Is 40k the only galactic-scale sci-fi setting where the navy is effectively less prestigious and politically powerful...

That's because that C'tan was moving at relativistic speeds you mongoloid. They're energy beings trapped within a shell of sled replicating nanomachines and can fly around like superman, or hurl black holes at you.

Okay, I'm going to try and get this thread back on track before it turns into yet more powerlevel nonsense. I don't want to see a nice thread about the Navy wasted, we barely get any of them anymore.

What is everyone's favorite cruiser? Can't go wrong with a nice Lunar, the workhorse of space.

Dictator, I know it's kinda the odd man out, but it's the first one I ever used, so I have a soft spot for it.

Desu senpai, BFG made me love and appreciate the humble little dauntless. Fuckers are like pitbulls. Covered in armor and macro cannons.

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It's my bae, user.

Treat her well.

> What are Skitarii

But I'm only posting this because I don't know much about the Imperial navy.

They have huge guts, and huge slave crews inside the guts, to power the huge engines that in turn power the huge weapons?

...

It was my first cruiser purchase in the vidya. It's not exactly optimal for Imperials, but a quick fighter screen or bomber run was helpful every so often.

I don't know what category of ship they fall under, but I like those kraken things the Nids have.

Correct

Skitarii were barely mentioned user. We had guys claiming that Imperial Stormtroopers were better than dudes who fluffwise run at sanic' speeds in super suits.

Shit was fucked up.

But as for the navy...the issue I have with Battlefleet Gothic despite Dictator is that it was written at that mid-2000s period when 40k got stupidly grimdark. So all those massive slave crews and shit were a thing all the time.

You're telling me, I made a new fleet without any Dictators and played it after coming back to the game after a hiatus.

Went up against Space Marines.

I really missed that fighter screen.

Fucking Thunderhawks man. I imagine it'll be more of that when Tau get released.

In situations like that, you're better off taking nothing but Swords with extra turrets for your escorts. Hell, that's all I ever use them for.

I...really want a Battlefleet Bakka expansion before Tau.

Or at least, I want the existing fleets expanded, Orks to have more custom slots and Eldar to maybe get some Craftworld ships.

Adding new fleets can only go so far.

Addendum: I imagine Thunderhawks will be bloody murder against the Tau's inability to figure out how to punch someone, though.

But again, I really want Voss Pattern hulls and Apocalypse battleships.

Vengeance Grand Cruiser.
Go big or go home.

Probably the Big Bug category

And i forgot the pic

This fucking DBZ shit has no place in 40k.

FRIEEEEEZAAAAAAAAH!

Krakens are escorts (frigate or destroyer) in BFG

Can't go wrong with the Mars-Class Battlecruiser.

Not exactly stupid grimdark because thats close to what age of sail Royal Navy ships did. They press ganged to fill the complements of their crew.

Yeah, but Skitarii are a reasonable comparison.

I kind of like the whole "Massive slave crews" thing myself. It keeps people from taking the setting too seriously which is the best way to approach it.

Man, you better point to me where you had slave crews loading guns with shells the size of two story buildings in the Royal Navy, because that shit was wack.

when OP says army he means spess muhreenz

Are you new to 40k?
DBZ bullshit has been in the canon since year dot. Fucking Primarchs.

Do the Primarchs fly around and shoot lazer beams?

A salamander librarian did in one of tje novels

I wish I was joking

Everything is larger in 40k. The Royal Navy in ww2 were slinging shells weighing a ton. And thats for ocean going vessels. For space faring ships, thats just going to go up exponentially.

Also, you only mentioned massive slave crews. And that by itself isnt that grimdark.

>Imperial Navy Grand Admiral is a High Lord of Terra
>just like the Astra Militarum Lord Commander

>less prestigious

You have the dumbs, see a doctor or a gun store

>Even without a screen of Tau battleships, Mu’gulath Bay was still well protected. Orbital stations – called kir’norslaby the Tau – bore dozens of powerful shield generators along with massed gun batteries. Each kir’norsla was the hub of a networked system of defensive satellites. Those orbital constructs enshrouded the planet beneath a lattice grid of firepower patterns, a deadly gauntlet that would destroy any enemy craft that dared to enter high orbit. Until these defences were offline, Lord Admiral Hawke would not risk ferrying troops to the ground. It was time to call upon the Space Marines, the vaunted elite of Mankind’s armies.

>Thunderhawk Gunships and boarding torpedoes delivered strike teams to the orbital stations. In the low gravity battles that followed, the Space Marines were forced to contend with

>gun turrets, protective Drones and garrisons of Fire caste warriors in void suits. Speed was necessary, for the longer it took to disable the defensive stations, the longer the defences upon Mu’gulath Bay’s surface had to prepare.

>The Adeptus Astartes deployed jump pack-equipped Assault Squads. These warriors launched themselves from strafing Thunderhawk Gunships and, using controlled blasts from their jump packs, guided themselves onto the Tau superstructures, clamping on with activated magboots. Then, leapfrogging from gun turret to gun turret, they used melta bombs to disable them. Eventually, the Space Marines blasted their way inside the complex, fighting through the defending Fire caste soldiery. With their heavy shields and large ion cannons, the kir’norsla would have proven costly obstacles for the vast Imperial battleships to engage. The Space Marines, however, showed the extent of what a small group of the Emperor’s Finest could do.

>Of all the Adeptus Astartes, none fought with more determination than the Raven Guard. They fumed over the loss of their Chapter Master to Shadowsun on Prefectia. Each time their bolters blasted down a foe, the sons of Corvus Corax felt vindication. It was Kayvaan Shrike, their new Chapter Master, who led the assault on the largest orbital station. He clawed his way through the hull, carving through bulkheads and defenders alike, to place timed plasma charges at its core. Upon detonation, they set off a chain reaction that tore the station apart. For days afterwards, it was as if the planet had a second sun.

--------------

>The Tau had not been unprepared. Mu’gulath Bay was far from the heart of the Tau Empire, but the colony was as fully prepared and well equipped to repel invaders as any sept world. Yet despite the constant state of alert and a wide ring of sensors that Commander Shadowsun had personally approved, massive Imperial forces had appeared upon Mu’gulath Bay’s doorstep with almost no warning. The Tau were simply stunned by the magnitude and closing speed of the impending Imperial assault. The sheer size of the invasion was beyond anything the Tau had trained for, or that they could even have imagined.

>As the Space Marines took the orbital stations offline, ending their ability to engage spacecraft, the next stage of the planetary invasion had already begun. Ancient, cathedral-topped battlecruisers entered high orbit over Mu’gulath Bay in a line formation, opening fire with their innumerable lance batteries. Their first objective was to finish off the crippled space stations. Shorn of their protective shields by the Space Marines, it was not long before each orbital weapons platform was flaring as bright as a supernova. Only then did the Imperial battleships begin their long-ranged duel with the Tau surface batteries.

>Several of the Imperial ships sustained massive damage, with the Lunar-class cruiser Herald of Terra being forced to leave orbit after suffering repeated ion cannon blasts. This was nothing compared to the fate of the Dauntless-class ship Will of Iron. Taking a hyper railcannon shot through its reactor, the cruiser suffered catastrophic damage as a series of internal explosions left the hulking craft listing lifelessly to port and nearly split in half. It began an inevitable death spiral, slowly being drawn down by the planet’s gravity. There was nothing Lord Admiral Hawke and 478th Battlefleet Ultima could do to save the Will of Iron,yet watching her slow, inevitable death only served to drive the rest of the fleet onwards with renewed vigour. The planet shook with the reverberation of the bombardment that followed, with many of the newly emplaced Tau installations razed to the ground.

They are certainly influential but are they effective? I say no. Going by what I posted, the Imperial commanders couldn't take on a single Tau world without incurring considerable losses and damage to their vessels despite having overwhelming numbers. The marines involvement in disabling the Tau defense stations rescued the Imperial fleet from suffering crucial damage.

Does that make the fleet the least effective firm of the Imperial armed forces?

Wait...so they lost ONE ship and had several damaged and that's 'Considerable losses'. They razed the tau defences in return.

Magnus propably do

Don't mind, just on my way to pound your bitch from orbit.

user, 'Phyrric victory' still has the word victory in it.

It was the marine involvement that disabled most of those defenses, not the navy. In short, they cheated.

Also they failed to detect the Tau ambush and the hidden defenses until it was too late. Causing many transports to be lost before landing. The marines once again had to resolve the issue.

>After days of pounding strikes, the majority of the Tau guns were silenced. A few were so well protected by shield generators that they would require a more direct approach. Under the command of Kayvaan Shrike, the Space Marines used Drop Pod assaults to destroy the last few batteries that dared to engage the Imperial fleet. Only then did the first wave of atmospheric fighters and bombers enter Mu’gulath Bay’s atmosphere, hitting preselected targets. Space Marine Scouts were the first forces of the Imperium to hit the ground. Upon their signals, the vast transports and landing craft began the long process of ferrying billions of soldiers along with supporting materiel.

MY DICK
MOAR

But seriously, do you know how impossibly hard it is to assault a well-defended position? Greater numbers than the defender are a basic requirement and losses are to be expected; just look at the Normandy landings in ww2.

>With the same perfect timing that marked all of her operations, Commander Shadowsun unleashed her counter measures. Formations of Air caste fighters, previously screened from Imperial detection, suddenly appeared, seeking to intercept the incoming transports. Gun batteries hidden behind stealth fields now opened fire, turning several transports into balls of flame. From deep space, several strike forces of Tau battleships seized the opportunity to run the Imperial blockade, launching their own attack runs on the heavily troop-laden transports. The Imperium, however, had been forewarned. On Prefectia, Kayvaan Shrike had seen enough of Commander Shadowsun to know she would strike when her enemy was most vulnerable. Like clusters of angry insects, Imperial atmospheric fighters swarmed out to engage their enemy. Further Space Marine Drop Pods streaked downwards, targeting the recently revealed Tau gun batteries. The skies filled with Task Force Retribution’s transports and lander craft as the planetary invasion began in earnest.

Ask yourself, how many millions of Imperial lives were lost in the first hours of that invasion. All because of the incompetence of the Navy.

The Dominator-class is my favourite.

>It was the marine involvement that disabled most of those defenses, not the navy. In short, they cheated.

Alternatively: They have even a basic understanding of mixed warfare. You don't throw a single solution at all problems.

>the Imperium, however, had been forewarned. On Prefectia, Kayvaan Shrike had seen enough of Commander Shadowsun to know she would strike when her enemy was most vulnerable. Like clusters of angry insects, Imperial atmospheric fighters swarmed out to engage their enemy. Further Space Marine Drop Pods streaked downwards, targeting the recently revealed Tau gun batteries. The skies filled with Task Force Retribution’s transports and lander craft as the planetary invasion began in earnest.

You literally quoted a part saying 'Yep, the imperium knew this shit would happen and took countermeasures'

Carnac, nobody cares.

Go away.

This
combined arms wins wars, you can't defeat an enemy by throwing SEALS at it.

I'm not that sure comrade

Space Marines are rare. You shouldn't rely on them to solve all your problems.

The Marines did and warned the Imperium. Again, it's relying on the marines. That's cheating. Left to their own devices, the Navy would have suffered greatly.

If you don't like that example we can bring another. The World Engine? Heard of it? If you did, then you know that the Imperial fleet failed to stop that tomb ship which caused the deaths of many worlds.

I dunno, it's worked for ten millennia.

Besides, budget marines like Scions exist.

>The Marines did and warned the Imperium. Again, it's relying on the marines. That's cheating. Left to their own devices, the Navy would have suffered greatly.

Wait, so you want the Navy to take on ground force AND space forces on it's own or it's cheating? Marines + Navy took on Space Forces + Ground Forces.

>the Imperial fleet failed to stop that tomb ship which caused the deaths of many worlds
The fleet nuked it with cyclonics. The Astral Knights dropped the shields.

Let's look at Hive Fleet Leviathan now.

You know, when the Navy saved the day and the Ultramarines?

>Fucking Primarchs.
>DBZ shit
primarchs in rogue trader are normal space marines

>The fleet nuked it with cyclonics. The Astral Knights dropped the shields.

Without the Astral Knights, the World Engine would have continued its way to Terra. The Fleet failed to come up with any solution in dealing with the Tomb Ship. It took a chapter of marines who defied the marine task force commander and went on their own, to stop the World Engine.

>Hive Fleet Leviathan

You mean Behemoth.

And I count blowing yourself up to get rid of the enemy as cheating. What happened to effective tactics and strategy?

Posting the Orpheus space battle.

Crusader Class Cruiser. A 30k Design that was a Gothic on Steroids.

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Marines still have an equally important navy too.

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Once again, we see here that the Imperial fleet has under-performed. This time against a foe that they crushingly outnumber. The enemy fleet had less than a quarter of the number of the Imperial sector fleet.

It took a boarding action from the Space Marines to rescue the sector fleet a disgraceful defeat.

>40k wanks to the Marines above all else
>posts documents attesting to this fact
>no shit sherlock

What is your fucking point? GW considers it "boring" to have the heavy naval firepower win battles. Everything has to be done at the point of a chainsword, whether or not it's fair or makes sense.

In this case, they're fighting actual Necron warships. The same kind of warships (and I think even MORE warships) than were sufficient to breach Holy Terra's security, land on MARS, loot something, and GTFO as they pleased.

I would not expect the Navy to be able to handle that. No one would. Hence the Marine-wank shit saving them.

No one "crushingly outnumbers" Necron warships, dude. Even the Eldar would struggle to win with even numbers, and they've got Farseers and shit to help even the tech-scale.

Necron ships versus Imperial ships is like Space Marines versus Planetary Defense Forces, the quality factor is astronomically in their favor.

the necrons got wiped out after they set foot on mars

Mk2 sucks though, it's just not useful compared to the mk1 which can catch things at range with the prow lance easily. Mechanicus upgrade with shield sharing, strong shields and rapid shield generation, even blackstone fortresses don't do shit against 3 of these.

What do those people even do?

Well, my pa said his pa always pulled from this rope, and his pa before him and so on. So far has worked i say.

It was three light tomb ships and the defences of Mars only managed to hit them when they came at full stop above the place where the Dragon shard is imprisoned.

anything else on the necrons that did that

It's a planetary sized invasion, 20-30 million soldiers is nothing.

Wait.
Isn't Imperial planetary invasions usually in the hundreds of thousands? When did it jump to millions and billions?

Other than the fact that they wanted to awaken or claim the Dragon Shard? Nothing.

that might be for a larger theater of operation
and remember numbers for this kind of stuff have always been sketchy

>The Allies landed airborne troops to help disable coastal batteries on D Day, how dare they cheat like that!

Do you have any idea how stupid you sound?

Planets are really really big user and they are generally home to a lot of people. The Normandy landings had more than one hundred and fifty thousand men on the side of the Allies. Now take those figures from an action over a stretch of French coastline and project them onto an entire planet.

To be fair, depending on the numbers available, it would probably make sense to hit a single location or continent first to establish a beachhead so that troops don't need to be resupplied directly overhead from orbit. The wider the lane and larger the areas to be assaulted, the greater the corresponding casualties of the assault troops.

Then again, this is the Imperium we're talking about and they just might not care anyways.

Either the Gothic because I'm a Lance junkie or one of the grand cruiser designs because all of them look awesome and should have more attention in the lore because of their odd role, which suits the IN perfectly.

Jee user it's like retards only go in crossover threads

What isnt cheating to you then? How about the battle of Gethsemane, was it cheating that the Eldar showed up at the last second? Or the battles in The Emperor Expects, did they cheat by having numerous battlefleet partake against the ork fleets?

Have you read ANY books about invasions of this scale? Guard deploy in the billions. So do skiitari. You should see the size of a skiitari troop carrier, it dwarfs even Battleship class vessels.

Seriously, get Adeptus Mechanicus: Skitarius as a book or audio, it's entirely about planetary invasions.

>Which always makes me scratch my head whenever people have crossover threads and claim that Imperial ships are superior.

There's always a case to be made, don't get me wrong. But right now I thought the consensus was this:

Star Wars Empire vs 40k Imperium: The Imperium kicks the Empire's asses, with ridiculous overkill. As in, each ordinary Space Marine being roughly equal to a Jedi Master, and Farseers and Sanctioned Psykers BTFOing Yoda and Palpatine.

In space, it reverses, with Star Wars fighters sweeping away 40k's small craft easily. Imperial Star Destroyers are much smaller than 40k cruisers but similarly armed and shielded. Thanks to hyperdrive, they can outmaneuver and wipe out an Imperium fleet.

Star Trek's ground forces consist of pajama-clad hippies. Basically no chance vs anyone. Their space navy is arguably better but much smaller. Each ship has similar shields/firepower to 40k and SW, but much much much smaller. Again they'll be wiped out by Star Wars's superior hyperdrive and overwhelmed by the Imperium's numbers and ruthlessness.

BSG's ships are very slow compared to the other settings and their ships have no shields and much less firepower. Nice fighters in their setting but no chance vs any other setting's tech in space, and they can only beat Star Trek in an infantry action.

Babylon 5 is pretty much equivalent to BSG. Against one another, it would be quite a duel between the fighters. B5 has an edge ship-to-ship; their FTL is inferior but not grossly so. On the ground, equivalent.

That's pretty much what I recall from lots of discussions like this on Veeky Forums and /k/. It's a fight we've had often enough that at this point there isn't all that much dispute, even if we don't all agree.

Anyone else just hate the ranked mode?

I wanted a ranked mode where you could get all the upgrades and favours you could get on progression. But not need to grind 45 victories with each ship to get it.

Humble reminder that the best troops were concentrated at Calais, as the landing was expected there because some german spies switched sides.
The regiments at the other beaches were third to fourth rate (composed of invalids and cronically ill, thus not suited as mobile units) and only resisted at Omaha beach.
Even there most legged it as soon as possible.

40k often grossly underestimates the number of troops needed for these actions.

According to the Epic Armageddon book, the third war for Armageddon involved about 250 regiments. The Soviets-- and JUST the soviets-- had that many DIVISIONS in WW2. And that was just one army in one theater of the war. Divisions are made of regiments.

They fudge it a little by being flexible about what "regiment" means but the headcounts match up more or less.

I personally up everything by a factor of ten. So in Soviet terms, you use corps or armies (depending on the era) instead of regiments. Space Marine chapters are 10,000 each. Small craft flights are 200-400 depending on type.

The ships' carrying capacity makes much more sense as well when you do this.

So? That does not make it 'cheating' either.

Yeah, I'm not getting his argument at all.

Or even how any of it translates into one branch of service being more influential than another.

The Navy uses aeronautica and orbital strikes all the time in support of the Imperial Guard. Meanwhile, the IG, stormtroopers, and Space Marines do strikes to neutralize enemy space facilities.

This doesn't change a damn thing. His point is that shore batteries were eliminated by airborne infantry that had infiltrated in, in support of the amphibious landing. Meanwhile, the Navy used their naval guns to conduct a shore bombardment. You play every card in the deck, and that's not cheating and certainly doesn't prove that one service is "better" than another, and combat effectiveness doesn't necessarily lead to political and cultural supremacy in any event.

It isn't that there's a flaw in your argument, it's that your argument is made out of a long list of flaws lashed together.

Twelve minutes in the Chair of Correction, two days on bread and water while you pray to the Emperor for forgiveness, and read this ancient archeotech dataslate of "Inside the Soviet Army" so you can familiarize yourself with imperial doctrine.

Only skimmed the thread so sorry if it's already been said but the Navy is only lacking in power (and it is still considerably strong) because of the need of support from the Navis Nobilite and Ad Mech to function to maximum effect.

Meanwhile the army can't leave their planets without the Navy and the Navy can wipe out armies from orbit.

Of course all the elite/special ground forces have their own transports and even warships but even they seem to be supported by Navy ships a lot of the time.

>Star Wars fighters sweeping away 40k's small craft easily.
The small craft that's hundreds of metres long versus the tiny flimsy TIE fighter? Lol.
>Imperial Star Destroyers are much smaller than 40k cruisers but similarly armed and shielded.
Not even SpaceBattles agrees with you, especially now the EU is officially unofficial.
>Thanks to hyperdrive, they can outmaneuver and wipe out an Imperium fleet.
Hyperdrive requires a map or else you might just fly into a star.

Sorry, Star Wars lost all versus debates when the EU disappeared.

Because marines have neither the resources or the doctrinal need for a large space superiority fleet.

Needs more missiles.