Using your Strength you can exert your body and swing a sword

>using Constitution, you quiet your screaming muscles as you unflinchingly endure the strain of battle.

Easy way out? Blood Magic.

Otherwise, I'd say it's every JoJo fight ever. The shit JoJo characters have endured in combat is insane, though it's also described as their force of will keeping them standing, so it may not be Constitution based.

You can do non bluff Charisma.
It involves spotting what the enemies moral is made of, and ripping it out, by performing said anti moral.

>How do I describe using Constitution to attack?

You don't. Constitution doesn't attack. It simply doesn't. I have seen this thread in the past and it is autistic as fuck. If every stat has a method of attacking physically, they might as well all be the same goddamn fucking thing.

Don't get me wrong, I understand Strength and maybe Dexterity being used to attack. Dexteirty should cost some feats or something to add to attack and damage.

But Constitution? Your "toughness" is not used to attack. Neither is your charisma, cunt. You can use charisma to bluff, but your Dex/Str is what helps you actually land a blow.

>using your Intelligence you use Sherlock powers to predict the optimal way to strike your foe

Holy shit are you even listening to yourself? Are you reading what you write? This is the most fucktarded anime shit I've ever read in my life. Intelligence. Doesn't. Attack.

Now, I can see a Knowledge (anatomy) check to let you do a special called shot no one else can do. Or somethign similar.

But if you let characters use whatever their highest stat is to attack, what the fuck is the actual fucking point of having stats at all? Just get rid of them. It's fucking pointless to have stats at all. It's just the same faggy-ass bullshit where the game dev tries to make every build equally effective and ends up with a game where all the stats are fluff because they all do the same thing.

D&D is starting to slip into this with 5e. You can use Dex to attack... fine... but you can use it for damage, for free? No cost whatsoever to making Dex a fucking god stat? Fuck off.

No, this is fucking bullshit. Your "weathering foes ineffectual attacks" is called your HIT POINTS, or toughness, or wounds, or health, or vitality points, or whatever the fuck your system of choice calls them.

> capeshit

About what I expected.

Feats, pham

>Intelligence. Doesn't. Attack.
Actually it does.

> Actually it does

No, see, that's not a rebuttal you dumb picklecock motherfucker. See, to do a rebuttal, you need to provide REASONS. Intelligence is not an attack stat. Becuase even if you know where to hit with """""Sherlock Powers"""" (god I am cringing reading that shit), you still need to be agile enough to land the blow.

I have a friend with a TESTED 140 IQ. He has lost every fight he's ever been in because he's clumsy as fuck and cannot hit for shit. He does not have "Sherlock Powers", faggot. Look at how coordinated Sherlock Holmes is in the fucking movie you are referring to. he's a fucking action hero, with probably 14 Dex at least. Yes, his intellect and knowledge of anatomy lets him know where to hit. So does my friend, but he can't fucking hit there.

Stop coming up with bullshit abstractions to dilute and drain the meaning from the different game stats. D&D 3.5 did enough of this bullshit, as did 4e and it's stupid alternate basic attack stat feat.

> Feats

In reference to what? You aren't even replying to specific part of my post so I can't tell what the fuck you are saying.

TESTED

The Japanese anime tactic of "I'm going to let you hit me so I can hit you better"

In armored fighting, specially with full plate, that's a very legitimate tactic. You take a blow where you know you are better defended so you don't lose your stance or so that you get to attack during the opening the blow causes.

Yes, TESTED

That's due to armor, dumbass, not Constitution.

Constitution may allow you to take a hit if you "provoke an opportunity attack" to land a better blow, and if you take a high constitution that feat might be a good strategy for you if you have hp to spare.

But Constitution does not attack. it does not cause you to land a blow. It does not help you swing a sword accurately. It does not help you aim a gun. It. Does. Not Attack.

Stop oversimplifying the stats to mean absolutely nothing. What you are describing is reachy as fuck and is already described by most games' mechanics.

Constitution is attacking over and over again

...

>I have seen this thread in the past and it is autistic as fuck.
>writes a novel length block of text on the subject and defends it doggedly
No john, you are the autism

You call people autistic for wanting to use other stats for attacking and yet here you are having a full on sperg-out on it.

"No, user. You are the autists." And then user was CWC.

In DnD there's these things called feats and they let you do wacky stuff like attacking with a different stat.

Woah
John was the zombiesmind

You know those internet IQ tests aren't worth shit, right? Not that I'd complain if they were good, though - one of those fuckers gave me an IQ of over 150. Now, I know I'm better than the rest of you dumbasses, but that's a little much even for me.

>Intelligence. Doesn't. Attack.
>Now, I can see a Knowledge (anatomy) check to let you do a special called shot
You should learn when to stop talking considering you just invalidated your own point.

>I have a friend with a TESTED 140 IQ. He has lost every fight he's ever been in because he's clumsy as fuck and cannot hit for shit. He does not have "Sherlock Powers", faggot.
No shit, that's only like 12 INT. He'd need at least 18.

Also it depends a lot on the test in question. In a psyche class I took about a half dozen IQ tests where my score ranged from ~80 to 150. The one I scored lowest on was written in fucking ebonics so I could barely decipher the questions.

>Being this assmad over imaginary numbers

INT doesn't attack, but it can/should give you a bonus to criticals or let you circumvent a certain defence. It's better represented as weapon skills e.g. Hand-to-Hand (Daggers).

CHA doesn't attack either, not physically. You can use it to talk down your opponents, though. Another use would be faking an injury or weakness to lure in your enemies. A third might be intimidation, using force of personality to force your foes to back down. This could be represented by a skill such as Hand-to-Hand (Guile).

Constitution's not really designed to attack at all. It could be used to wear out an enemy over time, forcing them to tire themselves out. Thing is, the hitpoint system works for that fairly well, forcing enemies to burn daily abilities in order to bring your HP to a managable condition.

If CON could just be used to deal damage, it becomes a god stat. More HP, more damage, better saves against a bunch of things. It's just too good like that.

>If CON could just be used to deal damage, it becomes a god stat. More HP, more damage, better saves against a bunch of things. It's just too good like that.

4e has a couple classes running on CON (Battlemind and Warlock) and neither are especially broken.

Then again, in 4e you always pump 2 stats anyway, so whatever stat you class is using is your "god stat".

Jesus Christ you are the biggest moron I've seen on this board in a good four years.

The difference is between Intelligence being used to AID an attack, and Intelligence being used FOR THE ACTUAL ATTACK ROLL.

You are both literal morons.

As per standard "average person" 3d6 chargen, 140 corresponds to pretty much an 18 intelligence if you match up the curvse and make up for the StanDev differences.

You are a complete autistic if you think 12 int (barely above average) is the same as 140 IQ which is like the top 2% if I recall correctly. It's TWO standard deviations above the mean and according to Chebshev's theorem it's 98.8% or something like that lower.

This is HIGH SCHOOL STATISTICS that you are unable to grasp here.

simantics.blogspot.com/2011/01/d-and-iq.html

>4e has a couple classes running on CON (Battlemind and Warlock) and neither are especially broken.

He's talking about in general, dumb-ass. Those classes still use Strength for basic attacks, unless they take the feat.

Wizard is INT based, that doesn't make INT a god stat in 4e.

> participating in an online discussion
> gets BTFO
> "lol why are you even taking this discussion seriously? just a prank bro!"

People like you are just sad.

> internet IQ test

When the fuck did I imply it was online? He took two of those WISC tests for like 1000 bucks.

Yes, like DEX. Not that shitty feat in 4e that let you attack with Int. It also didn't apply to maneuvers so it was almost useless as fuck (like 4th edition was in general).

>He's talking about in general, dumb-ass. Those classes still use Strength for basic attacks, unless they take the feat.

Actually, Warlocks have Eldritch blast/strike...

Unless I'm missing something, this guy isnt making his own homebrew, he's asking how to describe events that happen in DND. Charisma, intelligence, and wisdom absolutely are used to attack for sorcerers, wizards, and druids, just not physically.

IIRC there are some spells involving pushing that use your constitution modifier rather than int, this is probably what he's talking about. In this case, OP, I picture it as the force is also being exerted on you and you have to withstand it in order to push the target away. This is constitution rather than strength for REASONS.

this

>It also didn't apply to maneuvers so it was almost useless as fuck

You fucking idiot. You took that feat on characters who already ran off of INT and needed an INT based melee attack (such as Swordmages).

>Yes, like DEX

There's a fuckload of ways to get basically any stat to weapon attack and/or damage in both 3rd and 3.PF.

>Intelligence. Doesn't. Attack.

4e has classes that use weapon attacks that use all of those stats as the attacks.

Personally, Con as attack stat is about ignoring the pain as you strike in an unexpected manner.

And you are unable to grasp that in a world where individuals in the top percentile and superhuman and beyond anything in our reality we can't use curve based on normal people in the real world. 12 INT is towards the peak of the the average, relatively unremarkable masses, not those who go on amazing adventures and preform wondrous feats that to us only exist in wild dreams and fiction. It is certainly comparable to a 140 IQ in the real world.

Constitution also governs fortitude. You ignore/tank the possibility of counterattack and don't hold back on your swing.

Eldritch blast is not a BASIC attack, which is what I was referring to. It's also a MAGICAL attack.

Personal stat purpose layout for my savage worlds brew thing:

Finesse: dodging and hitting
Body: HP and damage
Smarts: number of special techniques known
Spirit: saving throws, contest of will

Each stat has a defensive and offensive use, each stat is important.

funin.space/compendium/power/Eldritch-Blast.html

>This power counts as a ranged basic attack.

> WISC for 1000 bucks.

Your friend is a fucking idiot.

> He spent a lot of money which helps validate the argument

You are also a fucking idiot.

Except this is NOT an example of Constitution attacking. There is no attack depicted in this picture. This is an example of a guy hitting, then landing another hit, then looking nervous because now he is close to a very STRONG and probably SKILLED opponent. But if all this guy has is tough, he can only absorb blows, he CANNOT attack. Yes you can soak a hit to get yourself into a more advantageous position. But that is NOT what an attack roll represents. An attack roll represents YOUR attack. That is ENTIRELY based on your dexterity skill at hitting. You may have an advantage because the guy has his spear stuck in you thus he can't defend himself. But whether you have an 18 con or 13 con, doesn't make that spear any less stuck in you. You still would get the same bonus for the guy being disarmed, if any.

Constitution DOES NOT attack. It can HELP you attack but it itself is not an attacking stat. Anything else is just post-hoc rationalization of complete bullshit that would never show up in an actual fight, real or imagined.

It may COUNT as one but it is not the same as swinging a sword or shooting a bow, which are the DEFAULT basic attacks in 4e.

You are arguing semantics and missing the point.

You're moving the goalposts HARD. You made the accusation of it being an online IQ test, and got BTFO. Then you put words in my mouth as if I thought it being an online IQ test lent credence to my argument. I didn't, I was merely responding to your dumb-ass, incorrect accusation.

By all measures my friend is very smart, and he cannot win a fight. There are shittons of smart people who cannot fight. Their intelligence is not helping them land blows. Because Intelligence does not help to land blows. It is not an attacking stat.

Please ignore this and build another wild strawman to attack. I wouldn't want you to be disappointed.

Attack rolls don't represent a single swing, newbie. They're an abstraction for a series of movements including positioning for the strike. Go tell your DM he was wrong.

>be Warlord
>nobody in the party has a basic attack worth shit
THANKS MAGES

Constitution lets you swing a hammer all over the place; yeah, you also need to be strong, but you make up for your lack of precision and strength by just swinging a lot.

PS.: I fucking hate constitution as a separate stat, especially when it's function is the "don't die" stat.

It's also unfair imo that melee characters are always locked into needing CON on top of their attack and damage stat and whatever your class needs on top of that. Just change STR to BOD to be the melee/HP stat and be done with it.

Abuse yourself and frame it on the enemy.

>They're an abstraction for a series of movements including positioning for the strike.

And also include the actual strike itself. Which uses physical coordination. It's one thing to let Intelligence or Wisdom give a bonus from a special maneuver in certain cases, but Dexterity / Strength is ALWAYS going to factor into an attack roll.

Neither does Strength or Dexterity if you're not actually trained to fight. You can be strong as hell and still unable to land a hit because your opponents actually knows how to fight.

In the case that you are both intelligent AND actually know how to throw a punch, you can use both.

>Constitution lets you swing a hammer all over the place; yeah, you also need to be strong, but you make up for your lack of precision and strength by just swinging a lot.

So... again. Constitution might supply extra attacks. But it is not used to attack in itself. You still need Strength to hit.

> you also need to be strong

You said it yourself. Strength figures into the attack roll. Constitution gives you more # of attacks. Simple. As. That.

HP is an abstraction of physical well being, fatigue, morale, luck, and other factors. Shrugging off a seemingly lethal wound is unnerving and could cause enough morale loss in the enemy to be mechanically represented as damage.
It's a psychological attack.

Man I play Cyberpunk and it does exactly that. Body is both physical strength and how tough you are. Another thing I like is how Reflexes and Technical are two different stats instead of Dexterity pulling double duty. Why would a surgeon be as flexible as a gymnast?

>Neither does Strength or Dexterity if you're not actually trained to fight.

Yes, being trained gives a benefit, but if you put two untrained guys against each other and one has 18 Str/Dex and the other has 10 Str/Dex the 18 guy is probably going to win.

The game system represents this with skills. Now the gulf between skilled and unskilled in different systems might not be as realistic as you might wish. But nevertheless, a dextrous person's Dexterity still factors into their ability to hit.

Also intelligence != training in any universe. By that logic MMA fighters have 900 IQs. Your training represents the skill points you have poured into that skill. NOT your intelligence. Just being smart does not make you better at fighting. And again, the Intelligence is not what is landing the blow. The intelligence might tell you where to aim and how to make a special maneuver. But Dexterity / training is going to be what is helping you hit.

>Another thing I like is how Reflexes and Technical are two different stats instead of Dexterity pulling double duty. Why would a surgeon be as flexible as a gymnast?

Yeah, I also hate that. I'd have the tinker-y stuff key off of INT in D&D land (as your knowledge for these things is probably more important than how precise your hands are).

Oh what if Con is like a horror movie slasher where they doggedly go after the victims no matter what bullshit gets tossed at them?

>Shrugging off a seemingly lethal wound is unnerving and could cause enough morale loss in the enemy to be mechanically represented as damage.

That is retarded for a simple reason, and it's the same reason Vicious Mockery in 5e pissed me off. Cool ideas, but when it actually deals a killing blow it just feels retarded. Keep in mind that depends on the situation HP are both meat points and energy points, but when a guy is at 1 hp, the next hit is going to be a mortal blow. I suppose he could collapse from fear or blood loss but the former barely makes sense given he'll die from it and the latter is a dissociated post-hoc rationalization.

But anyway, I don't have any issue with the other abilities helping you in combat. But being used to ATTACK, no, that doesn't happen. They can give advantages in some cases but they are not going to be the actual attribute used to attack.

Guess I hate to seem like a negative cunt because I just took my pills and realized I was raging a bit hard.

>So... again. Constitution might supply extra attacks. But it is not used to attack in itself.

That depends entirely on how abstracted the system is. OP seems to be going with "1 roll/attack action" I think, though it's hard to infer.

>You still need Strength to hit. You said it yourself.

I meant to lift the hammer.

You could also make the argument that your attacks aren't "hitting" but you are tiring out the enemy through the relentless flailing, which could be represented by HP damage.

>Constitution gives you more # of attacks. Simple. As. That.

I wouldn't say a system keying your number of attacks off of constitution to be simpler than one where you just have the ability to base your melee attack on CON.

Your intensive physical condition allows you to use your body as a weapon with less harm coming to you.

Disease host / carrier. Afflict everyone with something that's lethal for most but minor nuisance for you. Nurgle Cultist of sorts.

>but when it actually deals a killing blow it just feels retarded

Losing your HP doesn't mean you are knocked out in systems where shit gets abstract. It just means you are out of the fight. Could be just finally giving up and embracing the comforting darkness of dropping unconscious. Could be deciding that "fuck this, I better play dead". In fact, depending on the system it could be just running the fuck away.

I accused it of being an online test. That guy telling you what an idiot your friend is for spending money on the test is someone else.

I also think your friend is an idiot for spending a thousand dollars on an IQ-test, though. He might be one of those high Int, low Wis characters.

Or he might just have money and spending 1000 bucks isn't hard for him because he has a good job unlike you, wagecuck.

>That depends entirely on how abstracted the system is.

If the system has Dexterity as a stat and Strentgh as a stat but chooses to use Con as the attack stat without other justification, that system is fucking retarded regardless of abstraction level.

Occam's Razor BTFOs any attempt to use those other stats in place of Str/Dex regardless of abstraction level. It simply does not make any sense.

>Losing your HP doesn't mean you are knocked out in systems where shit gets abstract.

Except it does. In D&D if you go to 0 Hp you fall prone and are dying.

Let them hit your head until their hand breaks

Use your strongest potion that could kill dragons much less a man.

The Valor system has something like that. Strength can attack, Agility can attack, Intellect can attack, and Aura/Spirit can all attack. Guts, the second HP stat represents tenacity of both body and will, and while it's a little delayed (need at least two valor points before the trick can be used) you can use Guts as your attacking stat by simply being more iron-willed than your foes, their strength and resilience failing because you just Want to win more than they've been able to physically prepare, intellectually outmaneuver, deftly dodge or conjure wards.

Jesus fucking Christ, user

>Guess I hate to seem like a negative cunt because I just took my pills and realized I was raging a bit hard.
>I was raging a bit hard
Well you can say that again

You block things with your chest.
Sword? BLOCKED!
Fireball? BLOCKED!
Death Curse? BLOCKED!

>STR, slashing
>DEX, swift cut
>INT, Waiting for an opening
>WIS, striking vitals
>CON, letting him hurt you and you attack
>CHA, start mocking him then attack

>Except it does. In D&D if you go to 0 Hp you fall prone and are dying.

It's almost like

>Could be just finally giving up and embracing the comforting darkness of dropping unconscious.

Add "and bleeding out" to the end if you want.

...

Battleminds

Is this thread full of pasta? How have I never seen a screencap of such a massive fit of retard rage?

>Using your constitution you can match your opponent blow for blow and come out the last man standing.

>using your Charisma you style on your enemy with animu DMC attacks
Wouldn't a better example be a feint since you your Charisma to roll for a "bluff"?

I've always envisioned ki attacks as kind of like constitution-based spellcasting. I know that's not how they work in D&D at all, but that's how I think of them.

>using your Strength you dominate the clinches
>using your Dexterity you effectively use your speed and footwork to outmaneuver your foe and find angles for striking.
>using your Intelligence you predict striking patterns and work an uneven rhythm to catch your foe with awkward timing
>using your Wisdom you apply a thoughtful approach to head movement and footwork so it's not just 'spastic movement', you also pace yourself in the drawn out battle
>using your Charisma you talk shit to your opponents during a battle, sapping their confidence and making their brain work on two different things at once.

>using your Constitution you outwork your foe using endurance and cardio, enabling you to throw upwards of 200+ punches in 5 minutes and fight for hours without much adverse effect.
FUCKING FIXED YOU LEANBEAN FAGGOT

It's silly though, you can't do one without the other. It all runs together.

Fuck off, not in PF. If you're going to argue on the internet, at least be right. In PF, your choices are Strength and Dexterity if you're willing to work for it. There's an item Paizo published for 3.5e that some idiot GMs might allow, but that's it.

That item is Wis. Sensei (monk archetype) also gets Wis to attack.
You can get CHA to attack with Smite, off the top of my head, but there's bound to be an oracle revelation for it.
You can get INT to damage with Kirin Style and that elf feat, and that one PrC.
I'm stumped with CON, but I haven't been keeping up for like, the last 1 1/2 years so there's a chance there's a method.

>and the latter is a dissociated post-hoc rationalization
As long as you finish with a cringey "you're already dead" line, it's fine.

Way I see it:
Strength-Muscle
Dexterity-Reaction speed
Constitution-Fat and Toughness

High con, low str, low dex, you're a fat fuck. How it goes. So, to attack with Con, you literally put your mass into every swing, effectively becoming a moving train. You're moving and attacking with such force you just plow apart anything you hit. Momentum.

You don't, because D&D stats just aren't set up that way. D&D Dexterity should really be split into manual dexterity and agility, or Str and Con should be combined.

You can't attack with Con or Agl, but you can potentially use fighting styles revolving around dodging/tanking attacks in ways that generate openings through which you can more easily attack using a different stat.

Also, Cha should probably be more along the lines of taunting/intimidating/whatever your opponent into throwing off his game. Depending on the rest of the system and/or houserules I could see just calling for a single Cha-based roll (including BAB or equivalent) to see how much you throw him off balance and just assuming your martial skill is some constant and if you throw someone off balance X amount or more you're guaranteed to hit, but that's kind of stretching things.

>Dexteirty should cost some feats or something to add to attack and damage.
Why? Is it inherently better?

Yes, by being able to drop Str you can focus a little more on Dex, meaning your AC or equivalent is going to be slightly higher, and some skills will be, but you'd be losing out on the benefits of having above-average Strength (carrying capacity, Str skills, the ability to muscle things open or hold a door closed that someone on the other side is trying to open, etc).

Also, the point of letting people use their highest stat to attack is to help people be able to focus on one stat, and then the other inherent bonuses of stats (extra health, skill points, etc) serve as a way to differentiate characters. You have the Str guy who can lift huge shit, the Dex guy who dodges everything forever, and so on. Granted, it's more for a supers-esque game than a gritty dungeon crawl, but that's okay.

>Is it inherently better?
Yes.

You see, strength makes you good at killing things. That's it.

Dexterity makes you good at killing things and not getting hit.

A lot of systems combine strength and con for this reason, and my group house ruled d&d 5e where strength and con are merged.

This way, it becomes a choice - lots of health, or high AC. Either is good for dealing damage, but neither is strictly better. Str/Con is better at dealing with things that are good at hitting you, or even auto - hitting you, but sucks against multiple average enemies. Dexterity relies more on luck, as a lucky blow can kill you rather quickly, but you are unlikely to be hit be the average enemy.

The only balance issue this creates is Barbarians, but the rest of their tools are weak enough that it doesn't skew the balance all that much anyway.

This. Underrated post.

>A lot of systems combine strength and con for this reason, and my group house ruled d&d 5e where strength and con are merged.

In 5e an STR character has the same (or better) AC as a dex character because fullplate.

Adding the HP to that means the STR character is ahead.

(I usually agree with fusing STR and CON, however).

In order to have fagedelic """Sherlock powers"""", you would require an incredibly high wisdom, transferring into a high perception to notice your opening in combat. Then you would need a high dex/str to even utilize the opening... That's on top of the 18 or so Int and some form of homebrewed, bs knowledge(anatomy) skill.

Or knowledge devotion from 3.5

:^)

funin.space/compendium/power/Eldritch-Strike.html

funin.space/compendium/feat/Melee-Training.html

Both of these can be used to gain a Constitution-based melee basic attack. Melee Training (Constitution) is actually mandatory for a battlemind, frustratingly enough.

Never seen a strength character with better AC than a dex character (of any kind) in any of the games I've played.

Of course, my GM usually makes full plate rare/expensive, and even when you have it, it confers so many people alties outside of Dex rolls, (especially in any social interaction ever) that you never want to wear that thing unless you are either 1. Actively looking for trouble, or 2. Know for certain that you are walking into a fight (like in a dungeon crawl)

And even with full plate, the usual monk/dex barbarian seems to outmatch them anyway.

5e armors only give penalty to Stealth. That's it. Maybe, if you wanted to be realistic, you could add further penalty for swimming (not that it matters, water walk is a ritual). Any other penalty would stem from the character not being able to lift; which is, considering this is supposedly an STR character, unlikely. It also has

Full Plate maxes out at 18 AC. This is the same as 20 DEX (so 8th level) + mage armor/dragon scales, +1 studded leather, etc.

The earliest barb/monk can catch up is 8th level, and that assumes a pretty shitty build for barb. They surpass plate at 12... unless you have a +1 armor by then, which is something the barb/monk can't wear.

Restricting armor is a fucking stupid idea because they were obviously meant to be used to shore up the defenses of STR based characters, so DEX doesn't become a god-stat. Thus, by fusing CON/STR you reintroduce the problem, from the other end. (it would have been an okay rule in previous editions).

Also

>social PENALTY
>for wearing a badass fullplate

fucking pleb tier

IQ is not a measure of practical intelligence, anyway.