So, what's the general consensus of the space marine version of rainbow/XCOM? Is it viable in Kill Team format or regular games?
For me, I like them as an allied detachment, and I really like the Corvus Blackstar not looking like typical space marine flyers. I even bought a Deathwatch Kill Team as a start, right now debating on which chapter should get each weapon.
So now that its been a few weeks, what's your take?
Idk, I think they made the fragcannon to powerful, you'll never use the flamerbolter. The watch commander is forced to use that one spear. The xenophase blade is ok, but only shitty chars can use it, and they don't get a bolt pistol. The shotgun is completely underwhelming. The chars can't get bikes, and only one guy gets a jump pack. They didnt incorporate the overkill chars, they are forced to be by themselfs.
I think they would be fun for kill team and as small allied teams, but they don't have that JuJu needed for full list fun.
I thought the shotguns sucked too until I realized that any veteran without a special weapon can get one for free in addition to their boltguns. Now they seem hella handy.
In addition? Dang that's pretty handy.
Yep. You can trade your CCW for one. I hope to god it isn't FAQ'd or some bullshit, but as it stands you can do the following that I think are pretty cool.
Stalker bolter/bolter
Bolter/shotgun
Bolter/melta
bolter/flamer
But would that mean these guys can't survive close combat?
bolt pistol/CCW by itself does nothing in CC
I love the models, not sure if I like the rules. There's a few odd things that still irk me
>Watch Master has no options other than Relics and Special Issue Wargear; stuck with 'nades, a bolter w/ Special Ammo, and a special beat-stick
>Watch Master seems to be an Assualt-focused model, but that can't take a Jump Pack, Bike, or Terminator Armor to get him there forcing him to Deep Strike, footslog, or be transported in a Vehicle
>Librarian's can't take Jump Packs
>Chaplains can't take Terminator Armor or Jump packs
>Van Vets can't not take Jump Packs
>Terminators don't get Special Ammo (other than this they look pretty good; I like how you can take only 1 in a unit and that you can mix-and-match Assault and normal Termies)
>Bikers can't take Special Weapons, only Power Weapons, Melta Bombs, and Teleport Homers (Again though, I like how you can take only a single model per squad)
>Dreadnought's can't replace their Storm Bolter with a Meltagun (not sure if this a thing outside C:BA, but I was expecting this and was let down)
>Dreadnoughts also have less weapon options than previous codexes currently since most supplements haven't and may never update to include C:DW in them
>Warlord traits and Relics range from lackluster to downright bad (subjective, but my personal opinion)
>Mission Tactics system seems kinda funky and tacked-on, but I've yet to try it out
>Formations are almost all a form of "Reroll To Wound/Armor Pen on "_____" Battlefield Role"
>Most Formations lock units together, even if said units move at seperate speeds and use separate tactics (Van Vets/Bikes stuck going the speed of regular Infantry, Infantry stuck going the speed of Terminators)
>No Lamenters' Shoulder Pads on the Veterans sprue
I live the Decurion and it's benefits, the Wargear options, Artemis, the Veterans, and the Blackstar, but the rest really needs some work.
maybe go easy on the listbuilding around that one gimmick just in case it is FAQ'd
I think mission tactics will surprise with how handy they can be
Actually, looking at the rules and kits, they removed any upgrades that there isn't a part for from GW.
Razorbacks only get Hbolters, Lascannons, or Assault Cannons, since those are the only weapons we have on razorback sized mounts. Very odd considering that Deathwatch are supposed to have almost the best of everything.
one thing I think you may not have realized is that that heavy bolter/heavy flamer combo is Assault 3 when fired as a heavy bolter. Pretty good compared to normal.
>Actually, looking at the rules and kits, they removed any upgrades that there isn't a part for from GW.
Yeah, I realized this too when I was flipping through the codex scans.
It also seems like they're only making options for the plastic kits, nothing resin.
Librarians can take Terminator Armor since they have two plastic kits that comes with Terminator armor, but Chaplains can't take Terminator armor since the only Terminator Chaplain kit is still resin.
yep. Kinda sad really. Gotta make sure those 3rd party bits makers can't make money.
Not that that will stop places like maxmini or whatever, people will always spring extra for alternate heads/weapon designs.
Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder if this new style will carry over to future books? If so, expect gutted future codices, with only units you can kitbash from existing plastics + one to two units that get a plastic release.
Eldar Aspect Warriors are FUCKED.
Tbqh I was surprised that Scorpions and Spiders still got to keep all their weapon options when 7e rolled in.
Not that it mattered for the former since Scorpion claw is the only right choice.
I guess being able to move and shoot out to full range is kinda useful. Two of them in a rhino and you have yourself a razorback/immolator.
If it was an autocannon, or more on theme had a special shot at a nice transport killing strength. Strength 5 ap 4 is so old school now.
>If so, expect gutted future codices
Jokes on you, I already Blood Angels and Tyranids!
it's pretty good, about what I expected
Would have liked to have more unique options on HQ/Terminator/Dreadnoughts, though. It's like they blew their entire load on the veterans and just absent mindedly threw together some token choices from codex marines for the rest of the book.
>no frag cannon on the dread
>no ironclad dread
>no terminator plasma cannon
>no terminator special ammo
>no terminator frag cannon
>captain/librarian/chaplain lacking bike/jump pack options
>kill team formations can only attach librarians instead of any character
didn't complete my thought... if the standard bolter shot was strength 6, or had an option for heavy fire at strength 6. it could be used for light armor too, strength 5 isn't really enough to shoot at armor.
Which, the frag cannon happens to be fairly good at, or extremely good at in addition to being good at infantry.
oh also
>no apothecary or techmarine options
god damnit GW put out plastic apothecary and techmarine heroes
>GW put out plastic apothecary and techmarine heroes
I already got my new plastic Techmarine, what are you waiting for user?
I know he's an Enginseer, but he's the damn same size as a normal space marine, and fuck dealing with finecast.
Fluff is solid, crunch is less so.
Deathwatch Vets are great (though the frag cannon is too cheap) and the Corvus is a nice and flexible assault transport, but the rest is a thoughtlessly thrown-together mess that probably wasn't playtested once and hasn't much care or effort put into it.
>make a big deal about Blackshields; only one unit can take them and they don't even get the good options
>dreads have a limited arsenal and don't even get frag-cannons, meltafists or better melee options (i.e. ironclad/furioso)
>vanguards must carry a jump pack
>bikes, chaplains and the watchmaster have barely any options; captain looses most of his when taking termie armor
>no sergeants for vanguards, termies and bikers
>no suspensors for regular old bolters; GW continues to forget the Salvo weapon type
>meltafist is nice, but no other fun stuff for termies
>10 special weapons in a squad with drop-pod access
>relics and warlord traits range from superfluous to fairly okay
>Mission Tactics boil down to looking at what the opponent has most of in need of killing and then picking that slot
>formations are boring as sin and badly planned (e.g. bikers and terminators in one unit); decurion is mediocre at best
>the repackaged kits don't match the actual DW kits at all; the DW vets, Artemis, the watchmaster, the corvus and the Overkill guys look vastly different from the other stuff
Look, GW, I get that you only want options that are in the kit, but the DA chaplain has a powerfist and the BA one has a jump pack, so at least know your own shit.
Also, since I forgot:
>no DW techmarines
>no DW apothecaries
>the fluff explicitly mentions that the DW has Stormravens, -talons and -hawks; can't field any of them
>no sergeants for vanguards, termies and bikers
Well, at least for the vanguards and terminators, sergeants are no different from regular unit members, the only difference is being considered a character.
The thing is, a challenge monkey in a squad like this can be super useful for throwing under the bus.
>>meltafist is nice, but no other fun stuff for termies
>not running 5 guys with lightning claws and cyclone missile launchers
Don't worry user, either we'll get a plastic thunderfire and tech marine box next codex or they'll cut it from the book.
Is the black spear formation worth using over the CAD. The little kill teams seem like the get expensive fast. My list so far has a captain and 1 aquil a team and that's already 400pts. Also is it worth giving up special ammo for terminator armour on librarians?
Depends on the squad set up, but generally speaking yes.
Is there a scanned version or something? I find nill in /40k/ general
Aquilla kill team with 3 plasma gun vets and two terminators with homing beacon. The squad has a corvus as a dt. It's the squad I'm going to run the captain with
I'm going to be participating in a campaign on Vassal in the next few weeks and I want to take the new Deathwatch for a spin.I know that in such low points it's going to be an uphill battle, but I'm up for the challenge.
Here's the rules for the campaign:
>No Flyers
>Each player will create two 800pt lists
>For each battle, the player may choose which list they wish to use
After each battle, adjustments may be made
>~150pts worth if you won
>~300pts worth if you lost
The other players are bringing Tau, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, Necrons, and Eldar.
It's pretty casual and a couple of the guys have never played before, so I don't expect Taudar tournament spam.
Should I just load a couple Kill Teams up to the gills? Or go more conservative and maybe bring in some allies?
What are your thoughts?
Here's what I've come up with so far.
Black Spear Strike Force
>Librarian: Mastery 2 , Melta Bombs (Goes in Squad Alpha) -130pts
>Squad Alpha- Aquila Kill Team: 4x Vets w Shotgun/Bolter, 1 vet w >Frag Cannon, 1 Biker w Power Lance, Terminator w Hammer and >Shield, Vanguard Vet w Power Maul
>Squad Bravo- Aquila Kill Team: 5x vets w Stalker Pattern Bolters, >1 librarian w Dominus Aegis, 1 Biker, 1 Terminator w Cyclone
>Charlie- Dreadnaut: Standard. In a Drop Pod w a Locator Beacon
Stategy here would be to Drop Charlie in turn one, DS Squad Alpha turn 2 and start wrecking face up close, While Squad Bravo pick off key targets. Beta has the bike and the termie, so the Cyclone can split fire. 18 Models is really rough though.
Option 2
Combined Arms Detatchment
>Librarian: Mastery 2 , Melta Bombs, Dominus Aegis (Goes in Squad Alpha)
>Squad Alpha- Veteran Squad: 10 Vets w Stalker Patter Bolters
>Squad Bravo- Veteran Squad: 8 Vets w Bolter + Shotgun, 2 Vets w Frag Launchers, Rhino
>3 Independant Bikes with Power Lances
24 Models is a little nicer, but still rough. Alpha is the same sniper squad minus the specials, but with 5 more dudes. Bravo will ride in the Rhino upfield but deploy as 2 separate combat squads. The bikes are there to harass flanks and be jerks. The twinlinked bolters with SIA are super good and since they can be aken individually there's less chance of them being wiped out in one mass of Pulse Rifle fire.
Alternatively, I could scrap the bikers and beef up the squads a bit more. Another couplefrag cannons, maybe put them in a drop pod?
Hard to say which I like better. What do you think?
The only thing fun in the whole codex is dropping 5 frag-cannons out of a droppod and turning on whatever doctrine matches the nearest unit.
Overall they're underwhelming, but the models are toit.
Actually, that's not true at all? Special weapons, i.e. DW shotguns, always replace the model's boltgun.
Option 1 has to survive until T2 with 6 guys and a dread. That's not goint to be fun.
Option 2 has power *lances*, which is silly by default.
Noticed something I consider fun.
>Death Watch's standard doods are Veterans with Boltgun and CCW. All models may take shit from Melee, Special, and Ranged weapons lists. Up to four may take from Heavy Weapons.
>Ranged weapons replace Melee weapon, Boltgun, or Pistol. Taking a Boltgun from this list is free. (So replacing CCW to Boltgun gives you pic related.)
>Special Weapons and Heavy take your Boltgun.
You can have your Veterans walk around with either a Boltgun and their Heavy/Special weapon of choice... Or take two of either and make your Space Marines dual wield rocket launchers for shits and giggles.
Fragcannon is strong but expensive, Flamerbolter is Assault instead of heavy and hands you versitile shooting. Captains can take Xenophase Blade. Shotgun is free and you can replace your pointless CCW with a free bolter. So you get all the shot varieties you'll ever bloody need. Overkill characters are all represented.
That's not a Tech Marine, that's an Enginseer from the Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard.
Ignore this post, I can't read apparently.
>>Watch Master seems to be an Assualt-focused model, but that can't take a Jump Pack, Bike, or Terminator Armor to get him there forcing him to Deep Strike, footslog, or be transported in a Vehicle
YOU HAVE A FLYING FUCKING ASSAULT VEHICLE
You can't fire both, though. Don't even get twinlinked. May as well just model it on and not pay the points.
I would be so down for that. I love the thudd gun.
Just so long as they have the option for a classic servo arm instead of the harness. Because servo harnesses look stupid.
See You can take the extra bolter as a backup. Since it's free and you /never/ need a CCW without a second one to add attacks. (In fact, if you don't have a CCW when in combat... YOU GET ONE FOR FREE.)
Bolter/Shotgun is 100%, any model in the veteran unit may take it, you just got more firing options.
Also, if True Grit still existed, it might've been fun to fire both bolters at the same time... Making you more shooty than Tau and have all those lovely ammo options.
I might actually copy that list or just collect the death watch models instead of playing the game
Has anyone uploaded the pdf for this yet?
Nah, no one's gonna bother when the ePub is pretty much the same thing except for fags who can't read ePubs.
I SHALL ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS, LOYAL CITIZEN.
...As I have the codex on my lap right now anyway.
Well, where is the epub?
>YOU HAVE A FLYING FUCKING ASSAULT VEHICLE
I have one as Blood Angels too, the problem with both is the damn Transport is worth more points than the damn Transported unit and thus it isn't really worth it's points as a weaponized Transport in most games
You're spending a minimum of 355 points (Watch Master is 175 and the Corvus is 180) on getting a model somewhere he should be able to get to already with his own innate mobility.
Even if you think that the Assault-Vehicle Flyer is a good use of points, being a Flyer it can't come in Turn 1. Instead you got a 2/3 chance to come in Turn 2 which is your next best bet.
Now that you hopefully entered on from Reserve Turn 2, you now have to spend a Turn or two getting in position to drop your guys off.
So now it's Turn 3 or 4, maybe even 5, the games 1/2 to 2/3 over, and your beatstick character hasn't even seen melee.
At the very least however, he can get into Assault this turn, and being a decent Assault model he may win it that turn! The problem then is, where does he go now for the rest of the game?
I sure fuckin' hope your enemy has all their army in one spot on the board or else now he's gonna be stuck waddling to a new Assault at Turn 4/5, and chance's are hes not going to make it there before the game ends or he gets shot off the board since he's only T4 W4 with a 2+/4++.
I just can't see much of an chance of the Watch Master making back his points deploying him this way.
Oh, and I hope your Blackstar has Found targets every turn too or else it's gonna end up a point-sink just like your fancy beatstick HQ.
The BEST situation I can imagine for the Watch Master is to just Deep Strike him in behind enemy lines Turn 2 (either footslogging or in the Corvus), and even then he's only able to Assault Turn 3 when the game's already half over, and even the the enemy has to be huddled around him or he's just gonna get stuck footslogging to them the whole game.
It's just not a good option to me.
Look in the archives.
That's been the case for ages. Go look at the Dark Eldar codex.
You can start flyers on the board as long as they are hovering
If you mean the one in the 40k general, it's not in there.
Literally the FIRST line in the BRB when it comes to Flyers is
>Flyers must begin the game as Reserves
Page 84, First Sentence in the First Paragraph under the section "Aerial Support."
You clearly don't know what archives are.
learn 2 4pleb faggot.
So is anyone going to try this little loophole? I'm willing to with my kill team.
Yes but you can replace any model's CCW with a boltgun for free. Did you even read the damn codex?
Not if they're White Scars (which, being on a bike, GW will assume by default; though players will most likely convert Ravenwing from Dark Vengeance).
In both fluff and previous editions of the rules, White Scars has power lances. And they've been implicitly legal for two whole editions now. Besides, it's not nearly so silly as it could be; I've seen people take them on Jump Infantry!
The point is, you can't fire two weapons in the shooting phase unless:
A) You're a vehicle
B) You're firing two weapons and both weapons are pistols
C) You have your own special rule to allow it.
Deathwatch Veterans with two Frag Cannons don't fit into any of the above categories... so why would you waste 25 points on the second Frag Cannon?
what, taking bolters+shotguns?
it seems intended, but why would you ever want to fire things that aren't shotguns
when you have AP3 and AP4 re-rollable bolter shots.
you are not knee deep in the dead
Pretty much this. Although I wish they would make it similar to a combi bolter with shotgun attachment if that's what they intended.
grimdark masterkey system, seems legit