individual goblins might turn to other races gods, the goblin race as a whole was irredeemable. In short, their souls were inherently evil as represented by their pantheon. Good enough mental backflip for the majority of religious cleansing.
>evolution as a social animal. If goblins had a different evolutionary path .... genetically- an "evil" race,
Eh, I could poke all sorts of holes into this as a scientific basis. But it starts with a question of just WTF good and evil are. Saying the D&D mechanics define it is a bullshit and lazy copout. (And you might as well just look in the MM). If it's relative, then their branch is just as valid as yours absolutely, but who gives a fuck as they're still evil relative TO YOU.
Remember it's a fucking game and not to get your paladin panties in a twist, but it's nice that the medium got you guys to talk and think about it. Accept that not everyone is going to share your views and try not to go on a holy crusade about it.
Charles Wilson
It's simple. You just look in the monster manual and see if it says "evil" under the race/species you're currently considering genociding. If that's the case, you're free to murder as many of them as you wish, because in D&D, good and evil has very little to do with actual morals and is rather based on the whims of the gods.
I repeat: You're in the clear as long as they're evil! :) Hope this helps
Tyler White
>Good enough mental backflip for the majority of religious cleansing.
Well, save that Kikanuti the Neutral Good Goblin Goddess exists.
Lucas Rodriguez
That's actually quite clever. I think I'll use that.
Andrew Rivera
>Stories are told of ogres—horrendous stories of brutality and savagery, cannibalism and torture. Of rape and dismemberment, necrophilia, incest, mutilation, and all manners of hideous murder. Those who have not encountered ogres know the stories as warnings. Those who have survived such encounters know these tales to be tame compared to the truth.
>An ogre revels in the misery of others. When smaller races aren't available to crush between meaty fists or defile in blood-red lusts of violence, they turn to each other for entertainment. Nothing is taboo in ogre society. One would think that, left to themselves, an ogre tribe would quickly tear itself apart, with only the strongest surviving in the end—yet if there is one thing ogres respect, it is family.
>Ogre tribes are known as families, and many of their deformities and hideous features arise from the common practice of incest. The leader of a tribe is most often the father of the tribe, although in some cases a particularly violent or domineering ogress claims the title of mother. Ogre tribes bicker among themselves, a trait that thankfully keeps them busy and turned against each other rather than neighboring races.
>Regions inhabited by ogres are dreary, ugly places, for these giants dwell in squalor and see little need to live in harmony with their environment. The borderland between civilization and ogre territory is a desperate realm of outcasts and despair, for here dwell the ogrekin, the deformed offspring and results of frequent ogre raids against the lands of the smaller folk.
>Ogre games are violent and cruel, and victims they use for entertainment are lucky if they die the first day. Ogres' cruel senses of humor are the only way their crude minds show any spark of creativity, and the tools and methods of torture ogres devise are always nightmarish.
Liam Price
In AD&D and 2e, Goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, and orcs were all evil all the time. There were no 'outliers' or 'usually evil' in their stats (as opposed to those creatures which are actually listed as "usually X"). They were evil by nature making killing even the younglings a good act.
Matthew Anderson
I'm sorry dearie, you seem to have taken a wrong turn. /pol/ is thataway.
Wyatt Miller
Meriadar is a LN goblinoid god of tolerance and mediation. By failing to attempt to convert them to his worship, you are guilty of genocide.
Sebastian Martinez
>Meriadar He's a mongrelfolk god, not a goblin deity.
You racist.
Jack Morris
Pathfinder ogres are just the redneck mutants from The Hills Have Eyes.
Chase Rogers
>Meriadar is associated with all the goblinkin pantheons, but not really a full member of any of them. He represents an oppositional force to them all, peaceful where they are warlike, and accepting where they are oppressive. While he opposes the pantheons of the orcish, goblin, and kobold gods, he does share a desire for structured, ordered, and rule-bound living; as such he holds a deep antipathy for the bugbear gods and especially prizes that race as followers. While the bugbear deities and most of the other goblinkin deities actively oppose the workings of the Patient One, the only power who hunts Meriadar and his followers in order to slay them or disrupt their activities is Stalker. The Cold Death is filled with a deep hatred towards all life and everything productive, thus putting him directly at odds with the goals of the Tolerant One. For his part, Meriadar’s respect and tolerance for life leads him to thwart the Hateful Shadow’s attempts at consuming goblinkin souls, even evil ones. Through these actions, he shows the goblin races the value of life and respect for both living and dead.
--Monster Mythology
Christopher Edwards
I guess it depends on which addition. Meriadar wasn't in 3rd at all.
Charles Ramirez
> burns children and executes childhood servants to boost his ego > defies any order or authority, at every opportunity, until someone breaks his will by torture >neutral
> part of a tribe that raids villages and slaughters peasants as an intimidation strategy > good
this one doenst really work well with GoT really, with the characters having actual motives and all that.
Luis Collins
Just use the usual excuses. >They were assholes >They were in the land that we wanted that God promised us >They were sinful and God ordered their destruction
Nathaniel Price
...
Oliver Hall
Where is this from?
Jaxon Nguyen
The 5e PHB, dipshit.
Connor Nguyen
Not everyone reads trash, kiddo
Noah Watson
Why not kill them to show other Ogres you can, if theres Ogres running around raping and pillaging at will with noone stopping them, its perfectly justified to scare the hell out of any other Ogres by killing all of them that you see and then going out of your way to find more.
Christopher Perry
Because I'm supposed to be familiar with every flavor of the month game and recognize which of 7 different game books your snippet comes from? Forgive me for my lack of slavish devotion to d&d!
Jackson Torres
>D&D >flavor of the month
Easton Clark
>Danzig Massacres >Germany considered worst country on planet >France controlling much of Germany's infastructure >French soldiers beating German civilians >mass reparations for a war they didnt start and didnt want to start >not justifiable Wew lad propaganda harder >inb4 muh holocaust Didnt happen, get over it and go back to the original debate topic of Goblins in DnD kiddo.
Henry Foster
>yadda yadda genocide, yadda yadda morally justifiable, yadda yadda ethics, yadda yadda morals Since when did Veeky Forums become the go-to board for discussing morality? Two, three years ago? We have these discussions like every single fucking day, with the same arguments and shitposting. I'd understad it if there were some new arguments in here, but instead you are regurgitating it on and on and on and on - literally not a single new argument comes up in these threads. I just want to play my murderhobo power fantasy. Fucking Peanuts, man.
Christopher Hall
Kamigawa, you mean. Konda kidnapped O-Kagachi's daughter. Lorwyn is a great example of "less than upstanding white creatures", though!
Jaxson Ward
Kek, so much this, and a morality in Warhammer conversation would be hilarious. >is it right for the vampire counts to kill beastmen?
Connor Turner
>Brutality and savagery >Rape, incest, and mutilation >And that's the tame shit Does it not sound awesome to you?
Gabriel Wood
go back to /pol/
Dylan Evans
>Do you think it would be considered morally justifiable for Khorne's chosen to mercilessly slaughter the inhabitants of the Badlands or Mousillion?
Camden Sanchez
I remember LE wizard in our party who did something similar... and was very sad when someone actually surrendered.
Adam Powell
Personality is %60-%70 genetics. If you are genetically predisposed to be aggressive and irrational (comparatively) your race will be considered evil.
