Have you ever betrayed the party? I tried a few times because I like to play Evil characters but I always end up dying...

Have you ever betrayed the party? I tried a few times because I like to play Evil characters but I always end up dying...

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If this is a serious thread, stop. Stop playing evil characters. Stop betraying the party. Stop playing rogue stealing from the party. Stop playing an evil mind controlling mage.
Stop.

Not the retarded op, but my evil characters are all evil for the party rather then evil to the party.

This also often tends to backfire, when the paladin doesn't share your notion that burning that torturing that bloke to death and raising him as a zombie was for the greater good and the benefit of the party.
Also, I suddenly remembered picrelated.

>hurr durr backstab circle

Good, if you betray the party you should end up dying.

Traitor.

That said, my character (party healer) is on his way to Lichdom. When our campaign is at its end, when we decide to retire this group of characters, I'm going to fight the rest of the party.

I generally play an evil character, which leads sometimes leads to minor altercations between me and the party's good cleric, and rarely some of the neutrals, concerning our methods but never a full on betrayal. The wicked things I do are usually done behind the party's back and always out of the eye of our paladin.

Don't do it. As a GM I've worked the occasional betrayal into the plot and NOTHING creates a bigger vendetta. In the biggest case an NPC managed to strike at them during their most vulnerable moment and very nearly TPK'd the party. It took every ounce of their willpower not to slit that NPC's throat on the spot after they had him hog tied, and they only managed that because he had information they needed. They were angry, they were frustrated, they blamed themselves for letting him in, and they absolutely despised that NPC from then on, long after his death. As a fellow player all that anger, frustration and hate will be focused on YOU.

I'm not saying it can't be done well by an experienced roleplayer, with a group that works together to weave a good story from it. But if you do it poorly, all the hate, hurt and pain caused by the betrayal (and there's a reason it's often seen as the biggest crime a human being can commit) will be redirected at you, the cause. It can and will reach outside the game, dissolving groups and destroying friendships. Don't treat it lightly.

I have not; however there is a wonderful story.

>Running Cthulhu-esque game
>Doing a heavily modified version of the Kingsburry Horror sample adventure from Trail of Cthulhu
>The beginning and end were the same, but the trail of clues, locations, and characters were completely changed
>Players have finally found the 6-headed monster
>It's in a chamber underneath the orphanage that was recently built by the same guy who made the Scylla-thing
>As a hint after they tried killing it with gunfire, a formerly-important NPC got too close and got fuckin' eaten
>The head became wholly occupied with the body
>Party figures out that the only way to stop Yog-Sothoth from fucking everything up is by feeding 5 more dudes
>Rich guy goes upstairs and finds 3 frightened orphans
>Drugs them with roofied lemonade and lures them into the lower chamber
>Engineering guy finds a single homeless man, knocks him the fuck out, and drags him down to the chamber
>Other PC couldn't find anyone
>1 more life needs to be sacrificed
>Reality is tearing apart with the manifestation of Yog-Sothoth
>Rich guy shoots the engineer
>World saved

>Lawful Evil Paladin
>rest of the party is good/neutral
>we all get along horribly, even the goods and neutrals as everyone is on opposite sides of the lawful/chaotic spectrum
>campaign is going for months
>slowly, truths of big bads actions come out
>apparently not derp evil but is acting through a strict ideological code for the greater good of all
>character begins to sympathize and am contacted by minions
>DM gets a feeling and messages me
>am brought to big bad for a secret meeting as group has become noteworthy in the realm
>compare opinions, ideologies, and answers to hypothetical situations
>we completely agree on all matters
>swear loyalty and say we will meet again, but with guests
>sessions go by and I begin to befriend CN fighter
>eventually think our bond is close enough to discuss the big bad and how things must get worse, temporarily, before they get better
>"Going to need a lot of money to secure my lips"
>disgusted but make contact for him with minion
>he's in
>the final session
>me and the fighter are given the layout of the lair
>we actively tell rogue to check areas we know are safe to give false sense of security and stay in the back when traps are triggered
>give signals to enemy soldiers to leave areas we enter to save their numbers, though some must be sacrificed to sell the act
>enter the grand chamber
>Big bad begins his speech
>everyone is getting hype
>Says they are outnumbered and party laughs at him saying there are five of us and one of him
>that's our queue
>merc fighter starts it "Actually, there's three of you"
>party goes full wut
>BB laughs and beckons us to him
>we walk to his side and the retreated enemy forces flood in from the side and main door
>party is surrounded and raging
>combat is over in just three turns
>me and fighter are triumphant as fuck post session chat, party has two rage quitters and the other guy was actually cool with it saying it was awesome that everyone was so in character

Yes, but it wasnt good idea.

You should consult playing such characters with DM or, even better, whole group.

I wouldn't play an evil character if there was a paladin in the party.
And i wouldn't play a paladin if there was an evil character in the party either.
It all depends on who is first and who is more attached to their concept than the other.

>I always end up dying...
Gee I wonder why!

Congratulations, you completely ruined a campaign for two other players.

The main reason betraying the party is so vilified is not (only) that is a shit move. But that the other players take it so personally.
That character betrayed the party, won, and got away with it? Deal with it
That character betrayed the party and got slaughtered? He has to deal with it

It is that simple.

Once. It was my GM who suggested it, and we planned it together. I was moving to another part of the country due to studies, and he wanted to take a break from the campaign anyway.

>Exalted 2e, mixed campaign
>My character joins the party later (as I joined the campaign later)
>She (my char) wasn't necessarily egotistical, but she didn't care much for others (we've all had our edgier phases, okay?)
>In our collective inventory we have a magical key and an orb with some moving mechanical parts (which was basically a Wyld bomb)
>My char is the only one who knows how to activate the key (fresh blood) and the orb.
>We're in the castle of the BBEG
>The plan is to set the bomb to detonate in 5 minutes and run (of course it was more complex than that, but the details don't matter)
>The time comes
>I nod at the GM
>He describes how my character sets the bomb, grabs the magic key, stabs some random servant with it, runs to a door, opens it with the said key and disappears
>The other players are just sitting there with the mouths open and stares at me
>GM: "The bomb goes off, the Wyld starts to manifest"
>Me: "I sat it at 20 seconds instead of 5 minutes"
>Other players start to yell and shout and throw dice at me
>I deserved it, but it was worth it

Of course their characters survived due to Wyld immunity or whatever. It was a fun thing to plot with the GM "against" the party, since it caused a minor plot twist and the GM felt he could work this to be some sort of cliffhanger conclusion of the campaign. I wouldn't do it just for the "lulz evils" though.

Oh! There were some in-char reasons to why she would do such a thing. Details are unnecessary, but she had other goals than the party (and the key could get her there and yadayadayada)

explain yourself! now!

>That character betrayed the party, won, and got away with it? Deal with it
>That character betrayed the party and got slaughtered? He has to deal with it
because neither must ever happen to (a) special snowflake PC(s)?

Our All evil pathfinder party is going to betray one of the other PC's. He has stated multiple times that he wants to start rebellions in the kingdom we been controlling for over a year. However our DM fucked us over and told the player we where going to betray and kill his character so we're not sure what to do now.

Did the DM tell him in front of you, or did you find out he'd squealed independantly?

If he doesn't know you know, make a blatantly obvious trap, then set another trap inside it.

If he does, frame him for crimes that will make him a pariah to whoever he's trying to incite into rebellion

Our DM Told him in secret but then the player just straight up confronted me about it knowing that my character was involved. I already confronted out DM on it. Infact out DM got pissed at the player for telling me that he knew despite the fact we told the DM not to say anything.

You must feel soooo smart, because the GM allowed you all that shit and actually played against the other players.

Once I was playing an imperial agent traitor. I've had mainly noble levels, so I've spent ridiculous amounts of cash on mercaneries that I've hired to kill the other PCs.
The party entirely consisted of the jedi knights, so at no point of the game my mooks were more than an annoyance. My traitorhood was never found out.

Jesus Christ, what a bundle of dicks.
youtube.com/watch?v=MhLqPfAylF4

See kids? This is why party betrayal is idiotic: it creates inter-party drama for absolutely no fucking good reason and it makes everyone feel angry.

Yeah to be honest the whole experience left me with a bad taste in my mouth and our same group was considering playing Black Crusade afterwords but that is just party betrayal the game. I even told our DM after this whole incident I wasn't comfortable with him DMing a game like that.

Sounds more like a terrible DM, not the betrayal being inherently bad.

There are so many better ways to handle that shit if you're not comfortable with the players doing it.

>There are so many better ways to handle that shit
I agree up to a certain point.

There are certain game with mechanics that hinge on inter-party conflict, like Paranoia. It says that in the name itself: players should be distrustful of each other and probably kill one another too, if they think they're probably going to get backstabbed.

But in other games, where you're supposed to play cooperatively, it's just a very dick move to backstab the party.

Especially if someone talks about it with the GM and he does whatever he can to make that guy succeeds, without giving the party chances to catch him red-handed and deal some justified PC Killing.

>There are so many better ways to handle that shit
Could you elaborate?

HEY!
You know what a REALLY SHITTY THING TO DO AS AN INDIVIDUAL IS?

Playing a completely different game to everybody else at the table!

You know what game they're here to play?
The game of co-operative storytelling, where you work together to construct an ongoing fantasy themed narrative, thats what.

You know what game YOU'RE here to play?
The game of "Fuck you, heres where I reveal my master plan and use out of character knowledge of the other players against them!"

You know why your character is fucking with them? Because they were stupid enough to think that you were playing the same co-operative game.

F*$% you.
F#$%%^ you.

Why?
Because in order to achieve your bullshit, which stars ONLY YOU, you had to lie to other players.

Not their characters, you had to lie to other players.

Because thats the only way you could TRICK them into willingly playing with you.

I am livid with antipathy for you.
Get out. Fuck off. Roleplaying doesn't want you. Go play D&D 5th ed with the rest of the casuals, and find out what its like being in a team of you arseholes.

You know that bit in Southpark, where Cartman goes "AHA!" to Kyle, who knew he was going to betray them?

They knew you were going to pull this shit, but they thought they'd give you the benefit of the doubt.

Well, well done, edgelord, you killed another game! Go fuck yourself you disruptive little POS.

I am so angry right now.

No need to be so anal about it :3

Couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo, user, bravo!

I never understood why people have a problem with evil characters. The cons are huge. Are most players too cowardly to kill the That Guy's character once he starts doing edgy shit or something?

>anal
That word does not mean what you think it means, user.

It creates unnecessary inter-party drama.

>You know what game they're here to play?
>The game of co-operative storytelling
Well, then they are morons. I came here to do some role-playing. In this case the role of a traitor.

That drama can be resolved in-game. Or are you telling me one edgelord can survive against 4+ other PCs?

It can be resolved IC, but you know that it won't be.

>Not their characters, you had to lie to other players.
Because the faggots would metagame otherwise.

>I am livid with antipathy for you.
Good.
>Roleplaying doesn't want you.
Cooperative storytelling has spoken, kek.
>I am so angry right now.
Excellent.

Care to remind me what is wrong with inter-party drama? Drama is good, isn't it?

It kind of depends I guess? If actual drama starts then some players shouldn't be in the group.

>F*$% you.
>F#$%%^ you.

Its a betrayal that ONLY occurs in the GAME WORLD because the PLAYERS were unlucky enough to be in a game with THAT GUY.

It only works because they made the single mistake of choosing to play with you.
You're playing a different game to everyone else, and it stars ONLY YOU, and is about having fun at their expense, because, OOC, they trusted you.

You expose only their mistake.

IC betrayals focus is on characters who are significant only because they have real, human players, in this universe.

Its not an in character goal, its an out of character goal to mess with other players, and its only achieved by being DISHONEST OUT OF CHARACTER ABOUT YOUR GOALS.
This makes YOU the liar and betrayer, not your character.

Why the fuck should anyone play with you?

Sounds like you got your wish.

And you told everyone else out of character that was your goal and they were okay with it?

No, you had to lie to the other players.
You missed the goddamn point, and you know what?
If they allow you at the table, they are morons.

Get the fuck out of my game, you edgelord spazz.

Its not roleplaying, its a power fantasy that NEEDS to involve other people for the masturbation action to have any excitement for you. Get your jollies elsewhere, and don't come back.

See, that's when the other players turn and have fun on That Guy's expense, instead of letting him have all the fun. Or are you just gonna sit there and let him do all that stuff?

Thats fine if thats the game that everybody at the table agrees to. You should know this.

If you fuck someone without their consent, you're a rapist.

>livid
livid means pale
It doesn't detract from your point, tho'

Actually, no, why should the gm ever allow That Guy to undermine or potentially party-wipe his campaign? We're back into the '4 people playing one game, and featuring That Guy's Power Fantasy That Intimately Involves Getting One Up On People That Shouldn't Be So Significant To His Character'.

Give me a reason why the 4 players should let you ruin the narrative of the campaign so you can have your 'I'm a betrayer' masturbation?

You have to go.

>F*$%

I agree, and I think the DM and the group should talk about if the want their game to be noblebright or grimdark or in between.

>If you fuck someone without their consent, you're a rapist.
Whooooa, calm down. Compating being an asshole in D&D with actual rape is pretty fucking dumb.

Not all campaigns rely on the bad premise that all characters will get out alive and everything will go according to dramaturgical rules, and even then it's probably more likely that That Guy gets his shit kicked in and has to sit being mad for 3 hours while everyone else is having fun.

Off the top of my head

1) work with the players to make the betrayal interesting enough that no mature player would get mad at it.
2) ask them to belay their plans and have a quiet words with the soon to be betrayed party, in order to make them realise how much of a dick they're being by sabotaging the group's efforts
3) flat out saying it's not happening, and say the same to the player bringing the betrayal down on his head

Encouraging Metagaming to one party via information told in confidence is just about the worst way he could possibly have handled it.

I had my hand forced once to betray the party.

I was a LN Wizard who valued the rule of law as a structuring force to the world.

The rest of the party was a TN alchemist, a TN Fighter, and a NE Cleric. However they all three acted CE. I was forced to deal with them because my character didn't think just leaving the party would be responsible because they were a bunch of sociopathic murderers. I actually worked with the GM and worked with in setting authorities to do a string operation on them.

Because god damn they were evil.

yeah, but you're that guy, because you couldn't work it out with them ooc.

Think of it this way;
You CHOSE to prioritize roleplaying an arbitrary character trait (THAT YOU HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OVER) over and above whatever story the gm and the other 3 had planned.

You lied (by omission) to the other players about what you were up to, or you would have done it openly, ooc.

You betrayed your allies, which is the very example of an evil act, on its own.

Your actions ARE justified. But they're oocly dishonest to the other players, and thats why you're the jerk.

I totally understand, but the principle remains. You had complete control, and you could have made your character compatible, rather than INCOMPATIBLE with the team, which is the origional, overarching idea here.

Or it should be.

Technically they betrayed me, I just had prepared some precautions for the eventuality. Also it was Black Crusade, so certain degree of in party distrust is to be expected.

I don't care what bodily fluids or body parts your Dark Gods demand in tribute. You're not raising hand against man's hard-earned pet and expect there to be no consequences.

I could have made my character compatible from the getgo if their information was correct. I would even have been fine with a NE character.

I was essentially lied to because they did not have the alignments of the kind of folk who kick babies because they thought it was funny, and my character couldn't just suddenly become evil. I preferred to work as the character in the situation he found himself in.

And if I had told them the sting operation wouldn't have ever worked.

I understand what you're saying, but if the rest of the party turns out to be evil despite what I was told I will try and correct this is some manner.

My only option was to have clairvoyant that they were all actually CE or to drop the character when it became apparent despite what the character would have done.

>You betrayed your allies, which is the very example of an evil act, on its own.
>betraying sociopathic murderers is evil

I'm genuinely curious how you came to this conclusion.

Ignoring her fear of saying fuck on the internet, this girl got the right idea.

Being "le backstabby mastermind" is selfish and tends to crash parties. It's pure self-indulgent faggotry. Anyone who thinks this is cool is pretty immature in my eyes.

Would it be fair then to say that, in part, the problem WAS ooc, and could have been solved that way too?
I mean, I see no reason to disbelieve anything you say, and don't doubt you in the slightest.

... But it has to do with agreed-upon-team-ethos, which was sort of 'hammered out through trial and error' of the 80s and 90s gaming eras.

Doesn't count for Dark Heresy of course, though the only campaign in that setting that seems to make sense to me is "YAAAAARRGH!!!" Tale of the Chaos Warband....

(Where, Ironically, Everyone has a Reason To Work Together (the Imperium), and either suspicion, or in fact vocal confirmation that all the other players WANT to betray them for power, but its just not convenient or profitable right now. Kaaaoss eeezz stroooonnngk!)

C'mon. Say it with us...

In this example, they WERE INDEED your allies.

You can make moral arguments, but the Moral Extremes (at least in D&D, some versions) literally do not care, and its about the letter of the Law (TM).

It doesn't matter if you betrayed the Devil himself, you still -betrayed- him. Thats a corruption point, secretly noted, in my games at least.

I'm not saying its the wrong thing to do either... but betrayal is what it is.... or is theft for good intentions somehow no longer theft, by way of analogy? We're now discussing the difference between chaos and law, on the topic of good, I think.

I need to post more.

I once ditched the entire group by driving off with a pickup truck, leaving them running for their lives from eldritch monsters after they justified trying to murder me for getting angry at the cowardly guy who always leaves us for dead.

When I say "getting angry" I mean "raising my voice and calling hima dickhead" and nothing else.

>and its about the letter of the Law (TM).
And that contradicts itself when you consider that some interpretations would consider inaction against personal preventable evil to be an evil act itself, and would certainly consider it a good act to prevent the spread of evil.

It honestly sounds like you're hiding behind interpretations you prefer in order to hinder a playstyle you don't like.
Nothing wrong with having personal interpretations and valuing certain aspects over others, of course, but that's something you really ought to make clear to your players, since I'm fairly sure a large proportion of people who consider themselves good wouldn't think twice about backstabbing Satan.

This, this so much.

A player in my group tried to pull a betrayal once where he intended to job and lose at the very end. And he still almost made us all hate him for a very long time.

The betrayal never happened because the GM tpk'd us before it could happen.

Betrayal is betrayal is betrayal.
Lies beget lies, and Evil makes evil.

You're wrong by the way.
Discussing Inaction against preventable evil
IS MOVING THE GOALPOSTS OF DISCUSSION.

We're having a conversation about if Betrayal, specifically (as far as I'm concerned) in D&D, is, on its own, good, evil or nuetral.

Guess which one I'm backing.

You want me to be the voice of some, stick in the mud, arbitrary, letter of the law lawful good deity?

Fine. Heres what I think they'd say.
You used evils methods, for good reasons. Your intentions may have been noble, but your actions were not. Your paladin must atone, for not finding a way to vanquish evil without compromising what is supposed to be good.
The trash heap has spoken.

I kinda betrayed our party in a short DnD campaign

We had picked up a stray waif of a girl that the fighter and ranger took under their wings (the characters were a couple unable to conceive as the ranger was barren). My warlock managed to sway the girl to see the ways of my master and "volunteer" herself to become my first step towards becoming immortal. My master demanded i slay a innocent life and i essentially stockholm-syndromed the girl into hating the fighter-ranger pair and wanting to be my sacrifice when the fighter-ranger pair were busy with other stuff.

Yes it was That Guy-ish but since it was kind of a pre-story campaign for our upcoming campaign i felt i could act out a bit of classic evil. My warlock eventually showed up in our regular campaign as a warlock-variant of a lich, and the fighter-ranger pair ended up running a orphanage and taking care of kids in need.

NTR is a shit fetish. That is all.

Livid can also be used to describe being angry, as a shortened version of 'livid with rage'.

A big problem with party betrayals is that it forces players who don't want to deal with them to treat everyone as an enemy, unless you want your fun ruined.

Do you really want to spend the entire game expecting your friends to rain all over your parade?

Because real life betrayals start with telling everyone that they're going to betray everyone. Get over yourself, you wet noodle pussy bitch. Go back to tumblr. Christ.

Roleplaying means playing a role. If that role is a traitor, so be it. Getting angry OoC because your pwesus pwesus chawactah got ded is baby tier kindergarten shit. Either that, or you're fucking mentally unstable. No matter which of those, I would never allow you into a game I played because you'd probably flip out and try to stab someone or shoot up a school when your beloved mary sue piece of shit got killed by someone else's character.

Cry some more, it's all you're good for.

I am the wizard. I don't care if it was good or evil. I was LN.

THIS. THIS. A THOUSAND TIMES THIS.

You other guys go be 'free' somewhere else.

>Autism the post
>Making a good point is moving the goalposts
>EVERYTHING IS BLACK AND WHITE

And this, children, is why Alignment systems are trash. It lets people like THIS waste of oxygen have an excuse to be secret robot infiltrators.

No, you ignoramus,

Your betrayal is IC,
your LIES are OOC in their basis.
You are, in the REAL WORLD lying to the other players.

Go on, find me players that want to play with LYING players by preference.
Ill wait.

Your reading comprehension is poor, or you are INCAPABLE of separating IC from OOC.

If the ONLY WAY you can pull of your GENUIS AND TOTALLY UNFORSEEN public masturbation, sorry, BETRAYAL, is by LYING BOTH IN AND OUT OF CHARACTER, then, perhaps, its not quite as genius as you think.

>If that role is a traitor, so be it.
Thats not the role that we agreed upon at all.

>I would never allow you into a game
I told you already to get the hell out of MY game. Now you're just copying me.

You have to go.

>Go on, find me players that want to play with LYING players by preference.
Actually most people I play with would rather you lie by omission if you had secrets IC. They don't want you spoiling it.

What kind of people are you playing with?

Look, I already told you to go be free somewhere else. We don't want you.

You have to go.

Let me preface this by saying that I have a policy of kicking any party traitors. Before I do that, I will make sure that character meets a humiliating end accomplishing nothing.

But you're coming off as ass-mangled and probably making the rest of us come off as equally ass pained, calm the fuck down.

>Actually most people I play with would rather you lie by omission if you had secrets IC. They don't want you spoiling it.

Most people write character secrets that don't lead to two months of sessions ending on a sour note.

This is some legit buttmad and autism.

You want people to spoil all their secrets? Lying OOC by omission is essentially required for some character's arcs, whether they have to do with betrayal or not.

>Most people write character secrets that don't lead to two months of sessions ending on a sour note.
I mean sure, you can try. I worked with the GM in order to make this go off well and talked with him about it. If the GM just flat out said "no don't do that" I would have probably handed my character in because there was no way he would stick with the party unless he was attempting to bring them to justice.

As someone who I was betraying you can try, if you succeed then awesome I have no problem with that. It's part of roleplay. Honestly if you take IC actions personally then there are serious problems. Me and my character are different people, him trying to bring you to justice doesn't mean I'm not still friends with you or want to play. If I didn't want to play with someone I wouldn't spite them by setting up some kind of elaborate "ruin the fun" mechanism. I would just leave.

>badwrong fun is bad and wrong
>"You have to go."

Welcome to Veeky Forums, user. I won't be your guide. The exit's up and to the right.

Kind of hard to play the traitor if everyone knows you're it.

Those shits will metagame murder you on S1.

>Because real life betrayals start with telling everyone that they're going to betray everyone.
Not him but what the shit is your problem?

>Roleplaying means playing a role. If that role is a traitor, so be it.
What the fuck? If you're playing Paranoia, maybe. If you're playing Werewolf, maybe. But if you're playing a COOPERATIVE GAME like D&D, where the group has to stick together to kill mobs and shit... and you betray them: you are That Guy. You're the shitlord that has to stand in the spotlight, acting like the main character and go
>"I am so much better than you, I managed to trick you all -thanks to the GM who let me- and you all are so stupid for believing in me! What a bunch of idiots!"

If you're a fucking traitor, I will personally make a character that will dwarf pun-pun by miles and shit all over your next character because that's what traitors do. And you brought this on yourself.

>Me and my character are different people, him trying to bring you to justice doesn't mean I'm not still friends with you or want to play.

It's nothing personal... kid... heh but that doesn't make it any less aggravating. We're all here dedicating three to five hours every week to tell this story. And I personally do not enjoy NTR, that simple.

If my game ends in what is essentially NTR, but instead of a fat bald guy stealing my wife. It's your character prematurely ending the story or foiling our plan to defeat the BBEG, because you felt the BBEG's cause was just? I'm gonna feel I wasted those two months we ran this game, and would rather have just known it would be this kind of game so I could bow out and play in a different one.

Yes, people find it hard to kill their friends, even if their friends are doing bad things.

I can see that. I personally disagree, if it happens to me I don't mind. Betrayals are narratively exciting, especially well executed ones. Suddenly pivoting and having what you thought was safety turn not is exciting.

I've had it happen to me, it was super cool because we had a moment of "you enemy is right here" when we were fighting on of the BBEG's lieutenants.

People seem find when NPCs betray the party (at least I don't think anyone here is angry about that), but when a player does it the act suddenly can't fit into a narrative even if he worked with the GM.

Took some build-up.

>As someone who I was betraying you can try, if you succeed then awesome I have no problem with that.
People like you are the reason I always make my characters paranoid, with maxed out insight, perception and, if available, with mind reading abilities.

>Oh, how can I make this game more about me and how great I am? I know! I will kill all the other characters, that way I won't have to share the spotlight. And before I kill them, I will make sure to humiliate them as much as I can to show off how smart and macchiavellian I am.

Traitors should be sodomized with a rusty machete.

You honestly can't be a real person.

>Betrayals are narratively exciting, especially well executed ones.

Most game betrayals, including the kind discussed in this game are the ones that focus on the 'epic master plan' sort. They are never executed well, because if you had the capacity to execute them? You'd be on Wall Street, in big government or working with the intelligence community.

You know, the xanatos gambit where the outcome usually happens shortly after execution. At which point usually the game ends.

If someone wants to play the turncloak and then turn their character into an antagonist at some point as an unexpected development, that's just fine with me. Just don't turn it into NTR.

>your LIES are OOC in their basis.
>You are, in the REAL WORLD lying to the other players.
i told you before, you giant douchebag, that this is because the other players are metagaming faggots that are guaranteed to thwart all my plans based on "hunches" they suddenly got out of nowhere.

>They are never executed well, because if you had the capacity to execute them? You'd be on Wall Street, in big government or working with the intelligence community.
I have personally both seen it well executed and been the one to execute it well.

The last one that was done to me involved another player apparently being the one funding street gangs.

I mean hey, if you think it can never be executed well how to GMs do it? Not everyone is terrible at planning, some people actually can do it well and didn't go into politics. You're just taking things to an extreme to try and justify your position.

>People like you are the reason I always make my characters paranoid, with maxed out insight, perception and, if available, with mind reading abilities.
No the thing is that's perfectly fine. I am fine both with being betrayed and doing the betraying if it's narratively appropriate and adds to the overall story. Or if for some reason I am forced to play with people I hate, and for some reason can not leave, I may do it out of spite (again I would be much happier to just leave).

>People seem find when NPCs betray the party
Yes, because all players have the mentality
>'The GM is in full control of the game and wants to make it fun for everyone.'

They trust the GM to make decisions that will make the game more fun.

If a PC betrays the party, it's usually a cheap way to show off how great the player is and a shit way to stroke the main-character mental stiffy that most traitorous shitstains have.

I only find betrayal acceptable if the party KNOWS that the player character has a certain personality and holds certain beliefs dear that the group as a whole is going against. The PC has some legitimate grievances with the party, such as "The nobles might have a good point, but this war is really fucking over the poor peasants. I should do something about it, even at the cost of fighting my companions"

They have to have a _good_ reason to be a turncoat, not just
>Oh hey, the villain pays more and gives me a better career path and even dental if I join him: see you later suckers

Or the more reviled
>it's what my character would do
when he turns to the aforementioned villain to be his contracted trusty liutenant because he is a fucking greedy jew son of a bitch. Those are abysmal.

>COOPERATIVE GAME like D&D
D&D is first of all a roleplaying game. Coop mode seems to be kinda standard but it's by no means mandatory.

>No the thing is that's perfectly fine. I am fine both with being betrayed and doing the betraying if it's narratively appropriate and adds to the overall story.
You probably wouldn't be fine with being betrayed if the traitor that attacked and killed your character with a lucky crit did so just because
>hurr, I wanted your shiny
or
>you said something mean, now you have to pay, shithead

Because that's what most traitorous assholes do.

99,9% of betrayals in RPGs suck big fat cocks, with a 0,9% margin of error. I would really enjoy seeing a betrayal that actually makes the game fun and enjoyable, but in all my time on Veeky Forums and suptg I haven't read a single story with a betrayal well-made!

>If a PC betrays the party, it's usually a cheap way to show off how great the player is and a shit way to stroke the main-character mental stiffy that most traitorous shitstains have.
You seem to have more of a problem with shitty players than betrayal itself.

>I only find betrayal acceptable if the party KNOWS that the player character has a certain personality and holds certain beliefs dear that the group as a whole is going against. The PC has some legitimate grievances with the party, such as "The nobles might have a good point, but this war is really fucking over the poor peasants. I should do something about it, even at the cost of fighting my companions"
See and this is why someone should betray, not just to get their jollies. Unless their CE, then they should just do it for the jollies because they are actually sociopathic.

>They have to have a _good_ reason to be a turncoat, not just
The reason we were discussing was a LN wizard stuck with three people who turned out to be CE and kicked babies for fun, and who worked with authorities to have them arrested.

>>hurr, I wanted your shiny
>or
>>you said something mean, now you have to pay, shithead
Yeah I wouldn't because neither of these are narratively exciting.

>99,9% of betrayals in RPGs suck big fat cocks, with a 0,9% margin of error. I would really enjoy seeing a betrayal that actually makes the game fun and enjoyable, but in all my time on Veeky Forums and suptg I haven't read a single story with a betrayal well-made!

I mean I have a few, the last cool time I was betrayed is something I mentioned already involving a party member secretly funding organized crime.

>it's another "evil character always = party betrayal!!!" episode
I fucking hate this show

In this case we were talking about a LN character betraying CE party members.