I just came across this line while reading the Silmarillion
>"and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad."
>"Every kind, save the Elves"
what did JRRT mean by this?
did he imply there where Orcs in the last alliance?
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Orcs ARE elves. So no.
Probably so. Old JRRT was never happy that the orcs came across as irredeemably evil in LotR.
But using that logic would imply that all the Orcs where fighting for Gil-Galad. And that makes no sense at all.
Orcs fight each other all the time man. And while they're pretty much all evil, they're not psychotic KILL EVERYTHING THAT MOVE. You have groups of men and dwarves making agreements with orcs mentioned in the hobbit
it is certainly plausible to think of a tribe of orcs joining the LA to get at another group of orcs.
Lastly, the Drughu, like Ghan, seem to have an obscure kinship with orcs. Maybe that's enough to count.
Yelp, that's the shape of it. Gross orcs, fighting for justice.
>When we defeat the master's Uruks we will be the ones to swing the lash
Where there's a whip...
This also means there were evil dwarves.
has there been much done in the Tolkien sphere with Morgoth aligned dwarves?
Makes sense to me, Sauron and Saruman were both servants of Aule and turned to Morgoth, why wouldn't some dwarves?
Could be renegade dwarves were responsible for developing the great war machines of the dark and teaching weapon smithing to the orcs. Remember that orcs up to the Fourth Age were counted as gifted craftsman, just cruel minded in their inventions and utilitarian in their designs.
There's a meme
Posting best song
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It would make sense.
Possibly they are fighting because they like fighting and don't care for who.
Possibly they are fighting to be the last orcs of any importance left standing and therefore kings of all orcdom by default.
Possibly they are fighting because FUCK YOU, YOU PRETTY BOY SHIT! WE COULD HAVE BEEN BEAUTIFUL AND CAPABLE OF BEAUTY AND YOU STOLE THAT FROM US! WE GONNA FUCK YOUR SHIT UP OR DIE TRYING!
quite probably
orcs actually hate Morgoth and Sauron and Tolkien didn't like the idea of them being Always Evil
probably a powerful lord like Gil-Galad could break Sauron's control over at least some orcs.
nothing substantial, no. Tolkien just mentioned something along the lines that just a few dwarfs ever joined the dark side.
because Aule specifically forged them resistant to corruption. heck, even the Rings couldn't corrupt them, just ramped up their greed. Maiar attracted to Aule's host are not the same as creatures created by Aule.
>Tolkien didn't like the idea of them being Always Evil
He never said this. Ever.
I have a distinct memory of having read somewhere that dwarves were the only race to never serve a Dark Lord.
“They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote "irredeemably bad"; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimately good.)’’ - The Letters of JRR Tolkien #153
--note, that they are not IRREDEEMABLE
Plus there are such traits as loyalty and respect for worthy opponents shown even in LotR.
I'm sure if my JRRT Letters book was at hand, I'd fish up more quotes.
Also, JRRT was strictly anti-racist IRL, so there's that.
Not entirely true. It was christoffer tolkien that decided to include that origin in the sillmarillion after JRRT died. There was multiple explinations but the one with corrupted elves made more sense to Chris I guess.
What were the other explanations? I never liked the corrupted elves one
corrupted humans
not sure if there was a corrupted beasts explanation, since elevated animals are always a big deal in JRRT's works (i.e. Eagles, Dragons, etc)
He played with the thought of including lesser maiar to iirc.
Pretty sure Treebeard in LotR says something about trolls being a mockery of ents like orcs are a mockery of elves
Also, we know that Morgoth couldn't really make something new
but maiar cannot be born, so that theory doesn't fit the final version
Does that make urukhai 3/4 humans?
hard to say. since corruption is gradual, it can be assumed humans Saruman bred his orcs with were not 100% humans either at that point. so I day it's more like 17/23 human
>blowed up
Why do this? Why make a fool of yourself by making such an unequivocal statement that can be easily refuted if you weren't absolutely sure you were right?
IIRC Dragons weren't really finalised as being elevated animals. No clear explanation was given.
that's most likely explanation, as it is for Eagles. I think the general agreement that Torondor (not sure) and Glaurung (for sure) were incarnated Maiar, and their progeny was elevated beasts with traces of Maiar heritage (explaining dragons' powers). IIRC, of course.
there are other theories, but they are dismantled quickly.
There's a huge difference between
>Tolkien didn't like the idea of them [Orcs] being Always Evil
and
>creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote "irredeemably bad"; but that would be going too far.
Learn to read please, he liked the idea of the world being God's and ultimately good therefore he didn't like the idea of Orcs being irredeemably bad (which is pretty much Always Evil)
I guess it's just a matter of perspective. That quote can be interpreted both ways.
Still, there were orcs on the side of the Last Alliance, so there's that. Of course there can be other reasons, than moral alignment - said loyalty, for instance (say, some elf or man saved an orc chiftain's life for some reason, and so the orc felt loyal enough to even fight for him), or hatred for Sauron + respect for worthy foes ("We hate the guy and he's very powerful, so we'll get both revenge and glory for fighting him").
well, JRRT WAS a Christian, so he could also mean post-mortem redemption. as I said - can be interpreted either way.
so after the post-mortem redemption they were still evil?
their souls become good, of course
they join the Second Music if they corrupted humans, or are reborn into perfect bodies if they are corrupted elves, whatever
that's what happens when you use proxy minis
I don't think it's a viable explanation really.
First, evil corruption of formerly good creatures almost invariably results in weaker imitations. Second, dragons are so different to eagles in several ways I think it's clutching at winged straws to draw a link.
I think this is the best explanation I've read so far
cogitemusaccurate.blogspot.com.au
From memory, it covers my two objections for why eagles aren't a good source.
I think it posits that Melkor bred huge dumb lizard beasts and then either had an evil maiar possess the body of one or he himself possessed the body of one, and then had scaly sex with each other.
I'm paraphrasing.
I never said Dragons were made from Eagles, just that they were created the same way
Second Music?
just read Silmarillion, it's too beautiful and complex to describe in a fucking Veeky Forums post
Irredeemably bad would be something unforgivable by God. What Tolkien says is pretty clearly 'Orcs are naturally evil, but God can still forgive them, for they are ultimately his creations'.
Oh yeah sorry lol
I understood that at first then forgot the point doing something else.
Creation is a symphony of music created by God.
Basically, he's still working it out and he'll make a second version. Elves aren't in it but Men are.
I've just ruined the magic for you.
Nonsense. The intro is very important, and it is always lovely to have unique aspects to it.
you even managed to fuck that up.
Music, created by his angels (and, later, humans) out of their own free will, which is very important. Even Melkor's theme, which went in contrast to Eru's was still part of Creation.
>Music, created by his angels (and, later, humans) out of their own free will
>Melkor's theme, which went in contrast to Eru's
so did Eru make the music or not
along with others, yes. he sort of made it happen, while they actually shaped the creation
omitting the Ainur is blatantly incorrect
From the perspective of a Christian apologist, yeah sure.
>I can disregard an important part of a world's metaphysics because they are based on a real-world mythology I don't subscribe to
no.
when playing, heck, D&D, you don't disregard gods as an important part of the setting just because they are more or less based on Greek mythology and you don't believe in Greek pantheon.
The music was created by Eru. He gave the Ainur roles and themes to play. Mellon is explicitly said to be the only one to add his own design to it, and it disrupts the theme of Eru. He, however, is able to weave Melkor's discord into his music by adding new elements to it, and by the end He tells Melkor outright that he is but Eru's creation, and that all he does can do nothing to disrupt the plan Eru has laid out but only prove it even grander and more beautiful.
Please, you lost. Admit it, stop trying to save face.
>Mellon
Autocorrect. I didn't want to write this on my phone, but I had little choice if I wanted to get it down today.
See
You can't be redeemed from a Christian perspective, especially a Catholic perspective, without recognizing and rejecting, and repenting of Sin BEFORE death. Most catholics further believe that good works are part of redemption - it's not enough to just say Christ is Lord.
Am Catholic, can confirm it as a general rule.
Exceptions made for genuinely repentant sinners on their deathbeds who can't do shit.
It is not enough to say "Lulz sorry for the bad stuff, God iz gud.I can haz free Heaven plz?"
Words are worthless with out good honest effort and good works.
Isn't that second version our own world?
Created from slime, I think. Problem with that was that Evil shouldn't be capable of creating life, only corrupting it.
Not him, but no. The Second Music is supposed to be after a Ragnarok-esque battle where Evil is finally defeated forever, and the world created by the Second Music (which will include Elves, I'm not sure why that user thinks it wouldn't) will be perfect in all respects, unmarred by evil.
It's basically a post second coming heaven on earth kind of thing
Yes, and Orcs are technically capable of all that, it just doesn't happen.
>it just doesn't happen.
It just isn't mentioned. Important distinction.
If this is true:Some orcs fought Morgoth at his peak. Their creator and the Great Evil of the setting.
That they were a different race altogether. We don't really know what Tolkien had in mind, except that the changed his mind about them being Elves.
Thanks for the answer. I'm sure I read somewhere the far future of middle earth being our world somewhere, but I think I just confused it with something else.
No, that's true as well. Middle Earth is supposed to be a mythic history of our own world, and Tolkien has stated things like he thinks the birth of Jesus marked the beginning (or was it end? I don't have all the letters memorized) of the Sixth Age.
It's just that the second music still hasn't come yet by that timeline.
Tolkien's works are about disappearance of mystical and magical elements in the world and the beginning of the age of men and wisdom. In this way, they are an allegory to the real world, especially to the period Tolkien was writing in.
While the stories does contain allegorical elements (the Ring representing power and its corrupting influence), the stories themselves are not allegories - by which Tolkien meant that they didn't represent any current events (Mordor is not the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany, the Ring is not nuclear weapons, and so on). When he says that Middle-Earth is our world he means so entirely literally. Middle-Earth is a lost age in our own history.
Wasn't it made a big point that Melkor couldn't create life, only corrupt and twist it?
I doubt they'd be their own race.
A separate race as in Orcs existed before Melkor corrupted them, as creatures created by Eru. These early Orcs may not have been entirely malicious by nature, but of a lower standing than say Elves, Men, or Dwarves and easily influenced and swayed by fear.
>t is not enough to say "Lulz sorry for the bad stuff, God iz gud.I can haz free Heaven plz?"
Except it is that way, have you read New Testament. No sin is irredemable.
When do orcs show loyalty or respect for their opponents in LotR? I can only think of examples where they're shown to be disloyal and disrespectful.
No, the "dwarves are engineers" thing post-dates Tolkien.
For Tolkien, artistry and craftsmanship and doing things the old way was good. Mechanisms and industry were evil. So dwarves and elves produce beautiful works of smithy and architecture and whatnot, while those evil nasty goblins use cogs and blasting powder and other industrial-revolution badness. A dwarf would never make a nasty, smokey steam engine or bomb!
Writers and gamers since then have not shared Tolkien's mechanophobia and WWI shellshock, so the arbitrary distinction has faded. Now we imagine dwarves as being craftsmen of all kinds of stuff.
>orcs are implied to fight together with the free peoples
>sons of feanor immediately slay their shit
>they are either incompetent or suddenly indifferent to morgoth's spawn
Alrighty then
>Mechanisms and industry were evil.
Not /inherently/, though they usually were.
The theme as I interpreted it was more that efficiency plus warfare was evil. Gandalf using gunpowder for his fireworks was artisanship and he was using technology to bring joy and beauty, Saruman's use of technology became to the end of destruction and warfare.
It was less mechanism and progress that was bad, it was more efficiency and impersonality.
You are correct. No one is beyond the reach of God.
But if you have turned your back on God and wish to come back then you have to genuinely want to change. If you are honest in your rejection of sin and embracing of God you will live as he taught and work towards it.
Empty words are empty.
James 2:16
If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?
Tolkien specifically pointed out this comment of Treebeard's as an example of characters' in-universe knowledge being potentially flawed. (And in any case, "mockery of" isn't the same as "corrupted".)
Contrary to popular belief, uruk-hai are most likely not a cross between humans and orcs. They're just better orcs.
>And in any case, "mockery of" isn't the same as "corrupted".
While true, it interacts oddly with Morgoth's aforementioned inability to create. If he's made a mockery of something, what did he make it out of?
Tolkien hated allegory though.
see:
Why do this? Why make a fool of yourself by making such an assinine post that can be easily refuted because its stupid?
Words AND works are useless. Do you even christian, brahs? Redemption is God's decision only. Based on actual true repentance of the soul in question. Purgatory is a thing, in Catholicism. Look it up, heathen scum.
No, they were elves. (You) are wrong. Stop trolling, fuckhead.
See
Do please tell us more about how orcs aren't corrupted elves - I am enjoying your fantasy make believe story.
Hobbit, audience with the Goblin-King. His hospitality was no worse than the Elven-King's. And given that he didn't 'orc-out' and kill the dwarves right from the start indicates a degree of respect. Not a high degree, but a degree.
LOTR, Ugluk shows tremendous respect for the Rohirrim and their prowess. This also demonstrates Ugluk's intelligence and strategic ability; but respect is respect: Ugluk respected the Rohirrim's resolve and ability. AND Eomer RETURNED that respect by dueling Ugluk alone.
Dwarves make toys of ingenius mechanical complexity. So, no.
Tolkien is about HOW the technology is used, and WHY. The purpose of technology is to UPLIFT mankind, not enslave it.
Grow up, kid. Not all eldar are 'sons of Feanor'. Jesus fucking christ.
The Sindar hunted (and probably ate, hunting for sport alone does at least not seem very Elven) Petty-Dwarves because they thought that they were animals and didn't stop until the Eastern Dwarves reached out and made contact with the Elves, at which point they realised what the 'animals' actually were.
>Tolkien specifically pointed out this comment of Treebeard's as an example of characters' in-universe knowledge being potentially flawed.
Pff! You gonna hafta sauce that, nigga. You gonna hafta sauce that hard.
Oh please! List the others, then. Let's see them.
>Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or underst and. He does not know what' wizards' are, or whence they came (though I do, even if exercising my subcreator's right I have thought it best in this Tale to leave the question a 'mystery', not without pointers to the solution).
>Letter 153 To Peter Hastings
W-what's your point, user? Elves kill things. Elves can be ignorant and stupid. Sounds a bit like something that could be rather easily corrupted into an 'orc', no?
Read the thread.
Sounds a lot like something that would kill an Orc at sight, son of Fëanor or not.
That sauce doesn't indicate a lack of knowledge of middle earth-y things; just cosmic things. OF COURSE an entity tied solely to Middle Earth is not going to be aware of the goings-on in Aman. Treebeard can't know about angels and such. But he CAN know about the history of his race and the lands in which he dwells - especially when one considers that he is almost without doubt the oldest living thing in Middle Earth.
Try moar.
Done that. Weak arguments. List the others FROM THE SAUCE.
>That sauce doesn't indicate a lack of knowledge of middle earth-y things
He talks specifically about Treebeard's assertion that Morgoth created Trolls and Orcs.
You describe wood elves at the beginning of time. We are talking about end of third age. They've matured since the beginning. They are capable of thought and wisdom now. And compassion, even.
Not to mention, of course, that virtually EVERY ELF ALIVE is absolutely HORRIFIED by the actions of Feanor and his sons.
That wasn't in the sauce provided - why do you lie, user?
, It has to do with the Professor's strongly held Christian beliefs, which maintain that ANYONE can repent for their sins and redeem themselves if they truly desire to, and that Satan (or Morgoth) cannot truly create or make things, only twist the beautiful works of God into evil shapes.
His religious beliefs strongly influenced his writing in one way or another.
That was nice to learn, thanks.
>Also, JRRT was strictly anti-racist IRL, so there's that.
One person wrote a letter to him talking about how he was a fan of how the novels appropriately described a racial war between darker-skinned people and his response was something like
>"I think it's sad when petty, cruel beliefs are so fragile that they must twist the words of other men to find any support for them."
It's honestly about the single most distainful thing I've ever read by him.