Warhammer 18th century

What if the world of Warhammer Fantasy advanced to the 18th century?

Which factions would be predominant? What would elves, dwarves, orcs and goblins look like in the gunpowder era?

Would the Empire be as strong as it is now? Would Brettonia get some sort of Louis XIV character and rise to hegemony?

Would the orcs be able to field an effective battle line? In 40k they are assumed to have basic mechanical skills, so it's safe to say they can operate muskets and cannon.

I would love to see some artistic adaptations of WFB factions having advanced technologically a few centuries. Elves in 18th century style uniform would be awesome.

Thoughts? Ideas? Personally I think it's an exciting concept.

The empire is ascendent while the Elves struggle to adapt. The Dwarfs have pushed the Greenskins out and have reclaimed much of their holds. The Ogres still hold dominion over their mountains and foght as mercenaries in the many conflicts of the Old World. Lustria is under assault by Skaven and Humans while the Bampires have manipulated their way into the very heart of the Empires governance. It is age where science and reason have triumphed over dark magic and superstition but it is still an age of war.

Would an age of Imperialism set in?

Would Araby have become some great existential threat like the ottomans?

What would remain of the Lizardmen, assuming some Estalian Cortez character brought them to their knees?

Would Albion have eventually become relevant after an Elizabethan age, modernized to the same point as the other factions?

How would the Ogres go to battle? Would they all wield cannons?

What about chaos? Gunpowder use is plausible to the Greenskins, but I have a hard time imagining Chaos picking up guns, unless there was some development where the Warriors from the North were totally defeated and the new Chaos faction was some sort of Empire rebellion a la 30 years war protestant/catholic divide.

The more I think about this, the more it excites me.

So the armies would be as follows:

Empire(merged with VC)
Skaven
High Elves
Tilea
Estalia
Dwarfs
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Cultists(old WOC merged with imperial style units and beastmen fodder)
Lizardmen
Skink Empires
Ogre Dominions(OK + O&G)

Yes

No

Skink Client States while the few remaining Slaan hold out in the deep jungle with the aid of the artifacts of the Old Ones

No

Yep probably looted hellblasters too

Chaos would mostly be cultist armies and Daemons

I like your answers, except for Albion and Araby. Would that be too confusing? I feel like there wouldn't be a whole lot of room for the orcs to be truly a threat, with so many great human powers.

Do you feel like Brettonia should be modernized or still be 50-100 years behind militarily

Brettonia would probably be some french revolutionary esque state or conquered by the Empire. As for Araby well the Ogres kind of fill the Ottoman thing(down to the giant cannons)

>Chaos Cultists(old WOC merged with imperial style units and beastmen fodder)

I think the Warriors of Chaos and the Beastmen would stay pretty solidly together. They can be bulletproof while still being fairly fast (WOC) or specialize in uneven guerrilla combat (Beastmen). The Iberians and redcoats were often outmatched by big French columns that could take a pounding and keep going straight through their line, and that was with a century more of infantry tactics. Imagine what a horde of beastmen, concealed with magic (of which there are several different variations in WHF) to reduce accuracy and rushing in a looser horde could do. Sure, they'd take losses, but they'd make it close enough to rip into the humans.

That's one thing that nobody has brought up- many of the races of the Old World are inclined to stick with melee, either because they are faster than humans (Elves, Skaven), stronger than humans (Orcs, Ogres, Chaos, actually most of them), or better able to push through the lead hail at 15-second intervals (Undead of all stripes, Orcs, Ogres, etc). There's a reason the humans still have plenty of greatswords and well-armoured knights, and it's not just that the handgun tech is a bit primitive.

See I think you could do the Brets either way, Louis XIV or Napoleonic, either way I feel like they ought to be the major human faction instead of the Empire in the new setting.

Obviously the old imperial domains are fractured, but will there be some type of Austrian/Habsburg analog in the east?

Let's say middenland is Prussia. Does Kislev get some Peter The Great Character to compensate?

But let's get back to the Orcs. Have they become a lesser power, subjugated by the military superiority of mankind or are they still a major threat?

The cultists seem a bit far fetched, as far as being able to actually deploy full armies, unless they are some bastard combination of empire/woc/beastmen as you've suggested.

In my mind I was picturing more of a Horus Heresy/30 years war scenario (or a combination of the two) where there are distinctly chaotic human city states, sort of a complete reverting to chaos, where the armies are really just evil humans augmented with demonic characters and warmachines, like the CSM. They would fight very similarly to normal humans (line infantry) but have an evil look to them and special rules, etc...

I dunno. It's a very big question. Adapting this setting to a factual historic development is extremely complicated. But I really like where we are headed here.

Nah, make Bret like Britain, the major colonial and sea power. While the Empire is Napoleon's empire.

>Chaotic city state

user, we need to sit down and talk about what Chaos is. Chaos is not just 'a bunch of assholes'. They may occasionally gather in one place and be beaten into doing something, but the idea of a structured government that survives and continues to produce anything but hellspawn and misery is antithetical to the whole operation. Even Chaos Dwarves, who are the least chaotic of the followers of Chaos (likely because of their natural immunity) survive only by trading slaves with less organized warbands and raiding caravans for su.

That is an interesting albeit far simpler development, and frankly it does make a lot of sense. The real question you raise is whether or not the Empire really ought to remain "The Empire" or go the historical route of disintegrating the way it did.

Considering Warhammer has no real analog to Charles V, uniting most of the old world under one "banner" it's hard to gauge how the political development progresses. I would argue that this continuation should stay in line with the fluff and keep its historical grounding. Personally it's why I find Warhammer so intriguing to begin with; no other fantasy setting really juxtaposes stages of human development as well as WFB.

>Warhammer has no real analog to Charles V

What did you say, heretic?

Everyone didn't start kneeling before the hammer, but he did bring all the feuding imperial states into line, and established strong ties with the High Elves. Combined with the friendly relationships with Bretonnia and the Dwarves, they're already aligned.

I am imagining the Chaotic corruption being similar to Vampiric corruption in the sense that the leader himself becomes corrupted, but for reasons of power remains somewhat normal to his followers, in order to execute his agenda and increase influence.

The inhabitants of the Empire respect order fundamentally and therefore need actual leadership and direction, not just "kill, maim, burn!"

Which is why I proposed that the warriors of the north were defeated, and now the Gods must act more subtly, corrupting the government in less obvious ways, until it erupts in devastating civil war, where both sides are truly fighting for their religions.

The Empire (Sigmar/Catholics) against protestants (chaos/Sweden). You know?

Another thing about chaos corruption is that it is directed by a God which is by definition Sentient. This conscience is scheming and malicious, and can be as rambunctious or subtly meddling as it likes.

So assume a scenario where the Storm of Chaos campaigns went heavily in favor of the forces of order. Chaos is almost completely eradicated in a few decisive battles and the forces of Men, Elves and Dwarfs begin to finally claim the north for themselves. Chaos is resisted almost completely for a century and the threat fades into memory.

Until now, a new age, where the old world loses focus. Looking outward, the forces of order begin taking whole masses of the globe for their own.

>High Elves taking control of Cathay
>Brettonians subjugating Dark Elves in Naggaroth
>Estalians conquering Lustria
>Tilea dominating the Dwarfs in trade
>Arabyan Sultans channeling the Tomb Kings to do their bidding
>Kislev pushing back the Ogre kingdoms deep into the east

And the Empire, drunk on its economic superiority, looks outwards to the globe. The Dark Gods know this and are beginning to make a move, corrupting governors here and there, driving an elector count (or two) mad. The Empire is divided, fighting between the old Gods and the New.

These corrupted Imperial armies are not openly chaotic, in fact they look rather normal. Except now their shields are adorned by tasteful Chaotic insignia rather than that of Sigmar. Their armor and dress is roughly twinged the color of their patron god and they exhibit only barely discernible traits of their respective mark. Khornate Cuirassers are particularly noticeable as they become ravenously bloodthirsty on the charge. But as a whole these armies are far more refined and dignified than the Chaos armies of old.

I'm trying to envision a sober world where the Western Human Domains are on top politically and economically, despite the continued existence of the remaining races of the world.

So already the Skaven have some advanced firearms the likes of actual Gatling Guns and Sniper Rifles and an abundance of muskets.

In this 18th century Warhammer, and in keeping with them having more advanced firearm concepts than most of the rest of the world, would it be acceptable to mold the Skaven into a more WW1 Deutsches Heer or even WW2 Wermacht vibe?

Instead of a ratling gun say, a Maxim or MG34 Ratling gun, and Jezzail's being replaced with bolt action rifles?

Well if your talking about how Storm of Choas should have gone then Tomb Kings were big Order contributors. I kind of like the idea of them finding a way to reverse partly or fully the corruption of the great waterways and making part of the land lush again.

TKs would be a mix of living and undead units, a land under the staggering weight of tradition but also busing with pioneer spirt from the population boom of new settlers being invited in to making a home in the revived land.

Good friction of people trying to figure out how social mobility working when the man above you can never die.

Revival of the Mortuary Cult and other institutions then being filled with warm and cold bodies as the demands of the empire explode with the tidal waves of immigration.

On the table they'd deal in unbreakable but limited line infantry supporting large Malitia units.

Conventional artillery bought from The Empire mixed with wicked bone magic augmentations to do silly shit like quick lime that toughness up the skeletons.

I think you are trying to force the 30 years war thing too much. It's not even 18th century. Maybe something more like the war of spanish succession or the seven years war?

More like Sigmar vs Myrmidia.

This thought does genuinely terrify me. What would be their weakness though?

Still just as divided. Skaven technology advances rapidly, but the Skaven as a whole are held back due to their own predilection towards backstabbing and paranoia.

The skaven would destroy itself.

Europe was divided and far less numerous when they took over the globe.

Massive awakening to their presence and then a concerted between other factions to eradicate them?

Thus forcing the large concentrations into the badlands where resources are scare but their science is solid so they skip straight past the modern era to becoming Mad Max warbands draped in dieselpunk sensibilities.

Just an idea.

We're talking Slav/balkan levels of internal conflicts here, possibly to the point of enjoying self conquest more than actual external conquest

I like the dieselpunk, but I also like the idea of knowledge of Skaven still being ignored and suppressed, despite everything. This is still Warhammer, after all.

Maybe Clan Pestelins goes hot and starts dropping bioweapons all over the Under-Empire in a bid to take control, and the Council of Thirteen fights back? You get Skyre as the power of the Council, Pestelins as their main enemy, Clan Moulder splintered (some with the Council, some with Pestelins, some making their own independent kingdom in the North harvesting settlers) and the majority of the minor clans throwing in with either side and flip-flopping based on who is winning today.

even less reliable

Admittedly, the rise of urbanization in the later 18th century would greatly aid the spread of the Skaven. More sewers and tunnels for them to hide in and unsanitary conditions work in their favor.

What happens? Why glorious NULNDON Of course!

Most importantly, everyone would have OUTRAGEOUS wigs. The Empire would be at a new height of power but revolution would be stirring, and behind every other revolutionary band would obviously be a chaos cult.

It would be great fun, basically.

>slaaneshi jacobins.

I'm okay with this

I think the revolutionaries would be mainly Tzeentchian. Slaanesh would be having great fun with all the foppish nobility instead.

Philosophes would be subtly suggesting that the gods aren't real, Sigmar was just a dude with a hammer, magic operates according to perfectly comprehensible natural principles and daemonic possession is a myth.

The Chaos Gods would of course love them.

An important thing to consider is that 18th warfare depended very much on breaking the morale of the enemy through massed volleys. As many factions in war hammer are either much harder to kill, or have far better morale then your average regiment of humans, it is quite likely that warfare in the war hammer world would differ significantly from the warfare during the 18th century, even with the same technology.

I see the dark elves as being quite likely to industrialise and adopt gunpowder as soon as it becomes more reliable, as many of their iconic weapons such as respecter crossbows are adapted from other cultures and their cities are already massive enough that they are on the verge of industrialising.

The high elves would likely be more set in their ways and due to their immense magical power would probably be able to retain a great deal of relavence in the world, although their status as the most powerful force of order would be less certain.

I see Bretonnia becoming a major colonial power, possibly expanding into Araby and the southlands or even establishing a foothold in the new world. Meanwhile I see the empire either fracturing into warring provinces or uniting and attempting to establish hegemony over the other nations of the old world.

Cathy could become a major player if the threat of chaos is reduced and they could expand into Nippon and Ind.

And even in the 18th century, armor would've been pretty useful at stopping bullets - Chief Iron Jacket had an old suit of conquistador mail, and it supposedly took six shots to kill him. It's just that by that time in real history, armor had been phased out because the protection wasn't quite worth the cost of trying to equip everybody, and bright colored uniforms and organizing in big ranks to inaccurately shoot at each other was the norm. Honor was very important, and at least early in wars generals and captains would be doing chivalrous actions for enemy commanders.

Basically I don't think the Empire would be able to go fully 18th century like the 18th century was in real world history, because very few of the other factions would be willing to play by the 'civilized' rules that warfare used then.

No that's retarded.


A. Bulletproof armor was extremely thick and heavy compared to the armor of previous generations, which is why you only see them as cuirasses

B. There were a number of reasons that European armies formed up in tight ranks vs the looser formations of the eastern empires. The main reason being, shock was important. The purpose of fire(shooting) was to weaken and disorganize the enemy, not break them. Battles would often be decided by bayonet charges. In fact Napoleons most important contribution to the french army was probably the adoption of massed infantry columns that could assault the enemy. Another reason for the tight formation was drill, guns still weren't super lethal and it was hard to coordinate a lot of men that were very spread out. Finally cavalry really hadn't ceased to be a significant force at this point and a cavalry charge could turn a battle if the infantry weren't organized to repulse it.

This, can't really do a straight cut&paste of warhammer to 18th Century without really having to trample tons of stuff to fit. And if you did just a straight copy-paste of fantasy stuff you just get Flintloque, and no-one wants that.

So it'd be easier and probably more useful to simply track changes in style of warfare and society that can be paralleled, and work out how the improvements in industry and organisation would work when integrated with existing parts of the setting. Like is it worth moving from knights with lances to knights with pistols? Or is it smarter to have knights with both?

I'd be very wary of trying to have one nation achieve domination over another like the Empire vs Brettonia though as the world is set up so natural geographic boundaries (aka all those fuckheug mountain ranges) prevent that.

I really don't think the Warhammer world would stay in the 18th century all that long, I mean they already have a working steam engine and semi-modern rifles. My best guess is that after 10 or so years the Empire would undergo an industrial revolution at which point Chaos and the Greenskins would be absolutely fucked by things like machine guns and explosive artillery.

I think it could remain that way for a suitably long time, things in warhammer move in strange manners regarding time. For instance back in the (Empire) year 2000 with Mordheim, pistols were a fairly new but not uncommon thing. In the 2400s, pistols and other gunpowder weapons are still much the same, let alone everything else.

>Would the Empire be as strong as it is now?
Considering it'd be neither Holy nor Roman, no.

>Would Brettonia get some sort of Louis XIV character and rise to hegemony?
18th century includes the year 1799, which means Bretonnia would get Consul Napoleon. The best kind of Napoleon!

Agree with this, Trying to copy paste real world 18th century history directly into warhammer isn't going to work. Unless the setting started off like this in the first place.

Assuming that the empire had massive victories in the endtimes/storm of chaos event equivalent, I still don't think they'd ever go full uniforms and bayonets like in the real world. We'd see more cooperation between The colleges of magic and the engineering and gunner schools during that war, and this would continue on after that. Remember, the Empire has only recently had wizards and they are advancing magically as well as technologically. I don't think wizards or arcane battle altars or magi tech will go anywhere just because handguns and artillery become more prevalent. If anything we will have more fusion between those. I remember in Sigmars blood they had experimental rockets that created artificial daylight, and in end times the Bright wizards and engineers combined their wits to create tiny bombs that created much greater explosions than their size gave off. I also remember seeing that Gelt and the gold college would often develop better metals, gunpowders and explosives through the use of magic and sell them to the engineers.
After a few centuries the empire probably would have figured out how to advance their steam engines at least to the level of the dwarfs currently, and would finally have ironclads, gyrocopters and better steam tanks.

I want dandified dorfs in powdered wigs.

No dwarf would ever bring himself to wear a powdered wig

Now that's a good direction to take chaos.

I love that we're having fun with this idea. Still no one has really presented any thought out opinions on how to implement the orcs. I reckon they would make a hardy force if led properly. Lots of grenadiers.

Orcs remain orcs, if they start getting guns, well I doubt they'll be forming ranks and firing in volleys with them, more like firing off a bunch of pistols or just delegating them down to Goblins. Back to 3rd edition with goblin suicide bombers (intentional or otherwise) it'd be if handed grenades.

Black Orcs could have the discipline to use massed fire, but still would prefer not to, since orcs designate the people in the tribe that are kinda crap to be the shooty ones, and no black orc is that low on the social scale.

Orcs could get very Swedish with Carolean tactics where they just march up, shock with one large volley then charge to break and run down.

Maybe base the Orcs off the Iranians? A mix of archaic and modern forces with a high degree of mobility. Maybe some sort of Ghazgkull type figure who takes the role Nader Afsharid did?

I'm interested in the Dwarfs, they are super tradition bound so I can't see them adopting the new style of warfare without issues

>revolution would be stirring,

Isn't that already happening in the Empire?

>What would remain of the Lizardmen, assuming some Estalian Cortez character brought them to their knees?
I think that a Skaven Cortez would be more likely; although, thats forgetting that the Lizard men lack everything that hurt the Aztecs. Unlike the Aztecs, they arent totally unimune from disease, they are homogenus under the Slann, and they have Dinosaurs to help even the odds. Not to mention that the only reason Skaven can put such a dent into the Lizardmen is because their plagues are so fucking deadly, and the laughably huge hordes they have to throw into the grinder. To think that a Estalian could succeed where the Skaven, Warriors of Chaos and Dark elves failed is rather unlikely.

As for the rest of your questions, Maybe? A big difference is that when The Empire and Brettonia crusaded into Araby, they actually did a pretty good job of trashing the place, and killing their Sultan. So im not sure if they'd be so eager to have that happen again. Albion, in the Warhammer world, is still pretty much a place filled with Celts and Druids. So them rising to power would be rather strange.

Ogres already carry Cannons, leadbelchers, so its not too far off to have more and more ogres prefer them. I dont think they'd replace melee entireoly though. Greenskinz would like them, but just like non-empire Ogres, getting them would be dammably hard while Melee would still be relatively usable.

In my opinion, the problem with this scenario is that in the Warhammer world, most creatures eat bullets for breakfast and there is very little for them to colonize:
North America has the Dark Elves with Ulthuan inbetween
Down south is the death trap of Nehekara, before you reach the south most jungles
Lustria/South America is a cluster fuck of Lizardmen, Warriors of Chaos, Amazons, Skavens, Undead and a very very deadly jungle.
China has repelled many chaos invasions, and Japan is filled with Kitsune, Beastmen, Ninjas and the homelands of Clan Eshin.
Ind is possibly a good place to exploit, seeing as the Everqueen can punch through the beastmen every ten years. It wouldnt be too hard to establish a colony there, enslave the peoples and begin working it as a colony. Perhaos beastmen could be enslaved, or Undead are used as a cheap source of manpower? That would be the logical extensions of Necromancy and the growth of industry.

Nay, they shall wear powdered beards

>and behind every other revolutionary band would obviously be a chaos cult.

Already been done.

See: Beasts in Velvet

Honestly I'd just keep orcs as they are, and maybe add guns as warmachines. Classic organ gun style (historical not warhammer) with bundles of muskets rigged to go off together, maybe steal a few chaos dwarf blunderbuss, and perhaps attaching rockets to goblins for fun and fireworks.

There's always something like that going on, the empire is a big place after all.

If the empire advances technologically and magically, that doesn't mean the other factions do as well. If anything, the Empire ascendant would drive the beastmen back into the deepest woods and clear most of the greenskins out. Both would be occasional problems but ones that could be dealt with much more easily than they are currently. Just like in the time when the Elves and Dwarfs were ascendant and all the "evil" races were driven back to the point where they were considered minor threats. The skaven would be too scared to go after the Empire, but they would still be sabotaging, bribing and attempting to bring the empire down from the inside out. Same goes with chaos cults, those aren't disappearing anytime soon. The empire would start launching Retaliatory crusades against the Norse like they were before the end times, and the threat of chaos raids would be much reduced. With most of the bad guy races hiding or too scared to challenge Imperial Supremacy, they start turing their attentions towards Bretonnia, Kislev, Estalia and Tilea. Kislev would be first to fall and be brought into the imperial fold, while Tilea and the border princes are next. Bretonnia would be the hardest to take down due to their navy and the mountains separating the 2, and will likely remain as the chief rival for control of the old world. I'd rather see Bretonnia go full Magic than go full french revolution, with their faith in the lady being even more powerful and actually deflecting bullets and other non-chivalrous Weapons. In fact, Bretonia could be the primary reason why the empire still needs to invest heavily armored knights and melee troops.

Eh, I dont think invading Kislev would be all too good a Idea, nor does it make much sense. Even in the real world, England didnt invade Russia even though it was both far behind them technologically wise, and still running under feudalism. Infact, considering that Kislev has always been allies with the Empire, and is on par technologically wise, they might even go on to become minor rivals to the Empire. Plus, they work nicely as a buffer against the northern Chaos Wastes

I had a concept for a 19th century version of the Warhammer world a few months back, all I really got done was deciding what the human armies would be like:

>Empire
The most "modern" army. It has stuff like repeating rifles, machine guns, airships, and much improved steam tanks. Politically unchanged for the most part.
>Bretonnia
Underwent a peasant's revolt led by a Napoleon expy who united the kingdoms. It's now a French Empire-like entity that militarily focuses heavily on defense and artillery.
>Kislev
Politically unchanged. Replaces Bretonnia as cavalry spammers.
>Tilea
Went FULLREPUBLICANISM. It's military is ill-equipped and rather small but it makes up for these deficiencies with training and guerrilla warfare.
>Estalia
Gets into scuffles with the various factions while trying to extend their New World colonies. Has a rather outdated army.
>Araby
Sick man of the Old World.
>Cathay
19th century China without getting trampled by the European powers. Has to deal with lots of famines and rebellions.
>Nippon
19th century Japan that's rapidly industrializing. Has its sights set on the slowly-weakening Cathay.
>Ind
Getting colonized by Marienburg.

>Bretonnia focusing on Artillery and defense
>not knights gloriously charging into battle no matter the odds
>Kislev replacing them as the cavalry faction

Absolutely unchivalrous

Only two problems I see:

How the hell cpuld the peasants of Brettonia revolt? Even with a guy like Napoleon at the helm of them, they'd have to deal with the reality that not only are they under equipped, but they're going against Knights who are so righteous they can reverse reverse curve bullets, have the direct affluence of a Goddess, have no magic of their own, and that the average peasant is a inbred mess. This isnt getting into the fact that the Brets are also propped up by Athen Lorel.

As for Nippon, last I recall is that they have a majority of not-awful beastmen and are busy infighting.


Other than that, I like it.

>napoleon expy leads successful peasant revolt in his home town
>Every Knight in that Province unites against the peasants, fully supported by the damsels and knights in other provinces
>Napolean BTFO in first straight up battle against the knights
>other peasants see what happens if they try to revolt and never attempt it again

Most of the peasants wouldn't even want to join the revolt since they would see the knights as their protectors, and going against them is a sure way to get fucking killed. So not only would a peasant revolt have to deal with the Knights, but also the Damsels, the Fay Enchantress herself, Grail Knights, and the peasants who see no point in trying to change their circumstances when they know the knights will annihilate them badly

I could imagine that perhaps, MAYBE, a peasant revolt could work. Whst I imagine possibly happening is that perhaps a rather down trodden port city is supplied with arms and troops from the Empire Ascendent. Not every part of Brettonia is ruled by fair and just lords, so the oppressed middle class of traders revolts, along with the especially mistreated peasants. Here, Napoleon rises up, and leads the armed peasantry. It would be propped up by the Empire, acting as a way to hurt the Brets withoit directly coming to blows with them.

Still, its really unlikely

I could see a king there being a king whom while popular and even following the rules of chivalry, does shit that ultimately fucks with the elves during a time of a fairly successful, or atleast more competent and successful then usual, peasant revolt, causing the elves to abandon the Nobility and instead back the Napoleon guy instead.

Though I'm personally against it, if we're going to advance the factions, I'd like for all of them to continue the themes of the original ones, so hypothetical player bases won't be betrayed by their designated new factions being nothing like their old ones.

This is what I was thinking of.

Either way the revolt happens in the somewhat distant past and Bretonnia is currently ruled by the granddaughter of not-Napoleon.

Don't you think this is a little too real-life?

>I want dandified dorfs in powdered wigs.
>Dwarfs
>Not orcs

The only problem is that the Brettonian puppet state is held up by the idea of dumb peasants being kept in line by the work of the Wood Elves. The Bret's exist to protect Athen Lorel, and keep humanity away from the sacred woods. Feudalism works in this role by controlling the masses, the knights and lords are controlled by the laws of chivalry, which are regulated by damsels, ladies and their ilk. Thus, the Lady of the Lake is the only true controller of progress in Brettonia. Thus, I think the only way that progress would happen is through a sort of Magna Carta/Revolution of the Ideals of Brettonia. Persay we do have a bad king, but, at the same time, the Wood Elves realize that Brettonia will soon be outpaced when it cones to war. Thus, when Bretpoleon comes onto the scene, the reiging king is surprised to have the Ladies and Damsels of the lady support Bretpoleon instead of him. This divides the knights, but in the end, Bretpoleon wins.

This acts as a duel solution for the wood Elves: this roots out the not as chiviliraious knights, while also allowing the Brets to progress a little. Instead of Arthurian tales and Feudalism guiding the public, it is a sort of Rebuliquè patriotism, mixed with the remnants of the old Brettonian monarchy. Instead of being held by feudalism, they are controlled by nationlism, as Peasants think their free. But in reality, there miles and miles of Red Tape for any former Peasant wishing to do anything. The lady of the lake becones the Lady of Liberty, secretly enforcing this beaucracy, while the former nobility are the only ones allowed to cut through it all. The ruler of the Rebulique of Brettonia emphasizes the values of liberty and brotherhood, yet while also ensuring that Freedom does not spread to far, same as how the knights priorly upheld chivalry and yet went against it. Knights still function as Heros of the state however.

I think you've got the right idea.

The factions should undergo changes militarily but not lose their flavor. The Humans, although having the benefit of full gunpowder based forces, are not invincible... they merely now have the advantage as opposed to classic WFB where humans are usually the underdogs in a world of magic and mischief.

Technology pushing back the darkness but not totally supreme yet. Melee is still what decides close contests, but firepower generally dictates the order of battle.

I think in the case of Brettonia it would be smoother to just have Louis XIV analog rather than Nappy. Once we start putting enlightenment philosophy into WFB I think it's getting a little convoluted.

Louis was really just a damned proficient monarch with a great vision of his country. His likeness is more adaptable to WFB than ol' nappy quite frankly.

Honestly I'd prefer a move towards the 19th rather than 18th Century. Much more eurocentric, considering the main hallmarks of the 18th century were piracy in the West Indies, the Seven Years War which was global, the American Revolution, and the French Revolution which spilled over into the 19th Century as the Napoleonic Wars, which were Objectively better than the Revolutionary Wars.

The Empire evolves from a feudal system to a unitary state, and they give up puffy sleeves for pickelhauben.

Bretonnia, either a fucking French Revolution because they're French so they must have a revolution because that's what the French do, they carry on business as usual with knights and shit, or they become sort of a mix of the two, like how Khador is a mix of Tsarist and Communist Russia in Warmachine.

Dwarfs carry on as usual. They augment their defenses with technology, but they use outdated tactics on the battlefield.

Nobody cares about the unimportant nations like Estalia and Tilea, they're irrelevant. Kislev, we could do something with them, maybe the Vampire Counts got chased out to here and they took over. Talk about hemophilia.

Orcs... Are orcs, but with gatling guns and revolvers. Same for ogres.

Chaos is behind every other revolt, but not the hypothetical Bretonnian one.

Beastmen that aren't chased out of the Old World are negro slaves to the Empire, so the rest of them are super pissed.

Chaos is Chaos, now with guns. They had a brief stint like two hundred years before where they successfully held most of the Northern Empire, but then Everybody kicked their asses (Except Araby, because they're heretics).

Elves are the same. Dark Elf attention has turned to the Southlands where there are Imperial and maybe Bretonnian colonies that are easier to raid.

Skaven are still dicking around and have dug to Australia. Meanwhile, the Empire sends convicts to Australia to work in mines. Birth of the fantasy German Australians.

Witch hunters are still a thing, and guess who one of them is.

The Empire and Bretonnia tried setting up colonies in the New World, but the Dark Elves destroyed them. They moved west over the mountains and became elf-hunting cowboys. Whenever a dark elf band rolls into town and takes over a movie references helps the locals fight them off. Also brought beastmen with them, but a lot of them escaped and became Indians.

Lizardmen are still screwing around in Lustria. They won't be relevant until the rest of the world discovers football and joins them in the Great Cup.

>Beastmen that aren't chased out of the Old World are slaves to the Empire, so the rest of them are super pissed.
Also, some beastman slaves are too big for normal humans, so it's legally required in most places for slave-owners with larger slaves to hire an ogre supervisor called a bulldozer.

I've thought this over a bit and thought I'd expand on some things and make a few adjustments because I originally came up with the concept while taking a shit:

>Empire
Has evolved into a unified constitutional monarchy, with the current sovereign being Luitpold IV. Most of nation's power is held by Parliament, with the current Prime Minister being not-Otto von Bismarck.

>Bretonnia
Having listened to the various comments made in response to the original concept, I'll return them to a cavalry focus. The shock and melee cav that we all know and love is now augmented by a bunch of gun cav and light but highly mobile horse-towed artillery. I'm still keeping the peasant revolt idea, which means they're still a French Empire-esque monarchy led by Eugenie I, the granddaughter of not-Napoleon.

>Marienburg
The richest nation in the Old World with the second-biggest colonial empire, their army is mainly made up of mercenaries and native troops.

>Kislev
They're now the defense- and artillery-focused faction. Nothing has changed politically.

>Tilea/Estalia/Nippon/Cathay/Ind
Nothing has changed from the original version.

And now onto a few of the non-human factions:

>Dwarfs
Really have only made progress with helicopters technologically due to tradition, and for the same reasons their tactics are rather outdated.

>Vampire Counts
I don't have a fucking clue what to do with them, how do you bring spooky skellies into the 19th century? I guess you could just make their army up of vampires, having small but incredibly good units that are great at both melee and ranged combat.

>Skaven
Literally the same thing.

>Greenskins
More silly bullshit like Gatling guns made up of surplus muskets the Empire left in warehouses and forgot about a century ago. Also rocket goblins.

What happens to elves, i would imagine asrai becoming not!irish and immigrating to new world.

>>Vampire Counts
>I don't have a fucking clue what to do with them, how do you bring spooky skellies into the 19th century? I guess you could just make their army up of vampires, having small but incredibly good units that are great at both melee and ranged combat.
Maybe they took over Kislev. Maybe they no longer have a military force and just do like pic related.

This, petty much all of not-America is already occupied by civilizations that can crush a serious attempt at colonization from the Old World: The north half is filled with dark eves and warriors of chaos, and in the south, Lizardmen would flip their shit and brng forth their doomsday devices (read: Kroak) if there was a serious human invasion on top of the Skaven bullcrap they're dealing with already.

Them taking over somewhere is what I was originally going to go with, but wouldn't it conflict a bit with what the Lahmians are supposed to be doing?

The Lahmians maybe, but they're not the only bloodline.

> I'll return them to a cavalry focus
Their Cuirassier units would be cavalry with bullet resistant armor and would be able to attack on the move or engage in melee; their dragoon unit would be this high mobility gunline that might have dismount capability.

Good at horses goes beyond good horsemanship, like the fast moving artillery you mentioned. Overall new Bretonnia is going to embody what made Napoleon so successful, which is the power of logistics and strategic mobility.

>Revolution vs non-revolution
I think an Important element would be how the rebellion gave way to Chaos (maybe literally, Ill get to that later) where the nobility suffered but ended with Napoleon becoming an Emperor who brought about new styles of oppression to his people and ascended new nobility to replace the old. There was a revolution, but like most it gave minor concessions under the guise of major change.

Dark Elves and Chaos have to devote too much resources to stalemate each other, faced with the possibility of the other side gaining an advantage if they focus on the colonies they cede the poorly defensible regions of their territory to the Old Worlders out of practicality. The new colonies are located far enough away from the Lizardmen that they don't really care that much and it offers them an opportunity to destabilize the Dark Elves and Chaos.

There you go, not that hard.

Is the west side of the New World inhabited by the Dark Elves? If not then this idea works. >The Empire and Bretonnia tried setting up colonies in the New World, but the Dark Elves destroyed them. They moved west over the mountains and became elf-hunting cowboys. Whenever a dark elf band rolls into town and takes over a movie references helps the locals fight them off. Also brought beastmen with them, but a lot of them escaped and became Indians.

I meant that the Von Carsteins taking over Kislev would sort of conflict with the Lahmians role of being Warhammer's Illuminati.

The easiest option would be just locking the Carsteins and Lahmians in a shadow war over controlling the various governments of the Old World.

My major interest in this concept is doing Chaos some fucking justice before we turn them into retro 40KAYOS while exploring the philosophy that exists in this age. I suspect everyone will hate my ideas so feel free to nope them.

Chaos is no longer seen as this existential threat to life its self, but rather as a starkly anarcho nihilistic alternative to civilization and all of the other stuff Chaos wants to destroy. Instead of endlessly screeching for destruction it whispers into the ears of the helpless and tell them that civilization exists only to weaken man and hide the freedom of Chaos to them. Chaos is still here to wreck everyone shit, but it also promises that you as an individual will have a freer and more fair life in the wreckage.

In the age of 'rationality and reason' Chaos assumes new forms, it has gone from a corruption of spirit to the poisoning of the mind, for dark voices are now joined by philosophers who empower oblivion by merely discussing it. No longer is one turned by the machinations of evil, but also by reading of these ideologies with a sound mind. As Nietzsche claimed God was Dead and wrote of Perspectivism, the great minds who have accepted Chaos claim Sigmar is no more and that evil is in the eye of the beholder.

In practice, Chaos goes from the great horde Ala the huns to being an almost humanitarian/classically inspired sect that expresses its self in the form of peasant revolts or by passive ideas that undermine the empire. Just as the rights of man and liberal thinking was a threat to the conservative monarchies of the old world, it is in this one. Though like anarchists of the 19th century they bomb, raid, and devastate too much to be seen as 'the good guys.'

>I meant that the Von Carsteins taking over Kislev would sort of conflict with the Lahmians role of being Warhammer's Illuminati.
Fuck the Lahmians, I want to make hemophilia puns.

The problem is that you'd have refugees crossing Dark Elf lands and that'd unlikely leave enough people to have a stable population. Looking at the world map it might be easier to have them land south of Naggaroth then head west. Also beastmen already exist in the New World apparently.

Oh, and the last idea is they'd obviously be the Luddites smashing the machines. If anything industrialization would be at much greater risk of wiping out Chaos with endless production of very-unchaotic interchangeable parts and the creation of centralized armies.

Vampires are sterile senpai.

>The problem is that you'd have refugees crossing Dark Elf lands and that'd unlikely leave enough people to have a stable population. Looking at the world map it might be easier to have them land south of Naggaroth then head west
They could inhabit what would be the Louisiana Purchase. Have a massive port defended by great ironclads.

I never said I wanted babies.

So Foot Guards and Curaiseers with ward saves.

I like the idea of a large population of Ogres living in the Empire.

That's why I merged VC with Empire. It's kind of teased in the VC army books that Neferata is moving to take over so it makes sense that the vampires have enough political influence that necromancers raise zombies and skeletons to fight the enemies of the empire. Just treat them like skavenslaves, disposable chaff that holds the enemy while the troops shoot.

Two worlds for you: Chaos Romanticism.

Also you need to think about how Chaos would change in turn with the changing culture. The servant of Khorne is no longer the rampaging warrior, strong of flesh and steel, it's the efficient and clever quartermaster keeping an army in bullets, food, and pay. The Slaaneshi cultist is no longer the depraved lord with a dungeon full of victims, it's the penniless rake who seduces wayward daughters for their inheritance. Nurgle is no longer found in the leper colonies, but in the opium dens and sanitariums. The voice of Tzeentch no longer whispers to the mage in his studies, but shouts from the printing press of the jingoist.

>I think an Important element would be how the rebellion gave way to Chaos (maybe literally, Ill get to that later) where the nobility suffered but ended with Napoleon becoming an Emperor who brought about new styles of oppression to his people and ascended new nobility to replace the old. There was a revolution, but like most it gave minor concessions under the guise of major change.

I was planning on basing the reign of Eugenie on the Second French Empire except more competent. As for the character herself I'm going to go at it from the "Older sibling(s) who were expected to succeed to the throne died and now you have to take the job despite not being groomed for it at all" angle.

Luitpold IV would be Karl Franz meets Wilhelm II, except with the latter's aggressive foreign policy kicked up a notch.

You could have a split between the older VCs and the more modern ones, with the newer VCs being far more attached to home and country. So while Vlad Nosferatu is all about ruling over a populace of frightened peasants from a crumbling castle, Fritz von Blutwurst, Eternal Count of Lower Doomlandia, is leading a zombie forlorn hope for Sigmar, the Empire, and Emperor Karl.

Well Vampires generally need something to fixate on so they don't go insane. Maybe super patriotic Murican Vampires from Lustrian colonies?

They transform into eagles instead of bats and fight for Freedom, both political and from death

I think it best to not have a direct America analogue in this case. A confederation of independent territories sitting uneasy amid colonies and protectorates gives more options. Plus you could bring a bunch of conspiracy shit into play between the VCs, Chaos, the Dark Elves, Lizardmen, and Skaven.

>ILikeIt.thor
Though on Khorne's characterization I'd probably say he's the brave soldier who charges into hopeless odds to seek a heroic and tragic death to fit the romanticism angle. For Nurgle, I feel like things like inoculation and sanitation would play into his hands, the great plagues are less devastating but because those who survived and gain immunity (especially asymptomatic carriers) are marked by nurgle in their own way. Sanitation, even washing your hands, is a sort of sacrifice of filth to Nurgle.

The purpose is that populations that deal with disease, get new ones via trade, and all the other things that made IRL Europe a disease-hole make them excellent carriers. Just like how the Spaniards spread disease to the New World that killed millions, what seems to be mercy for some can actually lead to death for countless more. Nurgle is the god of disease, and he hedged his bets by also being the god of immunity.

>Maybe super patriotic Murican Vampires from Lustrian colonies?
I was actually waiting to float the idea that with the above ideas, America is a lost Imperial Colony overcome by Chaos. Though with their founding political elite taking on demi-god status and definitely more Jefferson "live free on your farm and slaves you own" and less "lets make a national bank" Madison. They're far from becoming a world power, but they're dangerously competent enough that others want to learn by their example. The states would hate eachother and would lack a federal government, perfect for Chaos IMO.

Vampire Counts I see following a Van Hellsing type alliance of Vampires with mad scientists to create the next generation of undead. Frankenstein abominations that take rifle fire yet are smart enough to hate their makers, and undead creatures fused with mechanical components. Skeletons/zombies are now rather excellent line infantry, marching and loading slowly but never retreating and taking many more shots than the living.

You know you want Freedom! Vamps

And it works perfectly, a burgeoning industrial power built on the backs of (undead) slaves and downtrodden proles with a great plutocracy of corrupt decadent rulers who could care less about those who were sacrificed for their fortunes.

Come on. The industrialists are bleeding the poor dry. This shit writes itself. And the vamp colony in Lustria is the most successful one.

Why not all the above. If we assume that there's never any fucking crossover between the factions we're not really inventing as much as re texturing WFB.

Vampire planters are common enough that the trope isn't particularly too new to fail or too worn out; and Chaos as freedom would add some more flavor so its not a carbon copy of the old world VCs.

My issue isn't with the Freedom Vamps, its with a direct America analogue. Look up the actual functioning of America under the Articles of Confederation or how the CSA worked out as a government. A dysfunctional mess of competing interests and inefficiency. And the colonies and protectorates are supposed to represent Mexico, the Caribbean, and Canada to some extent.

I'd think that more Slaaneshi that Khorne, but really you'd have a ton of overlap. Your peerless warrior is the spoiled son of nobility with a military academy education, a drinking habit, extensive gambling debts, a wife, a mistress, another mistress, and a custom uniform that requires two aide-de-camps to help him get dressed. He's also buggering one of his aide-de-camps.

>CSA worked out as a government.
The Planter as the new nobility element I think would play an important role regardless, as would the division of the states.

>More Chaos stuff
Agreed, in general I think newer Khorne would be the type who could calmly command artillery batteries and get just as much satisfaction watching shells tear through lines of infantry.

I guess the question is how Chaos would manifest in say, a table top scenario. I see them being the peasants who guillotine the nobility and the Clerics, while agents of a Robespierre-like character endlessly purge.

Like Chaos in the old world, it'd be less based on hard boarders as much as growing internal threat. There'd be Cities in active rebellion I'd imagine to keep the war going as much as we needed to. Like if Paris stayed a commune for years and years and came out whenever someone wanted to adopt their ideology.

Yeah but if we are doing 19th rather than 18th century we can skip the bullshit with the squabbling over currency and the government being unable to pay for shit and go straight to the gilded age