In-story Emrakul is the strongest entity ever known, stronger than yawgmoth or urza or nicol bolas

urza's not any stronger than any of the modern nu-walkers

Urza found it easier to pivot all the molecules in his body to face left than it was to physically turn left. NewWalkers don't come anywhere close to that level of reality manipulation.

>urza's not any stronger than any of the modern nu-walkers' plot armor
FTFY

/thread; this guy gets it.

his associated spells and artifacts are all more or less unusable and his lands are gimmicky garbage

I thought that boosters were like a vacation to a plane, and your pack is what you saw.
So it'd be really common to see an ordinary bear, but really rare to meet another planeswalker. Then, your deck kind of becomes your photo album, and duels are just showing other people your vacation photos.

I just happened to see Liliana a lot. I swear I wasn't stalking her even though I have 200 photos of her.

>duels with other planewalkers are just comparing photo albums
>planeswalkers are just old retirees from Boca Raton showing each other vacation photos

Zendikar had one fucking expensive photo album then.

It's a tourist trap

Emrakul isn't a being focused on being powerful.

Ulamog, Emrakul, and Kozilek serve the universe function of recycling planes into new planes with new life on them.

Ulamog destroys everything and gathers the mana to make the new world, Kozi reconfigures the plane and its physics and shit for the new world, and Emrakul seeds the new world with life that will go on to evolve into all the things you know about.

this makes Emrakul the literal mother of the all life.

so it isn't about "power" and shit, what she does is power simply as a consquence.

I look forward to the Mending 2.0, where Jace and friends kill Emrakul once and for all, only to it to turn out that killing her has doomed the multiverse and Jace needs to sacrifice himself to become Planeswalker Jesus and rebuild the universe.

You think it's like this:
>Behold, I am Emrakul, thrusting myself into this universe! Tremble at the sight of my mighty extremities!
>Tap for UU, Counterspell.
>No! I, Emrakul, have been thwarted!

How it actually is:
>I'm just a punk planeswalker but I'm pooling all of this mana to try and summon Emrakul to this plane.
>Tap for UU, Counterspell.
>Well shit, I guess my attempt to summon Emrakul failed. At least some of her madness leaks through anyway and infects my opponent on his next turn.

Emrakul doesn't want to hurt anyone and helped the Jace league imprison herself so she can become "complete"

possibly hinting at her evolving into a planeswalker/sentient being.

>Stronger than Yawgmoth

Citation needed.

Plot-Gameplay Segregation

Think of it like this.
When you're casting a spell, you open a portal. The opponent can cancel the portal before it comes out of it.

That being said, it dies to a Ruinous Path.

>planeswalker Jesus
I hope not, Jesus came back from the dead.

For all that they are, Yawgmoth and Nicol Bolas and Urza could be consumed by the entirety of a plane channeled into the form of pure destruction.
In fact Urza and Yawgmoth were destroyed by far less than that and Bolas wouldn't fare much better either.
However Emrakul, Emrakul cannot be killed even if all the energy available to Innistrad was channeled into blazing devastation through Chandra (the way Ulamog and Kozilek were killed). An entire plane could not manage to kill Emrakul. Perhaps Zendikar could at full power might be able to, but Zendikar is an outlier that is repeatedly and consistently mentioned to have far more powerful mana than other planes.

Other than perhaps Marit Lage who is unknown and unknowable, Emrakul is the hardest thing to kill in the multiverse.

>it does all that
>for colorless mana
Nigga is that what magic is these days? A gigantic fucking creature that's the definition of unfun, especially if you cheese it into play?

Nigga death cloud Yawgmoth would just consume Emrakul like instant noodles served with shiitake mushrooms because Emrakul can't shoot up white mana to damage him and even if she could he would just go tentacle Yawgmoth like he did who had more tentacles than Emrakul.

I wonder what the planar strength of Alara is.
At it's highest, I feel like it would be on par with Zendikar? Not entirely sure... I doubt it matters seeing how Bolas probably drained it.

What are you talking about?

Emrakul does general mana.

Kozi's the Titan who cares about colorless mana.

Same shit.

You may be clinically intellectually disabled. Seek help, or ask your mother. If you forgot who that is, she is the one who puts your helmet on you in the morning.

This is now my head canon.

>wank wank wank wank wank
The Legacy Weapon was not pure white mana, sufficient mana can destroy Yawgmoth. Much less than a plane's worth.

> evolving into a planeswalker/sentient being
Dude, she is already both of those things. The fact that she doesn't talk or anything doesn't mean she isn't sentient; it means she doesn't give two shits about the ants that rush around her as she works.

... if you think generic mana costs is the same as colorless mana cost, I have the laugh.

Soon you will be telling (R/B) (R/P) and (R/2) are the same mana symbols.

I'm pretty sure Jace's mind trick giving her an angel body in his dreams is mostly an artifact of him attempting to understand her static.

>pedantry
Okay. Fine.

>it does all that
>for any mana you want, and thus stupidly easy to case, especially if you cheese it into play
Is this what magic has become?

Not that guy but the Legacy Weapon only killed Yawgmoth after he was wounded with the white mana from the Null Moon.

And on top of that we're talking about the most broken thing ever designed. Emrakul would most likely get killed by it, just like it would in a game match.

It doesn't do all that if you cheese it into play, the mindslaver effect is explicitly "when you cast".
And if you treat 13 mana is stupidly-easy-to-case, you only prove how utterly bad you are at Magic. 13 hard-casting mana can and should end the game.

Yeah, but the fact that the static can be translated means it was coherent in the first place, just not to anything less than an eldrazi, or the paranoid backup plan of some mind mage.

7 isn't

The Null Moon was a space station. It had far less mana than a plane. If that could injure Yawgmoth, then claiming all the leylines of Dominaria and channeling them into a cannon of mana would kill Yawgmoth much moreso. The comparison is silly.
And Emrakul in-game, hell, the "titan Emrakul" that everyone sees and fears is nothing more than Emrakul's grasping limb that reaches into planar space. The real Emrakul sits in the blind eternities, yet more massive and unassailable than her siblings.

Eh, Emrakul could just be the manafestiation of monkeys typing out Shakespeare, and some point she just stops matching because the monkeys started writing Nietzsche.

No wonder he had troubled feelings about the ladies.

Ok... why are people worried about emmy being countered. She has pro instants. Unless that effect happens after the fact

This is abjectly wrong. Urza was able to collapse an entire plane into energy and trap it in a rock. Last time I checked Zendikar and Innistrad are both still there. Emmy may or may not outclass nu Bolas (signs point to no), but compared to Urza they're both like insects next to a man. Yawg is a god compared to even Urza.

If you're not casting her, Emrakul the Promised End is hardly better than any other staple killing machine. And she's worse than Emrakul the Aeons Torn, since Annihilator 6 does so much more than trample.
Admittedly, Emrakul the Aeons Torn is perhaps the best creature ever printed.

>claiming all the leylines of Dominaria and channeling them into a cannon of mana would kill Yawgmoth much moreso
Nice assumption.

>The real Emrakul sits in the blind eternities, yet more massive and unassailable than her siblings.
>implying the Legacy Weapon couldn't destroy her limb by limb

I think Emrakul made the other Titans. It makes more sense that Ulamog and kozilek were just really good minions that Emrakul dragged around with her to help make the whole process faster. It also explains how they were much easier to kill than she is.

The effect essentially does not exist while Emrakul is a spell waiting to resolve.

>Urza was able to collapse an entire plane into energy and trap it in a rock
What a terrible misconception. Serra's Realm was collapsing all on its own, it was never designed to contain black mana and was undergoing a phyrexian invasion (bringing in a lot of black mana). All Urza did was metaphorically remove the supports so its natural collapse would happen in a controlld manner.

After the fact. Her abilities don't kick in until after she's entered the field.

>Nice assumption.
Valid, though.
>implying the Legacy Weapon couldn't destroy her limb by limb
Destroy the titan and the Eldrazi just leaves. It will not be dead. Ugin made that very clear.

why did Nicol Bolas want them out and about anyway?

We haven't seen Bolas (outside of a cameo on Tarkir) for rather a long time, really.

Well now i feel dumb. Good to know though

>Valid, though
Yawgmoth wasn't killed by mana, only injured. It's an unfounded assumption to think more mana would kill him.

>Destroy the titan and the Eldrazi just leaves. It will not be dead. Ugin made that very clear.
Ugin, the guy who couldn't kill the other two titans?

This time on Veeky Forums is Bad at Magic!

Speculation is that he wants to undo the mending, and the research that Ugin was doing on the eldrazi might give him some leg up on getting that ball moving.

>Yawgmoth wasn't killed by mana, only injured. It's an unfounded assumption to think more mana would kill him.
It's "unfounded" to think what injures can kill when scaled up? That's nonsense.
>Ugin, the guy who couldn't kill the other two titans?
I thought it was heavily inferred that oldwalker Ugin would've been able to kill the titans with relative ease if he had an animist who could shape Zendikar's leylines. He simply fears the unknown consequences of a dead Eldrazi.

I hit your foot with a hammer. You are injured. I drop a twenty ton boulder on your foot. Are you dead?

>It's "unfounded" to think what injures can kill when scaled up? That's nonsense.
It's unfounded because there's no proof that mana could kill him. There's not even proof that mana from other colors would have the same effect. You would need to assume endless amounts of white mana for that to be a valid assumption, and it would still be just an assumption nonetheless.

>He simply fears the unknown consequences of a dead Eldrazi.
Case in point. He doesn't know shit about killing the Eldrazi because he never killed one.

Your analogy is perfect for the Eldrazi, but useless for a being who is present in their entirety like Yawgmoth.
>It's unfounded because there's no proof that mana could kill him. There's not even proof that mana from other colors would have the same effect. You would need to assume endless amounts of white mana for that to be a valid assumption, and it would still be just an assumption nonetheless.
The Legacy Weapon was just another release of mana fired through Urza and the Weatherlight, and it killed Yawgmoth.
Even if that happened because he was wounded by white mana, it just goes in an illogical circle. Now he can be killed by something but not wounded by the same thing?

>Case in point. He doesn't know shit about killing the Eldrazi because he never killed one.
Destroying a titan doesn't kill an Eldrazi. It's entirely possible he killed or saw them killed in ages past, or accurately concluded as much from his studies on their nature.
Assuming "Ugin is wrong about how Eldrazi work" is utterly ridiculous.

He wants to send them to Kamigawa as revenge against the descendants of the nip that BTFO him.

I'm still not sure Ugin didn't just con Nahiri into letting him keep the Eldrazi on Zendikar so he could keep experimenting with them. Hell, Ugin might have been trying to weaponize them to fight Bolas for all we know. Ugin, despite appearing all nice and shit (for a dragon) , could very well be just as bad as Bolas, but we'll never find out until Ugin gets an origins-like treatment.

You've reversed the story, the one that killed him was a descendant of the one on Kamigawa. Kamigawa was a prequel set that took place a good thousand years before any other set (excluding Antiquities).

>Your deck is your mind. Each card represents a memory that impacted you on your travels as a planes walker.
Then why are there the legendary creature restrictions?

>The Legacy Weapon was just another release of mana fired through Urza and the Weatherlight, and it killed Yawgmoth. Even if that happened because he was wounded by white mana, it just goes in an illogical circle. Now he can be killed by something but not wounded by the same thing?
It's not the same thing though. The light from the Legacy Weapon wasn't just mana, it was some mysterious energy powered by Urza's/Glacian's manjuice that literally unmade Yawgmoth.

For all we know Yawgmoth could regenerate from any damage caused by mere channeled mana. We're talking about a disembodied, plane-wide cloud of destruction after all.

>Assuming "Ugin is wrong about how Eldrazi work" is utterly ridiculous.
Utterly ridiculous is to make an empty assumption (that he "could" have killed or seen an eldrazi get killed in the past) upon another empty assumption (that he actually knows anything about killing them when personally didn't) and call it a valid argument.

Never trust a millennia old dragon.

>People that cross Ugin's path often come down with a severe case of trusting-a-millenia-old-dragon.

>It's not the same thing though. The light from the Legacy Weapon wasn't just mana, it was some mysterious energy powered by Urza's/Glacian's manjuice that literally unmade Yawgmoth.
>For all we know Yawgmoth could regenerate from any damage caused by mere channeled mana. We're talking about a disembodied, plane-wide cloud of destruction after all.
If so you're saying releasing the stored energy of the null moon was a pointless gesture.
And I'd be willing to say becoming a conduit for all of Dominaria's mana would unleash greater effects than the Legacy Weapon. The Legacy Weapon was not more than an entire plane. To suggest otherwise is just as empty an insinuation, none of the story claims as much.

>Utterly ridiculous is to make an empty assumption (that he "could" have killed or seen an eldrazi get killed in the past) upon another empty assumption (that he actually knows anything about killing them when personally didn't) and call it a valid argument.
Here's where our context is getting blurry. I meant to say he saw an Eldrazi titan be destroyed (e.g. Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, not Ulamog, the Eldrazi that dwells within the Blind Eternities). This is possible due to the hostility he reacts when Jace suggests killing the titans, and how easily he deduces what occurred when they actually killed the Eldrazi (as in the greater being behind the titan).
Even if he has not seen one die, he clearly knows the accurate nature of their existence, and doubting that is just doubting the story itself. If the eldrazi do not exist as more within the blind eternities, they wouldn't have become more when pulled out of the blind eternities. They did. End of discussion.

But how do you know that enough of a titan got pulled in that killing that part kills the entire crab?

Fundamentally, you can't.

The Blind Eternities is a vast place, and hard to look through.

>why can't I have two copies of the exact same hero fighting side by side

Because shitty writing like that comes from children and comic books.

>If so you're saying releasing the stored energy of the null moon was a pointless gesture.
Not pointless because it destabilized Yawgmoth and bought them enough time to finish him with the Legacy Weapon.

>And I'd be willing to say becoming a conduit for all of Dominaria's mana would unleash greater effects than the Legacy Weapon. The Legacy Weapon was not more than an entire plane. To suggest otherwise is just as empty an insinuation, none of the story claims as much.
But it isn't. You're ignoring the fact that Dominaria's mana and the Legacy Weapon's power are not just quantitatively different but also qualitatively.

It's a fact that the Legacy Weapon killed Yawgmoth. It's not a fact that extra mana would have killed him.

>Even if he has not seen one die, he clearly knows the accurate nature of their existence, and doubting that is just doubting the story itself.
Doubting that is doubting extent of the character's knowledge (and possibly his intentions in revealing such knowledge) in the story, not the story itself.

I doubt Zendikar would do things by half. I am certain it would pull the eldrazi down until there was nothing left to pull.
Remember that Zendikar, the plane itself, is sentient and unendingly furious.

>But it isn't. You're ignoring the fact that Dominaria's mana and the Legacy Weapon's power are not just quantitatively different but also qualitatively.
And yet there are no given qualities for it. This sounds like guesswork and rationalization, I don't remember reading anything like it.

>Doubting that is doubting extent of the character's knowledge (and possibly his intentions in revealing such knowledge) in the story, not the story itself.
It is at least accurate to the degree that there is much more of the greater eldrazi than its titan, and it's reasonable to glean from there that destroying the titan (which is a slim fragment of the greater being, considering titans are the size of a mountain while the greater eldrazi are at minimum the size of a planetoid) would not diminish the greater being.

It is barely stronger than a Phyrexian Dreadnought, which is a generic Phyrexian Warmachine. So, no, its not close to as strong as Yawg.

>generic
Phyrexian dreadnoughts were the greatest and most powerful of phyrexian artifice, stronger than even the high ranking demons of Phyrexia. No need to downplay them.

>And yet there are no given qualities for it. This sounds like guesswork and rationalization, I don't remember reading anything like it.
We know for a fact that it doesn't just channel mana. That's the whole point of Urza's eyes combined with Glacian's spark, it was something designed specifically to destroy someone as powerful as Yawgmoth and not just raw mana.

You're only dismissing this because it undermines your entire argument.

>It is at least accurate to the degree that there is much more of the greater eldrazi than its titan, and it's reasonable to glean from there that destroying the titan (which is a slim fragment of the greater being, considering titans are the size of a mountain while the greater eldrazi are at minimum the size of a planetoid) would not diminish the greater being.
That's why I said it would kill Emrakul limb by limb. While we don't know exactly how big they are we know that at least parts of them can be destroyed by mana. And if the Legacy Weapon is more powerful/lethal than just mana, then it follows that it would destroy Emrakul.

>You're only dismissing this because it undermines your entire argument.
I'm dismissing it because it's empty supposition. There's nothing that implies it is actually anything more.
Yes, it was channeled through the combined planeswalker spark of Urza, and Karn, and the Weatherlight. This doesn't mean that gave it any anti-Yawgmoth properties. It's your headcanon. Cite a single sentence from any book.

>And if the Legacy Weapon is more powerful/lethal than just mana, then it follows that it would destroy Emrakul.
And now you're contradicting yourself. Is it an anti-Yawgmoth superweapon or something that would destroy anything? I agree it would destroy anything, and probably an Eldrazi titan too, but it probably wouldn't kill the entire Emrakul if all the mana on Innistrad couldn't.

>There's nothing that implies it is actually anything more
>proceeds to describe exactly how it's more than channeled mana

>This doesn't mean that gave it any anti-Yawgmoth properties.
>Is it an anti-Yawgmoth superweapon or something that would destroy anything?
I never said anti-Yawgmoth. Read it again, I said it was designed specifically to destroy someone "as powerful as" Yawgmoth. And it's pretty damn obvious that Yawgmoth was the most powerful character in the story.

>but it probably wouldn't kill the entire Emrakul if all the mana on Innistrad couldn't.
Again, because the mana in Innistrad is just mana and not an ultimate spark-powered death ray. If you're going to insist that there's not difference between these two things then there's nothing else to discuss about.

desu the Invasion story is pretty retarded.

>>proceeds to describe exactly how it's more than channeled mana
It's filtered through a spark therefore it's ~MORE~ doesn't fly. Zendikar got filtered through Nissa's and Chandra's sparks, and that didn't bequeath any anti-Eldrazi properties either.

>I never said anti-Yawgmoth. Read it again, I said it was designed specifically to destroy someone "as powerful as" Yawgmoth. And it's pretty damn obvious that Yawgmoth was the most powerful character in the story.
And that doesn't lead into Yawgmoth being stronger than Emrakul('s true and complete eldrazi self). So the bar to destroy Yawgmoth can very much be lower than Emrakul (true).

>Again, because the mana in Innistrad is just mana and not an ultimate spark-powered death ray
The Legacy Weapon isn't either, and insinuating that it is without evidence is wankery. "Sparks were involved" is not evidence.

>It's filtered through a spark
Were did you take that from? We don't know if it was "filtered" or if it was the power from the spark itself with the pieces of the Weatherlight.

In either case it's abundantly clear that it wasn't just mana.

>Zendikar got filtered through Nissa's and Chandra's sparks
They are not even pre-Mending walkers and you're comparing their sparks with something that killed Yawgmoth?

>The Legacy Weapon isn't either
Are you retarded?

>In either case it's abundantly clear that it wasn't just mana.
[citation needed] beyond "sparks were involved therefore ~SOMETHING MORE~"

"Sparks were involved" is an oversimplification at best. You keep pushing because you can't admit you're wrong on something that's otherwise pretty obvious.

Neither of us have any proof for our arguments so it's just a matter of reasoning. However, you cannot give me any reasoning that the Legacy Weapon is more than the mana that makes it up.

>However, you cannot give me any reasoning that the Legacy Weapon is more than the mana that makes it up

>various magical devices adding oodles of mana to the concoction
Yes it's got a lot of mana. Not more than a plane, though.

So when you're playing limited, you're a planeswalker who ended up on a plane with no memories, trying to figure out what faction to end up in, finding that for instance there's a place for him in the mardu hordes because rwb is open, then using those memories of spells learned on that plane to battle other planeswalkers on it.
Which is why the most flavorful top down sets, like Innistrad, really make you feel like you're there, surrounded by spooky werewolves and vampires

Those artifacts didn't just fuel the Legacy Weapon with mana, they changed the nature of the weapon's power. The stones, for example, contained the accumulated power of two oldwalkers, something that had nothing to do with large quantities of mana. Unless Squee's toy had more mana than the Null Moon, there's absolutely no way it destroyed Yawgmoth with raw mana.

Emmy is nowhere near as powerful as Urza and Yawgmoth were. You have to understand that they were capable of warping reality, creating new planes and new life forms, and completely annihilating entire planes with no problem what so ever. Shit, they would have probably put a leash on Emmy and made her their pet bitch.

A player cannot attack themselves.

Why are people this dumb?

>The stones, for example, contained the accumulated power of two oldwalkers, something that had nothing to do with large quantities of mana.
On the contrary, that has a lot to do with large quantities of mana. The planeswalker spark is all about converting and amplifying the energy of the blind eternities. It's not some unquantifiable "bonus effect".
>Unless Squee's toy had more mana than the Null Moon
I would bet there's more in the Weatherlight, the Mightstone, and Weakstone.

>You have to understand that they were capable of warping reality, creating new planes and new life forms, and completely annihilating entire planes with no problem what so ever
The wank has reached a new level.
Creating new planes is an ordeal even for oldwalkers and it takes a lot out of them to do so.
Yawgmoth has never made a plane. (Rath makes itself out of flowstone over time.)
Neither Yawgmoth nor Urza could destroy a plane with ease. It would take tremendous effort on either's part.
Quit the bullshit.

Emrakul wasn't on Zendikar when Chandra nuked it.

>It would take a lot of effort from their part
This doesn't mean they can't do it at all.