Is it true that going against the whole 'older tech is better tech' idea commonly seen in 40K...

Is it true that going against the whole 'older tech is better tech' idea commonly seen in 40K, that 40K Space Marines are superior to their 30K counterparts?

Obviously they can't beat Primarchs or such but would Chapter Masters like Asterion make Grand Company Captains their bitch?

Their general power armor tech has improved, but astartes are generally on-par or mildly inferior due to gene seed degeneracy (losing certain implants as chapters)

A few items of equipment have also improved, but the general tactics are also different in many cases, as well.

So a mixed bag.

The thing is, during the Great Crusade, the Imperium was taking tens of thousands of kids from a Primarch's homeworld to turn them into marines because they needed warm bodies.

Ten thousand years later and now the selection process is a lot more rigorous.

The issue with 30k marines being 'inferior' to 40k marines wasn't so much that they were actually worse. They were deployed en mass and were considered expendable until they got enough promotions. And especially during the Heresy, there was such a high demand for war material from all sides, many marines fought with a hodge-podge of gear and weapons that they were either assigned, were given as a stop-gap (I know you're still wearing MkII armor, but all we have right now is a MkV shoulderpad and a MkIV helmet. Take it or leave it), or took from dead opponents.

Marines in 40k are arguably better equipped in terms of uniformity (everyone is either rocking MkVI or VII armor and weapons), and are able to survive long enough to build experience due to the change in general tactics. However, I don't necessarily believe that 40k are explicitly better than 30k marines, they just operate to better standards (Elite forces rather than front-line troops) than they did during 30k.

This. 40k Marines are Elite Super-Soldiers who are trained for decades and given some of the best equipment the Imperium can muster.

Actually I remember reading a lot about the approach mentioned, only it only stated that 30k Marines ware BETTER than 40k ones. That is basicaly because 30k Imperium was less retarded, the presence of their Primarchs, and few other factors. Don't remember source tho

one thing to at what what everyone else has said.
I think the idea that old is better come from that anything old and still working was the best of the best for the era, only the best are still being used for 10,000 years.

IMO, it comes from the idea that DAoT tech was waaay better than anything the Imperium could field now. Also, though armor have improved for the average marine, artificer armors are still magnitudes better than most, especially ones that were dated pre-HH

Think it was in one of the Night Lord's novels. Talos says it mockingly to someone

There not they are the same just fucktards on tg sperg.

>would Chapter Masters like Asterion make Grand Company Captains their bitch?
To answer your last question first, it depends on the character - Moloch's an absolute beast, but some, like Kharn and Sigismund would still give him a tough time.

Overall, individual space marines are marginally better equipped in the 41st Millennium - the armour is slightly better, teleportation transponders are more available, special ammo is better, storm shields and assault cannons are widely available, grav weapons were made.

That said, when it comes to relics, special weapons and heavy equipment there's no contest, the biggest gear of the legions and the room for specialist equipment favours them immensely

Additionally the training and indoctrination periods are much longer for 40k, making marines a lot more stable - at the worst points legions willing to accept tremendous losses from recruits and rushed conditioning could make new marines in a ridiculously short time, something like a year.
These were not good or stable marines, but they got warm power-armoured bodies on the field.

Tactically they're different, not necessarily better or worse - different deployments for different jobs

40k Space Marines pretty handily over their 30k predecessors. Marines in the 41st millennium have better power armor, better boltguns, and far, FAR superior experience. Most military action seen by Astartes prior to the Horus Heresy was against minor xenos races, and marines had extremely shitty recruiting standards as Legions. Chapters are far more elite, far better trained, and have extensive anti-astartes experience in combat, as they will inevitably face chaos space marines within their lifespans.

The only thing 30k space marines have over their descendants is

>Better Tanks
>Better access to areotech guns (volkite)
>Better Terminator Armor
>Better melee weapons

But these advantages for 30k marines is not NEARLY worth as much as the ridiculous experience 40k marines have in warfare.

>Is it true that going against the whole 'older tech is better tech' idea commonly seen in 40K, that 40K Space Marines are superior to their 30K counterparts?

Yes. Guilliman reformed the programs which had led to Legionnaires being created with physical and mental weaknesses.

>Obviously they can't beat Primarchs or such but would Chapter Masters like Asterion make Grand Company Captains their bitch?

Yes. Guys like Draigo and Calgar are primarch tier.

>Guys like Draigo and Calgar are primarch tier.
Have you seen the primarchs?
Almost without exception they will wreck Chapter Masters - only Lorgar unpowered, post-Istvaan Corax and maybe Dorn won't be a total walkover

I'd say this is a good point, even though the fighting of the great crusade was harder than most normal 40k fighting - there was just such a force advantage and such a short time period that the greater experience wins out

>Have you seen the primarchs?

Yes. Draigo defeated one and Calgar defeated the mightiest daemon of Khorne.

Hes talking tabletop stats, not marine wank.

Its relevant because the stats reflect a common consensus difference is power levels rather than one fluff writers fan fiction

>Almost without exception they will wreck Chapter Masters - only Lorgar unpowered, post-Istvaan Corax and maybe Dorn won't be a total walkover

Not him.

Seems to me he is talking fluff.

TT is not relevant because they barely reflect the fluff.

>Hes talking tabletop stats

I doubt it, else he could simply compare between the stats of 30k and 40k marines to find his answer.

>the stats reflect a common consensus difference is power levels

Stats represent what the designers think would be fun to play.

>Seems to me he is talking fluff.
No, the primarchs have statlines, gear, points costs, the whole nine yards.

Those three are the weakest - if I was going by fluff then Dorn would be swapped with another seeing as he killed him

If we are talking individuals then it HEAVILY depends on the legion and the successors

Blood Angels were FAR more stable in the presence of their primarch. His blood is a big part of controlling the black rage and gave the Blood Angels their nobility. In 40k his blood was diluted by the apothecaries and as a result the marines are far more unstable.

The wolves as well lost many of their superior tactics and abilities due to their full "embrace the Viking" move post heresy when Russ left. They functioned far more differently back in those days and were described as far more dangerous.

On the opposite end, the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Dark Angels have 10,000 years of tactical experience to put into their marines, countless new lessons and the time to make sure they were applied correctly. They would have improved.

The biggest change were the Iron Hands, who went from normal marines to logical death machines, probably the most dangerous with all of their implants. A modern Iron Hand would almost certainly smoke a legionnaire from the same legion.

Salamanders, Ravenguard, and White scars went from legions of diversity to more smaller experts of their particular brands of warfare.

The only thing legion era lose out on in equipment is that their power armor is slightly less quality, but unless they are marching around in MK III these changes aren't game breakers by any means.

40k marines also have a far more rigorous recruitment process and are trained for YEARS more, meaning better out the gate at least intellectually and probably have better muscle memory out the gate.

So individually, a 40k marine is probably superior to a legion marine in a vacuum. Better training and more resources to learn from leads to more informed and specific forces. Indeed, the concept of marine fighting is so ingrained in the 40k world that its an advantage. 40k marines were trained to kill other marines in basic training, legions in the GC usually weren't.

Stats in HH and 40k are no where NEAR balanced to each other and to compare them would be stupid.

Points also do NOT represent the fluff's actual depiction of marines.

A 10,000 year old veteran of the long war Khorne Berzerker is 22 points, but would be DESTROYED by a traditional Legion World Eater geared for assault at only 15 points, in lore the exact opposite would happen.

40K points are not lore representative at all.

And never said points at all, why would anyone compare points?

If points were being compared then the Legion Veteran squads are probably the best marine unit in the game for what they bring to the table.

Daily reminder that Moloc was about to get fucked up by Kutlakh if Moloc had never been thrown into the void in the middle of the fight.

If he ever shows up again, I want a rematch.

> I-I would have won... if only I hadn't lost
Stay salty Necro-fag

Shouldn't you be looking for your chapter master in space?
Oh right, you hardly have any ships left after the first battle.

>Less then 1000 marines crippled and defeated a necron lord and his planetary empire
>Losing to a chapter designed to kill other chapters, not even a xeno focused chapter
>Those marines and ships get replace immediately thanks to Highlords and chapter master is a computer program ready for insert into next marine
>we-we were victorious...
Say that to Moloc's power spear bitch. Now go off and cry more... oh wait you cant even do that... what a waste of a faction...

>The biggest change were the Iron Hands, who went from normal marines to logical death machines, probably the most dangerous with all of their implants. A modern Iron Hand would almost certainly smoke a legionnaire from the same legion
I don't know about that user, Great Crusade IH were a very strong legion indeed.

In the HH series, given that they lost their primarch right from the start they're the prototypical Shattered Legion - more fundamentally than anyone else, they're broken, and that makes sense: they lost their primarch, their centre, and the way in which it happened was anathema to them.

But pre-heresy, what little we see of it, they're shown to be one of the best legions - Manus was one of the first primarchs discovered (after Horus and Russ), and his legion has a legacy that shows it. Best at armoured warfare, great at set-piece battles, largest arsenal outside the IW but without the ridiculous casualty rate, G-man puts him as one of his most reliable and strong allies, and said he'd miss him the most when he first got word of Istvaan and thought all 3 primarchs their dead.

Overall they were a very strong legion - possibly the strongest outside the Big 4, though that's a topic of a lot of debate.

>>Less then 1000 marines crippled and defeated a necron lord and his planetary empire

Wat? Not him but have you read the story? I know marinefags are children but this takes the cake.

Moloc did not defeat Kutlakh. Moloc's marines died a man but he managed to injure Kutlakh before being flung into space. This forced the Necron fleet to retreat to regroup leaving enough time for the Imperial fleet which was decimated to a few surviving vessels to escape the sector before the Necrons returned.

The worlds and Imperial guard on them were abandoned to the mercy of the returning Necrons. The Necrons swiftly conquered the sector and started to move to the next sector.

Want to correct the mistake I made here - the book fight is true to tabletop, swap Dorn for Alpharius

It's less that Marines have gotten better/worse and more that the range has been skewed.

Basically, a Marine with a given level of training and equipment will turn out equally effective in both 30k and 40k. The primary difference is that since there are far fewer Marines total in 40k, you can afford to train and equip each individual better. It's not that Marines were somehow improved since the Heresy; they just dropped the bottom 80% of the bell curve from recruitment entirely, so the average jumped up.

>Necron planet sized deathstar destroyed by 1000 marines from random chapter
>Simple Necron fleet survived and beat back one of the hardest and best equipped marine chapters

GW lore is so inconsistent

Iron Hands were REALLY good in the heresy, no doubt. But one the Iron Hands went machine crazy they became monsters. The way their supplement and fictions describe current 40k Iron Hands these guys are all monsters, calculating everything almost perfectly. They lost their humanity but gained near perfect accuracy, timing, and functionality.

A single 40k Iron hand tactical marine, with all of their "upgrades" and tech is a candidate for best single base line marine PERIOD if fluff was considered. They literally took the Legion ideals and refined them perfectly. The GC era Iron Hand would look barbaric compared to the 40k counterpart.

The Iron Hands were one of the few that truly improved compared to their legion origins, as long as you don't count the "they lost their humanity" nonsense as meaningful.

They fluff has gone full retard for a couple of factions, and anything happening in the warp is always unsure.

Also
>greatest demon of khorne
Not
>greatest demon prince of khorne

The former is some big blood thirstier, the latter is Angron.

>Draigo defeated one
Inaccurate. Draigo defeated a Daemon Prince which had once been a Primarch. Princedom grants many strengths, but it also introduces a slew of new weaknesses, and Draigo was highly specialized in countering those strengths and exploiting those weaknesses.

Against a mortal Primarch, Draigo loses the benefit of the force multipliers and defensive measures which make Grey Knights so effective against daemons, and what's left is simply a well-trained space marine.

>>Necron planet sized deathstar destroyed by 1000 marines from random chapter

It's easy if you Emperor Akbar a fucking battle barge into the core of it and make it go kaboom.

>>Necron planet sized deathstar destroyed by 1000 marines from random chapter

Again? Again you fail at the fluff? It was the C'tan shard who "destroyed" the World Engine. The Astral Knights made a deal with it and released it.

Picture related.

Doombreed, who is a daemon prince of Khorne, is said to be mightier than the daemon primarchs. That makes him above Angron.

Huh, where's this new lore for them, clan raukann?
Still, sounds pretty cool, even if they are becoming cold hollow shells

I'm more familiar with the Heresy Era

Bjorn defeated Magnus. Bjorn doesn't really have any psychic abilities I am aware of.

Calgar easily defeated M'kar a daemon prince who gave Draigo trouble. He also defeated an Avatar and An'ggarth (the same thirster that Lorgar fought), opponents at the level of primarchs. Calgar is not a Psyker.

Older tech is better still?

An old Heresy Bolter/Autocannon is better than the ones in 40k?

Same goes for ships/vehicles and such?

It really is.

In the World Engine, the Necrons are portrayed as being rather weak, Like lords getting cut down with chainswords and no reanimation protocols or phasing out.

The World Engine itself or Borsis as it should be called was in the midst of a Civil war where quite a few Necron dynastys were fighting it out for control of the thing, The current leader taking it for a spin to Mars. Power going off in areas, Necrons fighting each other as well as the Astral Knights. It was hardly ready to fight the Astral knights who just found themselves in the middle of a power struggle.

In the End, they had to release the C'tan shard to destroy it using up whatever was left of the Astral Knights. It was just the World Engine present for this fight, no fleet and the way the World Engine choose to destroy ships was strange too, using a new way every time and only destroying one, as if they were pressing a different button everytime and seeing what it did.

In the Orpheus war the Necrons had a fleet, 2 tomb ships and a fuck load of everything else. When Moloc and his "elite" 1st company teleported onto the Dead Hand due to previous suicidal boarding actions to get a beacon on the bridge.
Kutlakh then went on a killing spree and tore through Moloc's terminator bodyguards like Butter and even fucked a Contemptor up. Granted his a Necron Overload from an "oldcron" Dynasty with added flayer virus flavour but we had the The Necron Overlord "The Undying" Get krumped by one swing of a dreadnaught fist, at the same time we had a basic Necron lord, Voidbringer nearly kill Tigurius in 1v1 and only failed since other marines showed up.

I'd love for the writers to stop protraying Necron lords as being made out of butter, rather have them like Arnie in terminator 2 where he gets assualted by every angle only to not move and inch and throw people left, right and centre and a sense of bemusement from everyone else.

Forge world fluff, best fluff

More commonly for vehicles and ships, smaller things have seen some improvements

Meant to add, the Undying and Voidbringer are from Fall of Damnos

>Inaccurate. Draigo defeated a Daemon Prince which had once been a Primarch.

Daemons are harder to kill than non-Daemons, this is why Grey Knights can kill xenos much better.
Daemon Primarchs are not weaker than regular Primarchs by any stretch.

So does the Iron Hands' super leet-ness transfer down to their successor chapters?

>Draigo defeated one and Calgar defeated the mightiest daemon of Khorne.

>30K > 40K

because of geneseed deterioration

and a lot of chapters are just totally inflexible in terms of tactics because of muh Codex

where did you read that?

yes, there were much more SMs but the capacity to produce equipment during the Great Crusade was more than able to keep up with the demand

and they are still not as good as the ones they had in 30K
they had more of the good stuff and stuff that they are not able to produce in 40K now

the grav weapons, different types of Dread models etc

and they used to rock the various versions of baneblades as well

>possibly the strongest outside the Big 4

who are the big 4 in the HH?

>Bjorn defeated Magnus
Who mentioned Magnus? I was talking about Draigo and Mortarion.