MTG Magic The Gathering Ask A Judge - Monday Funday Edition

You all know the drill by now! Ask and ye shall receive (answers, at least)

Outside of common sense, are there technically recorded rules that allow for a disabled player to have someone physically interact with the cards on their behalf or would the Head Judge have to arbitrate it?

I think there might be something actually in the docs, but I'd have to dig for it. I know I've seen it done in events I was working; generally nobody bats an eye so long as the 'assistant' is only helping with the physical interaction, and not giving any kind of assistance to what plays to make.

Hey um what about leyline of punishment vs leyline of sanctity does leyline of punishment trump hexproof since damage cannot be prevented?

Hexproof means that the player can't be targeted by spells the opponent control, it doesn't prevent any damage (at least directly). There is no interaction between the two leylines.

Your damage can't be prevented, but you can't target them for damage to begin with.

*spells or abilities

Two ruling questions i need help with.

1. If i have platinum emperion out and someone THEN hits me for 21 points of commander damage, do i still lose?

2. i have sen triplets out and on my upkeep choose an opponent with it's effect. I then play show and tell, does that player i choose get to put a card on the field?

Opponent plays Maelstrom Wanderer from the general zone. I play counterflux for its overload cost. What have I countered? Just MW, or any or all of the cascades (I'm trying to find ways to deal with MW)

Damage can't be prevented has nothing to do with hexproof. Hexproof isn't preventing damage, it's preventing you from targeting something.

1) Yep! Emperion just stops your life total from changing, it doesn't prevent damage. For example, if someone domes you with a Lifelink guy, they still gain life. The damage still happens, it just doesn't change your life total, so Commander Damage can still accumulate.

2) Nope. It's YOU casting the spell, just from a zone you normally can't: someone else's hand. Beyond that it's normal spellcasting, just like Flashback letting you cast a spell from your graveyard for an alternate cost.

At most, you can stop Wanderer and one Cascade. If you windmill slam Counterflux right then, you stop just Wanderer, and he still gets his Cascades. What you'd want to do is let one of the Cascade triggers resolve so he casts a spell, so the stack is now

>Cascaded-into spell A
>Cascade Trigger B
>Wanderer

At this point you decide if you want to blow the Counterflux to hit Spell A and Wanderer, or let that through and see what Spell B is. There's no way for you to hit both Cascaded spells AND Wanderer with just one Counterflux, because those three spells will never be on the stack together.

In re: Wanderer

I don't take your meaning of windmill slam; I have heard it used in several (likely incorrect) ways.

Presumably, I can also allow Cascaded-into Spell A resolve, then counter Cascaded-into spell B and Wanderer with the Counterflux, assuming A doesn't set off some chain I need to stop.

My meaning of 'windmill slam' is basically snap-casting it. Like

>I cast Maelstrom wand-
>In response, overloaded Counterflux

"windmill slam" here is basically 'jumping the gun'.

But yes, it is 100% possible to allow Spell A to resolve, then wait to see what Spell B is and counter it AND Wanderer. You can hit Spell A and Wanderer, or Spell B and Wanderer, but not all three, and not A and B, because A and B are never both on the stack at the same time. Grok?

Got it. Sorry one last follow up. Since each is considered a separate spell, if I played rule of law the Wanderer would have to enter without the cascades?

>sorry
Don't be! I'm happy to help. I'm doing these threads because I want to.

>Your actual question
Correct. Wanderer would be their one spell for the turn. Each Cascade trigger would wheel until it hit something with a CMC of 7 or less. They don't have the OPTION of casting it, so they simply put it on the bottom of their library with the rest of the cards, in a random order. Then they do it again, then Wanderer resolves.

Ahhh, damn emperion cant save me from everything haha.

But for the show and tell one, I was casting it from my hand. The opponent i choose with sen triplets was trying to argue that he could put a creature from his hand on the field anyway, even though sen locks there hand. cause the wording is wonky, I honestly dont know what the ruling is.

Danke

Okay, I totally misunderstood your question, I'm sorry.

Sen Triplets stops your opponent from casting spells or activating abilities during the turn they get hit with the trigger.

Show and Tell does not cast cards from anyone's hand, it puts them directly onto the battlefield. Sen Triplets doesn't stop that, so they absolutely DO get to put a creature onto the battlefield.

Bitte!

Ahhh alright, thanks for clearing that up. Appreciate it!

So, I'm caught in a really weird position. I'm trying to teach my friends to play properly, but I also dont want to be a huge dick.

My Commander playgroup misses triggers several times during a game, and at first I would stop play, remind them, rewind any actions if appropriate, put the trigger on the stack. But it's been several months and You would think they'd understand by now. But this happened:

>player A goes to untap step, untaps a Siren of the Silent Song
>forgets Inspired trigger
>draw step
>main phase, drops a land
>says: "OH, crap. You guys need to discard and mill one.

Now I said, "No, we don't. You missed your trigger, and clearly indicated that moves on with your turn. We don't put that trigger on the stack unless your opponents want to, and I dont."

The other players called me and ass and we mostly moved on outside of some sarcastic comments and a serious mood change.

Should I continue to hold their hand through every nuance of the rules? Should I just sit back and let them fuck up basic rules? I'm really at a loss here.

What I'd suggest is before you start a game, just come out and say it. "I know this isn't the Pro Tour here, but the level of sloppy plays and take-backs and missed triggers is really frustrating to me. I know we're just playing for fun, but I think we'd all have more fun if we were playing more tightly. For this game, let's try to play as tight as we can; if we miss a trigger, we miss it, no 'oh go ahead and do it now'." etc, etc. The only way they're going to stop making these mistakes is if there starts to be repercussions for them. I had to do the same with my group; I started by just making every fifth match or so "serious time", but now they know I don't let them fuck around.

That's not a big deal. I understand how it can be annoying, but I find it much more annoying to rewind for a complicated trigger with a lot of moving parts on the stack. It wasn't a "may" trigger like Rhysic Study, it was a "whenever x untaps" trigger, which means everyone is obligated to do it, whether they like it or not. Unless they're pulling off some crazy shenanigans, I think that is a meh thing to do because it was relatively low impact. If someone popped Doomsday and set up a combo, but missed one of their triggers, I think that's a fine time to say "look bud, you were about to win the game, but you misplayed, now you have to live with it" but that's just personal preference.

You should never rewind for a missed trigger, ever. At Competitive and Professional REL, once you move past the point where you need to demonstrate awareness, it's missed. If it's "caught" before that same step of the next turn, your opponent has the option to put it on the stack, but they're not obligated to let you have it.

In Regular REL, it's still considered missed once you pass that 'point of no return' for demonstrating awareness of it, but it's up to the judge to determine whether it's less disruptive to leave things as-is, or to put the trigger on the stack if it was caught in a reasonable timeframe. You're also never obligated to point out your opponent's triggers at any REL.

Fair enough gA, I guess the context was more in a casual game where you're introducing someone to commander than in an actual competitive environment, but you're absolutely right.

Yeah, my 'leniency' varies. If I'm playing with someone I don't know very well, or that I know for a fact is new to Magic/Commander, I'll give a fair amount of leeway, pointing out their triggers for them, letting them take back some things, and generally trying to emphasize the fun and the learning.

If it's someone that I know knows better? Nah, you missed that. Sucks to suck, bro.

I really like this idea. Have the first game of the night be something like a "Game Night Qualifier " where for every rule infraction you have to put a dollar in the snack jar. I think my group can get behind that. Thanks for the help.

Do you need to pay taxes for spells you cast without paying their casting cost?
Lets say I cast something with Gobbo Dark-Dwellers and my oppononent has a Thalia out. Since I don't pay the cost it doesn't matter that it now costs one 1 more right?

I'm terrible with the stack so please hear me out. When I cast Render Silent in response to a spell, it does not prevent subsequent spells to be cast while Render Silent is on the stack - they still get to respond to it once I pass priority. Am I correct?

>4/15/2013: Render Silent doesn’t stop any player from casting spells in response to Render Silent before it resolves.
You can check out a lot rules questions on Gatherer. It's not always you can find what you are looking for, but it's a good place to start.

Exactly, everything that's written on the spell applies when it resolves

Really the important thing is that you make it abundantly clear you're taking the kid gloves off for that game before you even shuffle up, and try to space them out. You can make them more frequent as you go, but you have to acclimate them towards that being the norm, or you're just "that asshole who throws fits about rules during all our games".

Yep. You start with the base or alternate cost ('free' in this case), then tack on additional costs (whether voluntary like Kicker, or compulsory like Thalia's tax), then deduct discounts, then 3ball.

Correct. Render Silent doesn't lock your opponent out of spells until it resolves, and your opponent can respond to it before it does so.

Is Modular a trigger ability that I can copy with Strionic Resonator to give double the +1/+1 counters to an artifact creature?

The on-death is a trigger; the etb is not.

Continuing the wanderer theme though, when it is cast I assume the stack looks like this:
>Cascade trigger B
>Cascade trigger A
>Wanderer
Would Summary Dismissal hit both the Wanderer and its cascades? In other words, are cascade triggers activated/triggered abilities?

The coming in with counters is a replacement effect that modifies how the creature enters the battlefield; if it was a trigger, the Modular creatures would all come in as a 0/0, trigger, then die to SBAs before the trigger could go on the stack.

The "When I die, put out counters" part is absolutely a trigger that you can copy though.

Cascade is a triggered ability. A Summary Dismissal would exile the Wanderer and counter both of the Cascade triggers.

How does Athreos, God of Passage work with Persist?
>Kitchen Finks and Athreos on field.
>Finks dies with no counters on it
What happens? What options do I and my opponent have?

Depends on how the triggers get stacked:

>Finks is below Athereos, your opponent pays the 3
Atheroes trigger resolves.
You opponent pays the 3, Finks stays where it is.
Finks trigger resolves, Finks etb w/ a -1/-1 counter.
Finks etb trigger goes on the stack.
Finks etb trigger resolves, you gain 2 life.

>Finks is below Athereos, your opponent doesn't pay
Atheroes trigger resolves.
You opponent doesn't pay, Finks goes to your hand (no may).
Finks trigger has no legal targets, the game object it wants to interact with no longer exists.
Finks stays in your hand.

>Athereos is below Finks
Finks trigger resolves, Finks etb w/ a -1/-1 counter.
Finks etb trigger goes on the stack.
Finks etb trigger resolves, you gain 2 life.
Atheroes trigger has no legal targets, the game object it wants to interact with no longer exists.
Your opponent *does not* get to choose to pay 3, even if they could Finks would stay on the field.

You choose in which order your triggers enter the stack, then resolve them last-in-first-out:
1) put the athreos trigger before persist, persist will resolve first returning the finks on the battlefield. Athreos will do nothing since the finks are no longer in the graveyard when his trigger resolves
2) put persist before the athreos trigger, athreos resolves first and the opponent will be given the choice. If he does not pay, the finks go back into your hand and persist does nothing. If he does not pay, persist triggers and returns the finks on the battlefield

Do you love Chandra?

I love Chandra.
I love that when she sits still long enough, cats sit on her lap.

You'll have Charon's trigger, and the Persist trigger, and stack them as you please.

If you put Persist first, Finks comes back a little weaker, and then no-fucking-body is gonna pay 3 life for the do-nothing trigger.

If you put Charon's trigger first, your opponents get the opportunity to pay 3 life to stop you from getting the Finks to your hand. If they do, then Persist will bring it back. If they don't, it'll go to your hand, and then Persist will resolve and do nothing.

My love for Chandra grows every single time they put her in a story.

Too bad everyone in that UR was written like stupid teenagers in high school.

so I have a question and I always thought it worked one way, and everybody Ive ever known has said its that way, but someone just informed me its actually different.

My question is: If I tap pic related to double my goblins, and someone responds with a kill spell (doom blade etc.), do I still get the goblins? Ive always been told that I dont but a friend of mine tells me that since the ability exists separate from himself, that it still resolves even if krenko dies. The only consequence is I would count my goblins after krenko is gone. Is that true?

Yes, abilities exist on the stack independently from their sources

Abilities on the stack exist independent of their sources. Think of the ability like a grenade, and the source like a soldier; shooting the soldier doesn't stop the grenade he already threw.

If abilities were tied to their sources, Mogg Fanatic would be a really, really bad card.

thank you guys i just wanted to double check

the effect is on the stack. it will happen unless the activated ability is countered somehow. X is evaluated as it resolves. So killing Krebko just mrans X is one less than when he was alive.

Never a bad choice! Hell, every Judge I've ever known (well, every GOOD one) has to occasionally ping another judge just to run something past them, even if they're 99% sure.

I'm building/playing UB tortured existence in pauper, and have a question about pic related. It seems to be worded in the same manner as Tidehollow Sculler and Fiend Hunter. Can I sac it with the second trigger on the stack to my Carrion Feeder to just exile something from their hand?
I'm pretty sure that I can, just would prefer some clarification.

Same deal. It's two triggers; the ETB exiles something 'for a time', and the LTB is what brings it back. If you cause the LTB trigger to resolve before the ETB does, then the LTB brings back nothing, then the ETB exiles the card forever. Any of the cards that are worded as two separate triggers, that trick works; it's the 'new' wording like Banishing Light and Banisher Priest where it's just one trigger with a duration where the trick doesn't work.

My opponent has Oppression in play, my hand is a forest and Life from the loam, my graveyard has no lands.

Is it legal to cast Life from the loam, so I cna grab the forest from the discard?

It is not. Life from the Loam needs a target the second you put it on the stack, at which point your graveyard is empty. Oppression won't trigger until you've fully cast your spell, including selecting targets, and you won't discard your land until that trigger resolves.

So you could theoretically cast it with 0 targets to discard your Forest, but you wouldn't get the Forest back that turn.

Does the active player receive priority after a special action is taken?

Only if that player is the one taking the action!

Any time a player takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.

People at my shop get on to me for pointing out other people's kalitas "trigger", but I'm pretty sure it is a rule violation if you don't tell them because its a replacement effect and doesn't trigger shit. What do?

gA, if a player discovers sideboard cards in their deck in g1 of a match at regular REL at some point after pregame actions (so not in the opener), how do you proceed? From what the JAR document says, it seems like you're meant to have them de-sideboard on the spot, which seems... messy. I'd be inclined to just tell them to play on and be more careful in the future, since that fucks up the fewest things.

In your game, or someone else's? If it's not your match, you shouldn't say anything if you're not the judge - get the store judge to come over and fix things. You're right, though, in that it's not a trigger and can't be missed in the same way.

no it will be my game. for example they terminate my dude and i put it into exile and they don't put a zombie out and im like hey put your zombie out they'' either be like aww i missed my trigger or other people will be like you shouldnt remind people of their own triggers. The only thing getting triggered is me though.

It's not a trigger, that is correct. It's a replacement effect, and it's not legal to 'allow' a player to forget it. If your opponent has a Kalitas, you can't knowingly put your creatures in your graveyard and hope they 'forget' their Kalitas' effect; that is called "cheating".

If it's in someone ELSE'S game, you shouldn't step in directly, technically; you should just stop them, say something is wrong, and call a Judge to fix it.

Well, he can say "Hey, stop, something's wrong and I need to get the Judge."

As for your question: pretty much a judgement call about whether it's more disruptive and damaging to have them desideboard right there, or just play on (assuming you suspect no foul play).

Well, two ways to do that. One is to be nice: "That's actually not a trigger, it's a replacement effect, and you CAN'T forget it."

The other way is to say "Could you point out to me where the words 'when', 'whenever', or 'at' are in that effect?". Probably don't lead with the sass.

And now is bedtime.