How do you deal with your players being somewhat dumb when you are the GM?

OP said that there were other prisoners in a cage next to them. I'd try to talk to them.

that's equally as valid as waiting for something to happen otherwise, but dumbo GM happens to like one of these choices more than the other

>Because "spending time" locked in a cage is usually a punishment. I can understand why they would want to skip it, as most people trying to escape prison do.

well but if they want that shit to last as short as possible then maybe skipping forward isn't the best idea. I mean how are they ever going to be aware of their surroundings if they don't check out the cage or observe the guard? Maybe the guard has the key dangling on his belt but they just haven't cared to look at him?

sure, but how the fuck are they going to escape if the GM just keeps skipping forward? It would be pretty cheap if the GM just allows them to sit on the cage and then eventually hands them their escape plan on a silver plate.

because the characters aren't real, and it's boring for the players to have to wait through time in prison?

obvs they're waiting for the gladiator thing, or to be let out of the cage in another manner - once you're in a cage it's not like you spend forever it in, especially in an adventure genre. just because they're not following the GMs proscibed way to escape doesn't mean that they're plan (to wait for a better opportunity) is a bad plan. it's even a more realistic plan

yes. Which is exactly why they shouldn't skip forward but weigh their options and actually fucking roleplay. Like what the fuck are you even saying? That the GM is just supposed to tell them how to escape? Or create a spectacle in front of their cell? Being captured and sitting in a prison cell isn't any different than puzzle situations in a dungeon. You weigh your options and gather information on your surroundings.

Why are the toppings of that burger on the wrong side?

and their choice was to wait for something in the situation to change, because being in a cage with other slaves who have told them that

a. there might be a gladatorial combat (fuck yeah plot and combat) or be moved to a slave mine (sweet we can stage a slave revolt or find gems)

so, b. they're obviously not going to be in there very long if they decide to skip the waiting part (as players).

in a variable situation, waiting for something to change is equally as valid as forcing a change. You're basically saying that they're roleplaying wrong, despite both options (wait, or do something) being equally valid

1. That's more than a bit retarded. Why the fuck would the NPCs put people in a cage that cannot hold unarmed, unequipped people? If they had a prybar or lockpick or something to take advantage of a weakness, this would make sense. But as the GM specially said no, it's fucking pointless.

2. They did that, that's how they got the arena info.

3. Really? What the fuck difference does that make? if it's random, it's random. If they get to pick, no shit they'll pick the best melee fighter. Either way, this information does no good ahead of time and drags the session onward.

4. Useless information. You're not going to plan on winding up there, and if you do and it IS inescapable, knowing that ahead of time does fucking nothing.

5. Who's going to tell you that? The Indomitable Golem Guard? Or the apparently all-knowing slave captives?

6. If you can lure the guard over, you can do a shitton more than just get the party split. But again, from what we've been told that guard is going fucking nowhere.

the big top part of the burger is to absorb the grease from the patties. whoever is holding the burger is holding it upside down

ITT the dumb GM tries to defend himself

But then the bottom flat part of the bun would be on top, and that's wrong.

>1. That's more than a bit retarded. Why the fuck would the NPCs put people in a cage that cannot hold unarmed, unequipped people? If they had a prybar or lockpick or something to take advantage of a weakness, this would make sense. But as the GM specially said no, it's fucking pointless.

even if the GM didn't intend for the cage to have a weakness he might be able to describe it with more detail (material, size etc.). Maybe any of the info he drops could be used to abuse a weakness that the GM hasn't thought off. Or maybe he actually planned for the cage to have a weakness that could be figured out if the players were clever enough.

>2. They did that, that's how they got the arena info.

no, they talked to the slave that was in their own cage, they never talked to the slaves in the other cage

>3. Really? What the fuck difference does that make? if it's random, it's random. If they get to pick, no shit they'll pick the best melee fighter. Either way, this information does no good ahead of time and drags the session onward.

well because maybe there is a very specific way they select their victims? Maybe if someone is disobedient in the mine. The NPC in their cell obviously fought in the arena so he could maybe tell them. If he just voluntarily joined then the solution is obvious, your best melee fighter is going to volunteer when they have the opportunity to do so. But if their selection is semi-random and they only select trouble makers then maybe your melee fighter should punch someone in their cage or cause some trouble at the mine.

>4. Useless information. You're not going to plan on winding up there, and if you do and it IS inescapable, knowing that ahead of time does fucking nothing.

knowing that ahead of the time means they can talk about it in the cell. If they are in the mine and guards are right next to them it might be hard to communicate their intentions to other slaves or other players without the guards acting up.

Maybe if you were a somewhat better GM you would start describing things in more detail while your players are stumped, and favourably some detail that the players can inspect more closely among the descriptions. And if you want the players to talk to the slaves, why can't you have the slaves start an argument by themselves or someone of them raising their voice or something to make your players focus their attention on them? Just *something* that will tell your players that the scene isn't over yet.

yo man youve been eating burgers wrong. It's serving flat side down, then eaten flat-up, so that the grease and sauce doesn't disintegrate the thin flat layer, but is instead absorbed by the thick top part. that's the whole point of the asymmetric cut bun

I had thought that these dms had gone out of style years ago.

The fuck do they still find players?

What country are you from? I've never in 27 years seen this.

Just because a guard isn't listening to you doesn't mean he can't hear you.
You basically set up a situation to have badass arena fighting with moral conflict and decided "But really I don't want you to do that, I want you to grasp at straws to escape even though in reality the guard would hear you scheming to do... what exactly? You already stated that there is no way to escape the cells.
You are a moron of a DM. Don't ever speak to me or my familiar again.

friend groups, probably - and the nerd in-group fallacy plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

>5. Who's going to tell you that? The Indomitable Golem Guard? Or the apparently all-knowing slave captives?

they might. We don't know how long they've been here. It's worth a shot, if you have a party member that has a valuable skill that could help the bandits then it's definitely going to help. Especially if that party member has the freedom to travel around in the camp and get a good look at potential escape opportunities.

>6. If you can lure the guard over, you can do a shitton more than just get the party split. But again, from what we've been told that guard is going fucking nowhere.

the DM didn't set up the rule "the guard is not allowed to ever do anything no matter what happens in the cage". That is usually something you learn by talking to the guard if he just refuses to talk to you. It's very likely that if a fight breaks out in the cage that the guard has some sort of reaction.

Nobody except GMs like sessions where you're jailed or captured btw, it's always the most mind-numbingly boring shit and everyone just wants to kill themselves, except perhaps the token thief character.

USA, Washington state - live in Canada now

just because people do something incorrectly more often than not doesn't mean it wasn't designed to be used differently, right? like chinese food containers - they open up into a plate for whatevers inside, not just supposed to be a little bucket. if you have ever ordered and gotten one of the classic white box-buckets you can see what I mean, the sides all fold open into a squarish plate.

shit taste desu. Being jailed is a great way for the players to do some extensive planning and use a variety of social skills to eventually break out. It's the reverse heist. Heists are also always pretty cool.

This.

It is like when gms feel like they invented the wheel when you use "captured" sessions to reset gear. Shit is annoying and means we have to spend time resetting numbers or throwing out any prep time we put in for situations.

As a GM I never force-capture players but if the bandits they are going up against are slavers and they really fuck up their prep-work they get captured. The only alternative is a party wipe.

t. GM

yeah but in this case its "you're trapped, with no tools, and a guard nearby to watch you that you can't influence, but there's this other thing that might come up later and be fun"

and then the GM gets mad when they decide to wait for the other fun thing

Who the fuck said that they can't influence the guard. They just can't talk to him.

I can understand that.

But there are a reason why people who have been playing for years reject them like the plague. Last major campaign I was in had two jail/captured session and the second brought the game to a stop. We gave up because the dm would not move it forward and we did not see his "obvious" solution he still will not share.

they're in a cage

with no tools or items

how the fuck are they supposed to influence him without talking to him

>like chinese food containers - they open up into a plate for whatevers inside
True, it took me 15 years to realize this because Chinese food places around me cram so much food into those boxes that they staple them shut. I think you may have given my love of burgers new meaning.

someone else already suggested something. Stage a fight. Maybe the bandits don't like their slaves to beat the shit out of each other if it's not in the arena. Can't hurt trying.

>dat webm

hey no problem my friend. try the pinkie-pinch, too, if you haven't already. thumbs and pinkies on the 'bottom' of the burger when biting (fat fluffy part), and the rest of the fingers on the flat top. Keeps the patty and stuff from sliding out the back while you bite it.

correct answer. Clever players will always figure out ways to gather more information on their surrounding. There must be a weakness somewhere.

Op stated the guard was to ignore the captives, who they use as slave labor and pit fight material.

What guard who would be trusted with this, by such a group, would give two flying fucks if one cage of idiots who might be adventurers thinned out their help they came in with?

and as someone else said, it can't hurt to wait for something else to happen either

>needing tricks to eat a fucking burger, the simplest of foods

Just use a knife and fork like normal people.

>Op stated the guard was to ignore the captives, who they use as slave labor and pit fight material.

yes, the same way parents would maybe instruct babysitters to ignore their child throwing a temper tantrum. I am sure that "instructed to ignore them" does not extent to absolutely everything. We are not talking about a golem guard that can not be influenced by anything.

this is the worst sort of advice and attitude. this is classic rolling with every skill over and over, taking 20s to find a chink on the stone, oops that's not the exit try again, endless boring 80s dungeon shit

...

it can't but it's strange that there is not a single player in the group that doesn't want to gather some information. Usually every player group has players that tend to be natural leaders or problem solvers across multiple campaigns and adventures. No matter what character they play, they are usually the ones who come up with clever ideas to solve situations. But if the entire party just acts as a dead rock as soon as they lose their freedom then that tells you that this party is going to be difficult to work with as a GM. I am talking from experience.

wat. A good GM will just straight up tell them after the perception check "nah, you don't find anything". He won't just let them roll perception on every inch in the cell just to fuck with them.

>needing utensils to eat food

use a blender, pleb

but this gm sucks

well how the fuck would you know? Did you talk to the guy and actually tested it? Because "we are in a prison cell" isn't exactly something I could use to randomly judge a fucking GM.

>not swallowing food whole
Fucking mammals

ITT: several retards that expect the GM to just hand them their fun on a silver platter

>not absorbing sunlight to produce your own nutrition.
Top kek meat monsters.

t.buttmad op

no kidding
at least one of these is the GM

>material plane silly-billies

ethereal plane ftw

I am just reading what other people write. I am new to GMing so I wanted to see whether people have some advice.

fast forwarding to the gladiator fights seems like the most fun option to me, seems like you have a pretty cool group of players
maybe the group can do so well in the fights that they are freed like Conan was, or maybe they can join the bandits

real talk; this game is about having fun. some people have fun solving puzzles, others have fun roleplaying dramatic situations, others like to have pretend fantasy combat

sounds like your group is the latter of that list, and that's fine, its just what they prefer

You're a shit GM. You shouldn't say "you don't have anything to use for an escape" and let your players experiment on their own. Maybe they'd have thought of some interesting use for something but you already killed it off prematurely.

Your problem here is that you've designed an encounter that begins with no tools. The players first task isn't to get out of this situation, it's to scrounge up some tools and see what they can do with that. That shit is boring and they're letting you know that they don't want to do it by just not doing it. Since their first inquiries presented nothing of substance, now they think they're on rails and they're waiting for you to take them to their destination.

A better jail sequence would start with the players witnessing some bandits handling some other captives. During this interaction, they see one of the more veteran bandits explaining how things work around here to a newbie, then they open up a cage identical to the party's and grab some prisoners out of that, send most to the mines and a few to the pits. Now the players know what's up with their situation and they have somewhere to start. You follow this up with a good description of their surroundings, paying special attention to mention anything helpful that isn't intentionally hidden (keys on a guard's belt, tools or weapons in the room that are out of reach, etc.) THEN you let them figure this out. What I do to make this a little less overt is I use that same description to flesh out the encounter, it's sounds, it's smell, peculiar details, etc.

No one should ever have to do an investigation to find their next course of action, unless you're playing a mystery game but it doesn't sound like you are.

that's not what I said. They don't have any objects ON THEM to escape. I didn't literally tell them "you can't escape". Jesus christ.

This isn't a fuckin MUD mate. DM's job is to make the game fun, not just real fuckin hard. It takes a very special group to have every challenge be a case of making something out of nothing.

Who the fuck wants to talk to a bunch of useless slaves?

You gave them the "arena" deal, of course they're going to wait for that.

>Bandits have autonomy
>they control natural resources
>there are so many of them that they justify the existence of a fighting pit for entertainment

Why does the game take place in central Africa?

they are in uncharted land. Our campaign plays at the forefront of a new expanding kingdom and the group has been sent out to deal with bandit enclaves that pulled back deep into the surrounding forest. One of them captures unsuspecting adventurers and uses them as slaves and for general entertainment.

it's like you've never been caught in a tough or desperate situation, you aren't just going to sit there and wait to see what happens. You have to try fucking something. It's literally just handing over all of your agency to other people. Fucking bad roleplaying.

But you gave them an obvious plot hook for what happens next: fighting in the arena. Sure, maybe they could escape before then, but obviously they're fine with the arena option. Why are you mad that they're taking the plot hook you dangled in front of them? Did you actually not intend for them to do the arena fight? Because everyone else sees that as the obvious route.

But the GM already gave them the arena "out".

They're waiting for what they probably see as the only real option. Though you'd think they would've asked the one who fought in the arena a bit more about it, or what the "object" was.

Also, if anyone at all in the part has magic, then yeah, they're dumb OP.

no, the arena was obviously one of the many possible options. I would have just imagined that any mage or thief type character wouldn't be so keen to participate in an open melee battle. So my idea was that while the fighter characters would decide that the arena was their best option everyone else would try to figure out alternative ways to find an escape route.

Basically all the information you had given them at that point was that they were on rails, first two attempts yielded nothing, third attempt gave them info about a future event, if I was a player I would feel that I had arrived at the information I was supposed to arrive at and then wait for it to happen.

Basically, the more a party strikes out, the more quickly they will cling to something that comes along. I mean that is just basic human psychology. It's called settling. Sure maybe they could find something else to do, but how much time would they waste doing it when an avenue has just opened itself.

I mean, what were you expecting them to do, the old "We got a sick man in here," bit? Where are they going to get the ketchup?

If they have a mage, an illusion spell would probably work pretty well.

>Basically all the information you had given them at that point was that they were on rails

wat. They tried TWO things, talk to the NPC in the cell and talk to the guard. The NPC gave them valuable information and the guard wasn't interested in a conversation. What "first two attempts" are you even talking about. 50% of what they tried was useful.

You took player agency away by locking them in a cage with no tools. They interacted with the only thing around them that responded; the friendly NPC.
I assume this took a while to get to with the PCs trying in vain to figure out what they can do.
Your players grabbed the only thing available for them to interact with, waiting for the plot to arrive.
The only out you gave them was being released and it's more fun to advance to that point than it is to make a frivolous attempt to get out of the cage while risking the guard poking you with a big pointy stick for getting too rowdy.

Obviously your idea was wrong. If you want to DM you need to learn to react to your players defying your expectations. I find it hard to believe you were this thrown by them settling on an option you clearly gave them.

you act like they had a fucking monumental task in front of them or something. If I was a player in OP's campaign talking to the NPC would have been obvious.

>I assume this took a while to get to with the PCs trying in vain to figure out what they can do

how is this even hard? The GM doesn't tell the players what they can do or not do. If they want to try something they are allowed to unless the GM shuts them down for some reason.

>I mean how are they ever going to be aware of their surroundings if they don't check out the cage or observe the guard?
you should... just... tell them?

wow you're a bad DM. if you don't want them to skip time, describe EVERY SINGLE DETAIL. Start big, then start getting more and more specific.

PS how were they "supposed to" escape?

>If you want to DM you need to learn to react to your players defying your expectations

this is actually the opposite, you are being very disingenuous when you make it sound like I was thrown off by their behavior. I was actually extremely stumped by how easy they tried to make it for me. Skipping forward to the arena cuts out all the prep work I did for the other options I thought off and doesn't even force me to improvise anything for solutions I didn't plan.

Assuming this is D&D, they probably took his components.

You are a fucking retard if you actually DM like that. The DM gives obvious information to its players. He doesn't fucking describe problems to solutions back to the players, that's railroading.

"Oh you guys are in the cage but you found a lockpick under some straw. What do you want to do?"

As a GM you describe the general impression of the area and let players ask for specific information themselves.

>not starting the campaign with a jailbreak
>not having them traverse through the sewers
>not having them come up to a tavern to talk and pick up a quest

It doesn't matter how cliche it is, shit's always fun.

Veeky Forums is full of turbo-autists that will tell you that prison-breaks are never fun in tabletop roleplaying games. I've been in multiple threads here that discussed this topic and it's been the same shit every single time. "hurr durr it's boring to just sit around". Yeah? It is? Maybe try to come up with a plan you pretentious douchebag instead of waiting for the GM to hand you the key through the bars.

>Skipping forward to the arena cuts out all the prep work I did for the other options I thought of

Welcome to being a DM. Some prep work gets wasted sometimes. They want to do the arena, so let them. What's the problem?

listen, I don't really have a problem with it in terms of DMing, I know that not all of my prep-work will come into play. But I imagined that the players know that the arena isn't exactly a great place to be for non-Fighter characters.

You are very excellent good yes at making the speech respondings. Many great reading done!

>If they want to try something they are allowed to unless the GM shuts them down for some reason
Did you even read the OP? Sure maybe they could have done more, they chose the sensible route though. Not everyone is going to polymorph into a dinosaur, trampling their comrades, most likely in the middle of a bandit emcampment with a guard on watch.
Especially after being shown what most people with the ability to understand social cues would see as a plot hook.

>knife and fork
>for a fucking burger
I bet you cut up pizza into bite-size pieces, too, heathen.

Nah, I disagree. The best is when they're all in a cell. You tell them that there seems to be no apparent way out. (This phrasing is important.)

Either they take it upon themselves to find a way out (and you let them), or, after a couple of turns of their characters getting to know each other, you let an opportunity arise or raise the stakes to force them to act.

Personal favorites are hearing screaming down the corridor, the prison is suddenly on fire, the town is under siege so explosions are happening, organized prison breaks, flooding, whatever fits and feels right.

OP just doesn't know how to DM.

Depending on the system, you might be underestimating what casters are capable of in single combat. "Squishy mage who needs a meatshield" is not the most accurate stereotype.

Either way, they decided to take the risk. Now they face the consequences, good or bad.

>yo man youve been eating burgers wrong.

Trying to break out, regardless of whether they tried to break out first or if the DM told from the get go they wouldn't be able to so don't bother trying (which if you did that is terrible dming) regardless that is the first idea out the window.

So then they try to get the guard involved. And if you want to get nitpicky I'll get nitpicky to shit, they could have had god knows how many ides to escape that involved the guard, bargaining with him, bluffing him, pick pocket, you could have quashed attempts two through fifty all at once. They talk to the NPC and they get information, information that seems to lead to what will happen next.

If you think these are the onl two ways to describe a scene than you really don't know anything about anything. Say what you will about adventure modules and boxed text, but read it sometime, you'll see it describes a lot of clues and points of interest that guide the players on where to start searching. Otherwise you might as well be playing Where's Waldo with a blindfold.

Think of it like a Point and Click Adventure. A good P&C has visual clues about what might be worth checking out. The book sitting out on the table versus the hundreds on the shelves. You won't know what's in the book until you check it out but at least you know it's there. A bad P&C has you clicking on everything until something randomly gives you what you need to proceed.

the issue is that I've done it like that in a previous sessions but usually the players instantly figure out that that's the item they are supposed to use even though it's not the only solution to the problem.

What were the solutions to the cage that you had for them or at least wanted them to try?

>you aren't just going to sit there and wait to see what happens.
You might. Granted, it's a good idea to see how much you can do before then, but sitting quietly and watching for an opportunity (to escape, to get ready for an escape, whatever) is a decent idea. A lot of the time in prison situations time is the one thing you have plenty of.

>It's literally just handing over all of your agency to other people. Fucking bad roleplaying
No its not. Good roleplaying doesn't require that you maintain your agency 100% of the time, it requires that you do what your character would do (and good roleplaying in a group is doing so without impinging on anyone else's fun or agency without their permission).

If your character would sit and wait, and the other players are fine with that, then I see nothing wrong with that plan.