Making a game based on KEWL POWARZ instead of interesting characters

>making a game based on KEWL POWARZ instead of interesting characters

>calling yourself a ROLEplaying game

Seriously?

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> making an obvious bait thread instead of an intricate trap

> calling yourself a troll

Seriously? Also, we had numerous 4e threads in the last few days, almost a record amount for this year. Not satisfied with those?

Sigh. This thread again. I bet you're that kinda dude that sits at the table and shrieks: "I WUNT TO PLAY AN AVRAGE JOO CHARACTUR".
2/10 just because you made me reply.

No Scrubs by TLC is the greatest song ever recorded.

> average jew
Which systems will allow me to play as a merchant?

How does your character use those SPECIAL POWARZ and how do they feel about them being in their everyday life?

I don't think you're taking the roleplaying game seriously if you can't get a creative answer.

GURPS

>average character

What's wrong with that?

1. It's a troll thread.
2. It's Stormwind Fallacy, a belief that mechanical competence of a character prevents roleplaying and vice versa.
3. It's a fuckwad upset that all characters get to be flashy superheroes in 4e, not just the full casters.

Nothing or everything, depending on the game. In a low-power game I don't care if one of the characters is another character's bumbling butler, or a peasant kid who tags along because he wants to learn how to swing a sword. In a game that pushes for mechanical optimization, if someone brings Joe Average to the table he's just soaking up money and xp while forcing everyone else to pull his weight for him.

I love how you accuse someone of using the stormwind fallacy and then turn right around and claim that only casters can be be flashy superheroes because of the mechanics behind them.

Either being mechanically powerful and meaningful character expression are mutually exclusive or they aren't. The idea that martials can't be cool because the mechanics don't support them doing so is part and parcel of the ideology underlying the stormwind fallacy, and you can't dismiss one while supporting the other.

I love how you made an ass of yourself, but your post will be too old to delete when your calm down and realize it.

The thing with casters isn't related to the Stormwind fallacy m8, it's about blatant class-imbalance.

So which is the most fun 4e striker and why is it Sorcerer?

It's the Anti-Sue logic. I don't know if you ever had to handle that kinda character, but it happens sometimes in high power games. Everyone makes their characters, giving them powers and whatnot, and then That Guy comes, makes a generic dorf fighter and yells "everybody in this room is a filthy Mary Sue, luckily there's me here, showing everyone how a true ROLEplayer is supposed to act!".
Then he proceeds to play an annoying scottish midget with an axe, getting wrecked at every encounter and ruining every minimally elaborate plan because "m-muh roleplay ;_;".

>class imbalance
There is that meme again

The whole "Stormwind Fallacy" shit as applied here is retarded.

Firstly, it's not about "character competence" really. Yes, GENERALLY having optimized character within the bounds of the system doesn't make you better or worse roleplayer. But the "bounds of the system" is what's important. In some systems, like 4e (or D&D to be honest) making "optimized" characters force you into certain fluff combinations that generally are shit from aesthetic story perspective. Flashy fantasy superheroics is shit thier plebery, and you can't make competent D&D character that isn't flashy fantasy super hero.
You can optimize your character in many systems without getting into such shit, but D&D is not the case.
Optimization itself isn't bad, it is what you get in result of said optimisation within certain ruleset.

Secondly, and more importantly, as the first point is bit subjective, the resources for gaming, including mostly time and attention span, are limited. The more of those you spend on focusing on cool powers, tactical combat and tracking fuckton of numbers the less you have for roleplaying. Having overbloated passages containing mostly of "i use X", moving minis on grid and rolling dice breaks the pace of the storytelling and blurs out the focus.
Again it has nothing to do with "competent characters" and "optimization", because those are things that are about a singular player who deliberately does it, while those effect everybody playing such game wheter they want it or not.

>Flashy fantasy superheroics are shit tier plebery

Have you considered the possibility that your personal tastes may not, in fact, be objective fact?

>In some systems, like 4e (or D&D to be honest) making "optimized" characters force you into certain fluff combinations that generally are shit from aesthetic story perspective. Flashy fantasy superheroics is shit thier plebery, and you can't make competent D&D character that isn't flashy fantasy super hero.

The single most effective defender in all of 4e is 'Fighter with a sword and board, going for a very mundane paragon path'

>Implying
Now I know you're baiting. Even 3.5 fanboys admit it's horribly imbalanced.

That and the most effective striker that all other strikers are held up against is the Ranger who's mighty power is 'Pick one guy, shoot the shit out of him until he falls down'

And yet my regular group is still playing it and having fun.

>2016
>5e has been top of the market for 2 years
>4e has been dead/dying for almost 6 years
>salty Pathfinder fan lashes out as he sees his game in a death spiral, crying tears about its heyday when the edition war was in full swing.

WRONG!

It's the ranger who's mighty power is "pick one guy, hit him with swords many, many times until he falls down"

Bow rangers are good, but melee rangers are the absolute kings of damage in 4e

Ryuutama

I mentioned it is bit subjective, but well, of course you can argue that Slayers or Warcraft lore has more worth than Tolkien's works or Dune, or that Paris Hilton songs are better than uhm... let's say Death in June, thing is, that's exactly what would make you a pleb.

>mundane paragon paths
>using maneuvers that wouldn't be out of place in shonen anime
>BUT IT'S NOT MAGICAL SO IT DOESN'T COUNT HURR

Likewise, the most effective leader in a party with strong basic attacks is something as mundane as an Intelligence-based warlord/Battle Captain.

The part where all these martial characters become flashy is when they reach the paragon tier and collectively decide to become a "frostcheese" party or a "radiant mafia" to abuse vulnerabilities. In the latter case, they might even be Morninglords, paragon path-wise.

>melee rangers are the absolute kings of damage in 4e

4e's DPR olympics have proven this false at the highest levels of optimization, involving many a "frostcheese" and radiant build.

enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468970-DPR-King-Candidates-3-0

Rangers are among the best at encounter nova damage, however. That much is true.

>using maneuvers that wouldn't be out of place in shonen anime

Ah yes, the magical shonen ability to...disarm a man.

You know, you can enjoy both Dune and Slayers

I do

The same for RPGs, I like WHFRPG, I also like 4e, 5e and 3.5.

>making "optimized" characters force you into certain fluff combinations that generally are shit from aesthetic story perspective

Thankfully, 4e covers you here by (largely) separating mechanics from fluff.

>You know, you can enjoy both Dune and Slayers

Oh yeah, I love the one where people use the power of strange words to completely fuck with other people.

I like you

>implying this hasnt been part of our hobby since day 1
>implying that the success of games like WoW doesnt reveal what mainstream gamers (normies) are really interested in.

>Stormwind Fallacy
>using a fancy label that nobody outside a small circle of gamers uses
indie fag detected. how is the forge doing these days?

>high power games.
no, user, the That Guys are you and your friends

>Everyone agrees to play the same game except for one player
>Clearly the odd man out is not the problem and its everyone else's fault for playing what they want

You might just wanna look up the definition of That Guy, my contrarian asshole friend.
Seriously, you guys are on the level of vegans, when it comes to being obnoxious. Every time I want to play a low power game I have to handle massive doses of asperger, for fuck's sake.

>I want to play a low power game
>Agreeing to play 4e

For your next trick are you going to complain about not being able to play flying units in Black Powder?

Maybe, and I say MAYBE, when I play low power I don't use 4e?
I would say you're not able to read, but I still have some faith in humanity so my guess is "bait, and also a bad one".

Then what the fuck are you complaining about? If you dont play 4e when you dont play a low power game then why are you complaining about not being able to play a low power game with 4e?

Then again you never said that anyway.

little mixup I think

user wasn't complaining about 4e but responding to a different user calling everyone who wants to play high power games "That Guy"

yes because people who like high power games are cancer. literally.

Okay, but I still say that the dwarf player in is that guy because he is purposefully doing the opposite of what everyone else has agreed to do. Everyone else wants to play a high power 4e game, he doesn't, so instead of not playing or just going with the flow he purposefully disrupts the game.

>Stop liking what I don't like
Okay user, I think its almost naptime.

To be fair, you can absolutely play a low power game in 4e. Use inherent bonuses and tone down the fluff a bit and bam, low-power game.

While you technically can, its definitely not the system you should be using.

Nah definitely, there's better systems for it.

Just saying it's not hard to do low-power well in 4e.

See also: "my superpower is to hit a guy TWICE AS HARD from time to time"

Newfag spotted.

Stormwind comes from the (now dead) wotc forums.

I made a thread, some weeks ago, about how a great number of low power players were constantly assblasted about every other setting and style of play. Happy to see I wasn't wrong.

>I can grab a guy by the neck and throw him at his friends
>fear my arcane might!

just like I said: nobody knows or uses that term except for a small group of gamers. but it's a posh term, I'll grant you that.

>it's about blatant class-imbalance.

Damn straight homey

Mary Sues are everywhere nowadays. Exalted, Fate, Dungeon World, all faggot games.

>Nowadays
>Exalted

...Exalted is kinda a rather old game. It's old White Wolf. I wouldn't really say it's a new thing.

Seriously.

No, really, 4e is a good game. Played in it for 2 years, 2 sessions a week, in probably the best campaign my group ever had.

>4e has defenders, leaders, strikers, and controllers
>every participant PLAYs at least one of these ROLEs
>therefore we call it a ROLE-PLAYing game
Literally what is the problem

Taking the bait a little on this one but character class roles are not meant to define one's roleplaying, simply their role in combat. Outside of combat everyone is more or less on the same footing as it comes to on social interactions and dealing with the wider world. Want to play a gruff and mysterious person, raised on the streets? A veteran who saw too much in the last war? A bright-eyed former farmer who saved their farmstead and took off to the hills for more adventure? How about the cruel noble with dark tastes?

Did any of those last 4 define any class? Race? No, they defined a background and outlook, some personality even. You choose all of that and you roleplay that in your game. Maybe that veteran is a tiefling psion, the noble a dwarf ardent, the farmer an elf seeker, and the gruff urchin is a gnome vampire? The sky is basically the limit in how you play, it's just that 4e refined the races and classes to ensure everyone was more-or-less equal in power so there was no more "linear fighter quadratic wizard" or "CoDzilla"

We 4e general now.

>tfw plotting a Steel Ball Run homage campaign
>Race from one side of the continent to the other for a prize of gold and one wish from the king
>Shortcuts through massive mountain-ranges come in the form of dangerous, abandoned underground fortresses of the extinct Dwarven race, with bonus prizes for recovering artifacts from within
>Magical scrying-shenigans deter competitors from cheating or killing each other during the race, but it's open-season underground
>Whole thing is a conspiracy from several members of the royal court to attain divine artifacts once possessed by the dwarves (or at the very least clear the fortresses out for easy pickings) to usurp the throne, conquer the land and attain godlike power
>Every asshole with something resembling a mount and enough gold to officially enter has lined up to try and get their wish

>tfw thinking how fun it's gonna be thinking of encounters in the form of enemy racers

>basically the limit in how you play, it's just that 4e refined the races and classes to ensure everyone was more-or-less equal in power
You'd be surprised how many people I saw who fucked it up and made useless characters.

Yeah, if they try to do things they shouldn't combat can be a waste. Stay to your role, take a few feats to boost your capability in your role and then go from there. If you're playing a rogue, you're not trying to go toe-to-toe with the big bad in the fight, if you're a wizard you should be trying to mitigate catching your allies in your blasts, etc.

Sounds like something that could happen in Eberron, what with the conspiracies, the crazy artifacts, the race, etc.

>It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World - D&D Edition

>call user mad 3eeaboo is years late for his edition war
>responds with rant about 4e and anime
What's life like without a rectum?

Well there's gonna be Genasi and Warforged and shit, so it might as well be.

>Warforged racer wants magic lung-equivalents to be a famous musician

It's a game about combat roles.

I have struck a foe with an axe, and now he is bleeding!
>Burned at the stake for witchcraft

I now really, really want to play this game now.

AD&D

Basic actually has a Merchant class though (Republic of Darokin Gazetteer) and one based on the Italian Merchants called the Sea Prince (Minrothad Guilds Gazetteer).

If you roleplayed in 4e, it was incidental to the system.

It's incidental to any D&D system, that's just it. You don't play D&D for it's complex and ornate social systems, you just play it by ear. Every group has it's own way of RPing, some make heavy use of the skills (or non-weapon proficiencies) while others use general skill checks and others use no skill system for roleplaying but actually act the stuff out and yet others use some crazy mix of the above.

4e is just as capable of allowing the party to roleplay as any other D&D game, it just balances (more-or-less) the classes and races for the combat sequences. Also, you can also use your utilities and some items outside of combat to assist in RP as well.