D&D is the best fantasy tabletop RPG, and the best edition is S&W

That's actually cool as all hell.

Anybody care to chime in on whether this fixes "caster supremacy" at all?

The proficiency system was garbage before the skill system was garbage. The precursor to feats, Skills & Powers, was also garbage.

Caster bullshit, not so much. 3.x took off all the limiters in one go.

OSR games and older editions of DnD don't have caster supremacy (with the possible exception of adnd 2e if you don't use the combat and tactics splat). There's nothing to 'fix'.

Spell scarcity. Valuable material components consumed on casting. Casting times in the multiples of rounds, with damage automatically breaking concentration (outside of a specific Spells & Magic NWP). Limited spell slots. Less scalar utility for specific spells as casterlvl increased. Spending nearly half your adventuring career as an incredibly fragile glass cannon.

Caster supremacy is a 3.x problem.

>The proficiency system was garbage before the skill system was garbage.
That's nice. But S&W doesn't have proficiencies either. Those were introduced in AD&D and S&W is a clone of OD&D.

I'm assuming this is tongue in cheek, as literally none of your criticisms apply to S&W.

>D&D is the best fantasy tabletop RPG
That's a retroclone, so technically not D&D
>muh feats
Were only in D&D post-TSR
>muh skillz
NWPs were sort-of skills, though not in the sense you're referring to.
But S&W retroclones an edition that predates even NWPs.
>muh combat where casters run shit from level one and everyone else just sits around
In TSR-era campaigns tended to end before 12 and living to 9th level was extremely rare.
Magic users only started running shit after 15+, that particular system caps at 16.
>muh combat that lasts 45 minutes even if you're just fighting a few bugbears
Very simple combat system, rounds took around a minute out of game.
(Incidentally, they also represented a minute of in game time.)
That fight would be abnormally long if it took 12 rounds.

Why would you make a post about a topic you don't know anything about?

thats looks rly gay lol

Skills & Powers wasn't a precursor to feats, but you're right to call it garbage.
It was easily the worst book in Player's Option, itself TSR's worst D&D product line.

hahaha you must suck at the game then and probably can't understand very direct rules.

i've been dm'ing for a group of guys for about a year now and combat used to take awhile but now all the guys know how to play so its really fluid even when fighting big mobs.

hahahahaha

Word.

I still have them though.

We are talking about d&d.
You are talking about 3.pf.
They are not the same.

why all the hate for 3.5???

the same reason /mu/ listens to mixtapes of train sounds instead of music

Me too. :^(

Because it fucking deserves it, that's why.

But user, S&W doesn't have OD&D Psionics or Chainmail combat.

Because it led to people thinking comprises everything of the game, and anything different clearly isn't d&d.

True. In reality: feats debuted in 1992. The origin of feats, in D&D, is the Celts Campaign Sourcebook.

You can tack the former on and the latter isn't as good as S&W's combat.

OD&D psionics was mechanically garbage, that Gygax never ran the system even once didn't help.
The powers were great though.

It's a shame the 1e transition screwed so much of the sysstem up.
I mean, with how badly Eldritch Wizardry (and Psionics in particular) were organized, I'm not surprised.
Lets constantly reuse the same three words in ten similarly functioning keywords that you have to cross-reference separately!
But the power writeups were largely self contained, so it's weird the 1e transition warped them so much.

>>D&D is the best fantasy tabletop RPG
>That's a retroclone, so technically not D&D
I would genuinely like to know more about this bit, do you mean it's not part of the official D&D brand?

Not that user, but yes. When WotC released the OGL, it meant that people making third party things could use terms like "hit dice" and so on, which made it possible to make and sell clones of old school D&D.

Swords & Wizardry is a clone of OD&D, but reprinted with a bunch of supplementary material, in one big book, and organized and explained better.

Why is od&d and clones better than ad&d and clones or ad&d2 & clones?

Like said. It's Pathfinder but for OD&D, if that makes sense to you.

OD&D has a helluva lot less clutter, and the core booklets lead to something with pretty decent bounded math and something quite a bit lower-powered than AD&D. 6th level spells are the best ones in the LBBs, for instance, and artifacts aren't a thing yet.
The LBBs also have an interestign thing where none of the classic D&D monsters are in there yet, so it's mostly just greek mythology mixed with hammer horror and Tolkien.

Also, AD&D doesn't exactly have that many clones. There's what, OSRIC and Hackmaster?

What did 2e change to possibly break fighters? Is it just sheer spell volume?

forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?665226-A-Master-List-of-D-amp-D-Retro-Clones

Osric and labyrinth Lord advanced

2e has for gold & glory and myth & magic.

Hackmaster is its own weird thing.

Personally i don't like how rigid characters can be in older d&d, and want separate races and classes at the very least, preferably more flexibility than that.

>more flexibility
[muffled 'muh kits' in the distance]

Nah. I was actually referring to "muh gurps 4e/dungeon fantasy", or muh "mythras classic fantasy", or "muh unisystem" which is what I'm more inclined to pick for a dungeon crawl these days.

I don't mind levels, but I'm inclined to go classless buy what you want with points.

Actually OP the best edition of D&D is Dungeon World.

Basically, it's the best RPG currently out there. It has fast, light, innovative rules that encourage player creativity.

Last session I played in Dungeon World, my fighter wrapped a vampire in a bear hug and wrestled him out a window. That is real roleplaying, not babby 3.5 shit. You know what it took to resolve it? One simple roll. One. Simple. Roll.

It's as easy as that! Whereas in AD&D you'd have to look up shitloads of rules in the grappling section and furiously shlick Wizards' peen for them.

When you are playing D&D, you are playing for the developers' satisfaction.

When you are playing Dungeon World, you are playing for YOUR satisfaction.

It was also made by Adam Koebel and Sage LaTorra who are game design GENIUSES. Like i can't say enough good things about these guys. They took some half-formed ideas from Apocalypse World, which was a mess of a game, and turned it into a fantastic fantasy RPG that lets you do anything. you. want.

Whereas D&D? Let's you do whatever the rules say you can do.

Big difference.

When exactly was your last session of dw?

I've seen this "wrestled a vampire" past like a dozen times spread out over months.

Can't get anyone to play dw with you?

>It's as easy as that! Whereas in AD&D you'd have to look up shitloads of rules in the grappling section and furiously shlick Wizards' peen for them.
Good thing this isn't an AD&D thread, then!

Also, good god that sure is a troll post. I hope you made sure to get paid for that, because you're wasting your talents doing this for free.

Wrestling a vampire sounds like a terribly idea, to be honest. Mostly because of the biting thing, but also because the shapeshifting would probably nullify a lot of the pinning aspects.

Also, wrestling a vampire out a window sounds like a good way to let the vampire escape, unless you're doing it during the day in which case why didn't you just open the goddamn curtains?

>seems to have cut down on the amount of shitposting about other editions.
Good on you. Looks like you're improving your sales pitch like I suggested.

Though OP isn't talking about AD&D he's talking about OD&D/D&D 1974.

Hey OP, how would you grapple a vampire and wrestle him out a window in S&W?

The worst part of having this particular shitposter is that I think Dungeon World offers some interesting design elements that are worth talking about and he's pretty much guaranteed we won't be able to have anything approaching a civil discussion about the system for a very long time around here

>Want to talk about dw seriously instead of any mention of the system now making you seen as a a shill/troll and any discussion of dw being considered a joke.
Yeah, that's not going to happen any time soon. This particular shitposter has definitely hindered your odds of that happening.

>Hey OP, how would you grapple a vampire and wrestle him out a window in S&W?
Speaking as someone who knows jack shit about S&W but adores OD&D, if it has any rules on the subject at all then it has more than OD&D.

In OD&D that would be a "ask your DM" situation, I think, although I suspect it would mostly just be a bunch of attack rolls. Or maybe it's a bunch of attack rolls at a penalty followed by percentile dice trying to get higher than the vampire's remaining hit points, like the rules for nonlethal fights vs. dragons (so that you can sell them into slavery or use them as mounts or whatever.)
Note that that's the only place where nonlethal fights are detailed, because OD&D is not a very well-organized system.

Oh wait, there's a neatish martial arts system in one of the magazines meant for use in Monk vs. Monk advancement matches, although that's also a pretty complicated rock-paper-scissors-esque minigame, like a lot of OD&D stuff - seriously, naval and air combat is two separate little wargames and jousting has you pull out charts to decide where you aim and how you dodge and compare the two to see who won.

I'm kind of glad that all those little subsystems have gotten removed in later days as people have moved to more unified systems, but at the same time it's also a little sad.

Not that guy, but I think the worst thing is that I honestly can't tell whether or not your post is sarcastic.

NONE of this is shitposting and you need to get the fuck over that.

You are only angry over it because I actually have the balls to throw back everything you dirty "rollplay" faggots have thrown at us.

I have no respect for your shitty books full of rules. That isn't fun. It puts rules first, not fiction first, like it is supposed to be.

You prop up terribly designed systems that have ZERO. FUCKING. MERIT. Please direct me to the last time D&D came up with an original idea? Oh wait, never! Even the latest edition ripped off bonds from DUNGEON WORLD ITSELF. Except the D&D version was more restrictive, shittier, and less related to roleplay.

When a game is stealing ideas from a game literally based off itself except better, I think it's time for a change.

And that change is playing Dungeon World. The rules are free. You have NO EXCUSE not to try it. Except your own cowardice, ignorance, and lack of competence as a roleplayer. Don't know anyone who plays Dungeon World? TEACH. THEM. It's not that hard! It's sure a fucklot easier than teaching fucking D&D and it's 500 page rulebook!!

How fucking hard is it to just give that new game a try? But no, let's play Pathfinder, since we know that system well.

Kill yourselves. I have tried to help you see the light, and you close-minded fucks have rejected it every time, with ZERO JUSTIFICATION. You have ZERO JUSTIFICATION for not trying Dungeon World and in my personal opini you should all ahve your fucking D&D books confiscatde from you until you give D&D a try, like an ignorant chidl who doesn't get his ice cream until he eats his brussels sprouts. Except unlike brussels sprouts and ice cream, Dungeon World is FAR superior to D&D, in EVERY POSSIBLE FUCKING WAY.

>Hey OP, how would you grapple a vampire and wrestle him out a window in S&W?

I don't fucking know and I don't fucking care, but all I need to do it in DUNGEON WORLD (a much superior designed system with ACTUAL DESIGN GOALS, not "imitate some shitty wargame clones from 1985") is to roll a 7+ which is how all actions are resolved. Unlike your shitty attack matrix THAC0 bullshit.

>In OD&D that would be a "ask your DM" situation, I think, although I suspect it would mostly just be a bunch of attack rolls. Or maybe it's a bunch of attack rolls at a penalty followed by percentile dice trying to get higher than the vampire's remaining hit points, like the rules for nonlethal fights vs. dragons (so that you can sell them into slavery or use them as mounts or whatever.)

Or you could just play Dungeon World which uses a unified mechanic for action resolution, unlike the fucking DISASTER you just described.

Because OD&D is better than AD&D. The only advantage AD&D even has over BD&D is that race + class is better than race-as-class.
0e has separate races and classes. Race-as-class was added in Basic.
Why do people still respond to this pasta?

OP here. I'm not sure. The DM would just wing it. I'd probably just have you roll an attack and if it hits, you've grabbed the vampire, so then you roll d20+strength mod vs. the vampire's d20+HD (or strength mod if it has one), with strength mod defined as the amount of bonus damage you do due to strength (meaning fighters can get a bonus but nobody else can).

I was not being sarcastic.

That particular shit poster has been coming into every d&d that for a while spouting a very similar dw sales pitch and then fighting with people about whatever edition of d&d the thread is for telling them they're edition is shit because of a bunch of reasons he just made up that aren't true, and making wild claims about dw that are also not true, like it inventing degrees of success, when they've been around since marvel super heroes in 84, if not longer.

You bring up dw now, everyone is going to assume you're a troll, and nobody will take you seriously.

At least he hasn't invaded the OSR general.

Also, that shitposter is Virt. He once forgot to take his trip off when he posted that.

Oh.

There he is.

This is why nobody will take you seriously if you try to have a discussion about dungeon world, regardless of any merits it has.

Personally? It was okay I guess.

I don't much care for anything apocalypse world and prefer roleplaying games to storygames because i don't really like out-of-character scene editing mechanics as a player or as a gm.

I'd play dw if a friend really wanted to. But if I'm picking the game system it would not be in my first 10 choices. If i were specifically picking a storygames system id be more inclined to pick dresden files or fate core.

Swords & Wizardry Whitebox has 17 pages of actual rules, and that includes character creation, action resolution, special character abilities like turning undead, and a gameplay example. Everything after that is a list of spells and monsters and shit. The whole book comes in at 64 pages.

Also

>It puts rules first, not fiction first, like it is supposed to be.
It puts gameplay first, which is what rules exist to serve. The "story" emerges out of whether or not you do a good job playing a game.

A DUNGEON CRAWL IS A GAME THAT YOU CAN WIN OR LOSE. YOU CAN BE BAD AT A DUNGEON CRAWL, AND AS A RESULT YOUR CHARACTER DIED. YOUR CHARACTER DOES NOT SURVIVE UNTIL THE MOST DRAMATIC MOMENT FOR A CHARACTER DEATH. IT SURVIVES UNTIL IT DIES BECAUSE OF THE RULES OF THE GAME. WANT TO LIVE LONGER? GIT GUD.

ROLLPLAYING > ROLEPLAYING

Dragon Warriors > D&D

Dragon Warrior > Dragon Warriors

> The only advantage AD&D even has over BD&D is that race + class is better than race-as-class.
AD&D has many advantages over the Basic line, but that's not one of them.

>0e has separate races and classes.
Technically true, but Whitebox ties race and class pretty tightly.

>Why do people still respond to this pasta?
Not everyone recognizes it.

Or fate accelerated.

But if not limited to storygames?

Dungeon fantasy > mythras > cinematic unisystem > brp > fantasycraft > 5e > savage worlds > 4e > 2e > various fate > apocalypse world Conan > dungeon world > ad&d.

Haven't tried the pre ad&d or most of their clones, but i did not enjoy tunnels & trolls, which i know is similar but different.

So why swords and wizardry instead of one of the other 0e retroclones?

It has the most complete list of classes, allows you to choose between ascending and descending AC (I'm fine with either and generally choose depending on whether my group has played more new D&D or more old school D&D), has what I think are very good rules for combat (see initiative described in ), and generally feels the most like playing 0e to me.

The only thing I borrow from another clone is LotFP's way of handling encumbrance.

It totally is D&D, though. Labyrinth Lord is D&D, and LotFP is D&D, too.

post S&W pdf?

irontavern.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Swords-Wizardry-Complete-revised.pdf

My favourite DnDs are BECMI (Darker Dungeons retroclone works well and is free) and 4e. Both of them know what they're about, and do it well.

ODnD is incomplete, 1e and 2e are clunky, 3e and 5e are caster supremacy (and at least 3e is interesting, 5e is dull as dishwater) and there's not really anything wrong with B/X, I just like BECMI a little better.

Dungeon World is better than most DnD editions and is a better starter game than most, but only because so much of the competition is shit. Many of its siblings games are better.

>Dungeon World is better than most DnD editions
Really, I'd say that if the edition has "edition" somewhere in its commonly-used name then Dungeon World probably has the advantage.

Unless you're going for the detailed combat and whatnot, in which case you'll want 4E. But for the way that it seems that most people like to play D&D, with the rules mostly being easily-forgotten guidelines and the Theater of the Mind is king? Yeah, DW probably handles that better than 5E or AD&D.

Basic and OD&D are light enough on the rules that I wouldn't say that DW has much of an advantage there, though.

>Pathfinder

Not even close to what we're talkin' about sperg. Here's your (You).