D&D 4e General

Thread starter question: Have you ever played a fox hengeyokai?

If you are GMing, remember...
1. To strongly consider giving out at least one free "tax feat," like Expertise and pre-errata Melee Training.
2. To use Monster Manual 3/Monster Vault/Monster Vault: Nentir Vale/Dark Sun Creature Catalog math. Avoid or manually update anything with Monster Manual 1 or 2 math.
3. That skill challenges have always been scene-framing devices for the GM, that players should never be overtly told that they are in a skill challenge, and that the Rules Compendium has the most up-to-date skill DCs and skill challenge rules.

If you would like assistance with character optimization, remember to tell us what the what the rest of the players are playing, what books are allowed, your starting level, the highest level you expect to reach, what free feats you receive, if anything is banned, whether or not themes are allowed, your starting equipment, and how much you dislike item-dependent builds.
If you wish to talk about settings, 4e's settings are Points of Light (the planes and the natural world's past empires are heavily detailed in various sourcebooks and magazines), 4e Forgotten Realms, 4e Eberron, 4e Dark Sun, and whatever setting you would like to bring into 4e.

Nentir Vale locations: web.archive.org/web/20130520012550/http://community.wizards.com/nentir_vale/wiki/Nentir_Vale_Locations
Points of Light timeline (ignore everything else on this mostly-fanon wiki): nentirvale.wikidot.com/world
D&D 4e Compendium (for those who still have Insider subscriptions): wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/database.aspx
PDFs for 4e books: mega.nz#F!REQ3iBST!3rWAyA2wX2HtrJF_CNcNBA
Compendium: funin.space

Other urls found in this thread:

enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468970-DPR-King-Candidates-3-0
dandwiki.com/wiki/User:Sigma_7/Broken_(4e)
funin.space/compendium/item/Blessing-of-Blazing-Fangs.html
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

>same image
>very slightly different question
How uncreative.

What is it with you D&D fuckers and foxgirls, anyway?

I think it's a meme?

I don't want to consider the other possibility.

If I'm rolling a Swordmage, is there any point to using any weapon other than a Bastard Sword? Would choosing a Glaive or a Fullblade offer any advantages that would make the AC gimp worth it?

Longsword.

Thanks for reminding me why no one plays 4e anymore.

I see almost 2400 games there.

That's a pretty far cry from "no one".

Is there any point in Reach for a Swordmage? I think there would be, as it makes "stab and run away" type game easier. So there's one idea.

It's only one guy, and it's always the same guy.

What's been your favourite race/class party composition that you've played in 4e, Veeky Forums?

How'd it go?

Drow Rogue
Halfling Swordmage
Human Fighter

We became pirates.

Besides Strike! RPG, are there any other games that derive from 4e? I'm trying to convince a player of mine to try 4e but they are adamant in never ever trying it because "they heard it sucked" but if I could get them to try a similar system they might be a little more likely to try it, right?

Unchained Heroes is kinda 4e like.

There's also 13th Age.

Never heard of Unchained Heroes but I'll check it out. What's the deal with 13th Age?

Has the CB links finally died?

Where do I get the offline character builder?

I just looked at Unchained heroes. This seems needlessly complex.

Yeah, I was getting the same feel from it.

13th Age looks alright but not quite what I'm looking for.

How do you speed up the combat and tweak the skill checks to make the game faster and less likely to bring about silly comments and keep players on task?

Have you watched the video explaining their combat engine? It doesn't do a great job explaining how it works.

I didn't see a video, I read a couple reviews. It scored well enough but the system looks like a little bit of a mess.

Stop shilling Strike!

Why does Veeky Forums keep shilling Strike!?

Put players on a timer.
No one takes more than 2 minutes to decide their action, period. Goes a long way.
As for skill checks, I never saw it as a problem, since skills a far more general and players aren't as hard up to have a decent skill set, so long as the DM can swiftly decide what skill suits what task.

I wasn't shilling, I was asking about other systems and preempting them from mentioning the Strike!.

It's a meme. Anytime Strike! is mentioned, someone posts that exact response word for word.

I've seen said meme, I just hate that even when I'm not shilling I'm called out for shilling.

Oh well...

Rapier, since light blades generally have better feat support than heavy. (Except if you're a githzerai.)

D&D Gamma World is the only other game WotC produced with the same combat engine as 4e. Don't tell your friend that it's based on 4e and see if he enjoys it.

I almost forgot about that. Huh.

I'll check it out and trick them into playing it, see how they handle and like it. Thanks user.

Alright, let's get to basics!

Why do you like 4e? What about it drew you in and has kept you interested in it (or drawn you in recently)?

Gamma World 7e, to be specific.

It was the first game that felt balanced, that everyone was able to hold their own no matter what in pretty much all circumstances (in and out of combat) while giving my imagination the ability to run wild. I could now make those over-the-top truly heroic (or cruel) characters that previous editions hinted at but never managed to achieve with out the rest of the game breaking. I could make that brave warrior that could go toe-to-toe with that dragon, the cunning thief who feared no authority, the wily wizard whose very presence was worthy of note by the masses, or the priest who could literally become a demigod in their deities service.

I don't understand why you can't create any of those characters in other systems?

Not saying you couldn't, but the mechanics and rules were outlines right there nicely and succinctly. In D&D's other editions I could roleplay that but the rules would more often than not limit me in those regards and other systems just don't click for me in their mechanics when trying to do the same things (GURPS would be the closest most likely).

It's not about "can". You can obviously create "guy with a sword" in any system but the most abstract.

The question is how much time that takes, and how well they function, both compared to the standards of their world, adversaries and other members of their party.

Although "literally becoming demigod priest" isn't as well supported in other D&Ds, now that I think about it.

Honestly the best thing to come out of 4e besides it's class balance would probably be it's Heroic-Paragon-Epic tier system. They not only expanded character options with out having to multiclass (usually) they provided clear and easy "stopping" points for either campaigns or characters. Start the game as a Rogue, then at 11 you are the best thief in the kingdom, at 21 you are the sneakiest bastard in the world and at 30 you can literally run away with your own destiny from the gods themselves. Name another game that actually provides outlines for games that do this shit.

There are four weapons a swordmage might find worth using, and one a swordmage might use for goofy builds

1. Bastard sword (obvious reasons)
2. longsword (doesn't want to spend a feat on bastard sword proficiency)
3. Rapier (wants light blade feats)
4. Dagger (only blade that has a superior implement, if the majority of your powers are implement powers and you want the accuracy boost)

Then 5. Spiked shield (for when you're maximizing your AC to ludicrous levels, at the cost of using an actually decent weapon)

A non-githzerai swordmage does *not* want to use a bastard sword, because weapon statistics are wholly irrelevant to the many implement powers (e.g. Sword Burst, Sword of Sigils, Dimensional Vortex) that a swordmage uses.

The spiked shield takes too great a feat investment to make worthwhile. If you want to use a Rhythm Blade for +1 AC and Reflex, then wear wrist razors. You will give up Iron Armbands of Power, but that is fine, since those would have been irrelevant to your implement powers anyway. By the paragon tier, you can use a Radiant Weapon and a Siberys Shard of Radiance for extra damage on both implement and weapon powers.

For non-githzerai swordmages, the longsword and the rapier are the best choices of weapon. Heroic-tier eladrin swordmages can make especially good use of the longsword with Eladrin Soldier, which should add +2 damage to both implement and weapon powers.

As for the dagger, I do not think superior dagger implements are worth dropping down to 1d4 damage per [W] for. As a swordmage, you should be roughly split between implement and weapon attack powers, and 1d4 damage is too great a sacrifice for half of your attack powers.

Epic destinies were amazing fusions of fluff and crunch in general.

Things like Godhunter, which made you more powerful so long as whatever you were fighting was stronger than you so you can literally hunt gods near max level. Or Grandmaster of Flowers, which let you pull super wuxia stunts like standing on water. Or literally becoming the god emperor of mankind

This.
As a DM, I can have most assurances that the party will be able to deal with the majority of challenges I set before them, and I do not need to look out for the one person whose concept doesn't match leather with the mechanics or some dumb shit.
And the system itself has a built in big damn hero narative, something most games do not even bother with when they aren't trying to be low power or gritty, and the ones that do, don't use a heroic/pulp style.

So if I'm going in as something other than a Githzerai, Bastard-sword proficiency isn't worth the feat, even if most of my abilities are weapon-based?

How about Archspell where you discover or invent a spell and literally become it? Then there was that one psionic one where you attune and become one with the universe. Good times and shit man.

Or the Harbinger of Doom where you become so unlucky that you get erased from the fabric of reality.

Or the Undying Warrior, where you effectively become completely immortal without the usual drawbacks of other immortality methods like lichdom

Or speaking of Liches, the Archlich who basically wanks in the face of Orcus and gets all the nice perks without giving away their soul

And what I really like about Epic Destinies is that while you gotta be a fighter to be an Undying Warrior, you only have to be any Arcane class to be an Archlich, and anybody can be a Harbinger of Doom or Demigod. It allows a neat level of customisability to your character's story.

An optimal, pure-classed swordmage is probably going to have a variety of implement attack powers such as Sword Burst, Sword of Sigils, and Dimensional Vortex. To that end, yes, a bastard sword will do you very little.

If you are not worried about being optimal, then you should not fret over weapon choice to begin with.

What sort of build are you aiming for, and at what starting level? I would dissuade you from a pure-classed Assault or Ensnarement swordmage, as they are weak mark enforcement and counter to the swordmage's playstyle; a Shielding swordmage or a hybrid Assault swordmage|warlock would be much better.

Much like the rest of 4e, what sounds interesting fluff-wise is not always what is effective mechanically. For instance, two of the three most powerful, "useful for any character regardless of class or build" epic destinies are also the most boring ones possible, Destined Scion and Indomitable Champion. (The third, the Keeper of the Everflow, is more flavorful. The strong epic destiny overall is the Topaz Champion, but that is only really for ardents and battleminds.)

>What sort of build are you aiming for, and at what starting level?
I'm going for a Shielding Swordmage, Tiefling specifically, and starting at level 12. Gonna load up on fire-based abilities, maybe even get the Master of Flame path to increase Swordburst to Burst-2.

So Yeah, not exactly optimised because of how many enemies have fire-resistance, even if I do splurge a couple of feats to get Burn Everything. This campaign's looking to be more about shits and giggles than others.

I'm trying to build my own version of a Wilder class (psionic implement striker that uses power points). I'm thinking standard striker HP and healing surges, proficiency in staffs, daggers and ki foci as implements, wearing cloth armor

Currently working with the class specializations of forceful Wilder (primarily force and fire powers, multi-target focused, uses constitution as a secondary stat) and subtle Wilder (primarily psychic powers, single-target focused, uses dexterity as a secondary stat) With all Wilder powers using charisma as their attack modifier.

Does anyone here have any ideas what sort of striker feature would work with this? I don't want to go fulls-sorcerer and just give them secondary-stat-to-damage, but I'm not sure what else works on a class that is essentially a psionic sorcerer

Test out the secondary to damage first, then maybe build up from there?

I've always been particularly fond of Radiant One. The earth is weak? Become the Sun!

Alternatively, for raw style, there is Dark Sun's Hordelord, or whatever it was called, where if you die someone else picks up your legend to become you, ensuring the legend never dies.

Is there ever a good reason to take a paragon path other than Kensai as a two-blade ranger?

The best bet for you would be a Firewind Blade-wielding swordmage/wizard/Malec-Keth Janissary with the Infernal Prince theme and the Hellfire Blood and Burn Everything feats, but unfortunately, such a build only comes online at level 16+.

The Firewind Blade can be quite tempting to optimize for, but it falls flat at anything below level 16 considering just how difficult it is to actually trigger the Firewind Blade while ignoring fire resistance and while using decent attack powers.

Stormwarden is the near-mandatory paragon path for Strength/Dexterity rangers, and there exist rather sturdy Strength/Wisdom rangers with the Pathfinder paragon path.

The Blade Dancer is an excellent paragon path for any two-weapon ranger as well. It is ideal for hybrid cleric (Battle Cleric's Lore)|rangers with Spiked Chain Training.

Stormwarden is better than kensai?

Better than untyped +4 to damage on the class that's the best at multi-attacking?

The Stormwarden is more DPR-oriented than spike damage oriented. However, if you are playing a Strength/Dexterity ranger, then you are probably not taking up a Strength/Wisdom Lashing Leaves nova build anyway.

>At the end of each short rest or extended rest, select one of the following damage types: cold, fire, thunder, or lightning. Your attacks deal 1d4 extra damage of the selected damage type until the end of your next rest.
So does this mean all attacks count as fire powers for triggering Firewind Blade's passive property? Does this also mean all attacks benefit from Fiery Blood?

>Alternatively, for raw style, there is Dark Sun's Hordelord, or whatever it was called, where if you die someone else picks up your legend to become you, ensuring the legend never dies.
That epic destiny was so fucking cool.

Yes, absolutely. Page 115 of the Rules Compendium makes this crystal clear.

Usually, the Malec-Keth Janissary is used for Lasting Frost/Wintertouched or Resounding Thunder builds, but you seem dead set on a fire damage build. Taking the Gift of Flame (level 7) alternative reward will help you penetrate even more fire resistance/immunity.
That said, such a build will only truly come online at level 16+, and to make the most of it, you will need to apply "vulnerable X all" or "vulnerable X fire" to your target to make the most of the Firewind Blade.

Another way to go about a fire damage build from levels 11-15 would be to play an avenger, a Battle Cleric's Lore cleric, or a paladin entering the Soulforged paragon path. That should net you fire and radiant damage on all your weapon attacks, thereby removing the need to penetrate fire resistance.
You can start with a Khyber Shard of the Fiery Depth +3 as your level 12 item, Imposter's/Summoned Armor +3 as a level 11 item, and a rare level 13 item which you then sell off at 100% price to finance your purchase of a Firewind Blade +3.
This build deals radiant damage as well, so you can optimize for the usual "radiant mafia" setups. That said, you should ask your GM if the Soulforged would cause the Firewind Blade's property to deal fire and radiant damage as well; this is a deeply unclear area of the rules.

TF, you understand the math.
As a gm, if my players go for flavor over optimizing, or just go for basic "this makes sense for my pc to use" synergy, will they be on par with foes from 1-30, if I base the common encounter on their base level xp budget?
If not, then I'll take your words with more care than I do.
>right now, there is no defender in the party outside the dmpc that is there for plot reasons
>he is also going to die
For players, if a fairly liked dmpc died offscreen, like literally other pcs tell your pc this dude died in a battle they were in, would you be upset ooc?

I'd be a little disappointed, but provided the way he died was suitably heroic and presented well by the DM, I'd be fine with it

You know your shit

How do I desert wind monk?

I love the fluff, especially if I'm doing it with a firewind blade for maximum dao-blade wuxia, but is there any feats/races/powers that are utterly required to make desert wind monks work?

He will die buying time for the other pc party (who hasn't met up with the existing pcs) to escape from a ceaseless horde of zombies.
>I am ripping off the Fell's Five comic liberally, it's a dragonborn fighter who will be dying of poison and chooses to hold the line.

Monks really want to have a club in one of their hands.

Otherwise, take the At-will that gives you the fire damage, the flurry instantly sets it off. That's the basic "combo" of desert wind.

4e has a much smaller gap between optimization floor and optimization ceiling than, say, D&D 3.X or Pathfinder.

The gap all throughout the heroic tier is relatively tiny. There are definitely losers (e.g. seeker, vampire, warlock [binder]) and winners, but even the losers can contribute well and the winners are not that much stronger than everyone else. A fully party-optimized group of PCs will never be more than just "moderately impressive."

Everything changes at the paragon tier. This is when lone characters can pour out disgustingly high amounts of damage with cold or radiant damage optimization (as this thread proves: enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468970-DPR-King-Candidates-3-0 ). Whole parties can be optimized to lay waste to encounters with mountains of cold or radiant vulnerability. Even without aiming for cold or radiant damage, this is when one-turn-kill encounter novas are at their finest, and when the majority of the exploits here become possible:
dandwiki.com/wiki/User:Sigma_7/Broken_(4e)

The jump to the epic tier represents yet another widening in the gap between optimization floor and optimization ceiling. With party-wide cold or radiant damage optimization and some method of ignoring resistances, most encounters with disintegrate. Even stepping away from that, individual, non-cold, non-radiant builds can achieve some spectacularly cheesy results using epic options. One-PC encounter attack novas can delete even solo monsters given enough optimization.

Characters will always be competent enough to take on level-appropriate encounters, but they can soar far above those encounter-building expectations given some optimization at the paragon and epic tiers.

So a not optimized party can punch in it's weight class, an optimized one can punch above it?

Radiant raffia parties are something a DM can easily deal with.

Radiant mafia parties are something a DM can easily deal with. Also weren't they erratad out already?

Pretty much. The worst fighter can still be decent if they just focus on locking down one enemy. The absolute best and most optimized class might be able to focus on 3 enemies at once in Heroic tier.

A fully optimal Desert Wind monk is a pixie (+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma) who wields a Goblin Totem dagger in one hand and a Ki Weapon club in the other, takes the Crashing Tempest feat, uses Five Storms against groups of enemies, and saves Blistering Flourish for singular enemies.

Pixies can "super-jump" over the battlefield to ignore many terrain squares and opportunity attacks. The Goblin Totem dagger is a reliable source of extra damage for a pixie due to it applying to *all* powers; it can come in accurate implement form too, and it opens up Starblade Flurry at the paragon tier. A Ki Weapon and Crashing Tempest Style add +4 to flurry damage.

Blistering Flourish causes your Desert Wind Flurry of Blows to gain the extra damage, because page 90 of the Rules Compendium would classify all flurries as "attack powers." This combo will matter less and less as you gain more encounter/daily attack powers, however, not all of which will be melee attacks.

A Firewind Blade would take a bit more optimization to make workable for a monk, especially seeing how monks are proficient with no heavy blades in the first place.

Yes, this is accurate.

Tier is *very* important, however. The jump from level 10 to 11 is a titanic leap in optimization options, and the same goes from the ascension from level 20 to 21.

Radiant mafia parties require a very blatant, hard counter: radiant resistance. It begins to look suspicious when the party faces angels after angels after devas after devas.

While Lasting Frost was *mildly* downgraded by errata, radiant builds were never touched by errata.

>The absolute best and most optimized class might be able to focus on 3 enemies at once in Heroic tier.

If you are speaking of multitarget defenders, the paladin's Valorous Smite and Call of Challenge affect burst 3s of enemies, and the fighter's Glowering Threat is a burst 2 that hampers even area and close attacks.

Swordmage fag here. Holy shit, this is all fucking rad.

Gracias friendo.

Is the offline Character Builder really gone?
No one can reupload it?
TF, you have advice for a heavy armor dwarf cleric that prefers to blast shit at range?
Basic ideas for a rogue?

Will you be patiently waiting for level 16+ to make your fire swordmage build actually work as a Malec-Keth Janissary, or will you switch to a melee divine Soulforger build and dabble in both Firewind Blade optimization and radiant optimization?

That said, there is another option if you *must* have a fire swordmage build from levels 11-15. Ignore the Malec-Keth Janissary paragon path, and instead simply invest in both the Gift of Flame and Blessing of Blazing Fangs alternative rewards. The latter has this property:

funin.space/compendium/item/Blessing-of-Blazing-Fangs.html
>When you take fire damage, you deal 2 extra damage with all attacks until the end of your next turn. You can choose to make this extra damage fire damage.

Set yourself on fire (obviously, you must be something other than a tiefling) and then enjoy your constant self-damage and Firewind Blade damage.

You could also be a firesoul genasi (+2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence) with Shocking Flame, but that, alas, will never apply to Sword Burst or Sword of Sigils.

Perhaps you might settle for a cold optimization build instead? Level 12 is the *perfect* level for this.

>TF, you have advice for a heavy armor dwarf cleric that prefers to blast shit at range?
This is nothing more than a standard-issue Battle Cleric's Lore cleric. Since you are taking up a +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom race, you could consider being a melee/ranged "switch hitter" cleric, which is fully possible with implement powers alone. Tenebrous Blessing is a great at-will power, and Death Surge is a fine level 3 encounter power.

>Basic ideas for a rogue?
As far as I am concerned, the optimal rogue overall from levels 1-30 is a bog-standard Brutal Scoundrel with a dagger, Light Blade Expertise, Backstabber, Cunning Stalker, Nimble Blade, Piercing Strike, Low Slash, Bloodbath, either Startling Offensive or Darting Strike, and Stunning Strike.

>Will you be patiently waiting for level 16+ to make your fire swordmage build actually work as a Malec-Keth Janissary, or will you switch to a melee divine Soulforger build and dabble in both Firewind Blade optimization and radiant optimization?

Definitely the former. I'm gonna cremate the fuck out of any goblin I see m8.

Here is what you should do, then.

Be a tiefling swordmage/wizard/Malec-Keth Janissary. (Multiclass via Learned Ritualist if you can meet the Wisdom 13 prerequisite, but if not, settle for Witchcraft Initiate and persuade your GM to let you gain training in a skill other than Arcana.) Take Burn Everything, Hellfire Blood, and Fiery Blood for feats. Your theme should be Infernal Prince, and your Expertise feat should be War Wizard's Expertise.

You should be entitled to a level 13 item, a level 12 item, a level 11 item, and 9,000 gp. Take Summoned Drowmesh +3 as the level 11 item. Choose rare level 13 and 12 items and sell them off during character creation for 30,000 gp, putting you up to 39,000 gp left. Buy a Weapon of Summer longsword +3 for 25,000 gp; an Amulet of Protection +3 for 9,000 gp; a Gift of Flame for 2,600 gp; a Khyber Shard of the Fiery Depth +1 for 520 gp; and whatever else you can afford for 1,880 gp.

The Weapon of Summer should give you fire damage on all of your attacks, qualifying you for all your fire-specific benefits. Once you hit level 16, sell off the Weapon of Summer in favor of a Firewind Blade.

I have to retire for the day soon. You will have to figure out the next critical step at level 16 yourself: gaining an item bonus to damage rolls that actually applies to your non-melee attacks, and applying vulnerabilities to fire damage or all damage that last for more than a single triggering. It is imperative that you do so, because otherwise, you will have failed to justify switching over to a Firewind Blade over keeping to the Weapon of Summer.

I'll get to scouring the compendium for what I need right now. Thanks very much for all the help!

>Khyber Shard of Fiery Depth (Paragon Tier)
>+3 damage roles to attacks using that weapon

>Stoking the Fire
>When you hit a target with a fire attack, you gain a +2 power bonus to your next damage roll with a fire attack against that target before the end of your next turn.

>Inferno Oil
>Standard Action to apply to a weapon. When you hit with that weapon, make a secondary attack (+18 vs Reflex): Target gains vulnerable 10 Fire (save ends)

So far so good, gonna keep looking though.

While I'm on the subject: Anyone else ever done an elemental-specialist build? How'd it go and why did you try it?