How to design a "good" Black/Red faction? So far, all Black/Red factions are assholes

How to design a "good" Black/Red faction? So far, all Black/Red factions are assholes.

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Lorwyn Goblins

>>So far, all Black/Red factions are assholes.
>People who are ruled by their emotions and passions, are fundamentally selfish, and don't care about anyone but themselves and their close friends and family, if that, are usually assholes.
Imagine that.

>Another contrived game-based-morality thread
Well let's do this anyways even though I loathe it:

Red represents freedom, passion, and violence
Black represents greed, selfishness and solitude

So we take the least negative attributes: maybe solitude and passion, and create a character from it.

So my character is a lonely painter, who expresses himself through his art and just wants to be understood by other people but can't ever seem to fit in.

Just noticed actually, before I hit post, that you said faction, not character.

Okay, as for faction, it's the same principle, you have a loose network of people who decide to live away from society (solitude, freedom) and live lives as they see fit according to their own moral codes. This group would be more anti-society than pro-whatever. Defined more by what they aren't than what they are.

Demolition Man pretty much. BR is good-ish only in a setting with oppressive/overbearing nanny states .

This is the truth. While it may be hard to work a good B/R faction in a "normal" setting, put them in an orwellian hellhole and suddenly all those qualities that would make them assholes on any other setting make them heroes and freedom fighters instead. Kaladesh is kind of like that, maybe we'll see one there

I would be amazed if we don't see Koth get a new card in Red/Black, showing the importance of individualism and emotion in the face of cold homogenity and authoritarianism.

Depending on your politics, legitimate anarchism is also a Red/Black (or at the very least just Black) political stance and philosophy.

Hedonism

would be interesting but I don't think Wizards will be very creative in that regard

>set up New Phyrexia as a monowhite or W/U antagonist group
>have the primary character fighting against it and the only redeemable praetor both in Red

It could happen. People always ask for Black good guys and making Koth R/B is a perfect fit.

All of this. A R/B good guy would be the anarchist guy who fights against oppression and subjugation and the like. Imagine V for V for Vendetta.

sounds green to me

They would be more like punks, or rebels, than hermits out in the forest.

They are not interested in being away from society, but rather, bringing down THIS society because they detached or wronged by it.

>All of this. A R/B good guy would be the anarchist guy who fights against oppression and subjugation and the like

Black is the color of self-reliance, ambition and drive. It's the color that says you can do anything if you really believe you can.

Couple that with Red's passion and free will, the ability to see beyond established rules and patterns, and B/R is the color of entrepreneurs, revolutionaries, and innovators.

Olympians, literally.
Citius, Altius, Fortius is the mindset of someone who lives for self improvement.

Make the villains be totalitarian blue/white mind wiping hitlerstalins and relatively speaking the red/black rebels are the lesser of two evils.

hitlerstalins would be white/green

>It's the color that says you can do anything if you really believe you can.
Unless it involves destroying an enchantment or a big hunk of metal.

Why not bant?

You act on impulse a lot, and largely towards your own interests. You care about those immediate important to you, and that's it. Actually just fuck everyone else. Too bad you're really good at making friends, so you keep having people that actually matter, so you help them too. Getting stronger is important too, and you have a lot of passion for it.

You're basically some shades of the more negative aspects of shonen protags, like Japanese Goku, or Luffy. You're still affable, and will look out for those important to you, you just happen to meet more people important to you wherever you go.

Probably key to note that you really don't give a shit about people at large, sincerely at that, you just be worried bout the few of yours in random places. You can also draw on things like a love of fighting, and generally putting that before other things. Ties well into "getting stronger" since it's kinda circular then and provides character goals. A faction of these is basically just the A-team that usually tags along.

Isn't it common to for an Anarchist to think the community is better off without specifically govmint laws and shit? At least, that's what the ones I talked to said.

Only bringing it up because they made it sound like Gx or monoG.

Rakdos may attract psychopaths, but even disregarding their many noncombatants the organization is petty well intentioned.

You can't. The closest you can come is an Eldritch Moon or Kamigawa situation where Notrakdos is fighting something worse than itself alongside actual good guys.

Feral =/= good

You basically just described asperger's and since all blue characters are apparently autistic these days all we've got here is a reclusive wizard faction.

An outright anarchist is red, if he's fighting to establish a more just order splash white, if he wants to take over for his own gain then R/B or mono B. Rebels is an established tribe, fyi, and it's primarily white.

Hitlerstalins are not green in the slightest. They're white plus either blue or black depending on how they operate.

>Probably key to note that you really don't give a shit about people at large, sincerely at that, you just be worried bout the few of yours in random places. You can also draw on things like a love of fighting, and generally putting that before other things. Ties well into "getting stronger" since it's kinda circular then and provides character goals. A faction of these is basically just the A-team that usually tags along.

So Ryuko is R/B?

>Angel prostitutes

Goku and Luffy might have some red in them, but not black.

Mono R. Maybe even W/R by the end of the series when she's grown up and bonded with people.

>feral
The fuck are you on about.

>Lorwyn Golbins
>Feral

Sure you aren't thinking of the shadowmoor version?

The Lorwyn Gobiins were a bunch of fast reproducing hedonist who had a good time and a code of conduct involving sharing that everyone broke.

Good stuff.

Boggarts were primitive to the point that they were basically wild animals. They lived in filthy marshes, stole kithkins' pies, and basically just chimped out all the time. Not a whole lot changed about them after the Aurora either.

Yeah, she's absolutely monored. She just wants revenge, and pretty much to be left alone. She fiercely defends her friends and calls out anything thinks is bullshit based on her gut feelings alone. She dislikes authority and anything that tries to restrict her freedom. No ambition, higher philosophy/motivation, or greed.

Mono red through and through.

Ah, kithkin defense force, eh?

>being savage = feral
You couldn't be more wrong.

>They lived in filthy marshes
Well these are black Goblins after all.

>stole kithkins' pies, and basically just chimped out all the time.
So basically just like nearly every other Goblin ever?

Gruul produces livestock.

Holy shit Nath go back to your forest it is not genocide hour.

I listed how they're both arguably R/B, and you've offered no evidence to your point. Before it does start, though, Japanese Goku is not the American Goku you're probably familiar with.

>Ravnica needs two cults to keep letaral god figures from destroying the planet. And one more to entertain dead jews.
And we whine about religion.

Randian philosophy is as close to it as you can get.

Goku and Vegeta both let villains power up and almost got everyone killed because their ego was that big.
Goku is Rgb and Vegeta is RBw.

>Goku and Vegeta both let villains power up and almost got everyone killed because their ego was that big.
That's dumb, not evil.

>black is evil

You're a class act fucking retard.

Black is evil, though. Thre are no black heroes, because it's the color of selfshness.

a band of freedom fighters and rebels that will do anything to overthrow the oppressive government.

>one aspect of black is selfishness
>therefore everything black-headed is selfish and therefore villainous
Lel

Your next line is "I was only pretending to be retarded".

Once you add black to anything they become assholes. For all of Wizards insistence that Black isn't the "evil" color they are quite shit at showing it

Satyrs

It is ALWAYS genocide hour! Suffer not the eyeblight to live!

>White has commie assholes
>Black has selfish assholes
>Black/white planeswalker is actually very sensible, chill and helpful

The entire Nahiri thing is his fault.

Naaaah

Luffy is arguably the closer to be RB, he doesn't care about anyone outside of his friend/close relative and his motive are most of the time selfish,when he recruited his crew he helped them because that was the only way to make them join him. In Alabasta he didn't want to warn the rebel army about Baroque Works plan because he wanted to kick Crocodile ass.He helped some of the worst criminals in the world to get out of jail because he wanted to save his brother. For the same goal he destroyed most of the government infrastructure. In fact he doesn't actively help people, he just kick the BBEG after the latter did something to him or his friend.
Luffy is mono R instead of RB because he is too stupid to understand half the implication and repercussion of what he does.

maybe if nahiri was less of a turbo bitch he wouldn't have told her to fuck off

>sensible, chill, fucking helpful
>SORIN

Pick one and only one.

His poor interpersonal skills and total lack of tolerance for anything against him therein is most of the cause of Eldrazi related problems, with his mistakes being the remainder.

Nahiri's not any better, but that's HIS FUCKING FAULT TOO.

The entire Nahiri thing is Nahiri's fault AND intent

The Nahiri thing is partially Sorin's fault, but he had no ill intent, quite the contrary

>Umewaza
>Sharkan
>Teysa
>Crovax (pre curse)

Are those new 'walkers, user?

I mean I wouldn't really consider Sorin "evil," even when he was first introduced as monoblack. Though you could argue that they made him less bad by adding white

I would argue that Vegeta's third color is more likely blue and that Goku is definitely white more than black

Are you trying to move the goalposts, user?

Stop using American Goku.

Wouldn't passionate mercs be black red....
Like say, Deadpool.
So the Mercs for Money then?

Ambition and end-result morality combined with passion and create+destroy mentality.

Basically any "freedom fighter" type that frees animals from labs or blows up abortion clinics would be a "good" black/red character. Of course, you'd have to agree with them for them to be considered good.

>Mr. "The world doesn't have enough death and carnage in it" Vol isn't an asshole

>Deadpool
Batshit insane and does things because he feels like it. How is it not monored?

Not even him, but I think he's mostly just talking about the fact that Wizkids hasn't put out shit for not-terrible black character since the old days. When you're bringing up Crovax and Umezawa, you've digging back into the past pretty hard. And back then, WizKids were actually capable of making a fun game.

Black is the color of greed and selfishness

Are you insulting wizards of the coast by calling them WizKids? Or did you confuse them?

Think of a god of destruction and death like Shiva .. Now apply this concept on a faction or religion.

Destruction and death are key concepts of the nature, they bring change and keep the cycle of life working. Without the destruction of the stars, life would not exist.

It could be a faction of powerfull and badass mages that have the power to govern destruction itself and guide it to make the humanity change the right way. Sometimes you need some world war to have decades and centurys of peace where nations could talk and sociolise.

Or something more simple... a faction on Hell Hunters... Chaotics soldiers from the realm od the dad that hunt Liches and creatures that cheat dead with the fire of vengance of any bullshit power like that. This sounds "edge" of course but well... I dont know.. make them hedonist... they are the only citzens of hell that can live outside it.... they should surely enjoy... I dont know, this last idea may need some serious rethinks to work.

I dunno, Deadpool's red more or less blots out his black. Dude's too random

>Who is Umezawa
>Who is Teysa

Seriously they were the best characters in their sets.

They can shatter things just fine, user

That's usually blue/red: Izzet, as blue is the colour of knowledge and progress

As everyone's said, R/B is the color of individuality and passion, but it's also the color of self-advancement. Imagine a group of loose, tribal warriors, all attempting to do what they think is best for them and the tribe, with only one leadership position for the tribe - you want it, you challenge the current leader to ritual combat. They all know it isn't the most efficient, but they also know that regular fighting makes them stronger, so they can defeat their enemies and defend the land they've claimed.

You really can't.

>red
>random
You're one of those people who think that Chaotic Neutral means "I ROLL TO RAPE LOL," aren't you? Red isn't random, red just doesn't think things through before doing them. If you ask red, it always has what seemed like a perfectly good reason at the time for doing whatever the hell it just did, even if that reason was "I wanted that spider dead, how was I supposed to know the floor would burn too." Deadpool is completely insane, and his only two reasons for doing anything are "because I want money for shiny things" (which, by itself, is not an entirely illegitimate reason) or "I thought it would be funny and I can't die from it anyway." Deadpool is black, but since he's a fleshed-out character, he's got hints of red and even white (i.e. how he behaves around some children when his non-crazy self comes out).

>Red isn't random, red just doesn't think things through before doing them.
So like Deadpool?

Red is explicitly the color of gambling and leaving things to chance, or in other words "damn the consequences".
No color represents randomness as "spontaneous unpredictable reactions", though. All the colors are fundamentally predictable.

Deadpool is random.
Red is "Oh, doing this would be bad? Huh. FUCK IT IM'A DO IT ANYWAY" which isn't random.

Mardu

That sort of unpredictable number-generator randomness simply does not exist in MTG, except in the form of artifacts or Eldrazi.

Not selfishness, self-interest. Black is the color of pragmatists.

>"Oh, doing this would be bad? Huh. FUCK IT IM'A DO IT ANYWAY"
So...Deadpool

Yes. Which means that Deadpool isn't red. Thanks for proving my point, user.

Except that's not what Deadpool does. If it was, Taskmaster would still be able to analyse him. But he can't. But he's LITERALLY random. Not, "lol so randumb" but actually legit random.

Unless you're trying to argue that he is Eldrazi style colorless, the information is that that does not affect what his color is.
He is still impulsive and emotional, which is red.
Insanity is found in all colors and irrationality in all colors except blue. It does not preclude any of them.

Basically someone that loves someone else so passionately and selfishly that they're willing to go to insane lengths, damning everyone else in the process, for them. I think that's as "good" as you can get for R/B.

Frankly, his character depends on the writer

Which, in an ironic meta kind of way, makes him too random to be nailed down into MtG's color system. Unlike what seems to believe, the color pie isn't infallible. It has some gaps and can't put every character into a neat little box like it wants to.

>Which, in an ironic meta kind of way, makes him too random
Deadpool confirmed for most consistent Marvel character

Black is willing to go to ridiculous lengths to fight for what it considers to belong to it, simply because it belongs it.

For example, Drana.
>magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/memories-blood-2015-09-16
She fights for the vampires she leads, for the child soldiers that she indoctrinates, solely because she feels that they belong to her, that they are her property and no on else has any right to that which belongs to her.

Then there's Liliana's most recent logic.
>magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/innistrads-last-hope-2016-06-29
She's helping Jace and defending Innistrad so that he will owe her a favor, which she'll use in order to solve her problems. In the end, it's still all about her and she's doing it for personal gain but she's okay with doing good if it means getting what's good for her in due time.

The good of red is much more obvious. Red cares about others it feels like others are getting trampled over by something that has no right to. Sure, it might be okay with two people punching each other in the face but when one guy starts shackling the other, collaring him and making a slave out of his foe, that's when red goes berserk and starts fighting.

So at their best, black fights for that which is important to it and red fights for the idea of freedom and independence.

I'll be quite honest, I always considered America's founding fathers to be Mardu colors, with their focus on the order and the liberation of *their* nation, while not bothering to look out for anyone else in the process, unless they gained from it.

Would Jack be WRB?
>Self-absorbed as it gets
>Kills and blackmails whomever he feels like
>Is utterly convinced that he's making the world a better place by getting rid of the "bandits"
>Goes utter apeshit when you kill his daughter whom he imprisoned "for her own good" to siphon her space-wizard powers

Could be shown as mono-black but red-black works too. Maybe even Grixis if you want to focus on his intellectual side.

You could even make him seem white. The only color he certainly isn't is green.

I think America in the 1700s was definitely Mardu. I mean you had nigs, redskins, AND whitey.

Joking aside, I agree with the assessment that the founding fathers were overall Mardu, but I think some like Washington and Ben Franklin had some Blue in them. Ben Franklin seems like he'd be Grixis or Jeskai.

>nahiri apologists
fuck off back to plebbit

>"Don't dismiss this," she said. "I was willing to jeopardize my home by luring the Eldrazi to it. I promised to chain myself to Zendikar to watch over them as their warden. I spent millennia with those monsters. Do you know what that's like?" As she spoke, the ground began to rumble. "All you had to do was come when I needed you."

>"Don't presume to own my actions, young one," Sorin replied, batting Nahiri's hand aside. "I am obligated to nothing. I owe you nothing! When your Planeswalker spark first ignited, it was I who discovered you. I could have ended you there, but I spared you." He rounded on her, and suddenly his face was only inches from hers. In a whisper, he continued, "I took you under my wing, and molded you into what you are. If you find it necessary to pester someone, go find Ugin. I have no patience for it."

Which one of these is an asshole?

The answer is both, dingus.

>WotC hasn't made a not-terrible black character since the old days
>WotC hasn't made a not-terrible character since the old days

>If you think Sorin's a fucktard you must be on team Nahiri

Well aren't you just fucking retarded.

Sorin's such a bro. Nahiri is just a whiny bitch