Why the fuck are models so expensive?
It's one of the biggest reasons I don't play tabletop games.
Once you've got the mold shape you literally just have to inject plastic in and wait.
Honestly, if I didn't know better I'd be shocked if tough pewter models cost even half of what easily-damaged plastic models do.
1. the super overpriced ones are either overpriced because people will still pay for them or the sellers are idiots
2. plastic injection molds actually cost in the tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands to make and the market is not that big
I like dragons and blueberries.
What, the mold itself and not the machine costs that much to make?
The machine costs a lot, designing the models costs a lot, making the molds costs a lot.
It doesn't cost as much as you are making it out to be, user.
The reason plastic minis are expensive? Nerds pay that much for them.
post examples
I dont have enough information to make an informed opinion either way
I've seen an absurdly precise 3D print though, I couldn't see the level of detail.
So assuming a 3D model is actually possible to construct a mold with, I fail to see why you can't just 3D print it and use the 3D print as a male mold for a female mold, then cut apart the female mold.
...
>why not 3d print everything?
Because 3d printing is for rapid prototyping.
Injection molds are for mass production.
And a 3D printed model makes it much easier to create the injection mold since you just have to cement something around it.
Usually 3D printed models are too rough to create a good injection mold with, but when a slope looks and feels like smooth plastic rather than staircase, it's a good enough quality.
Several reasons.
First: Overhead. The companies that make the priciest models also run the stores to sell them. This is not cheap. See: GW. This is the reason that a store owner will give you if you ask him.
Second: Supply and Demand. There aren't that many people buying this sort of product, but the ones that DO are willing to put out a lot of money for it. So the companies charge as much as they can get away with. This is the reason that a customer will give you if you ask him.
Third: Parts cost. Finecasting and model casting is actually bloody pricey. Oldschool pewter molds are made of hardened rubber cast around epoxy forms, and burn out after repeated use, necessitating replacement. The finecast molds used for modern plastic sprues have a much longer operational life but require high-pressure injection molders to use, scaling mill machines to make, and quality tool steel to be made OF.
Fortunately, a lot of people hate the prices as much as you do. Ebay, user. Ebay.
thank ya thank ya
Buy a 3d printer either plastic or splurge on a metal one. Yea it's expensive but you'll save a fortune and have the same quality product. Also every year they get cheaper and more dpi
Get a job ya bum. Tabletop gaming aint cheap. Either learn to cast your own, or STFU and find a cheaper hobby.
Or you could print out flats and play with them.
Small scale minis like GHQ 1/285 stuff is actually pretty cheap, and its "tough" metal castings. 5 tanks for $11 is pretty cheap.
Injection molding is technically pretty hard to make, thats why little miniature companies usually start with metal or resin. It's not just a matter of having the molds, but also being able to fill the molds with the plastic.
You probably won't save money with a 3d printer tho.
i made some of my current minis with clay
they are not too precise on detail, but work pretty well in a way of representation.
that was the finished one
Depends on how many models you, how long you plan on using the printer, and type of printer you want. The materials for the printer both metal and plastic are dirty cheap so that's a non issue.
Super Low end printer cost ~$160. A good one cost ~$800. And a great one cost ~$1200-2500.
Honestly though I think the speed and quality isn't their yet. It can work and have great results but the volume and fine detail isn't there on the smaller models.
Give it another 5 year and it will absolutely be worth it.
You're saying it yourself, for this to be in any way profitable you'd have to print thousands of minis, assuming your printer has no problem either and you're getting the designs for free.
>tfw you bought a super low end printer for $500 and still haven't got it working
>tfw it'd be worth about $100-200 now
Come on. For the sake of argument let's say what's considered a $3000 hi quality one now will be about
But you aren't going to replicate 40k quality anyway, better compare to non-gw minis makers.
And now you're up against minis way under 1$ a piece.
Honestly OP, the models are expensive, but the hobby itself isn't as expensive as it seems, at least not at beginning.
If you don't have a lot of free time and determination (I assume you are not a neet) you probably won't be able to dedicate more time to painting than few, maximally a dozen or so hours a week. If you means if you're a beginner it will probably take you more than a month to paint a complete squad, especially if you're playing a faction with large squads. And that assuming you paint regularly. Buying a squad once per few months is not such a big expense after all.
Same with miniature paints, brushes etc. Sure they cost quite a lot compared to their bigger equivalents, but you buy them once, and they usually last for the whole army.
Here is what is really nuts:
Reaper models are around 6-7 dollars a piece, but nobody claims they are too expensive.
Space marines are 4 dollars each (box of ten for 40 dollars) and come with a ton of options and extra parts. And yet they cost too much?
>wah but I don't need 50 reaper models for a game
then don't play 2000 points. Play kill teams or combat patrol where you only need 200-400 points.
In fact, the new kill team box comes with a full space marine box (10 full marines with all the trimmings), a full fire warrior box (9 fire warriors, 2 drones, and the missile turret), the full rulebook, and a special set of kill team rules for low point value games. Even if you ignore the rules (which you shouldn't), that is less than 3 dollars a model.
Also I'm not saying you shouln't. By all means if you want to make your own minis with a 3d printer go ahead. It's your hobby, don't feel forced to do anything you don't want to.
Just don't justify it with lower costs because you'd be disappointed.
Niiiiice
>Have you seen how much 40k minis are now.
stop this
relative to inflation space marines haven't changed in price in over 10 years
It's factually wrong.
A box of Space Marines was 20€ in 2005, now it's 35. Cumulated inflation in the meantime has been 16.3%, not 75%.
Haha. Hahahaha. HAHAHAHAHAHA
Space marines are ten dollars a piece, Bitchtits. There are so many mini companies putting out shit that blows GW out of the water and at cheaper prices.
>euro
yuck
anyway if memory serves in 2006, a box of ten space marines was 35 USD.
In today's prices, that would be 41.78 USD, but they are only 40.
do you live in new zealand or something?
>anyway if memory serves in 2006, a box of ten space marines was 35 USD.
Nope lad, the yuro is right, I still have WDs from that time and the box was indeed at 25$.
Internet archives tell a different story.
Nice try though.
Damn you burgers were really shafted by the prices. Never trought the USD was that weak.
well it is what it is
doesn't stop people from complaining about the price even here in the US though
Thats kind of subjective and depends on the model.
For example, for $40, I can either get
>10 space marines from GW
or
>40 Soviet infantry from warlord
Both are plastic, multipart, and have tons of options. Just like anything else in real life, some companies charge too much, some charge reasonable rates.
If youre not happy with model costs, play historicals. Seriously you'll wonder how sci fi and fantasy makers can charge half what they do.
Also, if you're pissed about costs, you don't have to just buy 100% new at retail. Depending on what you want to play, used models can be much cheaper too if you're willing to put in some restoration work.
Also, you clearly have no idea how making models works as a business. People like you try to start up all the time and go out of business just as fast. Just look at Kickstarter some time. Everyone thinks "oh all I gotta do is make a mold and I'm set".
No one thinks of startup costs, labor, miscasts, storage costs to keep it in a warehouse, shipping, R&D on new kits, legal advice and lawyers, advertising, websites and webstores, random shit that always goes wrong like getting the wrong plastic/resin, delays, and this is all ignoring the wonderful adventure of trying to do any work with the Chinese without them robbing your plucky little startup company blind.
Plus it's a niche industry. This isn't something need like food or the internet, you're trying to sell models in the age of computer gaming. That ain't easy.
Well this is the absolute last place I expected to see that flash crop up.
Dragon Deep is best.
25k for a plastic mould in GBP.
>Reaper models are around 6-7 dollars a piece, but nobody claims they are too expensive.
>Space marines are 4 dollars each (box of ten for 40 dollars) and come with a ton of options and extra parts. And yet they cost too much?
Reaper sells character models and not rank and file models. A Space Marine librarian which is made of hard plastic, not metal, costs 18GBP. The Reaper rank-and-files are expensive, I give you that one.
>need models for DnD campaign
>buy pic related when on sale
Been working pretty well
Because most of the hard plastic kits out there are under 1$/mini
You want to 3D print a mould for injection moulding? Well now we know you have no idea what you're talking about. They don't make the moulds out of steel for fun you know.
>And a 3D printed model makes it much easier to create the injection mold since you just have to cement something around it.
The moulds are made of steel. You can't "cement that around" a 3D print.
People can and do use high quality 3D prints to make moulds for resin casting.
Why would you fuck around with 3D printing when making your own moulds and casting is way cheaper, easier and faster?
I've had a go at hobby level Injection moulding waste plastic in the past.
It's damned hard work.
I cast my moulds from cheap epoxy used for filling holes in cars.
My plastics were waste Polypropylene and HDPE shredd.
Some of my crap
The tub lids underneath them are the plastic they were moulded from.
Example of a mould before locking holes for the bolts and the Injection port are drilled.
heh, fair play for giving it a go
Walk me through making your own molds. I always thought 3d printing was taking over because it gave more options and easier customization. When you make a mold you had to make a pretty firm commitment from what I understand
Does anyone here have any experience 3d printing their own models? If so what software/templates did you use and where did you get them. I'm too poor to play wargames because I'm a pleb.
Tool/die drone here
I don't know their specific process how ever;
The cheapest mold still requires a shit tonne of build up (plates, bases, etc) as well as specialized components (lifters, slides, ejection in general) to be considered production ready and not a prototype.
My machine costs 200/h because they're expensive machines. My labour is not cheap. The mold designers is not cheap.
Steel is not cheap. Due to the pressures of injection molding you need specialized steel of you want to make it passed 5 shots. P20 is usually the called out material. Shits expensive to buy outright and in some places expensive to bring in if you're not near your supplier.
So on and so forth. The get one full kit of regular old space marines with goodies you are looking at 200k+/- depending on their specific procedures just on my end let alone their time sculpting etc.
Due to the very fine details of these minis they either need a shitload of cutting time (tools smaller than .5mm take for ever) or they need to be burned in with electrical discharge and that's a time consuming process as well. They are likely a combination of both
Then, after I'm done with it and edm is done with it it goes to a room full of guys to spot(manually work spots on the mold so everything mechanically fits together.) If I did a shit job this will take some time.
After spotting it goes to polishing. Imagine 5 Chinese guys at a work bench with vibrating emerycloth dildos and you are right. Polishing something that small is jeweler tier work and as such you either need to cut it perfectly(takes time) or you need very skilled polishers.
Then you have a 3 tonne mold that still needs to be shipped, operated ans eventually repaired when something breaks.
Plastic is cheap. Molds are not.
Greentexting, but only because this user hit the points I would want to say. Just adding my two cents.
1. the super overpriced ones are either overpriced because people will still pay for them or the sellers are idiots
Usually, not because the sellers are idiots, but definitely the former. It happens all the time in every market. Pop syrup costs next to nothing, but you'll be paying five bucks for a cup of 4 parts ice, 1 part pop at a movie theater. T-shirts cost nothing to make, but slap a brand name on there to show your social status and now it's fifty bucks. Make a plastic model, and depending how many you spoot out, the startup costs of making the casts will easily be covered after you sell a few hundred models, or make people dependant on them for a game, and you can charge hundreds of dollars for it.
>2. plastic injection molds actually cost in the tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands to make and the market is not that big.
It's true, plastic injection molds are actually way more expensive to make than pewter molds. That's why for a lot of minis that companies know they can't sell by the crate or are kind of obscure, they get made in pewter, only. I'm pretty sure that GW still has a lot of those, in spite of the more popular plastics. Some game franchises - Battletech, for example - don't have the limited selection of units (Guaranteed you need to take some sort of troop choices) with high sales volumes per unit (Hundreds of unique units with far more open ended army building - if even) means that they might move less than a dozen of a single unit type in a year, worldwide. That's why you only see plastic Battletech figs in starter boxes and pre-packaged lances.
But again, chances are these plastic molds pay for themselves very quickly thanks to the sales volume, otherwise companies would use more pewter. ...which takes us back to the first point.
Also, to OP, Pewter - not that tough. Just heavier.
Try Anachronism or Pirates poketmodels...
If you can find them, that is.
maybe try renting a 3d printer and making a million orks...
or tau
or space marines.
if you hand sculpt a model, scan it, you can make them for about 0.50 cents each.
or even program new poses into the machine.
Or tyranids and guardsmen...
$25 - 50 for two squads and a commisar... da fuq?
Where do you get the 3d model from tho ?
Also making minis isn't exactly fast.
There are plenty of free 3d models of anywhere from good to trash quality online at places like Turbosquid
Most free ones are just guys cutting their teeth
Honestly the painting part of the mini hobby never appealed to me. I have no artistic inclinations and I know my quality would never match machine painted or pro painted. The fact that for WH40k atleast you have to paint your own mini is one of the biggest hurdles keeping me out of it. I don't want to paint anything I want to have tactical warfare in a setting that I enjoy damnit.
And yes I know you could always buy them prepainted or pay someone else to paint them but with the price they already slap on those shitty unconstructed pieces of plastic already? Fuck that noise.
I bought like $25 worth of orks, and turned 12 into 70 boyz, Including both Sluggas and Shootas
also turned a squad of 5 nobs into 30.
the process cost about total of 60.
mind you 3D printers aren't widely avalable for rent in the private sector, this was all done renting one from an art studio. But when they become more wide spread GW is going to be hurting.
yeah but howabout custom models?
that's what real money is for, I'm not going to blow 200 on the standard ork mobz
Yeah Injecting the plastic is actually quite easy. It's the Mould making part which is hard.
I wasn't helped by the fact that the epoxy I used shrinks slightly - which makes it difficult to remove the pattern without damaging the mould (and/or pattern).
Should have used an Aluminium Epoxy meant for the job I suppose, but it costs like £45 per litre, which is just money better spent on Silicone and Resin.
If I revisit it I'll cast moulds from Copper. Making Plaster moulds then creating male copies of them in Investment Plaster, firing the Investment Plaster in a kiln then pouring Copper ontop them. Which should yield Copper moulds similar to the original Plaster ones.
>implying you can't 3D print steel
actually you can, though I prefer to insta-print the models from wholesale plastic spools.
Saves time when all you have to do is paint the clothes and dot the eyes on the orks.
It's gone. What's the title or swfchan link?