Welcome to /osrg/ - the OSR General, devoted to pre-WotC D&D, retroclones, and all other related systems

2e morale uses 2d10.

4d6k3, because I'm an AD&D man.

Also, the AC scales are different between the editions. AD&D 2e has unarmored AC at 10, while RC has it at 9. The RC has a nifty appendix in the back for converting between D&D (the RC) and AD&D on pg. 291.

My mistake.

>The RC has a nifty appendix in the back for converting between D&D (the RC) and AD&D on pg. 291.
Some of the later Gazetteers have that conversion section as well. It's very slightly different (level scaling and such), and is for 1e in the earlier iterations.

>What is platemail supposed to be anyway? Is it meant to be like a hauberk with some bits of plate? 14th century style plate?
In most of the early editions it's just called "plate armor" IIRC, and in most of those cases is clearly meant to just represent 16th century style full plate armor.

RC has "suit armor" which is that though, so I think it makes more sense to assume it's early plate as suggested — chainmail enhanced with plate pieces in strategic places.

>Not drawing cards to ensure that everybody gets equal but random scores
In terms of average stats though, I like 3d6+1.

I actually do that on occasion, but those were the only options on the website and I wanted to see what people had to say about them.

I agree. One thing that might be an imperfect solution is to just calculate the maximum range at 20th level, and then multiply it by 2/3. For magic missile that gives a range of 166.6', and you can just round it down to 160'.

I'm not recommending you should use ported ranges for spells that are already in B/X, or OD&D. But it could work out okay if you're porting over a spell that ISN'T already there.

>calculate the maximum range at 20th level, and then multiply it by 2/3
Wouldn't 2/3 of their level 20 range basically just equal their level 13 range, since 2/3 of 20 equals 13.33? But multiplying by 10 is easy and I figure why not just use level 10 as your guide?

>Wouldn't 2/3 of their level 20 range basically just equal their level 13 range, since 2/3 of 20 equals 13.33?
No, I see you're taking 2/3 of the base range too (though wouldn't 2/3 of that range be 173 and not 166.6?). I still say it'd be easier to just take what the range of a spell would be if you were 10th level and stick with that.

Fair enough. I was only advocating the (base+level)*(2/3) because it was close enough to 150' (the RC magic missile range) without becoming excessively fiddly. But, the 10th level range is not only simpler, but even closer (60+100) without needless rounding down. It might even be better to use 9th (name level) ranges, but eh. It's close enough for government work.

I noticed that name level would give you exactly the same value as in Basic for magic missiles, but A) doing 10th level is easier, and B) the several other spells I checked don't fit the same pattern.

Would anyone be kind enough to upload The Undercroft #9? I'm very interested in both the Skinned Moon Daughter and Doctor classes it introduces.

B4 The Lost City is straight out of Red Nails.

>1d16+2
Not seen that before. I like it, though!

Created my first "campaign" yesterday, usually i used something like keep in the borderlands, this time i just used a randomly generated dungeon and started the players outside of it, there, when they wanted to go back just said to them what do you do "buying stuff and shit like that" there was no real town at first just asked them what they wanted to do and back to the dungeon in less than 10 rl minutes

is this an ok way to play?

4d6k3, easily.

Also, 1d16+2? What? That's not even a bellcurve any more - that's literally just a flat line of probability. Those stats would be ridiculously swingy, with threes and eighteens showing up everywhere.

Just tell 'em the truth that you've just got the dungeon, man. If they understand that then they understand the limits of the session, as it is.

Beyond that, though, you should really have some manner of town in mind and probably some wilderness as well. Not necessarily detailed, but enough that you can confidently make up stuff that fits on the spot.

I guess, but you could have just said that it's assumed that they bought things before going to the dungeon so they can buy the stuff they want on the equipment list. No need to have them go back to town.

Why does everyone hate 3d6 so much?

3d6 literally gives an average of 10.5, which in most systems is perfectly average. Your person will have an average stat spread, as to be expected.

"Not muh d20". I can sympathize though, I love the tactile thrill of rolling weird dice.

3d6 in order is great.
In AD&D and AD&D 2, the concept of Balance started to appear, and since ability score bonuses came from OD&D and still needed really high scores, plus the huge variety of classes with different requisites, it became more and more important for PCs to start with high stats. In the end, Gary would DM OD&D with the three little brown book but gave a to-hit and damage bonus to the fighter if they had 15+ STR (remember there's no ability modifier for STR in OD&D), but let his players roll 4d6k3 because it basically felt better to have good stats for heroic characters. That's all there is to it. I don't think 3d6 in order makes for a very efficient team in AD&D 2 since it really starts to turn into what then became 3.X (which is, a wargame with RPG bits in it)

Because they can't be speshul with average stats.

Penalties tend to work less well than bonuses in D&D. Having a -2 strength is absolutely crippling (especially if you're limited to magic-user weapons), and having a -2 constitution slams you into the 1 hit point floor pretty often. Additionally, if you're commonly rolling attribute checks, it's nice to succeed more often than you fail.

In an effort to incentivize the use of halflings in my Basic campaign, I've decided to grant them some minor spellcasting ability. I'd appreciate some feedback on balance.

>(Should note that halflings can reach a maximum experience level of 8 within the rules I'm using)
>Halflings are now pseudo-illusionists. They retain all their normal class abilities, but can also cast select magic user spells up to level 2.
>Halflings conjure spells without any need for complex rituals, but they must have at least one hand free from which to fire the spell. There are no equipment restrictions otherwise.
>Halfings don't need to scribe spells from scrolls, as they will already have knowledge of all available spells as soon as they gain spell charges in that level.
>Halflings don't prepare spells in advance. Instead, they can expend one charge in a spell level to cast any available spell from that level.

See attached pic for spells-per-level granted to halflings.

The available spells include:

>Level 1
Charm Person
Light
Sleep
Ventriloquism

>Level 2
Invisibility
Phantasmal Force
Levitate
Mirror Image

If stats matter, an unbiased system like 3d6x6 where the bonuses are rare is, well, not really the best?

Don't get me wrong, it's fine for OD&D where the stats really don't matter much and in Basic they don't matter THAT much, but when you get into AD&D with percentile strength and every stat giving SOMETHING with high numbers? Yeah, you'll want an alternate stat generation method.

Stats matter is also a bit of a double-edged sword. If rolling well makes your Fighter literally twice as effective, for instance, that means that your tough monsters are now half as powerful in the face of that - or more, really, given AC and THAC0 adjustments.
So you start to make monsters that take into account the possibility of high-level characters having bullshit stats that make them able to steamroll the previous monsters, but then you run into the issue of these monsters being TOO powerful against the mere mortals that RNGesus didn't smile upon.

So, y'know, you make it so that everyone starts a bit closer to that theoretical maximum. Nudge the bellcurve over a bit so that you still get some variance, it's just not THAT much variance.

Also, of course, sometimes you just want your characters to be tougher for whatever reason. If they're stronger you can put them through more without them breaking - it's why Dark Sun had you roll 5d4 for abilities. You get an advantage, but that's only because you'll fucking need it.

There's plenty of other reasons for people to want non-3d6x6 generation systems, of course. One immediately obvious one is the one where you don't really get to choose what you play, while in a 3d6 arranged as desired system you do. It allows for dump stats, yes, but it also allows you to play X class without winning the lottery.

>(Should note that halflings can reach a maximum experience level of 8 within the rules I'm using)

Doesn't matter, nobody is still going to play them.

Even if its unlikely that people will get to that level, nobody wants to go play a character concept that gets stuck prematurely while everyone else gets to continue to advance and become more powerful.

>Halflings are now pseudo-illusionists. They retain all their normal class abilities, but can also cast select magic user spells up to level 2.
Illusionists got their own spell list, so that's probably not the best example. They were more like the Druid than later 2E on specialist mages.
>Halflings conjure spells without any need for complex rituals, but they must have at least one hand free from which to fire the spell. There are no equipment restrictions otherwise.
So Elves with slightly less restrictions, got it.
>Halfings don't need to scribe spells from scrolls, as they will already have knowledge of all available spells as soon as they gain spell charges in that level.
So B/X rules. Works fine, I suppose.
>Halflings don't prepare spells in advance. Instead, they can expend one charge in a spell level to cast any available spell from that level.
Ah, the 3E Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necromancer. We meet again. This does change the resource management game a bit, but given the number of spells involved not that much.

As for the spells, though:
>Level 1
Charm Person and Sleep are the obvious winners here, since those are literally the two best 1st-level MU spells. Or, well, arguably. Ventriloquism is niche but slightly more useful given the spontaneous casting. Light as well, although I can't see it being used for blinding when Charm and Sleep do an even better job for the same saving throw. (Sleep gets a save in Basic, right?)

>Level 2
Invisibility lasts for-fucking-ever, but also has the weird thing where it's pretty redundant with the already godlike stealth halflings have. At least it lets them hide other people? Phantasmal Force is a weird choice since it's probably the second-most broad spell there is, second only to Wish - it's a lot of improvisation on an already improv-heavy spontaneous chassis. Levitate is, well, Levitate. Poor man's Fly. At level four or six, depending on the priority you give it.
Mirror Image is kind of OP on a Fighter?

I'd push their spell casting back a level. If clerics don't have spells at 1st level, should they?

>Should note that halflings can reach a maximum experience level of 8 within the rules I'm using
This is honestly their biggest weakness. Under normal circumstances, they should be able to reach at least 12th, like dwarves.

So for those of you out there that like OSR blogs;

What kind of content is your favorite on the blogs? Is it setting based? New content like classes or spells? Play Reports? Houserules? Meta (such as state of RPGs today) or Editorial material?

>nobody is still going to play them
Hey, they're halflings, not gnomes.

>nobody wants to go play a character concept that gets stuck prematurely

I guess they work if you roleplay them in a very niche way. Keep them equipped with slings and don't have them rush into the fray. They probably shine most outside of combat where they can
>Easily move about undetected, allowing them to spy or ascertain danger.
>Can get into nooks and crannies that larger characters can't. This might allow them to recover treasure that's tucked into small corners, or traverse to the other side of a door and activate its opening mechanism.

So really, they have more of a utilitarian use... like a ferret.

Unless you know that the campaign is probably not going to go much further past that point, in which case you can rest smug in being the Fighter but better.

Also, of course, even at level eight it takes a while before the humans get noticeably better - long enough that they're close to the soft level 14 cap in B/X. Mostly because advancement in general is so damn slow after name level, and the Halfling's saves are so good that they're kind of equal to a max-level human?

Halflings are a pretty damn strong choice in B/X, although the same can't be said for OD&D where they're mostly trash and also an optional race on account of being trash.

I don't know that RAW halflings are better than fighters. They have d6 hit dice instead of d8, are more limited when it comes to weapons, and have two prime requisites to contend with. This is counterbalanced by some sweet saving throws, their hide ability, and a couple of fiddly modifiers (-2 AC vs. large creatures, and +1 to individual initiative, which you probably aren't using). Overall, it seems like a wash. Until you consider their level cap, anyway.

I like setting material and house rules, specifically if they fit within a general theme like sword & planet, or horror. Play reports can be fun, while meta/editorial material are things I'll read but won't appreciate unless they're few and far between. I've got Tenkar's Tavern for that.

I like custom sandboxes, those are always fun to see. Plug-and-play encounters or dungeons can also be useful.

What is /osr/'s interpretation on elf spellcasting? I don't mean Whitebox elves who had to choose between playing a fighter or a mage, but later iterations of the elf (like Rules Cyclopedia) that multiclass the character.

Does this version of the elf have the same casting restrictions as human mages, or can they cast magic while using any kind of equipment setup?

I have a house rule for dual-wielding in my campaign. Fighters, dwarves, elves and halflings can do it, with regard to whatever equipment restrictions they have. The character must be wielding two instances of the same type of weapon, never mismatched setups like a sword and a mace.

Dual-wielding permits the player to make a second attack roll and use the higher outcome to determine damage output. But only one outcome is used. Abstractly, this is portrayed as the character having scored two attacks, even though on paper it's only one (very good) attack.

Kind of makes halflings more useful in melee combat. There isn't much incentive to go back to using a sling though, since two short swords will certainly outclass the halfling's missile bonus.

>is this an ok way to play?
Of course it is.
Persoanlly I don't think I could keep myself from fleshing out the town and surrounding wilderness and then the entire region and so on, but that's just my autism or love of world building if you prefer, although those are the same thing flaring up.

>(Sleep gets a save in Basic, right?)
It does not.

I agree with literally everything else you wrote though, should note this is spot on.

Pretty sure RC elves can explicitly cast in any armor and only need one free hand and the ability to speak.

The whole "choose whether to be a fighter or magic-user at the start of each adventure" is stupid. With that said, Basic's multiclass fighter/magic-user approach is overpowered. In compensation for lagging maybe 2/3 of a level behind magic-users, elves get d6 hit dice, access to all armor and weapons, infravision, and the ability to detect secret doors (though granted, they have two prime requisites instead of one). Swords & Wizardry White Box variant elves (that is, the ones that operate like multiclass fighter/magic-users rather than picking a class at the beginning of each adventure) slow their spell progression (so that they get a new spell level approximately once every three levels), increase their XP requirements a bit, disallow using two-handed weapons or shields while spell-casting, and suggest limiting them to chainmail. That, however, may be overdoing it a bit.

The pic here is an alternate XP progression I came up with to try to balance the demihuman classes against their human counterparts.

The thing is, though, that those weapon restrictions don't actually matter. All they can't use are two-handed weapons, which are generally worse than a sword (the hands-down best weapon in B/X), and the longbow, which literally just has +40% range over the shortbow. Which they get +1 to hit with, meaning that at the very least they offset ranged penalties. Or, y'know, the -2 THAC0 you have relative to a 13th-level Cleric. (And the +4 to Fighter saves means that the Fighter doesn't catch up until level 13 as well.)

Their 2-in-6 chance of hiding in dungeons is like a fifth-level Thief, but their 9-in-10 in undergrowth is like a twelth-level Thief - and guess at what levels wilderness exploration starts to kick in?

-2AC against large enemies is a pretty damn big bonus, and means that you go from AC2 to AC0 at the very least. The AC bonus is a bit fiddly, but not overly so - changing a number by two is pretty easy for humans, and if you play a Halfling you're likely to keep an eye out for opportunities to use it.

So maybe not necessarily strictly better than the Fighter, but there's not that many downsides before level nine - mostly just the hit point, to be honest, and that's arguably offset by the increase in saving throws and AC.
I definitely don't think that they fall behind irreparably, though, and believe that they stay competitive all the way out to level 12 - or beyond, with BECMI, but that's a separate game.

Also, of course, the Halfling gets to make a stronghold literally whenever they have enough money for it. Not that this matters much in B/X since so much of that is just straight-up DM fiat, though.

Basic elves inherit the OD&D elf's ability to cast in magic armor (but only MAGIC armor), IIRC.

>It does not.
Whelp, guess that's another tick in my "Fuck Supplement I: Greyhawk" box. Seriously, wasn't that spell powerful enough as-is without removing the save?

>The whole "choose whether to be a fighter or magic-user at the start of each adventure" is stupid.
It should be noted that I'm pretty sure that the way actual OD&D Elves worked was that you had all the abilities of both classes but just chose which one got the XP from each adventure. Also they have shit level limits in both classes, obviously.

Then again, the OD&D Elf is confusing as fuck so who the hell knows. That's the impression I got from reading it, the Greyhawk elf and the Men & Magic multiclassing footnote, though.

>The thing is, though, that those weapon restrictions don't actually matter. All they can't use are two-handed weapons, which are generally worse than a sword (the hands-down best weapon in B/X)
It depends on how you read things. The interpretation I've usually seen is that a sword is like a two-handed sword in the hands of a halfling, thus barring use of a shield.

Basic elves can cast spells in armor. From Moldvay Basic:

>RESTRICTIONS: Elves use six-sided dice (d6) to determine their hit points. They may advance to a maximum of 10th level of experience. Elves have the advantages of both fighters and magic-users. They may use shields and can wear any type of armor, and may fight with any kind of weapon. They can also cast spells like a magic-user, and use the same spell list. A character must have an intelligence of 9 or greater to be an elf.

>Basic elves inherit the OD&D elf's ability to cast in magic armor (but only MAGIC armor), IIRC.
Nope, that's an AD&D thing. I just went ahead and checked; RC page 25 makes no mention of any casting restriction whatever (remember that the M-U doesn't have any explicit restrictions on what armors it can specifically *cast in* either, just the implicit one of not being able to use armor). Neither does the Spells chapter, the Equipment chapter, the Combat chapter, or the magic items section of Chapter 16.

Note that this is exactly the same as for the Cleric, so any argument that the Elf's spellcasting is restricted also implies that the Cleric's must be. I think it's pretty clear that that's not the case.

>Whelp, guess that's another tick in my "Fuck Supplement I: Greyhawk" box.
Kek, it even explicitly says "The victims get NO saving throw against this spell" at the end of the spell description.

>That's the impression I got from reading it, the Greyhawk elf and the Men & Magic multiclassing footnote, though.
Yes, the footnote's the really damning one for anyone who wants to parse the OD&D Elf any other way, as I recall. If you assume it works some other way, there's no reason for that footnote to be there in the first place (unless my memory's getting really badly mixed up).

>Halflings can use any type of weapon and armor which has been "cut down" to their size. Thus, they cannot use a two-handed sword or a long bow, but may use a sword or short bow.
Note that Basic only has Daggers, three swords (short, normal, two-handed), and "other weapons" - the Mace/Club/Sling/War Hammer which are all usable by Clerics, and the two-handed Pole Arm and one-handed Spear which aren't.

Basic notes that two-handed weapons disallow shields and cause initiative to be lost, but is completely mum on Halflings using normal swords.

Expert doesn't say anything on the matter either, I don't think, although the Rules Cyclopedia does go a step further and disallow normal swords.

So, yeah, I dunno. Personally I'd allow a shield because why not. Once you start putting in weapon sizes and changing those relative to races it just all gets a bit too complicated, I feel.

So elf spellcasting is essentially always ambiguous and probably best left up to the DM?

I suppose the elf would at least need one free hand to gesture the spell, and also not be gagged or silenced. (Surely, the Silence spell is intended to affect elves as well as mages)

That brings up another concern: Would Silence have any impact on clerical spellcasting?

>Yes, the footnote's the really damning one for anyone who wants to parse the OD&D Elf any other way, as I recall. If you assume it works some other way, there's no reason for that footnote to be there in the first place (unless my memory's getting really badly mixed up).
This is the one I'm talking about, by the way:
>Changing Character Class: While changing class (for other than elves) is not recommended, the following rule should be applied: In order for men to change class they must have a score of 16 or better in the prime requisite (see below) of the class they wish to change to, and this score must be unmodified. A Cleric with a "strength" of 15, for example, could not become a Fighting-Man. In any event Magic-Users cannot become Clerics and vice-versa.
Like most things in OD&D, it's vague as hell and gives you more questions than answers.

Elf spellcasting in Basic works exactly the same as Magic-User spellcasting, down to the spellbook, with the one exception that Elves can cast spells while wearing armor.

The only reason that Magic-Users can't is because their class is restricted from wearing armor for balance reasons. Also probably aesthetic reasons.

Clerics in Basic also care about the same things as Magic-Users when casting spells, IIRC, but you really shouldn't take my word for this - go read what the book actually says. The beginning of Moldvay Expert's section on spells has a decent rundown, IIRC. The Rules Cyclopedia probably has something in the procedures somewhere.

Ah, alright. I was getting things confused with the OD&D elf, who has the specific "magic armor" thing - although, then again, there's some people who subscribe to the theory that the weapon/armor restrictions in the LBBs only apply to MAGIC weapons/armor - I'm not one of them, but it's one of those weird vagueries people argue about.

Good plot hooks to have my players enter Khirima (Nigerian city) in World of the Lost for LotFP, aside from just hearing about silver tributes or traveling with a caravan?

I have 2 solid players atm, a Maasai Fighter and an Egyptian Specialist (thief) if it helps.

I have a bit of a weird question.

I might be running an Engine Heart oneshot for some friends of mine, and I was thinking about running them through an old school dungeon crawl just to see what it would be like.

Ignoring fluff as to why a bunch of robots are going on a dungeon delve, what would be some good modules to use for this?

S3 "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks"

im pretty sure you can convert some DCC modules like People of the Pit easily.

...

Anyone have Lusus Naturae for LotFP? It's by the guy who did Teratic Tome, which was pretty fantastic

Why is OSR so fucking gay?

It's either AD&D with the stupid THAC0 thing that is only clung to out of nostalgia, or its retarded inelegant character progression with different Xp for each class, or it's a fuckton of tables. I like gritty games, i like hexcrawl, I like low complexity and even the lack of skills / skill points for the most part, but these autistically obtuse, just flat-out badly designed rules grind my gears. They aren't even that complicated to learn but I can't stand them because they are just trying to copy the flaws of AD&D and lose half of what is good about it.

Is there an OSR game that doesn't use:

> THAC0
> autistic attack matrices
> varying XP rates for advancement
> level caps
> class/race restrictions
> stupid-ass tables for what happen when I punch someone

Will check both of these out.

S&W doesn't use THAC0, either doesn't use level caps for certain races or makes them very easy to ignore, doesn't have race/class restrictions, and the only tables it uses for attacks are "do you hit."

It also has a place at the bottom of the character sheet where you can write what AC each roll can attack.

It even lets you use ascending AC if you want.

The Black Hack. Old School Hack (which is old-school in spirit but not mechanics).

Historically most duel wielding has been with a sword and dagger. Not equally sized weapons.

Thanks faggots, I'll look into them

Old School Hack is great, but I wish it went beyond level 5.

most OSR games don't emulate AD&D, most of them emulate BX/BECMI/RC D&D which is fairly different(if compatible) from AD&D, also OSR games are incredibly easy to modify so you can easily make one fit your needs

>> THAC0
>> autistic attack matrices
Basic Fantasy, Castles & Crusades, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Swords & Wizardry (optional)...

> varying XP rates for advancement
Nothing springs to mind. Varying XP is pretty standard. I'm in favor of standardized progression, but variable progression isn't that much extra trouble.

> level caps
A whole lot of people just ignore them. Granted, this can take away a balancing factor for demihumans, but it's a stupid one anyway (as it either doesn't apply or it completely shuts you down). It should be said, however, that the level caps for Moldvay Basic are actually pretty appropriate. If you take 14th level as the highest level attainable, 12th level for dwarves and 10th level for elves is about right. Halflings get shafted, but you could houserule them going up to 13th or 14th level (they use the fighter's XP progression, so you wouldn't even have to extrapolate that).

> class/race restrictions
Races are their own classes in Basic, which obviates the issue. But really the class/race restrictions are there for fluff rather than crunch reasons, and if you're okay with elves being clerics and halflings being paladins, then it's easy enough just to ignore them. Back in the day, there wasn't this feeling that tweaking the rules was somehow cheap, and any DM worth their salt had at least a few house rules.

> stupid-ass tables for what happen when I punch someone
This is pretty much every OSR game. I think 2e had an optional unarmed combat table that nobody used, but other than that...

Last time I checked it was free on Dtrpg

It's been $6.66 for as long as I've known.

Running a game with total newbies rn. What module is best for us after Keep on the Borderlands?

Boderlands on the keep

Depends on what kind of thing you're into, I guess. I've always liked B3 Palace of the Silver Princess (the revised, green-cover version). It's a lot less sandbox-y and more typical dungeon crawl than B2 is, albeit it with a little twist.

Lost City

Oh, I think for a while it was pwyw, never mind then.

I'd upload it but am on mobile atm.

Yeah. Dual wielding equally sized weapons males it Hard to party and significantly reduces the strength of each strike. Any HEMA instructor will tell you use only sword & dagger if you intend to dual wield at all.

my houserule for LotFP is that if you dual wield, you get a +1 melee attack AC to coincide with the idea of using the offhand as defense and not attack.

So play something else then, Philippus Bombastus Theophrastus von Trollenheim. First edition WHFRP sounds like it might be your speed.

Has anyone here tried Mazes and Minotaurs? How is it?

It does enough differently from standard that it has my interest piqued, but it also does enough differently that I find myself concerned it could be a total shit show.

>Dual wielding equally sized weapons males it Hard to party
Well, yeah. I mean, how are you supposed to even hold your beer?

>the black hack

Oh, this is just what I've been looking for. I'm not even that guy, but I've been looking for a game like this for years. Something that looks past the basic mechanical trappings of the OSR game and tries encapsulate the spirit of the games without descending into weird freeformery like Dungeon World (not inherently bad, not my thing). Thank you very much.

Black Hack is alright. It would be brilliant to intoriduce players to RPGs with.

I just cant get over how boring constantly rolling a d20 (aside from damage) the entire game is.

I've been looking for something that eschews the various mechanical idioms of OSR games that the OSR scene has enshrined and fetishized, to creating something both mechanically elegant and in the spirit of OSR games and I think this fits well. I might give it a shot later to run a dungeon crawl or something.

I really don't see how it would get much more boring than regular OSR games. It can't be any worse than playing a fighter in Basic Fantasy.

I just come from the middle-ground that actually likes skills (LotFP/BX style) but not an abundance of them (Pathfinder, 3.5+ etc.)

I like things not just being attribute based. I can pull my leg over my neck IRL. Why would that make me better at picking locks or climbing walls?

Pretty much, I like *slightly* more crunch.

I'm not necessarily against crunch exactly, but on the whole I feel like there's too much fetishism of the old school mechanics in the OSR scene. I can understand wanting to defend these mechanics when you get the post-TSR crowd deriding them as old fashioned, but there seems to be a pervasive thread of "this was how it was done in my favourite version of the game, and thus this is the best way it could be done" in OSR gaming. This leads to an unwillingness to experiment with the design, which means an unwillingness to actually look at what made these games good. It wasn't simply their mechanical trappings, it was a combination of many factors that made them greater than the sum of their parts.

I'm very fond of games like this because there does seem to be a clear effort to take that kind of inquisitive look under the hood, and to see if things can be made better.

>Dual wielding equally sized weapons males it Hard to party and significantly reduces the strength of each strike.
Not... really? I *am* an assistant HEMA instructor, and this sounds like nonsense to me. Why would you hit less hard or parry less securely with a one-handed sword or axe because you're holding something in your left hand?

That said, making realistic dual-wielding rules is almost impossible, so you might as well go for movie style in your game rules. Even restricting yourself to *just* rapier and dagger, the way the dagger changes the dynamic is really hard to put into a simple rule - when you add the possibility of other weapons, there's no way any one rule could encapsulate it.

Very true
What I'd do is make parrying (the characters AC value) more difficult & do a small decrease in overall damage (maybe like, -1 or more depending on the weapons in question) in exchange for the character being able to roll for damage twice and picking the higher roll

For me, its not so much fetishising the old ways. Its that having *one* mechanic makes the whole thing feel like a Chutes & Ladders boardgame to me.

All that aside, of all the OD&D homages out there, DESU does it well.

>This leads to an unwillingness to experiment with the design

This statement makes me wonder what OSR you've been watching.

What if you're dual-wielding beers, though?

Eh I saw it on a Skallagrim video. Feel free to hate. They made a pretty good case for dual wielding being retarded.

>DESU
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