Tax brainstorming thread

Thoughts on what the IRS have or do not have access to.

The IRS probably DOES HAVE access to:
1.) Coinbase/GDAX - largest/only reliable portal between USD and crypto. The IRS 100% has access or will be able to get access to coinbase/gdax.

2.) Bittrex - large US based exchange with a strong emphasis on regulatory compliance. Will probably give info to IRS if they ask.

The IRS PROBABLY does not have access to:

1.) Binance - Chinese exchange with low KYC demands.

2.) liqui - too small

The IRS almost certainly DOES NOT have access to:

1.) ICO participation - although if you then sell on bittrex ur fucked.

2.) etherdelta - decentralized exchange

3.) shapeshift - too much effort to track down ips

—/
With that being said, would we be ok with only paying taxes on what the IRS is obviously looking at? Obviously you have to pay on anything that goes thru coinbase, and probably bittrex.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_constitutional_arguments
cbc.ca/news/world/trump-lobby-ban-isis-plan-1.3957078
youtube.com/watch?v=R1BVYpNkk-A
youtube.com/watch?v=bP3Sfnp_ehw
coindesk.com/irs-using-bitcoin-tracking-software-since-2015/
efile.com/tax/do-i-need-to-file-a-tax-return/
youtube.com/watch?v=9pX7IQ6UOVM&t=474s
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

If i get an enail from coinbase saying irs wants my records, i will pay those taxes. Otherwise yolo

lmao, this

Reminder that every trade is a realization event. Pay the toll US anons

Yes, you will pay taxes on any exchange that deals with real money. I do not know how they can tax you on places like Bittrex since they only deal with fake money and you would only get taxes on accounts you are verified on anyways.

You would also only pay on what you didnt launder with Monero.

So yes, you could easily avoid taxes if it means that much to you. But for me, I would rather just stick with Cuckbase and pay my fair share until North Korea nukes DC.

it's funny how you can always tell the poorfags from the people who actually make money based on their view on taxes. those poorfags gotta protect that $100 in ARK.

Trade on EtherDelta IRS can’t track shit

What about poloniex? It’s a massive exchange and it’s probably gonna be my go-to when I cash out some day.

Large - US based. IRS will be able to get records.

Say it with me.

WE

Eventually you cash out though ... won't the IRS just be able to get your bank records and see that a bunch of money appeared from one of these companies and put 2 + 2 together?

I always keep 40% of what I cash out in reserve for when the tax man comes calling, If he doesn’t call I’m getting 6 mink gucci belts.

What if you hold until after WWIII and the dollar doesnt exist anymore?

There's a very, very big difference between "Tax brainstorming" and "How to break the law without the IRS knowing".

Pay your fucking taxes.

yes, any large deposits even in the 3-10k range will get reported by the banks, and the exchanges will probably sell everyone out so they can continue operating.

and the retards in the USA who say that you only pay taxes when you cash out are going to have a rude awakening when they go to fill out form 8949 and realize they have lie about how many coins they bought vs. how many they ended up selling. so they will just leave out the details then get audited because the IRS will put the dates together and see clear omissions.

t. a bank fag

Of course when you cash out you pay taxes. I fully intend to. I just dont want to pay taxes for crypto to crypto trades before i cash out.

Yeah, crypto isn't fungible. So what you are doing is illegal.

legitimate question, are you taxed capital gains when selling to usd, or when you actually withdraw fiat

So if I'm trying to make gains on alts, and I buy btc/ETH on coinbase/gdax, if I transfer ETH>binance then trade for alts>hold and make gains> trade alts back for larger amount of ETH>Transfer back to coinbase to cash out, will the IRS question where all that extra eth came from?

Tax on crypto to crypto trades are insane and unfair. The coin you bought could drop to nothing and you would have no money to even pay the taxes. You're punished for just making a trade and not even getting any money for it at all.

>Cash out on polo.
>Polo doesn't have fiat.

No comprende

Selling to USD.

And technically crypto to crypto trades as well. Total bullshit because BTC fluctuates so much per day but technically you profit or loss selling BTC to get alts.

you realize tax evasion is a felony in the US punishable by more than 5 years in jail you idiot? they arn't going to just send you a email u stupid fuck. you are going to jail.

How would someone keep track of every alt transaction and its value and record it if they're day trading dozens of alts per day?

>Tax on crypto to crypto trades are insane and unfair.
>Tax is insane and unfair.

FTFY

Or he could fight it in court. Income tax is illegal according to the constitution. They get away with it because no one is brave enough to fight the IRS.

Man fuck this shit. I’m 17 and need to fill out all my fucking crypto to crypto trades? Can we sign a petition or some shit to get rid of crypto to crypto taxes? How do you even get taxed if you haven’t cashed out? This shit makes no fucking sense.

This. Unless you want to be there next Wesley Snipes, just pay your taxes.

the irs doesn't care that you can't keep track. they only care that you owe them money.

see my other comment 1) each coin is considered property
2) when you buy property you need to record the acquired date and cost in USD (ex: bought 10 BTC @ $1k each = 10k total)
3) when you sell property you need to record the sale date and the net proceeds in USD (ex: sold 10 BTC @ $10k each = 100k total)
4) you get taxed on the gain or loss between the net proceeds and the cost basis (100k - 10k = 90k taxable)

so the moment you get taxes is the moment a sale occurs. there's no physical event it correlates with, it is effective when the property is sold.

so if you bought the 10BTC @ $1k, then sold it on the ETH/BTC market after it appreciated up to $10k per coin, you now own $100k in ETH in USD value and you are now on the hook for the tax on $90k USD gains. the IRS does not care if you are in fiat or not, it does not matter to them. what matters is you sold property at a 90k gain, so you need to sell some of that ETH to fiat again if you want to be able to pay your tax bill, because they IRS doesn't accept payment in cryptos. do it before the price moves though so you don't get taxed again on the same set of coins.

I've seen a lot of places that crypto to crypto are considered like for like so they are untaxable events...if true bullshit indeed

Do you understand the reporting requirements on a 1031 Like-Kind exchange?

Do you make multiple alt transactions per day? Do you keep track of all that shit? I don't, but I'm curious to get someone's first hand perspective on how they handle the paperwork for thousands of crypto transactions come spring time.

crypto to crypto trade is considered a tax event. if you go to bitcoin.tax they have an option for you to import all your trades from bittrex.

Sadly true, watch a video of this tax accountant who started dealing with crypto

Bitcoin.tax isn't the ultimate authority on this. That doesn't stop them from trying to profit from cucks scared of the IRS.

like kind exchanges only apply to real estate and you'd have to report every transaction regardless, because the whole point of a like kind exchange is to carry over thee acquired date and cost basis of the original sale to the subsequent sales, deferring the tax.

That's why it's not actually a thing.

If you're actually going to go through and pay USD on all 1,000 Bitbean trades you made, you are a retard. Just pay capital gains tax when you cash out and you'll be fine.

You literally can't report it the way you want to. There's no form that allows you write down your final cash in and cash out. If you write down that you bought 5 BTC then later sold 15 BTC you will be instantly marked for audit for the inconsistency. You can either not report at all or report every step of the way. Doing it half-assed is the worst option of the 3.

Lol at goyim IRS tracking and confirming thousands of trades and converting to Satoshi and USD. Yes this is very productive.
Lol at fags saying they will throw you in jail. They gonna build new jails to hold the thousands of NEETs that didn’t pay tax?

Oh ok then.

Though, if I'm not mistaken I thought you only had to pay taxes on gains, not losses as in I've only traded at a loss through all of my cryptos and have made 0 profit, I wouldn't have to pay taxes?

Has anyone ever been charged for tax evasion because of bitcoin? If not, why worry about it?

if you trade in high volumes, automation is the only way to deal with it. learn how write code and use databases if you don't already.

What if I report every step of the way, but not until I cash out?

>sell 9 ether to pay the 90k
>Ohh shit, you just made profit on 9 ether.
>Sell 1 ether to pay taxes on 9 eather
>Ohh shit you just made profit on 1 ether
>Sell .1 ether to pay the tax on 1 ether
>Ohh shit

I don't think they would throw anyone in jail, but they would fine you out the ass if they felt you owed them something that you didn't cough up. And if you didn't pay that fine, then you go to jail.

>tfw I've made close to 100 trades since august and have no recording of most of them...we gonna all make it though right?

I think most people are tempted to do this, especially the reality that buying 1 LINK is a taxable event.

annoyingg because the accountant interpretation is that crypto to crypt is a taxable event, but the IRS has't updated anything since the 2014 memo.

Trying to dodge taxes on a crypto to crypto trade is illegal/*grey at best.

This means that you have to record the bitcoin price at the time you buy/sell the alt. But bitcoin fluctuates so much per day, and the price isn't even the same across many exchanges.

There's going to be conention between IRS and big players in the future, because there will be arguments over what was and wasn't defined,

>>sell 9 ether to pay the 90k
>>Ohh shit, you just made profit on 9 ether.
no, as long as you sell the 9 ETH immediately before the price moves the realized gain will be at or around $0. if you wait a year for ETH to go up 1000%, then yes you'll have to pay taxes on that gain.

Another bad option. All trade reports require dates, you'd be admitting skipping reporting and paying taxes on all the years you didn't report.

Already paid my back taxes, I could care less what the IRS has access to because I wont be going to prison like the rest of you fags

Sorry bud, but that's an urban myth. You're not going to win that battle in court - many have tried and failed. Plus, does anyone actually believe the US government gives a flying fuck about what the Constitution says anymore?

I even coughed up $4k for Q3 estimated taxes. they aren't going to punish this goy.

Ok what about when you buy BTC at 1k, trade for ETH at 10k, eth goes down the next day by 24.726%, you trade that for monero and monero dips 5% but next day it goes up 13%. Then you send monero from poloniex to Bitfinex so you can buy iota at 4.56 and it drops to .88 where you get bitch hands and sell. Now you’re even. You haven’t profited anything in the end.

Do you still pay taxes for all the profits you made along the way, even tho they don’t exist anymore?

There should be trade records on exchanges.

But yeah... not recording your trades is really bad because if audited they'll just assume 0 cost basis on everything. It's like losing the ticket in a parking garage, when you try to leave since there's no proof you only stayed for a couple hours, they'll charge you for the whole day.

>crypto
>taxes

lmao

>Do you still pay taxes for all the profits you made along the way, even tho they don’t exist anymore?
no, assuming you did all this in the same tax year, your capital losses will offset the gains. don't do all this the last week of december though.

There is actually an ongoing court battle over it right now. I don't recall who it was though.

this

crypto = end of everything jewish

To avoid crypto to crypto tax, a friend of mine is planning to move his crypto all into Monero/other private/fungible coin, then back out again.

good luck IRS
this is an IRS thread
IRS also already scans the blockchain

its not an urban myth
>“And to preserve their independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes; have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account; but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers.”
Jefferson

pic related is IRS 2018

Really stupid if he has his ID associated with exchanges. The issue is not necessarily them tracking you on the block chain at this point, although they are hiring Chainalysis to do just that. It's that they can subpoena Coinbase, bittrex, and poloniex for your trade records. Being in monero will do nothing.

Not once there does it say that income tax is not allowed.

yes

t. cpa

>you'd be admitting skipping reporting and paying taxes on all the years you didn't report.

Can I play dumb and just take a heavy fine? Assuming I'm cashing out millions when I do.

The IRS probably doesn't even know Bittrex exists. Don't give them that much credit.

Word of the wise: if there is money for the taxman to take, they will take it by any means necessary and then fine you for their efforts

you're not the first to think of this which is why the the founders were against all forms of taxes
>withdraw btc bought with xmr
>hey user how did you get that btc?
>hey user we saw you deposited xyz here and withdrew xyz + 20,000usd, where did you get that 20,000?
>hey user we actually have all your exchanges records because we created laws that passed because the general population is too fucking stupid to realize anything thats happening
>hey user why dont you come with us and PROVE where you got these funds and prove they arent criminal
>hey user in the meantime we confiscate these funds and put them into the federal treasury to pay for our sex assault defense teams
you're a fucking retard
surely you are aware that income taxes were NEVER in the constitution written by the founders?
>The Sixteenth Amendment (Amendment XVI) to the United States Constitution allows the Congress to levy an income tax without apportioning it among the states or basing it on the United States Census. This amendment exempted income taxes from the constitutional requirements regarding direct taxes, after income taxes on rents, dividends, and interest were ruled to be direct taxes in the court case of Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co. (1895). The amendment was adopted on February 3, 1913.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_constitutional_arguments

what he quoted isnt even in the constitution

pay your taxes, idiots

you remind me of the idiots that get in fights with state troopers and stuff claiming they are "Sovereign Citizens"

Technically you're right.
Does the government care?

No.

Does that really sound like the smart thing to do?

We need to get money the fuck out of politics. No more lobbying, no more any of that shit. It should be a rule that anyone holding public office is not allowed to earn more than $200,000 per year before or after they are elected.

That sounded retarded at first, but after thinking about it for a bit, that could actually be a pretty good solution

If you earn under $10,400 in a year, you don't need to even file taxes. Considering that short term capital gain is earned income, and if you make under $10,000 a year your short term capital gain rate is only 10%, most NEETs like me should be safe.

Wagies will get BTFO though.

Do you need to file taxes if your annual pay would be over 10,400 but you only work part time so you earn under 10,400?

cbc.ca/news/world/trump-lobby-ban-isis-plan-1.3957078

Trump already thought of that. But it is only a band-aid solution.

>Article I, Section 8, Clause 1:

>The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

Keep in mind that was written when the 10th amendment actually meant something
the government can ONLY tax to pay off debt from WARS, and the constitution STRICTLY PROHIBITED THE GOVERNMENT FROM HAVING A STANDING ARMY
Anything else your tax money pays for is theft.
you remind me of a bootlicker who has concept of personal responsibility and thinks you and the government know how to better manage my finances rather than myself
Read "Whatever Happened to Justice?" By Richard Maybury of EWR
>We need to get money the fuck out of politics
WRONG.
The solution is to remove politics. There is nothing a government can do that can not be done better by the private sector.
youtube.com/watch?v=R1BVYpNkk-A
youtube.com/watch?v=bP3Sfnp_ehw
You can not prevent abuse of power. You can remove the power. But power itself is abuse, and wherever you have POWER there is abuse.
Try and think of one example where POWER should be used over someone. Think of ONE.

The IRS doesnt know shit. Play stupid because they have no idea what the rules are either. Don’t tell them more than they need to know.

coindesk.com/irs-using-bitcoin-tracking-software-since-2015/

>ancap

Come on dude, this is a meme. The US government just needs to be smaller and fairer, reduce taxes, and be less heavily involved in foreign affairs. The system was designed for this to be fixed by The People, and we can still do it.

>Trump
>knowing how to form a coherent sentence

He's a puppet.

As long as you only received under $10,400 into your bank account, you should be good.

>The system was designed for this to be fixed by The People,
do you actually think America was supposed to be, or was, a democracy?
you'd think if the founders loved "the people" making decisions they'd have allowed more than 3% of them to vote in the first place...
>The US government just needs to be smaller and fairer, reduce taxes, and be less heavily involved in foreign affairs
according to the founders writings the government has only ONE purpose
>common defense
anything else is a violation of the 10th amendment
>reduce taxes
taxes are unconstitutional and income taxes didnt exist until 1913
the governments only source of funding was tariffs, which meant the government could not get bloated because it barely had any funds.

also, if the founders loved democracy so much, they might have mentioned it or something similar in ANY of the founding documents or their writings.
there is a reason the senate was not elected by the people

> Miscellaneous CAPITALIZATION for the sake of EMPHASIS

Also

> Try and think of one example where POWER should be used over someone. Think of ONE.

There are millions of reasons for why a government would support socially-advantageous positions, including but not limited to stability, economic growth, technological advancement, environmental protection, etc etc. All of which _really_ boil down to self-interest, so the crux of your argument is whether or not the good of all can be good for the individual as well, which it clearly can be (re: every political uprising of the past 300 years).

The US is not a democracy, it's a republic. I'm glad you passed 6th grade social studies.

The government had to get more powerful because they realized they were dealing with a more global world, megacorps, the super-rich, and the country was expanding in size rapidly.

> stability
yeah, stability, thats one thing the government provides (extreme sarcasm.)
>economic growth,
how can a government provide economic growth? seriously.
>technological advancement
private sector can do it better
>environmental protection
private sector DOES do it better
>The government had to get more powerful because they realized they were dealing with a more global world,
this is one of the dumbest things in this thread.
what does that even mean?
>megacorps, the super-rich
megacorps are a result of the government dipshit
you didn't have megacorps until the government got big
as for the mega rich, the mega rich just went from being at the top of the government (kings) to being friends with the top of the government
>the country was expanding in size rapidly.
the Louisiana purchase was unconstitutional, and i dont see how having more land to cover requires more power over the population. that literally makes no sense

I think you're misinformed on that.

efile.com/tax/do-i-need-to-file-a-tax-return/

The 10,400 figure is for requiring to fill a tax RETURN (not for filing taxes in general) if your W2 is more than that. They still had to file taxes, but the W2 is usually done by their employer. If the income was generated by being a self-employed NEET the minimum is $400.

>If the income was generated by being a self-employed NEET the minimum is $400.

That is some bullshit if true. Source?

Aww thats gay

If you make less than 15k a year it shouldn't be taxed

I fucking linked it already. And it was always a requirement for filing a TAX RETURN (getting your money back), not for paying taxes. You still had to do that no matter what.

...

He confused the minimum amount of income that requires you to file a tax return for the minimum amount of income to pay taxes. Your employer already takes money out of your pay check and gives it to the government. You WANT to file a tax return because it gives you some of that money back. And there is no minimum amount of money for reporting capital gains.

This. If you have to pay taxes that means you made some money for very little effort without losing more than you made. Just pay your fucking taxes and don't be a shit tier 3rd world human.

Bitcoin crimes are punished fairly severely. Multiple people have been sentenced to multiple years in federal prison for selling bitcoin on localbitcoins.

Out of touch judges are going to see its bitcoin related, lump you in with drug dealers and pedophiles and give you a harsh sentence.

I agree but this is because they were tricked by the feds or misinformed by their attorneys into pleading guilty of running a money services business, even if they weren't.

But yeah your point still stands. The government will NOT treat you kindly if you stand in any kind of gray area.

youtube.com/watch?v=9pX7IQ6UOVM&t=474s

EU fag here. What do you think, would US exchanges hand over my data to foreign goverments?

>Go to jail
>Still have millions in crypto
>Buy everything in there