The GM assumes you'll get out of his pit trap exactly the way he'd have done it

>The GM assumes you'll get out of his pit trap exactly the way he'd have done it.
>Laughs when we couldn't figure out how to get out of his trap because there's only one specific way to get out.
>Not giving alternatives to exit the trap.

Railroad aside, what causes this dumb issue of only having one solution for things in campaigns? Lack of imagination? Poor planning? Wanting to feel superior to the players? Autism? It shouldn't be this hard to imagine how the scenario would look like from the players perspective.

A specific example of this occurring? Never seen it before.

Literally all of those things.
>the ball was glass and the key was inside! you had to examine the ball!
Fuck you Jordan.

Like, clear glass? If it's opaque glass and you had to handle it and hear the rattling that would almost make sense.

>It shouldn't be this hard to imagine how the scenario would look like from the players perspective.

And yet here you are, wholly incapable of imagining how the scenario would look from the DM's perspective.

>Railroad aside, what causes this dumb issue of only having one solution for things in campaigns?

>USE -> DEAD DUCK -> ON -> DRUNK CLOWN
>"I can't use these two things together!"
tl;dr treating RPGs as if they were adventure games

i had a dm once who threw my group into a room, with no doorhandles, no windows, unbreakable walls at level 1 and EXPECTED us to figure out the ordinary brass key we found off a dead corpse would magically open the doors, when nothing was appearing with detect magic.

so in my case im gonna say autism

It could be largely opaque and needed good scrutiny to notice something was inside, and completely engulged

Were there keyholes?

Players don't have access to as much information as the GM does.

It wasn't. It was clear. Our characters could see the key inside, he just didn't tell us.

Ideally, every discrete obstacle the GM places in their game should have at least two or three possible solutions, if not more. The point is to encourage general problem-solving, as this gives the players a sense of agency and control in the game, and a greater emotional stake in the action.

It's one thing to be presented with a prison guard, and be expected to slit his throat, and quite another to be presented with a prison guard, and decide to slit his throat on your own, when other options are available.

>EXPECTED us to figure out the ordinary brass key we found off a dead corpse
That's especially stupid considering whoever the corpse was couldn't figure it out either. How else would he have died in there?

Maybe he got shanked by a shit covered knife without a cleric to heal him?

He was a stupid idiot who who couldn't read the DM's mind.

That's why you should always point out why that can't possibly the solution loud and clear in character to the other players and make sure the GM hears you. It will guarantee that he realizes his brainfart and changes it.

>first game with a mate DM
>party gets drunk after doing our first quest
>wake up, hung over, lastnight was a blur, one of us has a key around his neck
>weve been hangovered, good plot hook as any for a lvl1 party
>go all around town retracing our steps, showing key to everyone
>man approaches us in a bar
>"or brave ones! I need your help!"
>several questions later he find out that he lost his prized hat in his grandfathers house. He would go back in but he can hear scary sound (he didn't see anything, just heard spooky sounds)
>my CG dorf tells him to grow a pair, its just a hat, if hes that concerned he should tell the guard, we are too busy doing something fun and solving our own mystery
>keep searching for clues of lastnight/key but it quickly becomes clear that he really wants us to help that guy as we cant find anything that might help us
>after exhausting all possibilities we give up and go to hat guys house
>the second we are inside the door disappeared and now we are in a monster filled trap maze
>some cool encounters but a little peeved we got railroaded from doing something we were far more interested in
>after the game the dm has a go at me, as the 'good' pc I should of forced the party to help the hat guy immediately
>the key was nothing and nothing special happened that night, we just went straight to sleep after we left the tavern

Like my uncle used to say - hole is a hole. Getting out the same way you got in is the most logical approach.

If you don't pack rope with hook, or hammer and nails or ability to levitate, well maybe you should have stacked Reflex save bonuses.

>Getting out the same way you got in

Digging?

>Our characters could see the key inside, he just didn't tell us.

>he doesn't come from down under
laughing_strayans.jpg

Being a dm is hard work and sometimes we make mistakes.

First of all, this
And if yes...
>hurr durr I'm stuck in a room with a key and key holes, DM never told us explicitly we might have to put keys in key holes, key is obviously not part of the solution.
If it exists, there's a reason for it

>Our characters could see the key inside, he just didn't tell us.
...

>If it exists, there's a reason for it
"I can't put these two things together!"

I didn't say every object goes with another
>player: I stick the key in the banana
>DM: the key punctures the banana but nothing else happens
>player: well this key and banana obviously are useless

I get what you're saying. And after a bit of trying I'd probably go "oh let's just try the key we found anyway, worst case scenario is it doesn't work,".

But why the fuck would someone die in a cell when they were holding the key? It's a dumb scenario if nothing else you have to admit.

> But why the fuck would someone die in a cell when they were holding the key?
Maybe he tried to open the door...

No I get that it is kinda silly for a key to a cell to be in that cell but certainly plausible, maybe he was fatally wounded when he removed the key from his rectum and couldn't make it to the door

Maybe the glass orb was in a ball jar

I used to think the autism thing was a joke, but are you being serious? A three year old could solve that scenario, and yet you actually, genuienly believe there is not one, but enough mongoloids unable to figure out that a key goes in a keyhole to form an entire party? Jesus Christ, it's like you people completely forgo all logic and look for reasons to think yourselves smarter than everyone else.

>join some shitty freeform rp on a byond text-based roleplaying game
>the premise for this server in particular is this dungeon quest thing where we're all adventurers exploring some mysterious tower that's appeared in the middle of town
>there's at least six of us ingame, the DM, and some people who're watching for now - it's looking vaguely promising
>do some rp in town for a bit, then everyone gathers at this tower - it's said to open every day at 12 or something like that
>so we enter
>first floor is largely empty, we descend down some stairs to a gigantic, octagonal room with some benches at the sides, and a giant zombie about 16 ft tall or something dumb.
>naturally, we fight it
>every single post is no-sell'd, and we try everything from fireballs, to turning its face into a pincushion with arrows, to trying to trip and cut through its neck
>nothing
>this goes on for at least an hour
>everyone's getting frustrated at this dumbass boss, and eventually we run out of ideas entirely
>the guy running the rp suddenly just flips his shit and has a DMPC leap in out of fucking nowhere and bisect the thing from top to bottom with his katana or whatever
>explains to us that we were supposed to lead the zombie back up the stairwell
>and that this would make it get stuck, therefore allowing us to kill it by stabbing it in the head
>mention that we'd stabbed it in the head before
>'but you were supposed to lead it up the stairwell'
>server just fucking empties out
>nobody joins again

Oh god, what kind of hideous mutants are those?! Kill them quickly, it is more merciful than living with such a misshapen spine!

sorry didnt realize this thread was still up

no

it was fucking autistic

he dm fiated it saying "ALL BRASS WILL OPEN THE DOOR TEEHEE" so my bards lute could open the door with the turn- things, idk what they are called

No its the Solution Fallacy.
If you create a problem and solution, you can see the steps you took to get there, and assume othera can follow the logic.

This isnt an issue with autism or bad dms, its just human nature, you see the path you took and it seems obvious.

The correct way is to put them in a scenarion and have an end result, e.g. Players trapped in pit, end result is get out. Then determine if the player actions are appropriate to getting out.

>No, no--dig *up*, stupid!

Wait there's an actual name to it?

I just treat it as "the players will always shit on your plan, so simply make sessions a series of problems linked by story." Dice rolls and such are to simply add suspense IMO. Feels pretty awesome that it's an actual thing.

>The correct way is to put them in a scenarion and have an end result, e.g. Players trapped in pit, end result is get out. Then determine if the player actions are appropriate to getting out.
I prefer having a solution of my own for the problem, but for it to be an optional one. Basically, the scenario is set up so that there's a definite way to beat it and it's not impossible, but open ended enough that the players can still come up with their own solution which I'll consider equally viable, probably more viable than how I designed the encounter.

Honestly this seems like basic GMing, I don't get why people don't do this normally.

If players can see the scenario from the DM's perspective, that's just plain metagaming right there.

Halfway through it, I thought there was going to be a big reveal how the ring is actually for the guy's door, and the strange spooky noises the dude heard from inside his home was your group who broke into his house because one of you thought he saw a pirate captain go in with a chest full of gold, and the key dude just grabbed the first key he saw inside, thinking it must be for the chest.

No idea how this could've been established during the game (maybe a neighbour), but that's the way I saw this going.

I don't understand your solution. Are you saying that most DM's assume the players will work backwards, and they should instead make sure to engineer a solution?

I'm going to be honest, I sometimes do this, though just for fun.

>PCs in a dungeon
>Have managed to commandeer a Shield Guardian by acquiring its control talisman.
>They come to a cell in the dungeon with someone on the inside
>Instantly start debating ideas as to how to get the door open
>"Do you have a crow bar? Hey, didn't you have some sort of explosive alchemical thing? Actually, does anyone have any Acid? Oh I know! We could tell the iron giant to knock the door down!"
>4 minutes in of intense debate of whether or not the door is worth using up their acid, or whether the iron giant could kill the person on the other side if it just knocked the door in I tell them that on closer inspection, the "lock" on this cell is quite simple. It's just a rusty piece of metal that is inaccessible from the other side.

He's saying that it's hard for one to understand why others can't see their exact line of thinking. DM's shouldn't have a prepared solution in mind, because it's unlikely the players will come to that exact conclusion. Instead they should be prepared for anything the players come up with, assuming it's within reason for the situation.

That makes sense. But what if it's a riddle, or a 'fill in the blank in a phrase' situation?

riddles can be the worst of this in TRPGs, especially if they rely on obtuse and vague wording, and doubly so if they've been cooked up by the DM themselves.
they very often end in a complete snorefest where the players have no fucking clue what this cunt is on about, or with one player instantly getting it because he's heard this one before.
that, or 'i roll to solve the riddle'

bumping because this is a necessary discussion

Videogames.
Of the adventure/quest genre, you know, in which you gather items and then have to figure out the only one exact way to apply them?
It's that mentality.

>Me
I have always disliked riddles for the sake of, it not being a character skill, trait, ability or knowledge that solves it, but the Players. While that does sound obtuse as the player makes all the decisions for their character, there is a difference, because riddles are a problem of logic, your character doesnt exist so their logic isnyour logic, even if you know the answer, it may not make sense for any of the characters to know.

For example, Trevor is a smart person, but they are playing a dumb character, Trevor knows the answer to the puzzle but his character wouldnt, so which is the appropriate response, Trevor says nothing and the puzzle doesnt get solved, Trevor says the answer but someone elses character does it, or Trevor comes up with a reason for his character to know it even if he wouldn't have earlier.

For me the 3rd is the correct response, as many times you dont know the exact extent of someones knowledge and sometimes a person who you may think is stupid, may have come across it before.

As an example I had a coworker who was not a very smart person, but whem there was a problem he knew what to do bexause he had those before. So DMs should be prepared to offer leeway to the characters in allowing them to know if the player also knows.

Always have at LEAST one solution to a puzzle, problem, moral dilemma, etc in mind.

Always be flexible and work with other solutions when the party thinks of them instead, unless you have a sincere reason to think it shouldn't work.

A lot of people are bad at self-honesty. A lot of people honestly do not stop and ask themselves if the proposed solution is actually flawed, or if they're just coming up with excuses to thwart the solution they didn't think of.

>
>I have always disliked riddles for the sake of, it not being a character skill, trait, ability or knowledge that solves it, but the Players.

I've always hated them too.

The campaign I'm running for friends I have an encounter designed to kind if make fun of the popularity of riddles.
A bridge troll has run out of riddles to ask, so the players need to find or make some up. They don't even have to make sense, really.
The only incorrect answer is if they try and reference The Hobbit, "What have I got in my pockets?", where the troll will respond "That's a question, not a riddle!"

>Poor planning?
I don't think it's this. The easiest to prepare kind of trap or riddle is the one where you don't prepare a solution at all. Just let the players come up with some and pick whatever you like most. Really easy and works pretty well. Just don't tell the players.

Nice pasta here

Hey can I get a sauce on this, image search avails me nothing.

>Buttered Toast

Yes.

Also if the DM only allows ONE way to solve a problem, it should be writing shitty novels instead of being a DM.

>party is monks
>they simply run up the wall

Or

>Party has access to a caster with fly
>Up he goes with the rope

Or

>Someone in the party has dungeon deliver so they never fell in

>>Someone in the party has dungeon deliver so they just ordered a rope and grappling hook from the Amazons to be delivered by ImpEX

More like they were like 'watch out guys theres a pit trap there' 'oh ok' and a crisis was averted.

I like the way you think but unfortunately, in an age where everyone is accusing one another of being THAT GUY, special snowflake, metagaming, etc. the third approach is just going to be met with "YOUR CHARACTER HAS X INT SO YOU STARE AT YOUR FEET FAGGOT!"

Granted, this is an issue with shitty people in general but if we're talking about a GM who laughs at the party for not figuring out the obvious solution, we're probably talking about someone who doesn't know how to give leeway towards his players.

>pasta
i guess i have posted this story a couple of times before - but the last time i did was months back
it's a good example of only-one-solution thinking, at least

i'd go for at least trying to come up with three or so solutions to a puzzle you're planning
if nothing else it lets you review your encounter and how flexible it is.

kek
speaking of riddles, i wonder if the riddle autist is still around

take a closer look at the spelling in

>>It shouldn't be this hard to imagine how the scenario would look like from the players perspective.
>And yet here you are, wholly incapable of imagining how the scenario would look from the DM's perspective.
This.
At any point, assuming that another party can easily see your perspective and will see your perspective is a great first step towards frustration.
However, it is the DM's roll to be aware when their perspective is not being seen correctly, or as intended, and take steps to clarify the issue.

But yeah, having one and only one possible solution to any encounter is just stupid.

>The correct way is to put them in a scenario and have an end result, e.g. Players trapped in pit, end result is get out. Then determine if the player actions are appropriate to getting out.
This is good, but I do it a bit differently. Any encounter the players come across I generate 9 responses, one for each alignment. (I use alignments just as a general guideline, not because alignments matter.) True neutral is always if the players simply ignore the encounter whereas chaotic evil is if they just fuck shit up in response to the encounter.
It gives me a good range of responses and possible solutions to the encounter for me to reference when the players actually implement a solution.

This needs to be an 80s commercial.

>Finely dressed merchant steps to the screen
>"Has this ever happened to you?"
>Cut to shot of textbook group of dwarf, elf, human and halfling in a pit
>Dwarf: "Oy ye clumsy pointy eared fool! Ya've done and landed us in a hole! Someone get the grappling hook."
>Human: "Not today, I'm afraid my short stock friend. It would appear a grappling hook was not in the budget."
>Halfling: "What? Then how can we possibly get out?"
>Elf: "Gg guys, guess it's time to get new character sheets."
>Narrator from earlier steps into the shot next to the four adventurers
>Narrator: "Let's not be so hasty."
>Adventurers in Unison: "Wow! It's Stan, from StanCo's Dungeon Delivery Service!"
>Stan: "Ha,ha,ha! That's right my friends, and I'm here to tell you about fantastic opportunities that await you with StanCo's Dungeon Delivery Service!"
>Halfling: "Gee Mr. Stan, that does sound swell, but I don't think we have much of a chance to engage any of your amazing offers from the bottom of this pit!"
>Stan: "I'm glad you pointed that out. For you see, the StanCo Delivery Service knows no bounds! Isn't that right, Phil?"
>Camera pans up, and there is a sharply dressed kobold throwing down a rope
>Kobold: "Ding dong, ImpEX calling!"
>Stan: "That's right! Due to our recent partnership with ImpEX, StanCo can now deliver to you wherever you are! Be that in the comfort of your home, the court of a noble you're visiting on some business, the lair of an evil wizard, or even the bottom of an unfortunate pit! With StanCo-"
>Stan grabs the rope and the screen has a slide transition to him stepping up to the edge of the pit where all the adventurers are looking around amazed
>Stan: "-Anything is possible!"
>Stan winks into the camera and quickly a disclaimer is uttered: "ImpEX is a subdivision of HexCorp. Usage of StanCo's Dungeon Delivery means usage of ImpEX and as such elligibility to mandatory conscription into the Hextor's legion."

world's thickness is not infinite, you know
and if you're playing a dwarf, it's faster to dig to Australia, than climb with your short body and short legs

>World's thickness is not infinite
Depends on setting really.

In the game I'm playing, there was a being permanently buried beneath the material plane by the gods, in the sense that it could crawl its way out, but it was put at the bottom, and there's an infinite distance between it and anything else of note.

Granted, a Spelljammer understanding of the material plane would be arguably better in some ways, but it's not definitive. And with magic, you can have both.

This thread just makes me feel good about being an improv DM.

>create problems, but not solutions
>create multiple possible solutions as players examine situations, or simply let them brute force it
>all actions have consequences, determined by luck rolls

And that's how two thirds of my party almost got sold into slavery. (I was hoping for pirates, personally, not slavers.)

>After days of hard journey through the dark dungeon, you have finally found a promising exit.
>As you approach the great door, suddenly a deep, rich voice speaks to you:
>"You must gather your venture before partying forth"

Fund it

You can't use Stan and have such little hand waving.

>Adventurers aimed to the teeth with blades run into skeletons
>They whack at them impotently but their swings just go between the ribs and the skeletons laugh
>Dwarf: "Argh. The one day ta listen to ye pipsquek! I knew I shouldn'ta got rid of me hammer. Where am I gonna find me a new one now?"
>Stan leans into the shot and then steps in full body
>Stan: "Did someone say, hammer?"
>Group: "How amazing! That's Stan from StanCo's Dungeon Delivery Service!"
>Stan: "Ha,ha,ha! That's right folks. And I see you've landed in something of a pickle. All too often you can run into situations when you need that crucial edge, only the beautiful wonder and magic of capitalism can solve. Indeed these fearsome skeletons could only be vanquished by weapons that bludgeon, crack and smash!"
>Human: "That's all well and right my good man, but where could a humble yet strapping and market tested group such as hours acquire such tools in the kind of scrap we're stuck in?"
>Stan laughs and pats him on the back: "Well that's one hell of a question. Phil?"
>Sharp Kobold waddles into shot and hands Phil an impressive looking mace
>Stan: "Thank you Phil! Why, with hardworking and fast delivery men of ImpEX like Phil over here of course! Whether through wind, rain, cloudkill or impending apocalypse, StanCo's Dungeon Delivery Service always delivers!"
>Stan throws the mace at the skeletons who keel over like bowling pins, then turns back to the camera and flashes a grin
>Disclaimer: "ImpEX delivery personel may not engage to aid customers in combat. If they do, customer safety is not assured. ImpEX and HexCorp take no responsibility for customer injury or death; accidental or otherwise. No refunds."

If I'd have included the appropriate amount of hand waving, I'd have reached the character limit by "Has this even happened to you?"
I thought letting the educated audience fill in the rest.

Same, though I'm not sure if it's entirely my fault.

>players encounter a sturdy looking door
>immidiately see if the hinges are on their side
>they aren't
>debate for a couple minutes before stoneshaping the wall away from its hinges
>they grab the handle to pull it away from the wall
>"you notice the door is unlocked as you grab the handle"