Can someone explain to me how Hearthstone is criticised for being the RNG heavy game when it just gives you mana while...

Can someone explain to me how Hearthstone is criticised for being the RNG heavy game when it just gives you mana while magic makes you load half your deck with cards that don't do anything just so you can have a reasonable chance to be able to play the actual cards? I mean I'd much rather have "deal between X and Y damage to a random enemy minion" than "draw nothing but land for your next 4 turns" or "never go above 2 mana".

drawing cards is an accepted source of RNG in card games while "hurr this dice roll is the difference between killing your enemys most important creature and hitting yourself in the face for 3" is not unless it's very sparse with it which hearthstone is not

I'd much rather have RNG I can plan around effectively than the possibility of being literally incapable of playing any of my cards the entire game

>1 OP and 2 replies
>2 posters
Which one of these posts is yours, faggot OP?

Hearthstone as several layers of RNG where as Magic only has it within the concept of a shuffled deck. (the two joke expansions with dice mechanics notwithstanding)

It's more than the concept of a shuffeled deck though, it's literally the ability to play cards. Imagine you were playing an RPG, you made your character and showed up to the first session. Then the GM made you roll a d20 and if you didn't get above a 10 you weren't allowed to play. Hearthstone may have more random elements but it can get away with those because the incredibly important core mechanic of "spend mana to play cards" is not left to RNG.

Then it sounds like you need more mana sources in your (Magic) deck. Have you tried dual lands? Fetch lands? Elves, Birds of Paradise, Gemhide Sliver?

That doesn't really address user's problem of potential mana starvation. The point is you can just get so unlucky that mana doesn't materialize in time for you to act before the game is decided.

You can only add so many fetch mechanisms before the deck has too many of them and they still don't guarantee you won't become mana-starved.

There's nothing wrong with how I build my decks. I put a reasonable amount of land, fixers and mana dorks for whatever I'm playing. My point is that having to draw into mana is a fundamentally shit mechanic.

Understood. Perhaps a more stable deck archetype is called for, then.

I have a Weenie deck with only, like fifteen Plains in it. But every card only costs W to play, so, as long as I get a single land, I'm set.

Granted, this IS kitchen table casual; I don't know a lot about Standard and Modern.

>My point is that having to draw into mana is a fundamentally shit mechanic.
I slightly disagree. I understand where you're coming from, and I think it's a /mostly/ shit mechanic, but at the risk of being an asshole, would it have really survived this long if it was total shit?

ALL that being said, I've not played Hearthstone, so maybe they really do have a better way to do things, I dunno. Several years ago I tried the WoW card game, and they used ANY card as a Resource.

I've thought about adapting that to Magic, where you'd play any card into your Resource Zone, and each card there can tap to make one mana of any of its colors. Basically turning every card in your deck into an optional Land.

I think the fact that Yog decks are top tier should tip you off to why people say HS is RNG based.

People vastly overstate the amount of games where flood/screw even occur. The numbers have been crunched time and time again and its always in the 8 and 4 percent respectively.

The amount of people keeping sketchy 1 or 6 land hands are way higher.

The thing with Yogg decks is he is very consistent. When he casts 20 or more spells, results are pretty similar. There are better examples of bad rng, like Flame Juggler deciding game on turn 2.

Oh don't get me wrong, I think magic is a good game, it's just good in spite of a crappy core mechanic.

RNG isn't even HS biggest problem
But yeah, it has a lot of it. I think you severely underestimate how much of a difference "deal 1 to the face" can have compared to "deal 1 to that 1-health minion". And it happenes all the time.

People have done the numbers on Hearthstone and you will generally have a very similar if not lower amount of RNG in the average legend game than you would in Standard match about a year ago

That's a cool source you posted for your made up story user :^)

While he probably made it up, it's also pretty accurate.You're not running huge RNG swing cards in a high level deck. Even Yogg in't that RNG because with enough spells he'll clear the board, deal some damage, draw a card or two and maybe put down some secrets.

Yog is actually generally pretty easy to predict due to the number of spells that are non-targeted. You can generally guess where he'll end up (dead along with most of the board)

He's a critical mass of random and ends up mostly just a pretty predictable probability)

You can't plan 100% in hs, doomsayers will be piloting shredders, yoggs will be dropped all while the jugglers and bombers laugh at your puny attempts to appease the RNGesus.

And this is why systems where you don't have to draw your resource generation are much better.

>You can't plan 100% in hs
But you can in Magic, where you have to rely on RNGesus for the ability to even play any cards?

The probability of tournament-level decks being mana-screwed is less than 1%.

Mind you, Red in MTG has a lot of random too. It's kinda it's thing. Generally these days in the form of 'Discard then draw' and 'Exile a card, until end of turn you can play it'.

Not to the level of Hearthstone but it's there.

lol nope scientists agree, you have to flip a coin to see if you're even allowed to get out your deck at a magic event

Roughly a third of every deck is lands.
You start with seven cards in your hand.

Are you really saying 'lol coinflip'? 50/50 doesn't even come close to defining it and land-screw/land-flood is far more complicated than 'lol you lose right at the start.'

He's being facetious user.

>flame juggler
>tuskar totemist
>yogg
>arcane missile
>knife thrower
>sylvanas
>ragnaros
>flamewalker
>animal companion

My Yog deck, more often than not, simply mills me.

You just looked up cards with random in the card text didn't you?
>flame juggler
fair

>tuskar
played for another body withtotem synergy, some totems are better than others but you never play to get a specific totem

>yogg
look at the post you're replying to

>arcane missile
played as a 1 mana spell to trigger flamewaker

>knife juggler
played in decks where you play enough minions to not really care where the damage goes

>sylvanas
played to make your opponenet bend over backwards to play around it

>rag
Eh, fair I guess, but he's a late game card so it'd be rare for you to play it and it do nothing unless you'd already lost

>flamewaker
same as knife juggler, spam spells, give no fucks

>animal companion
again, kinda fair, but when all 3 options are better than any minion you could play for the same cost the RNG element isn't that much of a problem.

Hi there, Blizzshills. You popped out right before new set release as usual.

What was Dr. Boom, back when standard wasn't a thing?

It was the must-have card that was ridiculously dependent on RNG.

Dr Boom wasn't really about being great on the RNG. It was because he was 9/9 worth of body for 7. The extra random damage was gravy.

Tuskar totemic can win a game, drop it turn 2 with coin and if it gives you the 3/4 is almost always GG

Knife juggler is really really random, it can clear your opponent board or ram the damage face forcing you to trade

sylvanas is powerful, but random. the fact that is powerful does not negate that sometime you'll grab a freaking searing totem or silver hand recruit over a 7/7

Yoog most of the times either clears the board or kills you via fatigue.

You seem to have difficulties understanding the meaning of random. Random is not equal to weak, random means "I cannot accurately predict wtf is it going to do".
Sylvanas is always good, it just changes how good it is. All the cards I mentioned are good (and no, I did not look them up, I happen to play them)

not really, rng could make Dr7 go from "overpowered" to "Just broken", but its not like a 7/7 with 2 1/1's that deal atleast 1 damage each to an enemy for 7 is in any way underwhelming

>ITT: people who are either bad at deck construction or bad at shuffling

I play the L5R CCG (rest in pieces) and let me tell you, y'all motherfuckers need to get fucking good

Sylvanas isn't random in the sense that her board presence provokes very predictable reactions.

Yes, ultimately her ability is randomized, but your opponent's reactions to is almost always not.

>Play renolock
>hand after mulligan has only 6+ drops

B-but i get mana every turn :^)

>playing renolock
you asked for this user

but more importantly the same can happen in magic with the addition of not getting mana every turn

>clears the board or kills you via fatigue
why not both? That's literally why they made DOOM!

If you mulligan and your hand is entirely 6+ drops then either your deck/curve is bad or you hit that ~1% chance of drawing every expensive card in your deck.

I obviously don't mean the exact same. I'm talking about the equivalent spot on the mana curve which would be, I dunno, 4 drops?

>people talking about mana screw or mana flood like it happens every other game

I know right? And they think drawing lands is worse rng than shredder,juggler,toad,yogg and many other examples,it's like they don't even play these games.

>Can someone explain
MTG buttmad
Can't wait until chinaman fakies are so good they crash MTG into the ground

The biggest issue with netdeckstone is simply there's not enough cards. When you play against someone 75% of the time it's the same deck that's popular for that class, 20% of the time it's another deck that's popular. The game need more variety.

>Thee biggest issue with netdeckstone is simply there's not enough cards
Yeah, and Blizzard developers are willing to help by releasing tons of garbage filler cards. There are a lot of cards in Hearthstone and most of them are useless crap. Your issue will never be resolved.

People played Dr. Boom because he has more stats per mana than cards 2 mana cost above him and could still operate after getting BGH'd.

>There are a lot of cards in Hearthstone and most of them are useless crap.

Not that Magic doesn't also have that problem with it's commons.

The last ten or so games, wasn't counting exactly, I have had no mana floods and one mana screw.

I won the mana screw anyway because I was playing a red aggro which can get by on two lands with Goblin Glory Seeker into Twin Bolt and continued cheap beatdown/burn from there.

You're acting like MTG doesn't do the exact same thing. The only reason half of the cards are shit is because they never release enough in a set to truly make any synergy and they don't embrace tribes enough.

I'm not MtG fanboy. HS devs intentionally dillute card pool with garbage even though it never reached saturation point. You will never see more diversity in HS than you have right now. Maybe a new warrior archetype or two.

Because half the fucking cards have some random effect in it, that's just it.
I don't get why people talk like mana screw happens every game. It doesn't. If it does happen to you every game you need to get better at deck building.
In fact I think the land system adds a layer of customization to deck building, you getting to choose your curve.

It happens with any pre-constructed decks I have, so presumably, that's the standard.

honestly the real problem with hearthstone is that it's mechanics are shit

the base game is just so much worse than magic. the old wow tcg was much more enjoyable.

I do like Hearthstone's mana system, but the dice-roll cards kill it for me. At least mana can be mitigated by loading your deck properly.

Honestly if Hearthstone didn't have RNG cards and everything else stayed the same, I probably wouldn't have quit so early.

Magic never has that problem because you can just manaweave your decks beforehand

Last I checked MTG doesn't have "Oh look this guy pulled amazing cards out of his ass" generating cards.

Well, they couldn't really. The sort of randomization that Hearthstone does is simply not possible without a computer running the back end.

except a lot of times it goes to random
Not every deck can trade the entire board or it , so a lot of times your opponent will just ignore it.
and then its completely random

It still swings for five. That's enough to trade with most decent enemy minions.

Her ability is basically just a bonus that sometimes does amazing things.

No one is saying sylvanus is bad, obviously she isn't.

What I am saying is,
claims you can play your opponents reaction on it, but the fact is your opponent will generally choose to ignore sylvanus when they don't have just 2 minions on board and you have to rely on the randomness.

Sure, then your opponent has to hope you don't have the kind of board clear to remove all those possible targets.

My main issue with hearthstone is the rarity distribution in sets. I know that seems stupid, but the sheer percentage of legends that make up a given set really make the "rare" slot feel more like an uncommon.

The other problem I have is getting a mana every turn makes making a proper curve less important.

And another thing I have is that Arena is the worst limited environment of all time. It is like sealed but worse. And with each creature doubling as removal, it creates these incredibly boring games where trading up is all that matters.

My problem is just how absurdly powerful commons and low cost minions can be in the game. I understand new players need things to keep vets from just wrecking their shit but some of the most powerful cards in the entire game are 2-4 drop commons and rares like juggler and flamewaker. If they're played early and the opponent doesn't draw their answer it's game right there because they snowball a lead so hard.