/40krpg/ 40k Roleplay General

For the dude from last thread who was asking between dark eldar and kroot to take the role of Predator, why not just use the yautja? I mean, it's 40k. Millions of worlds and possibilities means just as many opportunities for xenos. Why not just run a predator and change it a little bit to make sure your players don't immediately catch on?

I've run the first four adventures of Dark Heresy: Shattered Hope, Edge of Darkness, Illumination and Maggots in the Meat. I'd say Edge of Darkness was the best, open-ended non-linear investigation.

Didn't they already make Inquisitor? Has anyone tried that?

Ah, that's cool! Reading through it gives me an idea on how to make/run a campaign for my players.

This is their regiment so far:

Hive World, 3/12
Melancholy, 5/12
Mechanized, 8/12
Die-Hards 11/12

Best Quality Flak Armor
Respirator
Stub Revolver
Chrono
Silencer
Melee Attachment

Chimera with Turret Heavy Bolter, Hull Heavy Flamer, and Pintle Heavy Stubber.

I have a Ratling, Commissar, Weapons Specialist, Enginseer, Medic, and Operator.

How'd they do?

>3 support specialists out of 6
Okay then.

Nice chimera though.

>Silencer
For what reason?

>most "symbolic" encounter

BBEG fight of our first DH campaign, as it was the culmination of the party best attributes:
>stealth: we stalked Inquisitor Mavqash (our radical ex-boss) for months across the Segmentum Solar, he noticed that we were alive (he thought he had killed us) only when we crashed his chaos ritual, without survivors
>tactical coordination: flawless teamwork between an assassin, a techpriest, a guardsman, a seamstress and a Space Wolf Wolfblade
>cold brutality: to Mavqash “How did you get a Space Marine?” we only answered with a “We borrowed him.”, then proceeded to shoot that heretic until the ritual collapsed and lobbed grenades into the rift when deamons dragged him into the warp
The party then disappeared to bring the Emperor’s light (and fury) elsewhere.

I've been planning on DMing 2nd Edition Dark Heresy for my friends, but I've scoured the internet and people have been complaining about all the flaws to the system that I've intimidated myself into not doing it.

Are there any realistic merits to these complaints or am I just scaring myself out of a fun opportunity with friends?

Depends on which complaints you're referring to.

Possibly for the revolver?

>three support specialists

Hate to say it, m8, but 'Support Specialist' is (often) code for 'I don't want to be part of a cool group effort.'

And depending on the exact nature of the Support Specialist taken, it can also be 'I want to be a kender' (which is bad), and 'I want to shoot the other PCs and get away with it' (which is bad).

Make it clear that the Commissar doesn't actual tactical authority. One of the Guardsmen in the squad should (pick one). It's the squad leader's job to order a guy to take a hill. It's the Commissar's job to shoot him when he says no.

The Operator and the Enginseer will either get along GREAT or one will outperform the other and render them redundant.

The regiment itself looks fine, but with some weird kit selections (chronos make a degree of sense for timed missions, rendezvous, planning, etc., but the silencer with a regiment that doesn't use a lot of solid-projectile weapons doesn't add up - respirators are good no matter what, and high-quality armor is always helpful, but pricey. The melee attachment has its uses if you're not using a chainsword already, and a sidearm is a pretty common option).

Melancholy is an OK option. Hive Worlds a best.

Good thing they got rid of them in BC and OW and 2e.

Stupid ass shit they are

It's fine, just remember to give the players a +30 to +60 bonus on most rolls. Otherwise they'll be drowning in failure left and right. Also giving them 1000 extra starting XP tends to make them less likely to fail a skill check.

>For what reason?
They all thought using shotguns and autoguns would be cool.

>Nice chimera though.
Thanks user!

>Hate to say it, m8, but 'Support Specialist' is (often) code for 'I don't want to be part of a cool group effort.'
Eh, none of us have ever played anything other than 3.5e, until I convinced them to try this out. They think it's cool, and my /v/ermin autist friend absolutely loves 40k.

>Make it clear that the Commissar doesn't actual tactical authority. One of the Guardsmen in the squad should (pick one). It's the squad leader's job to order a guy to take a hill. It's the Commissar's job to shoot him when he says no.
Good idea, thanks for reminding me, user!

I vaguely remember complaints about the 2nd edition being too close to Only War.

PC's being grossly underpowered to some of the weakest enemies right out of the gate.

Influence being a broken and/or weird system.

Really I just want to know that if I was to run Dark Heresy should I go with 1st or 2nd edition and if there is anything I need to modify to prevent the PC's from breaking the game.

>my /v/ermin autist friend absolutely loves 40k
Prepare to hear disgusting amounts of 10 year old memes.

>PC's being grossly underpowered to some of the weakest enemies right out of the gate.
Compared to 1e, they're way higher up. It really depends on the level you want to run them.

3000 XP is an experienced band of Acolytes that should be able to do most things will and shoot their ways out of most problems.

Oh, I know.

>they all thought using shotguns and autoguns would be cool
They ARE cool. Similar enough to lasguns that you aren't losing out on too much but Reliable and ammunition capacity/logistics--but if you're in a well-enough supplied regiment those logistics shouldn't be a problem in the first place, and the only regiments who wouldn't be that well supplied are Feudal and other shit like that--but also with fully-automatic fire and the option to take more ammo types and mods.

On another note for Commissars, make it clear to him that all the best Commissars inspire the troops with wordplay and strong rhetoric, and generally display a lot of competence instead of just shooting Guardsmen that try and retreat.

Point out the use of the Inspire special use of the Command skill.

>GLORY TO THE FIRST MAN THAT DIES
>GET SOME FIGHT INTO YOU, GUARDSMAN
>RAZOR SHARP, YOU ARE! NOTHING CAN STOP YOU NOW!
>BE LIKE GENERAL TARSUS OF YORE! BULLETPROOF AND FREE OF FEAR!
>DRAW STRENGTH FROM ME! YOU WILL NEVER RETREAT!

youtube.com/watch?v=nb6cSEI1FLk

>Too close to Only War
Debateable on whether or not that's bad.

>PCs being grossly underpowered to some of the weakest enemies right out of the gate.

Dark Heresy is not a combat-oriented RPG, it's meant for investigation and horror with a decent action component. The PCs can generally handle it.

>Influence

A lot of people will disagree with me, but it is absolutely awful. Use the money mechanic from DH1e.

>1st or 2nd edition

2nd, without question.

This guy is fucking lying, ignore him.

I'm convinced that GW will try to remake a lot of these products (but I think that Fury will be gone). Furthermore, they will do everything possible to include special cards and dice to make the games harder to play without actually buying the product.

>This guy is fucking lying, ignore him.
And here we see Mr. RollToBreath

You're a dumbass if you think the players should be failing basic fucking rolls, like flying the ship on a completely normal day of the week.

Even dodging an attack you have prepared for is a +30 test

2nd edition PC are more powerful from the start, and the NPC/enemies are the same.
Follow the guidelines of the core to balance the encounters and correct based on the party approach.

Eventually limit the requisition tests to 1-2 per PC per session, so they have to be selective about the gear.

Are the numerous supplements to DH1e easily transferable to DH2e?

Is that even a good idea? I feel like I'd be doing my PC's a disservice if I don't offer those supplements as an option. But what they don't know won't hurt them I suppose.

i've read the manual but never played. from what i can tell it is very similar to DH1, but more granular combat and few skills/talents that are non-combat related. it also de-emphasizes non-combat aspects.

the minis are pretty cool looking though and, if i recall correctly, are of a larger scale than normal 40k minis

Except the mechanics clearly state that it's a +0.

If it's something meant to be challenging (it should be, you're in the Inquisition - you don't get sent on fucking errands), you're going to be seeing, at best, +10s and +20s, and most of the time, it'll be +0s and -10s.

It's meant to be difficult. This isn't 'fly the ship on a normal day of the week', it's 'try not to die while the gribblies attempt to chew your face off.'

you're thinking of DH1.

dice shouldn't be rolled unless there is a tension reason (combat, timing, it matters if you fail). if they are just driving about or whatever, the dice shouldn't come out.

Except the mechanics are clearly designed to reflect that.

A +0 test is supposed to be a pain in the ass, but not impossible.

In theory that should be true, but the fact there's rules for reheating an MRE is kinda stupid. Your average human has a 50% chance of failing that test too.

They are, in terms of equipment and the lore.

Alternate Career Ranks and Background Packages should be ignored, but feel free to pillage the lore if the players throw together a Homeworld-Background-Role combination that fits.

On the lore note, are you using Calixis Sector lore, or Askellon Sector lore? The first is DH1e, the latter is DH2e. Generally speaking, DH1e Calixis Sector lore was better in my opinion. Askellon is alright, but generally not as fleshed out or detailed and it leaves a lot of questions about how the writing team changed because the material just doesn't feel quite as good.

If you have a 30-40% chance to do something challenging like the vast majority of average humans, you're good.

That was also another complaint many people had while I was researching DH2e.

It's still a toss up on which lore I'm using. I'm still stuck on the "which edition should I use" issue. But I'm leaning towards 2nd after what everyone else has told me.

A quick look at the authors shows Alan Bligh and John French as the driving force behind most of the best received DH1e books (Disciple's of the Dark Gods, Radical's Handbook, Inquisitor's Handbook). That's difficult talent to replace.

Let's not forget about the horrifying amount of skills in DH1e. They've really learned a thing or two with the years.

DH1e lore with DH2e mechanics is best game.

Fight me if you disagree.

If I was going to do a game about hive gangers, would I want to adapt Dark Heresy 2 or Only War?

DH2e, easy.

You might implement a Gang Creation mechanic, ala the regiment creation system from Only War, as an attached component of the adaptation, but for chargen, you want to focus on the individual members of the gang a bit more.

I blew up an Ork trukk in a single shot at my weapon's maximum range. Saved a Vulture pilot and let half of our reinforcements get through (the other half still died to AA). I've officially been switched to squad sniper.

>2nd edition being too close to Only War.

That a problem? Only War is fucking great.

That's not my opinion it's just one of the complaints that I encountered while I was researching DH2e

>give the players a +30 to +60 bonus on most rolls
What the actual fuck. You know that bonuses cap at +60 right? That's lategame tier shit, they need to work towards that not start out with it.

+0 is challenging, the players themselves should be facing a lot of that and a lot of -10s, then using their own gear and shit to raise it to a +10 or +20.

>Even dodging an attack you have prepared for is a +30 test
No, no it's no at all. Everything in combat should be challenging at best. Look at all the combat actions, or even psyker powers are all +0s or -10s.

How is the lore any different?

This.

I'm the same guy who did this post - lightbulb just went off.

If you were to adapt Only War into a totally new homebrew game (still 40k, still an RPG, still using the same base mechanics), how would you adapt it? What would be an interesting take on the system to you guys? What would the focus of the game be?

Different developed worlds, different source material, different pre-generated modules, villain factions with interesting motives and Modus Operandis, and plenty of premade NPCs that are actually interesting for DH1e.

DH2e leaves way more open to interpretation, but DH1e hits that sweet spot of 'Just enough for the GM to start with' and 'Just enough interesting points that are already fleshed out, which the GM can grab-and-go with.'

Alright, I'm back. Had to go do something.

Yeah, they found that out after the fact and think it's pretty cool. Good on them!

He actually wants to be the Commissar that's beloved by all, actually. Good point on pointing out the Inspire action though!

>that's lategame tier shit, they need to work towards that
Most of the bonuses and penalties are circumstantial. If something is easier than doing it under the kind of duress that you can't take a moment for. Some things are easier, but some things are harder. Circumstances can change an easier thing to a harder thing. Kit bonuses and penalties probably shouldn't effect it so much, relatively speaking.

Seems like you're taking a lot of GM leeway with bonuses instead of going RAW.

2e was supposed to be a blank slate that gm's could make up as they went along aside from a few bits. 1e had a lot of established facts, like what the Tyrant Star really was

To be honest man I tend to go with 's pic based on how I do it. Most stuff that would go from +40 and up I tend not to ask them to roll in the first place, but most things they do outside of combat--unless they are stressed out for whatever reason--tends to average out at +10 to +20-ish if they're experienced with it at all.

The moment something pretty stressful like combat comes around, their blood starts pumping in their ears and they can't breathe and everything is just so fucking scary and difficult. Their own ability must compensate for that, because unless they make clever use of the terrain and situation or unless they are even more messed up for some reason, they tend to do everything at +0.

So what kinda "stuff" are you talking about here that nets them Ordinary or Routine levels of bonus?

I think RAW does emphasize the GM adding lots of bonuses or penalties to most situations. The game emphasizes the importance of circumstances.

Actually, they never verified or confirmed what, EXACTLY, the Tyrant Star was. They just published adventures about someone trying to use it.

Even in Black Crusade, the forces of Chaos in and around the Calixis Sector are confirmed to know absolutely nothing about it beyond what it does when it manifests. And they're probably one of the only factions in the region that would have the closest thing to an idea.

>penalties
Yes, bonuses AND penalties. The penalties part seems to be what this guy is missing. Part of what I like about all 40K RPGs too is that, in a humans striving, pushing back against the horrors of space kinda way, the players should be trying to squeeze every last drop out of their equipment, their situation, even each other as they struggle to push to around +20, +30... This guy sounds like he's just handing out +20s and +30s like candy, then letting their gear and stuff stack up on top of that.

If someone is tracking in a forest and the person was good enough not to break branches but still left occasional footprints, but the person tracking isn't actually under duress or being chased and can breathe and take their time, I'd give the player a +10 without telling them unless they decided to actually use the mechanic for taking their time. Because when most people walk around they can follow step imprints in the dirt and moss, it's certainly fair to refer to that as "Ordinary," enough to follow.

If someone were trying to land an aircraft and they had experience with flying, then unless there was bad weather or something, they'd get a +20. Because something going wrong could happen and it would be catastrophic, that could be described as "Routine."

but for an experienced pilot that could be described as "Routine."*

I should emphasize that if the players are under duress--time limits, they seem to be showing signs of stress at their situation, anything like that--I tend to bring it down to a max of +10, averaging around +0 or negatives if other things start stacking on.

Experience with flying is generally presented via the skill to operate an aircraft.

So, get that skill up to +20, and absolutely, I'd agree 100%.

Experience with flying is generally presented via the skill to operate an aircraft, yes. Things like clear weather, a working airframe, a general feeling of comfort that comes with your experience, those are things that make it Routine.

I view the skills as what they are, to quote the game, "Challenging." If you are under duress and relying less on your comfort to compensate and just on your pure skill, that's what the skill's number represents.

I agree. I think there's a tendency to ignore penalties because the normal success rate for most rolls can be lower than in other games like D&D for example.

as to when they are*. Jesus Christ.

DH Forgotten Gods actually has a tracking scenario in that, it starts I believe at like a +10, but requires multiple rolls (each roll taking them some 50m I think) and every roll after the last is a further -10 as the tracks are swept away etc. over time. So yes it would be around a +10, but it'd be more involved than just rolling that once and bam, able to follow them tracks forever.

The flying thing is correct, sure. Just the way you're talking about it just makes me feel like you're not giving your players a proper challenge, like with the tracking thing. Draw tests out, make some tests feel like a real hard nut to crack, or make others feel like it'll take a real slog to pull off, and the satisfaction for doing so will be all the more real. Don't worry if they're rolling at under 30, under 40... They have Fate, and they aren't meant to succeed everything.

What is the Ecclesarchy's view on Untouchables? Being anathema to the Warp sounds pretty good, but they're also allegedly souless.

>working airframe

If the airframe does not work, it should not be flying at all.

>Clear weather
Flat modifier. Chaotic or dangerous weather imposes penalties.

>General feeling of comfort that comes with your experience.
Skill ranks.

If the airframe is REALLY good, apply maybe an additional +10.

>Untouchables

Pretty much unheard of among the vast majority of the Imperium. It's a safe bet most Ecclesiarchy officials have never heard the term in passing.

The ones who have may be divided in their own personal opinions.

I'm coming up with ideas off the top of my head from some aggressive prompting. I know it sounds like an excuse, but I feel more comfortable when I am coming up with bonuses and penalties based on my players' situations. I feel more comfortable in that storytelling position, and I'm not coming up with both parts of the equation. Just reacting to it, so to speak.

The examples I came up with were supposed to be in a position with a lack of too much challenge, because the guy asked when I handed those bonuses out. I hand them out when there isn't that much challenge, but it should still probably be rolled for because there's a chance for failure and consequence. Obviously, if something is more stressful, my given penalties would reflect that.

Contrary to what others are saying, I don't hand them out without thinking. The situation has to match it.

Surely no one but high-ranking members knows of their existence, right? They probably want to keep it that way, so no official position at all.

Depends on who runs the game. The All Guardsmen Party, for example, seems to have them in every major thing that involves psykers. Important people keep them around like wrist-watches in Shoggy's game.

Untouchables are freakishly rare.
But any members of the Ecclesiarchy who know of them (and few would be permitted to) would probably say that they're cursed by the Emperor.

No Soul, no afterlife.
And the God-Emperor doesn't make mistakes.
So there must be some reason they've been left incomplete.

Is it tech heresy to give a phyrr cat power armor?

Only War is the best one.

Agreed. It's the best of them.

I'm not a fan of Black Crusade, I think Astartes are too boring to play Deathwatch, and while Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are fun, no in my group has ever wanted to play them. I'm also not sure if the 2e is more or less compatible with the other games in the line than 1e.

Yes.

Technically.

Near as I can tell, tech-heresy is in the eye of the beholder, so the more lenient types generally give it the thumbs-up and approve it as long as it's not based on xenotech, Warptech, or outright innovative. Base everything on existing technologies and you ought to be good.

But it's not a new technology... right?

1e utilises some archaic rules and locks you into certain character progressions, I dunno it just seems like a no-brainer to me.

Yeah. But you're making it for a xenoform.

Technically an unintelligent xenoform, but you're basically putting an alien pet into a suit of custom power-armor meant solely for it.

This is kind of an Omnissian Ethical Grey Area, so you might want to play it by ear, and then keep it out of the Mechanicus' sight for good measure.

I get what you're saying, but it sounds like making a prosthetic/cyber-leg for a dog would be heresy then, whereas in fact we know there are cyber- mastiffs or whatever they're called.

Well, we just tore a guy in half by using him as a counterweight for a grapnel.

A Valkyrie crash landed and caught fire, the hatch got jammed. Somehow, no other player picked up the hint that we should use *ourselves* as the counterweight, and instead attached the grapnel to the rebar sticking out of the still-living copilot and used him as the counterweight instead.

We got the door open, and also got the co-pilot open.

That's out of necessity and is typically considered okay because it's mandated by the Mechanicum or their presence on any given planetary government.

As said, tech-heresy is typically in the eye of the beholder. Some people are going to be more okay with it than others.

Dogs aren't filthy xenos.

Yeah, but that's because dogs are Man's best friend and come from Terra.

Like I said, ethical grey area. I'm sure it'll be fine as long as you don't parade it around. Especially if you're sticking around on the frontier where Imperial authorities don't need to put up with you for extended periods of time. If you're a Rogue Trader (and I'm guessing you are, if you got a Phyrr Cat and have the means to custom-craft a suit of power armor for it), you have WAY more leeway than anyone else would.

Holy shit.

Replace "dog" by "grox" if you want to get me better.

I'm not the guy who asked the original question though. I agree with you, it probably depends which Tech-Priest you ask.

>What is the most "symbolic" encounter you have ever fought

The "real" final encounter of our Dark Heresy game was a Balor Hive Tyrant. It had wings, psychic powers, fate points, and could pretty much one-shot us if it hit. It spewed burning flames everywhere, and its claws melted through any defense. We were Rank 6 or 7. So many of us burned fate to live through it, but we killed it with true grit and the Emperor's blessing. We then found that the archeotech cache it was sitting over was actually a fully equipped but never activated Knight fortress, which became ours by right of conquest.

It wasn't until much later that I realized - I could not think of a truer test for an aspirant knight, than to face down and defeat a fire-breathing dragon. Man, Shas's Excelsus was such a fun game when I think about it.

Dude, this is supposed to be grimdark, not "absolutely fucking insane"

Alternatively, they could consider them martyrs for humanity's cause.

>whynotboth.jpg

Seriously, 40k is prime grounds for comedic ultraviolence.

It's like Gallagher. If you live it from the POV of the watermelon, it's cruel, barbaric, and frightening. But if you live it from the POV of the splatter goggles, it's an awesome show.

I tried to warn them! They just didn't listen. They never listen to reason.

My most meaningful encounter was probably the Logician agent with built-in powersword armblades. Up until that point, every ganger was packing some sort of stubber or lasgun, so my chainsword knight was starting to believe he was invulnerable.
Two energy blades sticking out his back fixed that right up. It also gave him a newfound appreciation for our team medic.

GM here, I'm the one who threw the Logician agent at this guy.

This is what happens when you try to pick a fight with the hyper-augmented heretek agent, Ioudas.

I regret nothing, and I plan to make the next adventure more brutal. This is not even my final form.

...

You should throw in a Lacrymole, you devious bastard.

I have genuinely considered this, but I can't talk about any of my ideas openly. I know my players watch this thread and will be able to suss out my ideas. I SEE YOU, YOU FUCKS.

I could do an hour-long Storytime about my group and the shit they've gotten up to. It's simultaneously hilarious, and enough to make me pull my hair out. Sometimes these fucks drive me up the wall. Some of their characters are just mechanically batshit (the chainsword knight for instance, fucking impossible to seriously hurt unless he gets hit with some major overkill; party psyker is absurdly high-powered, the Mechanicus Warrior has Wikipedia in his head and some of the best shooting skills in the party).

Best group ever, wouldn't trade any of them for the world, and their characters are genuinely awesome to see interact. Been playing with this bunch for years and I've yet to be seriously, genuinely frustrated about anything they try and do during the game, with maybe one or two rare exceptions.