Make Warriors Great Ag-ahem, For Once!

Remove '5 foot steps' so casters actually need to cast defensively.

Remove all the untrained penalties to combat actions like trip and feint and make them martial class abilities

Allow fighters to change their weapon specialization with an hour of prep.

Rogue and ranger get the fighter combat feat progression in addition to their regular class feats, fighters get 2x the number of combat feats they normally do.

Make a full attack a standard action

Idea 1: Play D&D 4e.
Idea 2: Play OSR games.
Idea 3: Play Fantasy Craft.
Idea 4: Play Legend by Rule of Cool.
Idea 5: Play Anima.
Idea 6: Play Make You Kingdom.
Idea 7: Play Tenra Bansho Zero.
Idea 8: Play Dungeon W-- no, scratch that.
Idea 8: Play World of Dungeons.
Idea 9: Play Apocalypse World: Fallen Empires.

tl;dr Have you tried not playing D&D 3.PF/5e?

I wasn't talking about D&D though. I was talking about any RPG where people who can reshape matter with their mind are portrayed realistically. Like Mage games from WoD, though there balance is of lesser concern.

So strong they can compress air to pneuma-fire like arrows with their hands.
So loud they can murder by shouting.
So killy and honorable they become chosen of war god without knowing about hisn exisistence.
ATATATATATATA ORA ORA ORA ORA
So angry and determined they close their wounds with a thought
Superhuman speed, strength, size (for you), endurance

>Legend by Rule of Cool

Criminally underrepresented game system. Ran this with me group during the period when we were all sick of 3.PF, didn't like 4e, and 5e hadn't come out yet. It was pretty great.

And none of that will fix anything. If you want the martials to function against level-appropriate monsters at least, give them better skills, all good saves, basic mobility, detection and defensive magic at mid levels, and give the fighter actual class features. Martials lack survivability and versatility, not raw killing power.

But you can never make them equal to the caster, unless you either depower the casters to make martials full casters themselves.

>wasn't talking about D&D
>used D&D tropes
>used D&D OP image
>referenced D&D classes with ideas and opening question
Don't lie.

Steal their skills from ARPGS.
You can throw magic missile? Good, I can make a bone-breaking wave of force wih my shield.
You can teleport? I can get there a bit slower, but stampeding everything on the way.

So... Mage and Ars Magica, which are all about people who can reshape matter with their mind and where elevating people who can't reshape matter with their mind to their level would be utterly stupid because it would run counter to the core concept of the game?

Also, this .

> where people who can reshape matter with their mind are portrayed realistically
You mean they don't exist?

Sure, I guess, that does work.

Anyone got those "magic is what you define it as" pics?
I always forget to save them

The D&D dynamic of "mages are great in the long run but suck right now" vs "martials are great right now but suck later" can work if you bridge the gap a bit. In a Pathfinder game, I experimented by giving tier 1-2 classes "slow" XP gains and 5-6 ones "fast" gains, which resulted in our martials hovering 2-3 levels above the wizard for most of the campaign. I'd say it worked fine as a hacky solution - normally in 3.pf levels 3-6 are decently well balanced and things get bad after that, but in this game things felt balanced all the way to level 10-13 where we ended.

The Wizard was forced to be really judicious with his spell usage since he never had the top tier stuff the game system was expecting him to have, and the martials were able to really dictate encounters in ways they normally couldn't with the extra +2 to most things compared to their opponents. If you have the kind of group that can stick around for a dozen games or more, i would suggest giving it a shot.

yes, when talking about problem you use the most recognizable example and when describing problem you use most recognizable tropes

also "not playing D&D" is nice and dandy. sure fixes same problem in other games that are not D&D (or PF)

Simple. Make mages not actually good for combat.
Do you know what Merlin did for King Arthur? He didn't fight Arthur's battles or blow up armies with fireballs or slay no dragons. Arthur's knights were relevant in spite of Merlin.
All Merlin did was be incredibly intelligent, use magic to divine secrets and prophecize the future, and occasionally give blessings to his allies and curses to his enemies. He didn't zap anybody with lightning bolts or summon giant demons.
In most RPGs he'd be a diviner and a scryer, with minor focus in buffing/debuffing.

In fact almost all magic users across mythology are like this. Curses are the #1 most common order of magic across myth and history. I don't even know where the flying fireball slinging demigod image of wizardry comes from, because it's not folklore.

>5e
Martials in 5e are weaker, but it's because a lack of utility that magic provides. In 3.pf a caster is flat better at doing anything at all, in 5e you still lug martials around as HP sacks even if you DM is running the game shittily.

Even 5E doesn't have this problem, where a fighter with a greatsword will stomp the shit out of a wizard in 9 battles out of 10 by killing him in one action surge.

You didn't say "for all games" you basically called out the most mundane 3.pf reference point of "fighter = dirt farmer, wizard = God" and then implied "no weeb shit."

If what you are saying is true, then you are both shitty at communicating like a human being and this is bait.

...

A mage that can't fight, and spends their time scrying and occasionally cursing people doesn't seem like much fun to play, at least not in a d&d style RPG.

Just because you keep them around as meat shields, it doesn't mean martials don't suck compared to casters.

That's making an awful lot of assumptions.
A caster's strength does not lie in open combat, but in circumventing combat.

People who think this is intentional good design need to be exiled to North Korea.

I think this with just about every D&D design decision.

>A caster's strength does not lie in open combat, but in circumventing combat.
And they're fucking shit at that in 5E. Unless the caster gets the drop with a Hypnotic Pattern or something, putting someone out of the fight in one round is really, really hard. Keeping them out of the fight is yet harder. 5E does not have many save-or-loses, and has no save-or-dies (well it has one, but it's for Monks!).

there is no realistic portrayal, you can make them however you want. if you don't want them to be more powerful than ordinary warriors...don't make them more powerful than ordinary warriors. or don't make the warriors ordinary. or do what Mage does and make them seperate games. or do what Ars Magica does and make everyone play multiple characters, some magical and some ordinary.

but to be honest it has more to do with game design than how you fluff things. in 3.5e there were full caster classes that were weaker than pure martials. one of the most useless classes in the game, the truenamer, was every bit as magical as a wizard. the monk was magical (as you alluded in your first idea) but still terrible. the rogue was fluffed as having mystical powers, but mechanically poor. warblades were better than a bunch of casters like warlocks and healers. it wasn't a clear case of magical > mundane, because even characters with magic could be crippled by poor design, and likewise, mundane characters could be lifted up by improving their mechanics.

ideas like these can be helpful by giving you more creative space when you design a class, but they don't fix anything by themselves.

>How do we make regular warrior-types not suck compared to mages?
Let them have supernatual qualities developed from their trades. These will differ from magic in how they develop as the natural result of skill and dedication in an inherently magical world instead of forced training in manipulating magic and how they're used: instead of casting spells, supernatural powers simply happen and are just an instinctual part of how the character functions. The rogue doesn't cast invisibility, but when he decides to step into a dark alleyway to keep out of sight, people straight up lose the ability to recognize that what they're looking at is a dude in a hood lurking in the shadows and remember the event as him being completely unseen. The fighter takes a second to watch his opponent and perfectly predicts his next attack from watching him and comparing him to the library of martial maneuvers in his head, counters an attack that should have hit and then manages to do some badass wuxia shit.

Really, when you boil it down, magic is inherently superior to mundane. But magic != wizard and magically skilled swordsman != wizard with a martial weapon proficiency, and if you handle it properly (ie: not like 3.P) you can make that happen.

I like the idea of regular fighters being one of the few classes that have sufficient leadership skills to hire /and/ control NPCs.

So like the fighter class would branch out into 3 trees

Fighter - Regular sword and board dude, designed to hire other mercenary fighters or crossbowmen.

Barbarian - Two handed weapons/dual wielding, lots of berserker style abilities, designed to hire other berserker style tribesmen or animal companions such as wolves etc

Ranger - Ranged combat, bows etc, designed to hire animal companions

I think it makes mages and paladins still feel powerful but more rare and specialised, while making the fighter into it's own niche of being the experienced leader.

Run a campaign in a low magic setting
duh

hm, so basically like Conan, in movies at least?
>"I'm going to fight a wizard, so I go and recruit a wizard of my own before anything."
And then he beats the wizard because he has a mountain of muscle AND a pet wizard.

Oh, so you never played. I understand why you would try to meme then.

But the whole fucking point is that magic is supernatural and powerful, if it's on the same level as a guy who's reasonably swole and has a sharp implement, what's the point? You don't need any pacts with demons or wizard schools, just go to the gym.

The retard option leads to weaboo fightan magic because muh game balance, because clearly it's the game's job to make sure a farmhand with a cheery attitude and a sword is not gimped compared to someone who's got the cheat codes to the universe, right?

The sensible options are to either completely ignore balance and focus on making the classes function in ways that represent the setting accurately (because honestly, only retards play pnp rpgs and expect MOBA balance)

OR you limit playable casters to lame ones or apprentices, that are more on par with mundane fighters and whatnots. That way your setting can have awesome sorcery without also having knights doing kamehamehas to keep up.

Merge rogue and warrior type skills. High level warrior is both extremely agile and proficient in open combat. Other than that make every single spell cast be subject to a kind of AC/Dodge check and I mean every single one. You can even fluff instant cast speed of light beams autoaiming at the warrior to be dodge-able by just going with his mana senses tingling and the mage not realizing he was aiming at the warrior's position 0.2 second ago.

The problem is when this interacts with level/experience systems.

A "farmhand with a cheery attitude and a sword" is not equal to "someone who's got the cheat codes to the universe."
No one's saying they should be.

That cheery farmhand is equal to a wizard's apprentice, casting a few cleaning spells and similar.

Then after ten years of working together, undergoing the same experiences, having the same adventures, the wizard unlocks reality hacking, while the swordsman unlocks... swinging swords faster.

At that level, Fighters should be able to pull off some ridiculously awesome shit, because they're tough, strong, and able to fight gods with no problem. Like Diomedes in the Trojan war.

I did. Cleric. Single-handedly outdamaged and out-tanked everyone else in the party from level 1, including the Paladin.

>But the whole fucking point is that magic is supernatural and powerful, if it's on the same level as a guy who's reasonably swole and has a sharp implement, what's the point? You don't need any pacts with demons or wizard schools, just go to the gym.

the warrior doesn't just go to the gym. they have to fight for their abilities, the kind of fighting where being killed or maimed on a daily basis is a very real possibility, where you see your friends die in front of you, and have to not only kill scores of other people but also fight in close quarters with horrifying monsters, and no guarantee that you'll even survive let alone rise to the heights of heroic champions. and you're worried this path to power is too easy and not risky enough? i'd sign up for wizard school long before going on the battlefield even if wizards were only half as powerful as a good warrior.

Allow fighters access to weaboo fightan magic.

I'm serious.

Anime had martials fucking figured out. The problem is that too many of them are obsessed with slapping these powers onto 16 year old asswipes. A max level fighter should arguably behave like Zoro from One Piece and a max level barbarian should be as powerful as Berserker from Fate/Zero, a martial with a focus on archery eventually becomes a walking coilgun.

If you don't want to nerf magic users this is what has to happen to martials, you have to let them scale up.

This is sorta true. Clerics in 5e are monsters.

Ran a 5e game with some college buddies where I was a barbarian and struggled to contribute... anything, really.

Took a look back through the player's handbook and realized I would have been ten times better off just playing a War Cleric. More utility, more damage, and no stupid gear restrictions. Barbarian doesn't really shine unless you're doing a lot of encounters before you're able to rest and my friends just aren't into those kinds of games.

>I did. Cleric. Single-handedly outdamaged and out-tanked everyone else in the party from level 1, including the Paladin.
Literally memeing. Clerics have one damage spell, and two casts per day at level 1. Their cantrip is perhaps the worst damage cantrip in the game. Their weapon selection is significantly inferior, unless you're playing a War Cleric, who themselves sacrifice relevant spell selection and have a useless invoke divinity.
The only way you're out-damaging anyone as cleric is by casting Inflict Wounds with every single spell slot, and managing to not miss with your decidedly average spell to-hit since they get no features that help that.
5E clerics are shit after level 1. There's no possible reason for you to think otherwise. They have awful damage outside of Inflict Wounds, which is decidedly unreliable and consumes their very finite spell slots. They have next to no "utility". Druids and Wizards have plenty, but has nobody actually read the cleric spell selection, or what their spells do? Until 7th level or above, their spells are complete bunk. They have Bless. +1d4 to your to-hits so long as they maintain concentration. That's it.

Shillelagh. That was all I needed early on.

Less hiring wizards and more the group of underdog normals succeeding against a better individual. Basically the party of adventurers but on a smaller scale. It leaves room for individual roleplay but means that wizards can feel more like glass cannons.

That's a druid cantrip.

don't let rest-nuke-rest happen, they'll still eventually be more powerful but you can atleast delay it.

Dude what
DnD is the solution to DnD's problem. Just people don't want to change.

The typical person that plays a caster is a min maxing loser that wants an unfair advantage. They don't want to make room at the top. They want to feel important for one time in their lives. I completely agree. Maybe make it less cringy. But either give scaling or give some utility.

In another thread, we came up with three builds for a magic-free fighter to be effective. These builds were to be independent of magic spells, abilities, or items.

>Bruce "Rock" Lee:
The fighter who's just That Good. He can punch faster than the mage can cast, dodge Magic Missile, and sunder with his fists.
This is essentially Idea 1.

>Captain Charming:
The diplomancer face fighter capable of charming and leading others. He doesn't do magic, he's got a guy for that.
See also: >Batman the Beastmaster with Knowledge(Magic Lore)
Essentially, skilled fighter that's an expert in magic and methods to nullify them, and used beasts to fight them.
Kinda Idea 2 with a sprinkling of Idea 4 plus animals too because why not.

FYI: 3e is the only edition where they sucked. Here is a list of things the world does not revolve around.

1: 3rd Edition
2: The World Trade Center
3: The wee drowned syrian babby
4: You

I know. That's why I took it.

So you were playing variant human and took Magic Initiate?
May as well complain about a variant human fighter taking Heavy Armor Mastery and being fucking invincible against the kobolds he faces at level 1.

Nope, dwarf. Guess again.

Why not?

>Idea 2: Play OSR games.
This guy gets it.

Your magic user can have some great spells, but still can get his shit pushed in by fighters when he gets 1 spell in a turn (out of a very small number per day, no infinite cantrips either) and enemies have most of the combat round to interrupt it. And that d4 hit points and no armor doesn't help his chances either.

And none of this "I cast an extra spell on someone else's turn" crap. You get one spell, you have to declare it at the start of the combat round (before you roll initiative for that round), you can't move as far while casting it, and if you take any damage or fail a save before that point, you lose the spell and your turn.

>But the whole fucking point is that magic is supernatural and powerful, if it's on the same level as a guy who's reasonably swole and has a sharp implement, what's the point?
The point is that that's a false equivalence you fucking paint huffer.

Because in the world of godmode magic users and monsters specifically designed to challenge godmode magic users, a muggle with a sword is irrelevant. Mad optimization might turn your clone trooper into an ARC trooper, but he's still a nameless mook shooting his rifle in the background while lasersword superheroes affect the actual story.

Depends on system.

>magic is supernatural and powerful
Why?

Not at all. They can use swords just fine.

You're the vegans of Veeky Forums

Why does a guy with a sword have to be irrelevant? Why isn't he allowed to kill monsters and affect the story?

There are ways to make characters supernaturally capable without DBZ flashy lights.
Think about all the stuff Hollywood action heroes do that's just normal looking enough to suspend disbelief but would kill a normal person when added together.
Give your warriors that Hollywood feel. Have rules around debilitating injuries that they can ignore. Include sick parcour chases, not only with climbing and jumping but with swimming and dodging. Martials of course have the ability to hold their breath for longer and can use their full strength and concentration when doing so.
Your warriors could be able to move normally and continue fighting while carrying a baby. Ladders could be used as improvised weapons and stilts at the same time.
Then there's utility. A warrior should have some skills that serve him in-between the actual battles. Making camp, navigation, weapon smithing. Many systems already do this but if you think about it, the wizard should be a bit more sheltered. Since the caster has so many utility spells the warrior can never get, give the warrior some utility skills the wizard can never get.
The warrior could also get more of the social stuff relegated to him. Bluffing, reading micro-expressions, recalling prior exposition right at the relevant time.
There's a lot of ways to buff them without making them muscle wizards.

I'm assuming I'm being baited now.

Imagine this scenario.
The party has been hired to take back a macguffin from kobold bandits.
After they've murderated most of the kobs the last one grabs the item and makes a run for it.
They decide to run after it.
Instead of the combat ending and the chase being decided by an athletics check, it continues, but now the main goal is catching up to the enemy.
The kobold runs through a hole in a fence, the characters have the choice on how to follow it. They could crawl/roll through or they could climb over, alternatively they could find higher ground and observe the kobolds movements to see where it's going and if they could cut it off. In any case there's a map for the players to think spatially in and the whole scene plays out in combat rounds.
After a few round of continued running the non-martials are out of stamina and wave their compatriots to go on and save the day.

They're legitimate questions. After all, if they're as truly irrelevant as you say they are, they wouldn't exist at all. Why would anyone bother to pick up a sword when "reality warping " magic is a commonly available thing.

What I'm trying to say is that the only thing keeping martials from being as good, if not better than, casters is very arbitrary rulings by grognards.

It's fiction. There's no rules. Let people do what they want.

this

The problem with the fighter vs. mage gap, as described here, is that there are actually two gaps in place. You're imagining normal, everyday fighter-types battling awesomely powerful end boss mage-types, a standard underdog vs. overwhelming odds scenario.

The thing is, this isn't just a matter of fighter vs. mage; it's a matter of low-level vs. high-level. The "average normal guy" fighter is not the equal to a BBEG-tier evil sorcerer because he's not supposed to be; he's supposed to struggle against a nigh-godlike force and come out on top through cleverness, courage, the help of his allies, and a little (or a lot of) luck. How does he do it exactly? That's up to the GM to make it possible; they shouldn't be statistically balanced because the everyman's victory is supposed to be exceptional.

This is how I want mages to be balanced. Doesn't really work in DnD, though.

>Idea 4: Play Legend by Rule of Cool.

It kinda does because the big caster/martial balance divide is something almost exclusive to D&D and it's derivative games.

Well, post-OSR D&D except 4e. So basically a 3.PF and it's derivatives and 5e exclusive problems.

If we are speaking strictly dnd, there has always been a significant lack of high level feats (especially ones aimed at fighters). Pretty much all feats have a powerlevel of ~level 6-8 at best (some lower).

If the games had proper level 12-15 feats like "bat aside spells with your slightly magical weapon because you are really that good at your weapon" the game would work better.

Like, they could design a ton of feats for the 12-15 and 16-20 range that uses has a base requirement of "while armed with slightly magical equipment" (to keep things "real" and not turn into fighters into weeaboo fightans) that would let the warrior stay relevant in an increasingly magical world.

Alternatively you could play GURPS and have fun as you consider "feint, committed or defensive attack? At any target that presents itself or a targeted attack? Deceptive or rapid strike?"

That's got the opposite problem since standard magic is shit in GURPS.

Idea 1, kind of.
I mean they shouldn't be able to punch portals through space, that's dumb, but a fighter becoming super human at high levels seems fair. Inhuman strength, speed, and endurance all seem like they should be fair game.

Standard magic in GURPS is fine. Tl3-4 you can either play as a high burst aoe damage dealer with shit sustain/dps or you can play as a utilitarian/support with debuffs or heals.'

I've seen GURPS mages do some absolutely disgusting shit to charging cavalry using a simple grease spell.

Also dedicated healers in GURPS are cute! Super cute!

I want to play around the "no defense to back attack" metagames to tank for my healer because she is super cute!!

Just feint everytime and follow with a deceptive attack on the sword arm, that ought to work everytime.

You've been doing it wrong, user. Spells can be pretty powerful and definitely in-line with fighters especially at low TLs, though magic in GURPS definitely shines in utility more than in damage.

Fly and Expeditious Retreat.

Or you could just allow the high level fighters devastating magical weapons...
High level Mage items really don't boost the power level of said mages, especially in 5e.
Most of them simulate a spell they can probably ALREADY cast from their repertoire.

My campaigns Champion is pursuing the 13 ingredients needed to forge a sword of arcane steel (some of them, like Roc eggshell are very dangerous, others very remote) and he's pursuing the Expertise (I grant it with a feat w +1 stat) to forge it himself at higher level.

Will make a Keen Vorpal Sword (behead on a 20, critical on +1 range) with a couple of other minor abilities (basically a minor relic).

He's already got a Keen Longsword from pursuing a lesser recipe, and he's easily on par with the main spellcaster, who has good gear.

Martials keep up through deadly magical weapons, as they often do in Fantasy fiction. If you want them to be deadly against Wizards without powerfully enchanted weapons, like Conan or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, you have to run low-magic where high powered spellcasting has consequences and is slow to get off, where mages generally "Summon something horrible" or build a Golem and don't prismatic spray people.

Whaddaya know.
All written forms of those spells were eaten by a dragon long ago in this setting. They can't be learned.

It works every time until your opponents get proper arm armor.

Not to mention that if the GM does as MA recommends and remove standard attack, you still have to chose between offense or defense.

Not to mention that the right leg is the superior hit location you fucking noob. He can still move if you take his sword arm, which means he can grab you and ruin your mobility/action economy. Also face/vitals are superior for 1KO:s if you are in a rush. Fuken git gud you fuken casul

Or Kobolds negate such magics in a wide radius!
Or you're a complete retard!
(it's the latter).

The problem with just supplying them with magical goodies is that then, everyone who is a Warrior+ are even stronger.

For instance a Warblade with always be better than a fighter with Keen Vorpal Sword, because the Warblade got actual build options while the fighter at best could cheese a charge build.

Spells comes in 1-9 tiers of power, but the fighter's class features stayed at tier 3 and never progress

>you still have to chose between offense or defense.
So you always have to chose between +2 to hit/+1 damage(/die) but -2 to defend or +1 to defend but -2(or -1/die) to damage? Interesting.

Spiderclimb and Haste
Though at that point you're probably just casting it on a martial and sending him after the target.

Oh you are playing 3.5?
Nm, you have worse problems to deal with.
I have no interest in "fixing" that hot garbage.
I fixed it a while back by letting my books gather dust on the shelves.

Also no retreat bonus to committed attack. And with committed attacks you can take a -2 to your hit but get a double step. Defensive attacks bonus to defend is significant (you also keep your retreat), but that -2 to damage ruins rolls when a difference of 1 can make or break a major wound threshold.

Fixing martial vs mage balance in 3.5 is like asking for individual Guardsmen to be balanced against Spess Marines.
It's inherent in the system that mages have Phenomenal Cosmic Power. The best you can do is play some godawful splatbook Gish or uber martial.
Or simply play a better system.
Or deal with it.

I propose multiclassing into rogue and taking out the wizard when they don't expect it. They tend to set up alarm only when they go to sleep, so guess you can shank them while they're watching birds or something.

You DO NOT rush wizard 1 vs 1, fucker can kill you from distance.

When it comes to party members... Guess either letting martials have some magic trinkets or casters being beginners of sorts.

This is what I do. Casting time goes from 1 round to 1 minute. Applies to Clerics and Druids as well.

Fighters more or less become the only meaningful fighting class- fulfilling the role they're supposed to. Mages become out of combat utility, and assault artillery when you are the aggressor. Rogues remain as direct combat support and espionage. Clerics can kinda hold their own as tanky combatants but healing only occurs post-battle.

You have to rebuild party balance for the encounter though. If you're doing primarily hack and slash combat, you need primarily fighters. If you have a mage, you either have a large party to keep him safe, or you do without your "trivialize every obstacle" button.

I'm not really asking for a fix. I was just pointing out why the martial classes can't keep up. I used 3.x as a practical example because that's the one I had the easiest examples from.

Warhammer 40k did it pretty well. Massive penalties to using spells.

>You fucked up your fireball. Now it's raining blood. A demon steps out the warp and starts attacking your ennemies.

Why martials want to keep up with a Magnifficient Artisan of Gnosis? We powerfull, its true, but we have our power matched with tasks you would not understand. Please comeback to your undead\ork\goblin slaying duties and profilirate your mind with useless thoughts.

>Went better than expected.png

All demons summoned in 40krpgs go for psyker first.

>You can feel the daemon growing in power as he eats your enemies and his influence on the Materium grows. Having finished his meal, he turns on the party.