MTG LEGACY GENERAL

Chalice decks are great, fuck blue decks

Can anyone tell me more about the lore from Legends? What is Karakas? What is Hammerheim? Who is Axelrod Gunnarson

Most of the characters are just the developers old DnD characters they used to play.

I've been trying 4x lotus petal instead of 4x LED in dredge and I'm not sure which one is better. I feel like both are about as fast, but lotus petal version has harder time with 1st turn hands, but is a lot more consistent on second turn.

Any thoughts on this?

I like the Petal sideboard package a lot. LED is what fuels your actual broken draws though.

As Belcher I usually laugh off Chalice for 1, either a Thorn/Trini or Chalice on 0 is much better (shuts down Petals and LEDs vs just rite of flames and tinder walls, petals are usually the starters which are harder to come by), the former's better of the two since it's really hard to get going when most of your rituals don't net mana anymore, to push through you need something like Guides into 2 Seething Songs and ETW or several turns of dropping Chrome Moxen with a land in play so you cast Belcher or so.

Chalice 0 shuts off chrome mox, I believe 20% of Belcher is 0 vs 12.5% 1. I think the correct Chalice order is definitely 0-2-1 vs Belcher

You play both. Land+petal+LED -> faithless looting into breakthrough crack LED looting again is usually lights out vs anyone g1. Some people mainboard petals with a DR target (Griselbrand/Iona/FKZ) in combo metas, but petal also helps vs Daze.

If we live in christmasland, sure. But as I was saying, it feels like running LED only to get the best out of faithless looting seems a bit inconsistent compared to land + petal.

I also have issue with sideboarding. I never know what to sideboard out. It's easy to find cards to put in, but the packet is so tight, that usually there isn't anything I want to side out. Is there any tutorials on this?

LEDs are not just for Looting, it's your best discard outlet and works fine with any loot spell when you have dredgers in hand, especially g1 when you're not dodging cages and RIPs. If you run Street Wraiths you can do neat tricks like Cycle crack LED get stinkweed/thug back into your hand and cast it. Petals are just extra speed for turns 1-2, they're not mutually exclusive with LED in any sense. There are some sideboard guides on mtgsource dredge thread, rule of thumb if you bring in anti-hate like decay you shave a bit of everything (1 thug, 1 ichorid, 1 narco, 1 LED and/or breakthrough), vs combo you side out 2-3 Ichorids for Petals if they're in your side along with your DR+bullet since they're too slow vs SNT/Reanimator/TES/Belcher etc.

LED + Breakthrough or Looting + LED isn't Christmasland, it's a pretty common opener and how you get t1's.

Sideboarding is tough, if your build is grindy you can trim on the DR package, 1 or 2 thugs, or 1 ichorid. Realistically, if they RIP you, you won't recover. Leyline or Cage are more beatable.

I did some research and they seemed to do -4 LEDs against control / FoW type decks and -4 ichorids against control decks. Have to keep that in mind.

Ok, last question. Is it just personal preference on using ancient grudge or nature's claim? I currently have both + abrupt decay in sideboard (which is a mess at the moment) and I feel like I should be running either one or another.

Oh, I'm not saying that's a christmas land, I'm saying land + petal + LED + cycles necessary + dredgers is a christmas land. It's like you need to get straight 6 in poker with 7 cards. And I agree, on literal RiP.

Grudge is anti chalice/cage, claim is anti leyline/cage. They do have different applications, and you likely don't need to take all of them in at once

Reminder the true way to beat RiP is packing decays and other enchant removal, and OTK them.

>inb4 what if they can apply pressure
then you lose, but you'd lose anyway because rip is near bmoon tier broken.

I'd run 3-4 decays (sometimes hard to cast but should be doable with 13-15 lands and 3 Petals) for everything that's not Leyline and 3-4 Chain of Vapor for Leyline, the latter mostly sees play from Aggro Loam and Eldrazi, no one hardcasts it ever so chain is just better claim there. 1 Grudge can do work vs Eldrazi and Painter since you can flash it for 1, hardcasting it from your hand to get cage and eating a FoW is not the reason to run it. Claim is just worse Decay since it slows your Ichorid beatdown plan and usually just gets countered or Chalice'd. Joseph Moreno ran/maybe still runs 1 Memory's Journey vs Surgical Extraction (usually the only grave hate combo piles run, especially omnishow with its wishboard) and it can also mess up opposing Reanimator/Dredge/ANT Past in Flames and so on.

Hmm, I suppose that makes sense. Haven't seen leylines locally, so I never saw any need for it. Thanks for everyone for the advice. I will still keep trying Lotus petal version, maybe I have to revert back to LED.

Modernfag here, how is Tezzerator in legacy? I want to get into a modern deck that can transition into legacy easily, that isn't burn or stompy.

It sees little play, but it is a fine deck. Very adaptable to meta changes, but you will need a good read on your meta and know how to beat those decks to do well.

tezz isn't really a modern deck tho. I'd recommend infect for easy modern to legacy transition.

It's really fun, has a good plan vs a lot of decks with Transmute for silver bullets and can win a lot of matchups just off a chalice on 1. here's my list tappedout.net/mtg-decks/legacy-tezzerator-4/

I've noticed some Grxis Tezz lists splashing red for Dack, could Daretti and a one-of Wurmcoil/Sundering Titan/Mindslaver work instead? With all the sol lands and artifact ramp it doesn't seem too far-fetched to me, but I'm still new to the format so I'd like opinions before I test it out.

Burn and Dragon Stompy are my favorite decks.
Red Mage for life.

>pay to win general
But why

Join us in our glorious fight against the jewish menace user!
Their lands cannot hurt us!

>Playing badeldrazi
but why

One reason to play dstompy instead of eldrazi. Go ahead, you can't.

>chalice

i bet you have fun with stasis too

blood moon/magus of the moon

>Their lands cannot hurt us

I wish I could justify getting into Legacy. It's a super fun format, but everyone in my area is broke as fuck so it'd be a waste of money to get into it.

>It's a super fun format
what part of throwing money into each-other's face is 'fun'?

Probably the part where there's literally dozens of viable decks?

Playing with classic magic cards?

just play pauper.

it's basically legacy-lite.

I can't play Miracles or Stoneblade or Shardless BUG in Pauper tho

>dozens of viable decks
'viable' doesn't mean you won't be defeated by retarded strategies from expensive and anti-fun cards.

>complain about budget
>wants to play the expensive lists

I did not complain about budget. I said I'd love to play legacy, but the OTHER PLAYERS in my group are broke as fuck, so they'd be building budget shit that I'd obliterate with Miracles or BUG, which are the decks I want to play, and that would be fun for nobody.

Are you just baiting for (You)s? Why are you even in this thread if you're just going to complain about the format?
Also, MTG in general has gotten ridiculously expensive, this isn't an issue exclusive to Legacy.

Honestly I feel like Modern is worse. For the cost of some of the high-end Modern decks you could buy most of a Legacy deck, and at least your Legacy deck isn't gonna get banned 6 months later.

In any other format you have a chance of winning with cheap cards, because there is not 'optimal way' of winning. Legacy is just two guys trying to use as much expensive strategies as they can to defeat his opponent by turn 1-5.

Please list at least 3 remotely viable "cheap card" decks for Standard and Modern.

I'm convinced you are a troll. I'm not giving you my (You)s.

you can play pau-blade and bug trinket, tho. they're p close actually. (un)fortunately no miracles analogue.

mass land destruction is cheap. Or you can just be a bigger douchebag and destroy/remove everything with a black/white deck. It's far from expensive and can work. Expensive decks normally try variety. A cheap one with annoyances can win. If you don't want to be too much of an asshole, there are some other alternative strategies to win like Helix pinnacle. Shitting mana every turn is not particularly hard, and if your opponent takes too long/is controlled long enough, you win.

Standard is more problematic to say because it always changes, but in tournaments you can see some variety.

So, instead of providing me with actual, viable, results-obtaining decklists, you just listed THEORETICAL budget decks that could POSSIBLY win occasionally.

Nobody's saying expensive shit is unbeatable, and obviously even the best deck in the universe can get manascrewed and lose to a turn 1 Rampaging Goblin, because variance is baked into the game by design. But cards aren't good because they're expensive, they're expensive because they're good. They're highly demanded. A 10 dollar budget version of a 500 dollar deck is just not going to have the same winrate because it's using objectively worse cards.

damn bro, those decks are sweet. I'm sure I'll top 8 every event now.

I have a pauper deck, because pauper is the only format you can play Affinity in.

>if your opponent takes too long/is controlled long enough, you win.
you can say that about any deck.

>actual, viable, results-obtaining decklists
you really want me to waste my time making a decklist just to prove you wrong? Have you never played against mass land destruction? or against an annoying kid destroying all your stuff? how new are you?

Anyway, the issue with expensive decks in legacy is that you only oppose a threat with an equally expensive deck. Any other strategy have no place in it. Of course i'm not talking about a small possibility of "oh, he got no lands in 5 turns"; a cheap deck in any other format have a GOOD chance of winning if made properly annoying while in legacy he will lose by turn 1-2 by retardedly expensive cards.

tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jund-just-wants-to-have-fun/

for kitchen tables. any way i could make it more fun?

Yes, it would be a waste of your time, because you'd only prove yourself wrong.

>Any other strategy have no place in it.
May I offer you some national socialism?

>"expensive"
>"expensive"
>"expensive"
being NEET must suck, huh

also
>he's never heard of metakillers

Go back to standard or modern. Some people like to play with power, and I've seen more homebrew Legacy decks do well at tournaments than homebrews in any other competitive format. I even won a small tourney playing D-Rit and other accelerants into heavy discard, fat demons, and Obliterator against Maverick and DnT. It was flukey but it worked.

> I've seen more homebrew Legacy decks do well at tournaments than homebrews in any other competitive format
Let me guess: with even more expensive cards.

pic related.

So you're saying you can't put together a good MLD decklist?

i'm saying demmanding an entire decklist because you won't accept any other way to prove a point is nonsense.

Honestly, you never played against someone just trying to fuck with the game and destroying everything?

Holy shit

I don't think my mono-black removal and discard deck was anywhere near as expensive as the decks I played. I went 3-1, lost to Dredge. The most expensive cards in my list were Obliterators and Cabal Therapies. It was mainly meant to take down the local meta, and it did pretty well at that.

T1: Swamp, Dark Ritual -> Hypnotic Specter. T2: Swamp, Cabal Therapy naming Swords to Plowshares or whatever removal ; Attack with Specter ; Culling the Weak on their turn into Phyrexian Obliterator.

Rest of the game was spent dropping Dismembers and Cabal Therapies.

If you're gonna bitch about "nurr expensive nurr" and insist that a budget list can put up similar results, then yes I expect you to nut up or shut up. Either give me a list that gets results, or quit claiming you've got a bridge to sell.

I have played against that player, and I've been that player. Those decks are annoying, but they don't win.

When you're claiming "Legacy sucks because you can build good budget decks in other formats", and someone challenges you to prove that claim, your options are "nut up" or "shut up". I can CLAIM that Ava Devine is sucking my cock right now, but unless I provide proof everyone will rightfully mock and disbelieve me.

Legacy burn is relatively cheap and can do things.

Fish, too. I mean, they're not top decks, but they're not meme decks either.

>but they don't win
c'mon, don't lie.

he wants me to prove Solely by showing a decklist, something that by the way doesn't accomplishes nothing to prove about it's effectiveness. You can demmand proof, but you cannot demmand a specific kind of proof. I presented the annoying types of decks that we all know of; we all have played against (if you played magic long enough) and know how they are. There are varieties, but all of them work well to have some good fighting chance.

> but you cannot demmand a specific kind of proof.
Yes I fucking can. I did not say "show me a deck that can BEAT Miracles", because a deck of 56 Mountains and 4 Raging Goblins can theoretically win through variance alone.

I said "show me a budget deck which can consistently do well against a meta of non-budget decks in Standard and Modern", which was YOUR claim. YOU claimed that Legacy is the only format where 'cheaper' decks can't do well. So I demanded that you put your metaphorical money where your very literal mouth is.

>4x Wasteland
>4x Cavern of Souls
>4x Aether Vial
>4x Force of Will
Real budget deck there pal

>c'mon, don't lie.
who's lying? If those annoying decks won more than they lost, they'd be getting consistent results. Winning one out of 20 games against a real deck does not make you some genius deckbuilder, it means you got lucky. The true mark of a good deck is CONSISTENT results.

This, dank meme-tier decks can still win if people aren't ready.

Dredge is the maximum exponent of this bullshit (which is jokingly called a nazi deck because it comes out of nowhere, wins or splats like a bitch, also it's cheap and takes down very expensive decks).

It also automatically loses game 2 and 3 if they have any anti-Dredge sideboard, which makes it a really big meta call.

You presented nothing, though. And the basic ideas you spoke of are not winning decks.

And the big problem: even if they WERE winning decks, they'd be improved with good cards. I can build a "budget" version of a good deck and put up okay results, but the deck would be objectively, unarguably better with more expensive, better versions of the budget choices.

It's a deck designed to shit on specific metas.

IE metas were people don't pack much dredge hate.

The key word is relatively. I mean, compare $600 to $3000 -- in the same way you can say $200 is a budget Modern deck.

If you want to play on a shoestring budget, either don't compete in tournaments (you don't sound like a tournament player to begin with; just proxy up for your casual play), or play a cheaper format. Like, say, Pauper.

Dude, I'm the one saying "waaaah it's too expensive" is stupid, and demanding that the guy decrying expensive decks as just dick-waving actually put up a list.

I fully 100% agree that if you're playing on a shoestring budget, you either need to accept that it'll only get you so far against people not affected by that handicap, or stick to the kitchen table.

You could, but you want to run more mana and more CIP abilities. I've seen him played alongside Ichor Wellspring for massive value

>not taking a force of will to the face
That says something about your local group.

People do realize roguedecks do better in legacy than in any other format? The reason for this is that meta is usually so diverse that there will be always shit decks which can beat some of tier decks as one deck cannot be good against everything. 15 card sideboard is way too small to cover everything.

>the issue with expensive decks in legacy is that you only oppose a threat with an equally expensive deck. Any other strategy have no place in it

Before everyone jumped on the Eldrazi train and spiked the prices Eldrazi Stompy was around $900 and utterly murdered most other decks. It still does, if you go for a slightly more nuanced build, but for a while you could utterly wipe a Legacy tournament with a deck cheaper than almost all of the Modern tier 1 and 2 decks.

>200
>budget memedern
Yes, and budget memedern will make you lose harder than a 600 euros legacy deck.

Does not make up for the fact mtg is expensive as fuck

1. There is no way to show you how 'well' a specific deck can be, and how much is enough for you. As i said, this kind of proof would ebllbe meaningless. Even if i dis build a decklist and showed to you, you could just deny it is good based on subjectivity
2. Everyone played against the type of deck i'm proposing, unless you didn't play magic enough. The real question here is if YOU never played against mass land destruction or other annoying removals. If you did, you would know they can consistently win if the game doesnt end in 1-2 turns like in legacy, or have superior expensive counters.

Ahh. I didn't read the half of your post that wasn't addressed to me, so I'd assumed you were him, as you'd probably divined.

My bad.

>If you did, you would know they can consistently win if the game doesnt end in 1-2 turns like in legacy
MLD is utter dogshit.
Also
>games end in 1-2 turns
Confirmed memedernette

Complaining about cost in a thread about any sort of hobby is basically trolling.

1 every 20 games is an exageration. Lets say 1 every 5 and we get close. They do have a chance if build properly, and can even win completely all the games if you're not prepared. But when you put, like, x4 force of will in your deck you're kind if already prepared for this shit.

I did not say that budget decks will compete on the same ground as fully fleshed out decks; I am also not the guy claiming that budget MLD meme decks have hopes of topping events.

MTG is indeed expensive as fuck. Never said otherwise.

MLD decks are shit, will always be.

But a budget legacy deck is better than a budget modern deck, by far.

Hell, you can always play ghetto 12 post.

>the Basic ideas you spoke of are not winning decks
Potentially, yes. They can win consistently. I'm not saying 100% of the time here. But i assume that if you ever played against something like that outside of legacy, you know you shouldnt underestimate it. There are few responses to a guy destroying your lands that you would normally prepare for.

Have you even played legacy, wtf. Games can end quickly in legacy, true, but I'm quite sure the average in game length in legacy is longer than in modern.

I play modern and standard. You are wrong.

Anyone that has played against MLD knows the deck is nothing more than an annoyance.
You are the one that hasn't played enough Magic.

If your deck in legacy can't end the game in turn 1-2 (as in: securing victory), you're doing it wrong.