Game Design General /gdg/

Here are today's topics:

1. Rules can be dry reading. Does fluff + lore grease the wheels of a game / RPG system for you when you're learning it, or does it get in the way of the information you're looking for? Which books handle this best?

2. Most RPG characters are loners before they join the group. Is it possible to include living, active family (perhaps even wife and kids) into character creation and not ruin the fantasy? Does being a hero mean being a solitary rolling stone type?

3. Also how's the game designing going? Any podcasts or resources you find interesting about game design?

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1d4chan.org/
imgur.com/a/7D6TT
discord.gg/WmbThSh
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/134UgMoKE9c9RrHL5hqicB5tEfNwbav5kUvzlXFLz1HI/edit?usp=sharing
roll20.net/
obsidianportal.com/
darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/fulllist.html
darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/
therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=21479
docs.google.com/document/d/1FXquCh4NZ74xGS_AmWzyItjuvtvDEwIcyqqOy6rvGE0/edit
mega.nz/#!xUsyVKJD!xkH3kJT7sT5zX7WGGgDF_7Ds2hw2hHe94jaFU8cHXr0
gamesprecipice.com/category/dimensions/
anydice.com/
anwu.org/games/dice_calc.html?N=2&X=6&c=-7
topps.diku.dk/torbenm/troll.msp
fnordistan.com/smallroller.html
gozzys.com/
donjon.bin.sh/
seventhsanctum.com/
ebon.pyorre.net/
henry-davis.com/MAPS/carto.html
topps.diku.dk/torbenm/maps.msp
www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/game-programming/polygon-map-generation/demo.html
mega.nz/#!ZUMAhQ4A!IETzo0d47KrCf-AdYMrld6H6AOh0KRijx2NHpvv0qNg
erebaltor.se/rickard/typography/
drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4qCWY8UnLrcVVVNWG5qUTUySjg&usp=sharing
davesmapper.com
designgames.simplecast.fm/
twitter.com/AnonBabble

1. I want enough lore to have context for the rules I'm reading. Make sure to make clear what is fluff and what is rules, though.

2. Of course you can have living family. Just don't force it on anyone hellbent on playing a loner and it's fine.

3. Last week I figured out what kind of game I want to make. Now I'm spinning my wheels, jotting a few notes down when I get an idea but no clear springboard for getting down to business.

Useful Links:
>Veeky Forums and /gdg/ specific
1d4chan.org/
imgur.com/a/7D6TT

>/gdg/ on Discord
Channel: #dev
discord.gg/WmbThSh

>Project List:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/134UgMoKE9c9RrHL5hqicB5tEfNwbav5kUvzlXFLz1HI/edit?usp=sharing

>Online Play:
roll20.net/
obsidianportal.com/

>RPG Stuff:
darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/fulllist.html
darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/
therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=21479
docs.google.com/document/d/1FXquCh4NZ74xGS_AmWzyItjuvtvDEwIcyqqOy6rvGE0/edit
mega.nz/#!xUsyVKJD!xkH3kJT7sT5zX7WGGgDF_7Ds2hw2hHe94jaFU8cHXr0
gamesprecipice.com/category/dimensions/

>Dice Rollers
anydice.com/
anwu.org/games/dice_calc.html?N=2&X=6&c=-7
topps.diku.dk/torbenm/troll.msp
fnordistan.com/smallroller.html

>Tools and Resources:
gozzys.com/
donjon.bin.sh/
seventhsanctum.com/
ebon.pyorre.net/
henry-davis.com/MAPS/carto.html
topps.diku.dk/torbenm/maps.msp
www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/game-programming/polygon-map-generation/demo.html
mega.nz/#!ZUMAhQ4A!IETzo0d47KrCf-AdYMrld6H6AOh0KRijx2NHpvv0qNg

>Design and Layout
erebaltor.se/rickard/typography/
drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4qCWY8UnLrcVVVNWG5qUTUySjg&usp=sharing
davesmapper.com

>1. Rules can be dry reading. Does fluff + lore grease the wheels of a game / RPG system for you when you're learning it, or does it get in the way of the information you're looking for? Which books handle this best?
Lore is needed to make the mechanics feel like anything. FATE shows what happens when the numbers are just numbers floating in a void; I've seen multiple FATE GMs come to the realization that they have no idea why they're assigning the difficulties that they are, other than that it had some relation to the skill of the character making the attempt.

>2. Most RPG characters are loners before they join the group. Is it possible to include living, active family (perhaps even wife and kids) into character creation and not ruin the fantasy? Does being a hero mean being a solitary rolling stone type?
I actively incentivize against loners where I can. People with families and real relationships are way healthier spiritually and literally more alive than people going it alone, in at least one of my projects, but I've also seen making them more easily persuaded ("someone who doesn't stand for something will fall for anything" and all that) or just having social ties be more powerful than an equivalent amount of resources spent on personal improvement.

>3. Also how's the game designing going? Any podcasts or resources you find interesting about game design?
Slowly but surely.

I like lore in its own section. I tend to make up my own anyway unless I find the lore to be really cool.

I'm not sure if they are. Yes. No.

Pretty good.

>Lore is needed to make the mechanics feel like anything

Yeah, that's why the GM creates lore. I feel this is an argument against loreless systems and that's just silly

"The GM can do X" is a bad reason to not do X if you are able. The whole reason RPG systems exist period is to save the GM effort, so the more effort you save the GM, the better. (All else being equal.)

There's design space for generic systems, but if you're not actually designing a generic system, there's no reason to skimp on lore and gamefeel.

>"The GM can do X" is a bad reason to not do X if you are able

No it's not, it's about creating the game that you want to create.

Also why disagree with me when you agree with me?

>Does fluff + lore grease the wheels of a game / RPG system
Absolutely, yes. I can't stand reading game books that are 100% rules. The rules should be embedded in and serve the world/genre they are creating in a complimentary way.

Eberron 3.5E did this very well.
Mage the Ascension did it awesomely.
Burning Wheel, FATE, Technoir and Dungeon World fail spectacularly.

I got a great sense of the world of Burning Wheel

Interesting. Would you like a page to be divided up with rules and story separate, or blended together seamlessly so that you learn rules in the context of the world?

Personally I'm designing a game handbook where rules come first and then story enhances it, and the world serves the system in a sense.

the games you mention as failing spectacularly are all, to my understanding, games which lack a specific setting. That said Burning Wheel (and maybe technoir, I don't know about that one) does a good job giving an impression of what the game world would be like in broad strokes even without any specifics, as someone who likes to world-build this is my favourite way for rpgs to do their settings. I can get how if you just want to play in an pre-made setting why you wouldn't like all of them though.

Here's what I've got so far, rules light system. I've abandoned it, do you think I should continue?

Fucked up

One of these days, I'll actually throw together my new ideas into something.

Would using a D12 to replace d2, d3, d4 and d6 work neatly or would it be a pain to keep track of that?

That was the idea that switched me over to D12's. Though, in practice, its a lot clunkier than you'd think. If its something you don't have to do often, it could work.

I'd playtest that stat system. It looks neat but it's also a mindfuck

>Any podcasts or resources you find interesting about game design?

I haven't seen this podcast mentioned before, but then I don't come to every thread.

The Design Games podcast is all about RPG design and theory. The two hosts actually have a background in design, but they tend to ramble on a bit. I still find it useful to listen to though.

designgames.simplecast.fm/

Anyone able to recommend a program for formatting all this stuff into a clean, readable pamphlet/book? I know the basic Word will suffice, but if there's anything more streamlined, integrated features, etc...Idk.

You talking about printing physical stuff or just basically layouts for a PDF?

>fluff in rulebooks
D&D's newer editions doesn't even do this in the player handbook.

I don't like it. But I'm always having the table world build the broad strokes with the gm does some for session prep and details being improvised during play. Player-made lore is the most engaging.

Preexisting settings always result in one or a few people being

interested and reading about it while everyone else doesn't really care. That can end up pretty janky.

Giving a sense of the sort of setting your rules work for is a good idea though. Recommended reading/media list for inspo.

1. The books who have interesting rules.
2. Yes. No. But you need to be wealthy enough to afford questing.
3. Tests are very encouraging. Shifting slowly into production phase. Commissioning page design elements. Time to set up a publishing company.

No, not really. Mixing fluff and crunch makes referencing during play harder.

Instead, you set up an interesting setting first and then the reader (prospective GM) will have scenes playing out before his mind's eye pop-up during first read of the crunch. Of course, if you don't have an interesting setting, this fails.

This vvv
Also, for this system you could work with "dice pool" difficulties, where you need to roll and succeed in a certain amount of dice (in my opinion better than only having normal/very hard rolls)

I know that Adobe Indesign can be used to make pro-stuff, I've already downloaded it but I haven't started tinkering with it...

I do think there needs to be a certain level of lore in a book, even if its just a description of what a skill does. Especially if its a more esoteric concept. Most people know what Acrobatics or Fireballs are like, but what if your system has stuff like Summon: Dreadblade or Lore: The Ancient Steppes?

Scribus is probably the go to free option, it just lacks the end-user friendliness as paid options

1. Both ways work, but for my personal system (which is universal, like every other system that appears in these threads), I prefer to lay the rules to the beginning of the book, so they don't get mixed up into the setting-texts.

For example, while I am planning to make the actual book with several settings (like, 5-7 probably, depending on how precise I get with the explanations), if the Vehicle rules were mixed into the one that uses them most, it would get confusing if you were trying to play another setting when you need to reference the rules over there.

And my design philosophy anyway lives and dies by the fact that my rules are "merely" 17-18 pages long. If they were longer, they would need to be integrated, in my opinion. But less than 20 pages is an understandable amount to expect someone to read, even if it's the dryest rules text.

2. I don't mind loners, due to the fact that I'm a real life loner, but having characters where there is more to work around with than their singular revenge against this one dude do work better.

3. My system-side is pretty much in the ready, I just need to write the settings. The settings are progressing, albeit a little slowly, because I finally managed to pry myself away from my computer and do something else than just design endlessly. I need a rest from designing, even though my brain doesn't want to admit it.

Because seriously, using 3-16 hours every day to design, no breaks, does take a toll. So I'm trying to limit myself a little. It's refreshing.

Mixing melee weapons and firearms is cool. How do you mechanically justify the coexistence of 20th century+ firearms technology and melee weapons being used at the same time?

a lot of fighting is taking place in dense urban environments so being able to fight in close quarters is useful

>20th century+ firearms technology
Expand on this.

this:
guns draw more attention, with enough cover it's easy to get in close quarters, no need to reload, easier to hit/kill once in range, can be used in crowded spaces, you don't have to worry ammunition or climatic conditions...