Warmachine Officially Dead. DC left because there was no viable long term plan for Warmachine and Hordes. MK3 rushed 6 months early to avoid total collapse of cash flow during summer months.:^)
Between banishing ward, sacred ward, and spell ward most of the list can't be targeted by enemy spells. On feat turn zephyr can be used before a charge to get some extra inches in, which is nice. Risen can be used for sacrificial lamb on the two jacks if it's convenient.
Easton Morris
All aboard the Doom Train? Do you guys even play Warmachine anymore or is it just 24 hours of bitching and moaning?
Lucas Wood
Still going strong at my FLGS. I don't know why Veeky Forums is so doom and gloom.
Parker Hughes
I'm sure the headline is bait, but I wanna ask anyway if it's true, or if there's any basis for the claims?
I do see a lot of doom and gloom both here and out in the wild. At big cons so far the competitive community is split between leaving the game and continuing to play it. Leavers include Jordan Nach and Brian White (!) as of GenCon. Chiriboga seemed unhappy too but who knows.
Julian Hall
That smiley means facetious trolling.
That reaction means there are enough people that actually think that to make it plausible.
....and that makes me sad. I know there is a lot of salt going around, but I figured it was isolated to smaller pockets here and there in my area.
I'm wondering how PP will adapt or adopt to the rumbling sentiments of balance and malaise.
Austin Ward
Sure the face meant trolling but that doesn't make it clear which parts, if any, we're accurate.
And yeah it's a pretty widespread feeling. I dunno if this is still true but about a month ago I was told that literally every regular player in the Omaha area had straight up stopped playing. Something like 20-30 local guys, some of which were tourney regulars. Just a small sample but still.
Colton Sanders
Pardon my dumb, but who was DC again? I have been out of the community for a bit.
Adam Stewart
I left after a group of competitive players swept through our region (CA Bay Area). For a lot of us more casual players who had been playing a long time, they were pretty rude, and games became nitpick fights over rules. Just got tiring. Some have gone back, others like me moved on to other games.
Ian White
Fuck man,you got me there
Xavier Jones
David Carl. Head designers.
The claim hits the people in the middle. The super casual don't care, they just want to play and don't care. The Super competitive own every faction and will hop as necessary. The people in the middle who is tactically minded to care about quality, but casual enough that they don't want to play the same deadly combo over and over again for practice just fucking hate it.
I'm in the middle band and I'm wishing that I was naive enough to not understand the math and design imbalance, because I don't want to turn this game into work.
Jordan Lee
You know guild ball is a fantastic alternative
Logan Diaz
I'm curious to see how long GB can last. As they add more and more models, the things are gonna get harder and harder to balance since there's no point levels in that game.
I'm predicting that an upgrade system like X Wing or Malifaux system will show up sooner or later.
Jack Williams
They are capping models to teams. They may add more if they add more archetypes...but they plan on avoiding bloat.
Michael Martin
I've pretty much stopped playing after a few months of mk3. Tried playing Skorne still and got my shit pushed in worse than in mk2. Switched to Menoth, but it was super boring. None of the other armies really interest me either, so I've more or less moved on. If they ever give Skorne a proper errata, I might come back. But after playing them since mk1 and being kicked in the balls twice, I think I might just be done.
Luis Bailey
Avatar is ready. Smithe thy heathens.
Jayden Thomas
>warmachine is barely played >lets all jump to a game that is even more rare
Easton Rodriguez
With more pronounced balance issues due to the lack of diversity.
Lucas Baker
The only games other than ccgs played at my flgs are warmachine and xwing, and warmachine is the bigger of the two. There used to be heroclix but I haven't seen that in a year. There's like 3 boxes of Guildhall stuff no one buys, while warmachine has a wall dedicated to it.
Hell, only other thing that gets played is me and a friend starting a bloodbowl league.
David Cox
Like every game, it needs to be introduced. It's not like steamforged doesn't everything free so you can shill with no financial burden.
Just saying.
Guild Ball General?
Aiden Garcia
Probably the only balance issues plaguing GB atm are Fillet,Obulous and Avarice and Greede.
That's way better than what's going o in WMH right now where a lot of in faction stuff is gasping for air.
Cameron Bell
Woah, woah, I've been out of the loop since like 3 weeks before mk3 dropped back in june or whenever it was
Has shit been happening since then? Major factional imbalances, or what?
Tyler Fisher
Nothing really new. Just the same people on the net shouting. Next week it will be a new problem with the game.
Kevin Sanders
It's been an escalation of checks against the new edition that has caused so much grumbling.
1. mkiii gets announced. From the get go, PP makes statements that this has been in play test for 3 years and balance will be better than ever with more inflated point system allowing for more minute things. Things are ok for now.
2. Insiders start coming out that detail abilities like power up which makes the community happy. This is instantly ruined by Insiders by Jason Soles since EVERY insider he does, he mentions almost predominantly nerfs or talk about buffs on things that no one gives a shit. This is also compounded by PP's oddly secretive responses to concerns that just keeps on repeating that they have been playtested for 3 years and everything will be fine.
3. LnL happens. The mkiii release happens and immediately people find mistakes. The key note presentation for LnL is fucking awful, and themelists that were mentioned won't even be released until December. People definitely get the impression that the entire thing is handled very poorly and rushed.
4. Day 1 problems emerge. Sloan can do a turn one deployment zone shooting, Madrak 2 being weird in interaction for shunting throws. People have made up their minds on top tier for the new edition already and both side of the balance curve has been touched in bad ways. Caine 2 got stronger for some reason even though he didn't need it. Madrak 1 got horrendously worse when he needed buffs while faction's arguably best non-theme-force warlock, Madrak 2 got insanely strong. WGRC became ridiculously efficient compared to every shooting unit in the game.
5. Rule question regarding flank comes up, since as written then, you cannot get the flank/gang damage bonus if the target is knocked down or stationary. It is ruled that it's gonna worked that way. People are outraged and ask if that's the intent, which PP says it's playtested that way, which is an obvious and blatant lie. People are going insane now
cont
Jose Diaz
6. At this time, steamroller is released and the new scenarios, especially Line Breaker combined with premeasuring gunline makes the matches even more lopsided than usual. Melee brick armies just cannot compete.
7. Simultaneously Hordes have been hit with several nerfs across the board. Beasts frequently lost fury/threshold/fury management and animi are extremely limited in both quantity and applications now. combined with still higher cost against the jacks, Hordes players, especially Skorne, are livid. The insiders all mentioned making infantry options stronger for the hordes factions, but there has been no noticeable or any increase in infantry output.
8. Warroom 2 is still warroom and PP compounds the issue even further with release of King Maker theme force which is not only different from warroom, but also different from developer's notes. >Rangers were mentioned by soles and in the WR, but not in the NQ theme.
So, yeah, PP has basically done nothing but stumble through the mkiii release and haven't done anything other than limited damage control.
Jacob Lewis
Oh, hah. Skorne actually did end up getting fucking nothing?
I remember seeing all those beautiful insiders. "X is about Y and Z. So here is how we nerfed Y and Z! Don't worry though, this side unit focusing around P got buffed or something, so it's ok"
Sounds like 'playtesting' years of mk2 and then making changes based off that...and not testing the new changes.
Blake Smith
PP has no idea what they are doing with Skorne and has admitted it at this point.
Skorne is a hodgepodge of design philosophies that never comes together.
Brody Young
Skorne got worse, if you can believe it. Their casters didn't get noticeably stronger while their beasts and heavy infantry were nerfed heavily. They're basically bottom of the pile.
Christian Rivera
Skorne in Mk3 as summarized by user:
>Fury Management Condition on beasthandlers got nerfed so there is less fury management Enrage no longer gives free charges and Skorne now has no access to free charges Titans had their fury reduced
>Defensive stats Titans had their def reduced by 2 Cataphracts lost 3 boxes
>Animus Far Strike became self only Fatewalker got worse Krea bubble lost its Arm bonus Skorne gained Spiny Growth but Spiny Growth became self only Sentry lost Locker
Losing theme forces hurt Cataphract play or usage Morg2 got his feat back but lost a few rules (like immunity to CMA/CRA) and traded out Silence of Death (which got buffed in Mk3) for a shitty nuke Makeda1 randomly lost Combo-Strike, Defender's Ward and traded Savagery for Quicken Makeda2 lost Road to War and Leash So now only Mak1/Morg1/Xerxis2 can buff speed Spell slave can't cast upkeeps anymore so Marketh is now pretty costly for something of debatable use Xerxis1 lost Inhospitable Ground for Rift Mobility went up in cost which hurts Xerxis2's gameplay Croak raiders got nerfed Gators got nerfed Archidon is shit Rhinodon is shit Bog Trog Ambushers got nerfed Flank and Gang no longer work on Stationary/Knocked Down targets Hakaar doesn't count as an Ancestral Guardian anymore so Zaal can't Direct Spirits to him Zaal traded Invioable Resolve for a spell that makes models undead (hence no longer producing souls for him/his guardians)
There's tons more and PP even admitted in an AMA they basically have no idea what they are doing with Skorne.
Connor Clark
WARMACHINE/HORDES FACTION POWER RANKING
>God (S tier) Cygnar, Khador
>Good (A tier) Retribution, Circle
>Mid-High (B tier) Mercs, Minions, Convergence
>Mid (C tier) Menoth, Trolls, Legion
>Mid-Low (D tier) Cryx
>Low (E tier) Skorne
Asher Sanders
Factually Accurate Warmahordes Power Rankings:
Top >Cygnar >Khador >Ret
Mid >Everyone else but Cryx and Skorne
Low >Cryx
Skorne >Skorne
William Rogers
Also the recent news of PP trying to be big damn heroes, and messing with online sales to try and help B&M stores.
I know they love to fire and replace people there, but this last year or so it's really felt like a pod person version of the company I once kind of liked.
Joseph Ramirez
Pretty much agree on the same thing.
Jackson Wilson
They did errata the flank thing
Levi Sullivan
Got the cryx starter.
What else should I grab? Ive read bane thralls are good half the time, and theyre bad the other half.
Satyxis pirates a yes?
Deathjack, a reaper, and nightmare are in my list right now.
Ian Kelly
Seetheer(s) & DJ are solid choices. There's no such thing as Bane Thralls anymore, they are Bane Warriors now. And most recommend for them come from Mk2. Satyrix are still decent.
Joshua Harris
Unfortunate that they claimed it was working as intended before said errata.
Yeah, but I'll give some respect for being able to admit being wrong in a timely manner.
Hudson Sanchez
>being able to admit being wrong
It wasn't "admitting to being wrong" as much as it was trying to appease everyone so they'd stop riding PP's ass until it was red and raw.
Easton Rodriguez
Bane warriors ain't bad but you should only really take them with casters who can deliver them other wise they will just get shot to bits. Satyxis raiders are probably the best unit in Cryx atm, mostly because they are can be delivered fairly easily. Take the UA. Basically Cryx's living troops are the better ones (mostly) at the moment. Seethers are the same deal as Bane warriors, only take them if you can deliver it without it getting shot to death. Also the Seether/Inflictor kit should be out soon/now so maybe magnetise it. Barathrum is solid and a nice model. Malice is almost certainly more worthwhile than a 2nd reaper. Also the Stalker is great, if you ever met Raeks in Mk2, its like that but better. They are the perfect scalpel and very hard to stop. Warwitches are still good, I'd consider a machine wraith or two.
Dylan Nguyen
And also going out and actually playtesting it for a few days I'd guess...
Easton Torres
Hmmm I got a bit of inside info of sorts.
>Warmachine Officially Dead. Obviously not. Still steam powering this mini's train.
>DC left because there was no viable long term plan for Warmachine and Hordes. Nope! Creative differences were cited and the break was cordial and professional. Lemme put it this way, Management at PP does not equate to super happy fun times. I don't know exactly WHY DC left, but I do know it's not some rage-quit on the part of DC like some people want to make it out to be.
>MK3 rushed 6 months early to avoid total collapse of cash flow during summer months. Sorta? I mean, the way things were handled were a bit uneven, that much is clear from the end product we have today, but purchasing was down for PP product. New stuff was being purchased, but pessimistic distributors and B&M meant that initial sales for new product were not meeting initial estimates.
>:^) Yeah... Troll.
Adam Stewart
DCs break was not as civil as you're laying it out to be. I mean, David was professional, but PP management not so much.
Mk III proves DC was right. Going down the tubes, worst I've felt about the game and company since Mark 1.
Chase Myers
Did Ret receive nerfs or buffs?
Nolan Martin
Massive buffs.
Power Up and the change to Empower (formerly Power Booster) let them do a lot more with their jacks than they could before.
Dawnguard Sentinels got buffed, and are now one of the premier heavy infantry.
The shift towards larger battle groups and away from stealth, plus pre-measuring, has made Stormfall Archers and MHSF better.
Ossyan picked up Deadeye, which makes him considerably better at running shooting units (which also got better to to other changes).
Vyros 2 got hit by the nerf to Synergy, but is still very playable.
Vyros 1 got buffed with a new feat and Bird's Eye getting changed.
Thyron is pretty shit, Ellowyur Swordsmen are shit, and MHI are shit, which is a lot fewer stinkers than most factions.
Jeremiah Stewart
>DC left because there was no viable long term plan for Warmachine and Hordes. >Nope! Creative differences were cited and the break was cordial and professional. Lemme put it this way, Management at PP does not equate to super happy fun times. I don't know exactly WHY DC left, but I do know it's not some rage-quit on the part of DC like some people want to make it out to be.
You really must be some sort of insider with PP, because that's the exact sort of "everything is great, nothing is wrong!" canned response that I've come to expect from them.
More on topic, however, a handful of my old WarmaHordes friends are all thinking of getting back into the game, and have started to ask me if I want to as well. Currently torn between getting the Skorne battlebox and embracing everyone stepping on my balls constantly, since they were/are my main faction, or if I want to switch it up with Retribution, since I like the sound of Helena and already have some Ret stuff kicking around as well. Currently have a banshee, phoenix, Imperatus, a chimera, and an aspis as far as warjacks go.
Is Darius any good? If he is, I'd be willing to sell of my Ret stuff and keep my small Cygnar jack force. Otherwise I'd probably reverse that, sell my Cygnar off, and focus on Retribution and Skorne I already know that the Skorne isn't going to sell, so that's not even a consideration at this point.
Christopher Torres
I'm pretty new but how is Protectorate of "Mark 2 jack faction" not helped overwhelmingly by power up. The nerf to choir also meant that most of the heavies got relatively cheaper. I mean, the crusader is cheaper that quite a few lights, but still hits like a truck and has a lot of staying power to boot. The turd polishers still make Menite jacks arguably some of the best in the game, and in Warmahordes 3.0: Jacks are OP edition, I feel like it should be: Cygnar, Khador Menoth, Ret (no order) Other shit that doesnt matter.
Alexander Price
Loss of accuracy wasn't exactly made up Large number of mainstay models got worse
Its not that Menoth is bad - its just that they aren't amazing. And when everyone gets better at doing your schtick - you don't really excel at it as much.
Leo Collins
They super isolated the denial elements, however.
They're the only faction that can consistently deal with upkeeps in all their pairings.
Ian Anderson
I'd argue that Convergence is up top as well.
Alexander Ross
What store was this at?
Aiden Murphy
Thank you for the update!
Benjamin Ortiz
The rumor goes that DC left because they refused to tell him anything, like the fact that MK3 was in the works, for example.
Thomas Clark
>:^) Wait, you were joking?
Hudson Martinez
>I'm wondering how PP will adapt or adopt to the rumbling sentiments of balance and malaise. Would be nice if they did anything at all. They've been awfully quiet aside from those terrible Insiders that they deem their playerbase worth reading.
Austin Miller
The problem they have is that they can't address players too much, because that will just open the floodgates.
I also wonder if their social media coordinator didn't finally manage to stick them in a room and explain to them that they have no fucking clue how to talk to people or write for an audience.
Jaxon Jackson
>Would be nice if they did anything at all. They've been awfully quiet aside from those terrible Insiders that they deem their playerbase worth reading.
Soles did that one AMA. >Skorne confuses us from a design standpoint, our jobs are hard, the Hoskune lore makes them too difficult to design for. Shit, I can think of a billion starting points they could look at, and try to begin balancing.
Anthony Phillips
Man, I don't trust anything Soles says anymore, positive or negative.
The man has such an amazing talent for fucking up what he wants to say so that people take it exactly the wrong way.
Joseph Ramirez
Well, if we're talking about the posters in the general forums. Those are the peopel that are bitching about everything and anything. The game kind of hit that point where its big enough to where the forums are now like WoW, LoL, or other multiplayer video game forums. You got a lot of people just shouting that anything that has the chance of beating something is OP. The community in the general forums is toxic so I don't blame them for not wanting to bring them into the fold.
They did dial back the gang/flank thing. Someone did mention that one of the reasons it was changed to engaging/engaged was cause some really obscure thing with eDenny and they wanted to close that. That was mostly drowned out though from people yelling memes of designspace etc.
Gabriel Brooks
If only. They were basically like "Oh this is working as intended. You simply cannot comprehend the nuances of the rules we playtested for 30 years. But if you dirty peasants must absolutely have it that way we shall appease your base wishes."
At least that's how it came across.
Josiah Jenkins
>Their casters didn't get noticeably stronger And some even got massively worse. Ironically at the end of Mk2, Morg2 was playable. Not any longer though.
Matthew Kelly
My favorite is the thread with the guy complaining that he hates the fact that some things are better taken with some casters.
Yea, see, their ability to actually interact with people is terrible. Hungerford was again the only one of the devs who addressed the issue at hand without sounding exactly like that.
Did you see the troll list today?
Adrian Baker
>Flank and Gang no longer work on Stationary/Knocked Down targets >Hakaar doesn't count as an Ancestral Guardian anymore so Zaal can't Direct Spirits to him Well this got changed eventually.
Colton Brown
Ret seems pretty nice. Darius also, but he can't play into everything. Keep away from Skorne.
Oliver White
The problem is that PP desperately wants Skorne to be a counter punch faction, so very, very bad.
And it's such a terrible design for a faction, competitively. The very nature of the tactic requires you to depend on your opponent to do things. Your opponent isn't going to do those things unless you force him too.
If you have the tools to force your opponent to do things, you are no longer a counter punch faction.
William Carter
>My favorite is the thread with the guy complaining that he hates the fact that some things are better taken with some casters. I saw that and it gave me a good chuckle.
They can sit and fix every preceived problem that comes up with the game, but the way this works now, is they'll find a new thing the next day to complain about.
Angel Roberts
>They did dial back the gang/flank thing. Someone did mention that one of the reasons it was changed to engaging/engaged was cause some really obscure thing with eDenny and they wanted to close that. That was mostly drowned out though from people yelling memes of designspace etc.
That wouldn't have been an issue if they had taken the 5 minutes to look at the gang/knockdown flank/stationary combos on offending models. Because they didn't, the whole "we've been playtesting for 3 years already to really balance everything and iron out shitty rules interactions" just looks like a fat load of shit, and makes the edition look rushed even if it wasn't. That alone opens them up to all sorts of mockery, and makes us wonder what else we shouldn't take at face value from them.
They have an infernal currently rechecking the ruling on Zaal's "direct spirits" rule and how it interacts with soul taker. It's been under review since early last week. God I hope they don't mess this one up, too. It's not like Skorne needs to take any more lumps than it has already.
Liam Carter
Okay, let me rephrase: It would be nice if anyone BUT Soles actually talked to the community. Hell, let the janitor do it.
Brayden Perez
>Did you see the troll list today? Do I really want to?
>Hungerford Yeah, he's really hard to dislike. Maybe they should let him handle more of their PR. Then again, a single person can only do so much.
Levi Foster
I mean, PP's stance on the whole thing is the right choice. Just let it happen in the forums, but never respond to it. If people make good points, you can take and use them(A lot of the changes in MK3 seem to have come from this, for example). If they're idiots, then you just ignore them.
Their response to the forums is fine as is. If they could just nail their ability to talk to the community, they'd be a lot better off.
Like, for all it's flaws, I'd still argue that Mk3 is one of the best balanced wargames on the market at the moment, both in terms of variety and in relative power levels. Even the gap between the top factions and Skorne is way smaller than some of the gaps between the top and midline factions in other games.
I ultimately think that the balance changes they make will be generally good. It's just their responses and actions that get so dumb.
Connor Miller
>Hell, let the janitor do it. Imagine being a janitor paid to clean up after people both offline and online.
I will give the article credit though. Unlike a lot of the other Insiders with lists in them, this one doesn't take a tactical tone in it, so it actually feels more like a themed/fun list. But it's pretty bad.
Aaron Perry
It's more like the playtested once a week for 3 years and had round table discussions on things. They weren't burning the oil on it for 3 years straight. But when it is done that way where its multitasked, stuff falls through. However a simple beta ruleset would have gotten a lot of bugs. Problem is they get a lot responses like yours of just being mad on any and every topic.
Juan Morales
You weren't kidding. That's pretty horrible.
Wyatt Jackson
I agree with all that. It could also be that cause of how the forums blow up over everything that a slight fuck that Infinity or Wyrd would get away with, gets compounded.
Sebastian Brown
I'm sure their very real issue with things like gang/flank is that they were playing as intended, instead of considering the rules as newly written.
And yea, they got burned pretty bad in the Mk2 open playtest, so it's understandable why they didn't do it again.
My problem is that most of this year is basically an open playtest, especially if they make balance changes at the end of the year.
And that's fine, because it's ultimately good for the game, but they need to talk about this.
Hungerford is the only one who's addressed that topic as well.
Josiah Smith
The thing I point out to people all the time about the Warmahordes forums is that when people bring shit up there, they're not trying to cheat.
You see people getting autistic in the rules forums over wording, for example, but those people aren't going to a tourney and trying to win with it. They're just trying to get it fixed, so ultimately they're just trying to clean up the game.
Gabriel Reyes
And again, in the man's defense, it's clearly a list he has his own personal fluff for, rather than him trying to justify it's power on the table.
Like, I feel like a lot of these lists are to try and bring the focus more towards modeling, painting, and "your dudes" kind of stuff, which is fine, but the way they write the articles needs to better reflect that idea.
Some pictures of the army, maybe a little fluff blurb, shit like that would make the tone carry so much better.
Jayden Murphy
>And yea, they got burned pretty bad in the Mk2 open playtest, so it's understandable why they didn't do it again. That's like writing a shitty job application, getting rejected and concluding that the only thing you can do is become a NEET.
Daniel Gray
I mean, they struggled with the balance issues of the Mk2 playtest through the entirety of Mk2.
Like, the day before Mk3 dropped, some of the shit that happened in that playtest will still problems in the game.
Benjamin Ramirez
>responses like yours of just being mad on any and every topic.
Some of the blowup could be avoided in part if PP changed how they say to the community.
When they say that Mk3 is meant in part to simplify rules, reduce rule clutter, and make interactions of rules easier to understand, then botch a rule, they'd get less shit if they just said "whoops, that's one that slipped by, better correct that!" Instead, they tried to play the "working as intended, nothing to see here" card, which needlessly stirred the hornet nest.
One aspect of Warmachine/Hordes that I think contributes to blow ups over small things vs Infinity/Malifaux is that WarmaHordes has a far more competitively-minded playerbase, and they might take rules, model performance, and faction balance far more seriously than the casual player might.
On that note, similar to overly competitive players more or less killed our local scene. They didn't want casual games without steamroller rules and netlisting because it didn't help them prepare for tournaments. They only cared about winning games (and a handful of them would often fudge measuring, and argue over timing rules for an advantage, even the Press Ganger), and disparage minis they considered "sub-par." It really sucked the fun out of what was once a laid-back gathering.
Jaxson Ramirez
Like I said. If you do a bad playtest that will lead to bad results. Doesn't make playtesting a bad thing. And them not fixing that shit till Mk3 just drives the incompetence point home.
Evan Diaz
Again, I agree with all that. I think the game is stronger if you do update this stuff a bit every few years.
My favorite recently was the "Is the new Ghetorix legal?" That one was just pure sperg and I guess a few people being mad that they made a resculpt for him cause they'd have to buy it.
Evan Flores
>My favorite recently was the "Is the new Ghetorix legal?" That one was just pure sperg and I guess a few people being mad that they made a resculpt for him cause they'd have to buy it.
I was one of the dudes posting in that thread, and I should have been clearer.
My point wasn't "The new sculpt isn't legal!", because that's retarded.
My point was "Your conversion rules fucking suck, and you should change them."
Having conversion rules so restrictive that your own official model violates them is pretty bad.
Zachary Johnson
I'm sure they did internal playtesting, and maybe outsourced a little bit. The card leaks suggest at least someone had the rules.
But still, like I said, it's better to think of this whole first year as an open playtest.
Ryan Rogers
>Some of the blowup could be avoided in part if PP changed how they say to the community. This is every game though. >When they say that Mk3 is meant in part to simplify rules, reduce rule clutter, and make interactions of rules easier to understand, then botch a rule, they'd get less shit if they just said "whoops, that's one that slipped by, better correct that!" Instead, they tried to play the "working as intended, nothing to see here" card, which needlessly stirred the hornet nest. Aside from gang/flank, it's been cleaner edition for me. >One aspect of Warmachine/Hordes that I think contributes to blow ups over small things vs Infinity/Malifaux is that WarmaHordes has a far more competitively-minded playerbase, and they might take rules, model performance, and faction balance far more seriously than the casual player might. Which goes back to this being a problem with every game. Malifaux is just now realizing that rats can do weird things. Infinity is just as complex as warmachine but there is a bit more a skill aspect to it so a lot of people will shout you down with git gud meme. Its like the warmachine community hit this critical mass where everyone is constantly finding a new thing to complain about. Its in a lot of video game forums and warhammer forums too. I think want to say it has more to do with gamers being who we are, than them. They could have made every rule free and everyone gets a free model of their choice, but the community would complain that its only one and not any of the infinite numbers above one.
Jace Watson
Yeah, people took it that way.
I know what theyre going for. As a business they want people to use their shit, especially if theyre streaming it. But they want people to convert and stuff cause thats the hobby. It really just needs to be a "If the TO said ok, then everyone just has to deal with it." Which is generally the case. Been playing for years with converted models and haven't caught flak about it. The thing is, the people willing to throw that flak, are the that guys of all gaming. The current policy puts an unwanted anxiety on players of running into that guy at a tournament and then a to caving to him and you getting dq'ed.
Nathan Peterson
>The card leaks suggest at least someone had the rules. Translators leaked the cards.
Nolan Sullivan
I'm sorry. Proofreaders, not translators.
Charles Long
Just bought the Legion Battle group. Thinking of buying the Mk2 battlebox, and transitioning to this list. Is it any good?
>all those Shredders >Neraph Why? I mean, yeah you've already got them. But that's really it.
Logan Cruz
And one more thing to make the horror perfect-
Countertechs are selective-spectrum and are costed like they were the proactive techs they are supposed to respond to. The opponent sees the countertech you have paid for and put on table... and does something else. Modifies his play slightly to avoid counter. Overwhelms it with cheap probability fixes.
Gaurenteed effect broad-spectrum countertechs don't exist in-faction (ex: Agonizer, if it had self-sacrifice and shut down arc nodes); cheap countertechs don't exist in faction (ex: agonizer, if it were 4 pts- like jr). It's worthwhile to just play naked of support; you can gaurentee you're getting a definite return on your points.
Aaron Harris
I'd have liked to see [Grim Salvation: Titan] on Agonizers, if only to see what comes of it. I don't even titan-brick; it'd certainly get the bugs back off the table, though. Or not. Gunlines are real.
Robert Peterson
Mk3 Pistol Wraith in a casual setting, go.
Carter Miller
I dunno, just play it with Denny.
Parker Young
>They didn't want casual games without steamroller rules and netlisting because it didn't help them prepare for tournaments.
On the other hand, I found myself saying to a newbie and realize that I firmly believe that this game simply isn't balanced outside of steamroller. There are factions I simply wouldn't risk trying to introduce a player into the game with without a scenario to keep other factions honest. Caster-kill games aren't as casual friendly as you'd assume without thinking about it.
Chase Sanders
My issue is how RPS it gets with scenarios.
To the point I ask myself why bother playing Assassin Casters?
There is no possible way to make me enjoy this game every time I play it. I have to pray that my opponent is like minded as me and builds lists as generalist first, specialists second.
The game feels too lethal for scenarios and too imbal for assasination only.
The only way I feel I can enjoy the game is if i find a like minded individual that wants to switch up his gameplay instead of playing the same dick punch lists over and over.
Carter Sanchez
>Its like the warmachine community hit this critical mass where everyone is constantly finding a new thing to complain about.
It's because PP announced one of their aims for Mk3 was cracking down on 'negative play experiences'. While that's an admirable goal, now everyone is coming out and claiming that the thing they like least about the game is a 'negative play experience' and should be changed or removed. It's gotten to the point where even I, a casual shitter who plays casualmachine with two other guys and always hated Page 5, thinks the community needs to pull their boots up, git gud, and play the fucking game.
